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Protestant Fragmentation, Orthodox Disagreement Slow Ecumenical Progress, Says Vatican Cardinal
Catholic Culture ^ | 4/22/13

Posted on 04/23/2013 6:36:57 AM PDT by marshmallow

The Vatican has reached agreement with the Lutheran World Federation on a joint statement to be released for the 500th anniversary of Martin Luther’s theses, the president of the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity has disclosed.

The joint document will be released in June, Cardinal Kurt Koch told Austrian interviewers. In a candid exchange, the cardinal also spoke of some of the main obstacles to ecumenical progress. He listed the continued fragmentation of Protestant groups and the failure of Orthodox leaders to reach their own mutual understanding on the question of primacy.

(Excerpt) Read more at ...

TOPICS: Catholic; Ecumenism; Mainline Protestant; Orthodox Christian

1 posted on 04/23/2013 6:36:57 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow

Not surprised.

2 posted on 04/23/2013 7:24:13 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: All
Cardinal Kurt Koch...spoke of some of the main obstacles to ecumenical progress. He listed the continued fragmentation of Protestant groups and the failure of Orthodox leaders to reach their own mutual understanding on the question of primacy.

It's always the other guys' fault.

3 posted on 04/23/2013 8:33:32 AM PDT by Alex Murphy ("If you are not firm in faith, you will not be firm at all" - Isaiah 7:9)
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To: Alex Murphy
It's always the other guys' fault.


4 posted on 04/28/2013 1:19:16 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Alex Murphy
I think I see what you mean. Not that this is exactly it, but they whine about scattered "protestant groups" and not being able to "come to agreement", but over-and-over, what does that mean but for anybody dialoguing with Rome, to accept all Rome continues to assert as Rome's unchallengeable claims for it's own magnificence, at the expense of all others (and doctrinal differences, too) even the very ones they are at some moment or another dialoguing with?

Give 'em an inch, rhetorical cavalry charge to take a mile soon follows...

Mind games, word games, invites, smiles, intimidation, more smiles, more words with all sorts of freighted meanings, dripping with further implications, manipulation city to thE MAX ---- all relentlessly pressed forward, never themselves giving an inch, if that inch cannot be rhetorically taken back, undone by the language and wording adopted right after it is offered in "discussion". Sign here.

It's plays out on this forum, at times in an all lovey-dovey, "Come Home little lost sheep" invite, but the kindly ministrations of Rome are anything but tender, as not only history shows, but the spirit evident in how more than a few of the most frequent usual RC participants here treat others, with those who were formerly RC but have left and whom now dare criticise, continually singled out for all sorts of rudeness and finessing of the rules, as they "get personal", in violation of spirit and letter of our own local forum code of conduct.

Are you certain you can't be talked into drilling holes in your head/committing ecclesiastical suicide?

Aaah, the tender mercies of Rome. What would Christianity be without such magnanimous willingness on their part, to even allow others to beg for mercy from enter into ecumenical dialogue them?

One of Wycliffe’s followers, John Hus, actively promoted Wycliffe’s ideas: that people should be permitted to read the Bible in their own language, and they should oppose the tyranny of the Roman church that threatened anyone possessing a non-Latin Bible with execution. Hus was burned at the stake in 1415, with Wycliffe’s manuscript Bibles used as kindling for the fire. [among] The last words of John Hus were that, “in 100 years, God will raise up a man whose calls for reform cannot be suppressed.” Almost exactly 100 years later, in 1517, Martin Luther nailed his famous 95 Theses of Contention (a list of 95 issues of heretical theology and crimes of the Roman Catholic Church) into the church door at Wittenberg. The prophecy of Hus had come true!

5 posted on 04/28/2013 2:46:39 PM PDT by BlueDragon
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To: BlueDragon
Are you certain you can't be talked into drilling holes in your head/committing ecclesiastical suicide?

Funny that you should describe it in those words...

6 posted on 04/28/2013 3:03:51 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("If you are not firm in faith, you will not be firm at all" - Isaiah 7:9)
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To: BlueDragon

Many of my mother’s people belonged to the Moravians, the Unitas Fratrum, Hussites, a church formed in the late thirteenth century. I’ve always understood the last words of Jan Hus as asking God to forgive his tormentors, not a prophecy of Luther. Luther was quite taken with the writings of Hus, so there is a connection but I question the veracity of this prophecy. Can you provide a source?

7 posted on 04/28/2013 3:07:06 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: RegulatorCountry; Alex Murphy; HarleyD
I copied from, and there seems better custodial sourcing/accounting, with different wording here for it mentions the differently worded quote attributed to being referenced by Luther, naming where it can be found --- which I'm going to guess(?) has fair historical establishment for accuracy as for being in his written works, albeit with some demurral or claim recounted at Beggars All, that it is claimed by one historian(?)Robert Scribner, that Luther mangled two quotes (or had someone hand him the combined quotes that he himself did not question authenticity, I wonder), but then there is also the letter of Poggius Florentini to his friend Leonhard Nikolai which I'll link to more directly and quote, after the following:

From Beggars All;

Here's a typical account of the last moments of John Hus, before being burned by the Roman Catholic Council of Constance: On July 6, 1415, as John Hus (whose name means "goose" in his native Czech) made his way to the place of execution, the authorities made him pass by a bonfire where his books were burning. Hus was unafraid and predicted the Protestant Reformation with almost uncanny accuracy. Some of his last words were: You are going to burn a goose but in a century you will have a swan which you can neither roast nor boil. [source]

This "Swan" of this statement has popularly been interpreted to be Martin Luther, not to mention, even by Luther himself:

However, I, Dr. Martinus, have been called to this work and was compelled to become a doctor, without any initiative of my own, but out of pure obedience. Then I had to accept the office of doctor and swear a vow to my most beloved Holy Scriptures that I would preach and teach them faithfully and purely. While engaged in this kind of teaching, the papacy crossed my path and wanted to hinder me in it. How it has fared is obvious to all, and it will fare still worse. It shall not hinder me. In God’s name and call I shall walk on the lion and the adder, and tread on the young lion and dragon with my feet. And this which has been begun during my lifetime will be completed after my death. St. John Huss prophesied of me when he wrote from his prison in Bohemia, “They will roast a goose now (for ‘Huss’ means ‘a goose’), but after a hundred years they will hear a swan sing, and him they will endure.” And that is the way it will be, if God wills. [LW 34:103]

Now from what is alleged to the second letter of Poggias to Leonard Nikolai more directly;

"In thee, O Lord, I put my trust,
Bow down thine ear to me."

With such Christian prayers, Hus arrived at the stake, looking at it without fear. He climbed upon it, after two assistants of the hangman had torn his clothes from him and had clad him into a shirt drenched with pitch. At this moment the elector of the Palatinate, Ludewig, rode up and prayed Hus with fervor to recant, so that he might be spared a death in the flames. But Hus replied: "To-day you will roast a lean goose but hundred years from now you will hear a swan sing, whom you will leave unroasted and no trap or net will catch him for you." Full of pity and filled with much admiration, the Prince turned away. Then the hangman seized moistened ropes, tied the victims hands and feet backward to the stake, squeezed oil-drenched wool between his limbs and the stake and emptied so much oil over his head that it dripped from his beard and he was heard to pray: "Lord Zebaoth! take this sin from them!" After that the fagots were lighted, at six or more places, but they did not burn, because there was too much wool everywhere. Not a breath of air was stirring and the tied man had to wait in fear of death for half an hour, until the smoke started to envelop him. An old man, almost eighty years of age, carried a bundle of fagots to the stake, lit them and laid them at poor Hus' feet, saying: That you may depart to hell sooner, I bring you this bundle, arch-heretic! Whereupon Hus cried out: "Oh holy simplicity!" A thick, stinking smoke billowed and enveloped the unhappy man in black clouds, out of which he was heard to call three times: "Jesus Christ, thou Son of the living God, have mercy upon me!" After that he became still, the smoke settled and Hus became again visible to all eyes, but his head had sunk to his chest and he had died before a flame had touched him. Two hours later his body had been cremated, after which the ashes were shoveled together, placed into the skin of a steer and then were cast, with jubilations, into the Rhine.

I wanted to acquaint you with this story of an heretic, my dear Nikolai, so that you might know how much fortitude of faith Hus had shown before his enemies and how blissful, in his faith, this pious man's end had been. Verily, I say unto you, he was too just for this world!

The Holy Trinity may guard and keep you. This is the wish of your devoted Poggius.
Written on the day of Calixtus, in October 1415. [emphasis added]

Which leaves only verification that this was indeed Poggius' letter or writing, and that it has existed prior to Luther. It seems to me that if existence of this written work were to be established well enough prior to Luther, that would close off any doubt...and if I were looking, and able to read German, Italian, Czech, etc., chain-of-custody sort of thing is what I would look into.

Available online in German, possibly could contain it, and give a source. The rest of my digging around just now, led me to no easily verifiable primary library references, but then I do get distracted. <8^)

Here's a FR thread from Nov. 2005 The History of the Reformation…The Goose That Became a Swan…John Huss

Oh I know I
Lived this life before

Aerosmith Kings and Queens

8 posted on 04/28/2013 7:14:28 PM PDT by BlueDragon (Somehow I know now Truths I must be sure Tossin' turnin' nightmaresburnin' Dreams of swords in hand)
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To: BlueDragon
I understand the provenance of goose references in historical accounts and popular idiom. I understand that Hus made quite an impression upon Luther posthumously via his surviving writings. I even understand that some regard the swan symbol of the Lutheran Church as being a tribute of sorts.

I've just not encountered the claim of a prophecy being the dying words of Jan Hus, despite having family belonging to the church that was and is in many ways his legacy. So, I hope you understand my questioning the veracity of the claim. It was in no way directed at you personally.

Thank you for the kind reply with ample sourcing, I'll research the matter further. It's a fascinating thing if so, on a par with Tyndale asking God to open the eyes of the King of England under the same circumstance.

9 posted on 04/28/2013 7:42:24 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: RegulatorCountry
You are quite welcome. The prophecy was alleged to be among his dying words. Not the last gasps, which I feel must be again covered, although I did include an added [among] to the original description of his last words. Too many "religiosity" word-game lawyers around here, it's like I have to make efforts to head off the marginal type of argument, before it arrives. I do tire of it.
10 posted on 04/28/2013 8:10:51 PM PDT by BlueDragon (Living other centuries Dejavu or what youplease Follows true toall who do or die Screams of no reply)
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To: BlueDragon
I'm not splitting hairs. I've been unaware of a prophecy attributed to Jan Hus while being burned at the stake. I'll research the matter further. There is a fairly extensive archive maintained by the church not too far from me. Occasional visiting Czech exchange groups, even outreach from Eastern Orthodox. They all have a certain interest in the subject and would likely know more than I would know. Thanks again.
11 posted on 04/28/2013 8:23:51 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: RegulatorCountry

Ah, the “tiring” of it business, was not aimed towards you at all...but towards the general atmosphere around here, although few much trouble me that much any longer, since it’s as likely to just blow up in their faces, as not.

12 posted on 04/28/2013 8:36:45 PM PDT by BlueDragon (Living other centuries Dejavu or what youplease Follows true toall who do or die Screams of no reply)
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To: Alex Murphy

I have a good memory, it wasn't random, and I knew you would remember too. But now, more from the 2nd letter of Poggius, somewhat more random, starting nearer the top, for the previously blockquoted was from the bottom of that page.

When the clock struck eight, Hus rose in his prison and walked to the church as erect as his stength permitted, scantily garbed, accompanied by Wenceslaus of Duba and the Count Chlum, followed by the warden. At the church they found fifty-six clerical gentlemen, two procurators and several scribes, seated at special tables, also eleven witnesses, who soon after Hus' arrival, were sworn to the truth of their testimony. It so happened, while the oaths were taken, that one of the witnesses relented, because his conscience tortured him. He declared publicly that he had permitted himself to be bribed to give false testimony for a sum of money which he had been in need of. Quickly the repentent witness was ordered away with the death sentence: "Hang a stone about the neck of the perjurer and cast him into the water outside of the town where it is deepest!" And soon the bidding of the fathers was obeyed, the unfortunate man was dragged upon the bridge and cast over the railing so that he drowned. After that, peace reigned at the church assembly as if no human life had been taken, although the executors of the terrible sentence called loudly and proudly through the portals: "The beast of an heretic has already gone to hell, into the Rhine!" After that Hus was clothed with a priestly garb by which act it was indicated to him that only in this garb he was being adjudged worthy of being addressed. Then he had to stand upon a newly fashioned platform which had been erected in the middle of the nave. First, the persecuted priest wanted to make complaints against his enemies, who had incarcerated him for eight moons, in spite of an Imperial safe conduct, Royal promise of freedom and Bohemian-Moravian aristocratic convoy; but the fathers, as well as the Cardinal Legate, forbade him, by the power of their office, every complaint and demanded only an answer of yes or no to the questions which the council had found to be in order. Hus listened attentively to them, answered twenty-nine in the negative and one he answered firmly and with well-worded oration in the positive. Among the reported questions, however, were such of inconsequent accusations, which the accused refuted with calm collection and manly strength, but to the doubtful witnesses from many lands, was given more credence than to the prisoner from Bohemia. A great tumult arose among the fathers through the report that Hus, after he had left Prague on account of the ban, was to have said to Cardinal de Columna, who had ordered him to come to Rome: "What sort of obedience is that to be, that I, as an unknown, wrongfully accused person, should travel three hundred miles, through so many adversaries, to my enemies who are to be judges, witnesses and everything else at the same time? Shall I permit myself to be dragged down in the consistory, forget my belief in God, unlearn my patience and, if I could not pay a bribe, be adjudged guilty in the most righteous matter, yes, and what's more, to worship the Pope on my knees as a God and crawl to him on my knees? No, I'd rather give the Roman upon the chair of Petrus a box on the ears, so that he would remember it for a hundred years." Item: "Pope John is a shameful beast and the actual anti-Christ, because he has started an unjust war, for the sake of his desires, against King Ladislaus of Naples; he permits indulgences to be sold to murderers, thieves, perjurers and all those who help him with their possessions, blood, money or hired soldiers," Item: "No solace is John for erring children, but a shameful murderer, because upon his command, the rascally archbishop Sbynko at Prague had caused the bloody death of three men there. For which God immediately punished Sbynko, by having a wild pig slit him open in such a manner that his guts were hanging out and none remained within his fat belly, and this just at the moment when he, as prosecutor of heretics, was on the way to see the Emperor Sigismund in my case and that of the preacher Jacobus Misnensis." These and other accusations Hus did not deny at all, but he tried to prove what he really had said at all times. But now he was being loudly denounced, cursed and condemned in many tongues, so that he could not talk any longer and remained silent when Michael de Causis, in raving excitement, jumped before him and called threateningly with uplifted fists: "Now we have you in our power, from which you shall not escape until you have paid with your last farthing! And burnt you shall be, even if your thin bones have cost us so much money." He, who was thus silenced, had to take off his priestly garb again, after which they made fun of him, calling him derisively "goose-head," since "goose" is supposed to mean "hus" in the Bohemian tongue, and he was led away to his small chamber. The aged chamberlain Erlo followed him sadly.

"The beast of an heretic has already gone to hell, into the Rhine!". They were so proud of themselves.

Some aspects don't change, the subject matter itself, the reaction we get to our own resistance to the over-inflated pig-headedness of Romish thought, etc. Jon Hus --- a reformation forerunner & hero. Burned him alive, except by all accounts he died before the flames actually reached him. At least the open murders over these sort of things has changed for the better (well, since Rome can't get away with it any more) --- unless we ask some of our Trad FRiends here, whom think everything was so much better way back when...and blame the present ills of the world on Luther and the Reformers, like men were not fully capable of being totally depraved except for those not totally without the light even then.

13 posted on 04/28/2013 8:37:36 PM PDT by BlueDragon (....They died........ Screams of no reply........ And died........ Lordy, Lordy, they died)
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