Posted on 04/29/2013 4:18:02 AM PDT by markomalley
Yes, faith is a conscious act - one of receiving and believing what God has revealed and given to us. Scripture, however, makes clear that faith is NOT a work in the sense of our own efforts. Verses such as Romans 4:5, "And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness." as well as others differentiate our works from belief/faith.
I do not disagree that a genuine faith WILL be demonstrated in good works, but that is a far cry from saying our works are necessary for salvation or, as NL insisted, enable us to retain the grace necessary for salvation. Grace is the gift of God that gives us eternal life in heaven through the atonement of Christ. We receive this gift by faith and the works we do afterward are the sign of true sanctification. We are justified by faith APART from works. For we account a man to be justified by faith, without the works of the law. (Romans 3:28)
That is yet another mischaracterization of my statements. For the record I NEVER said that works are necessary to achieve or keep Salvation or in anyway enable us to retain Salvation or Sanctifying Grace. I do so wish you would drop that anti-Catholic canard. Whoever taught you that did you, the Church, Protestantism, and God a great disservice.
Peace be with you.
The salvation of EVERYONE will be judged by the Holy Spirit inspired Word of God. Those who are already saved have heard and obeyed.
And those Scriptures are for everyone to learn from. No one can say they didn't know. And JESUS said those words - as did the good prophet of God, Isaiah.
not by any quiz administered and graded by members of fringe Protestant sects on the internet.
It is not a quiz but an open Book answer that warns 'man made teachings' are from false teachers that deceive their subjects/flock.
You can call me whatever makes you feel better in torment as those Scriptures are NOT my words but The Words of JESUS that are being rebuked KNOWINGLY.
So Catholics, Mormons, Muslims and all those under man made teachings DO KNOW where their eternal destination is and it is not with Jesus for eternity. They knowingly are on the road to destruction by entering the wide gate.
OK< you have my attention, (that is why you insist on all CAPS, isn't it?). Why then don't you take this opportunity to explain to me exactly what the Word, as used by St. John in his gospel, really is and how that differs from Catholic teaching.
Peace and blessings be with you
Ignoring what JESUS says about 'man made teachings'?
Being hell bent on 'man made teachings' is not a place to start.
That does not even attempt to answer my question. I asked what the Word actually is. Surely you have to admit that its understanding is essential since St. John went to great lengths in his Gospel to introduce us to the term.
And when you have done that tell me how that differs from Catholic teachings. We can explore the phrase "man made teachings" that you use so frequently, no doubt borrowed from anti-Catholic websites, without explanation at a later time.
Peace be to you
Oh, please! Just stop with that foolishness. You are acting like spilled mercury from a broken thermometer! Can't pin you down, can't get you to say what you really mean, can't get you to defend the statements you DO make, even. I DO so wish you would drop the anti-Protestant canard that pretends the whole Reformation was simply a big misunderstanding and the Reformers were the ones who got it wrong. Here is what you previously said:
Works do, however, have an efficacious effect on Grace which is an input to Salvation. As the Holy Spirit is the manifestation op the love between the Father and the Son, Grace is the manifestation of the love between God and man. Agape is the sharing of that Grace / love, with each other. Passing on the Grace we receive, through corporeal and spiritual works of mercy, is the only way we can cooperate with and retain the Grace God gives us freely.
Now, explain to me - and anyone else who is scratching their heads wondering the same thing - how that is not saying "works enable us to retain the grace necessary for salvation". Can you do that?
That is what catholic and mormons teachings are! I need to 'borrow' that phrase? LOL! Besides I don't go to anti-catholic-mormon websites - I remain with God's Word.
"Ignoring what JESUS says about 'man made teachings'?"....That does not even attempt to answer my question.
It SHOULD answer all your questions! 'Man made teachings' are from bad fruit. Why do you choose to dwell in it?
Looking for 'loopholes' to satisfy yourself IN SPITE OF Jesus having already spoken is just you continuing in deception KNOWINGLY and I will have no part of that.
Since you have already rejected a discussion of the differences between Sanctifying and Actual Grace no explanation is possible. And to avoid further misrepresentation of my statements please do not attempt to reword them into Reformationist jargon. They stand on their own.
Peace be with you
You continue to argue what the Word is not. Please now try to tell me what the Word is. Thank you.
Jesus is LOVE and LOVE is teaching and warning the hypocrites that what they are taught through 'man made teachings' do not produce a heart for HIM and their praise of Him is in vain. There is no greater LOVE as Jesus died for those hypocrites but evil/man came to deceive them.
No doubt that God is love and is loved. The Father loves the Son and the Son the Father and the love shared between them is the Holy Spirit. Similarly, the love God has for us is Grace, and our love of God is latria. All have specific and deep meanings. But to say that Jesus is love expresses an understanding or concept of the Trinity that begs further explanation. Please elaborate.
That said, you still have not told me what St. John was telling us in the opening of hid Gospel when he referred to Jesus as the Word.
Peace and blessings
I didn't reject the discussion, in fact, I quoted Ludwig Ott in the use of those words. Did you skip that part?
Apparently your statements do not "stand on their own" since every attempt I have made to pin down exactly what is meant by the buzzwords/jargon you use, I have been met with yet another anti-Protestant canard that accuses me of distorting, misusing or rewording wrongly whatever it is you are trying to communicate. Do you think that continuing to repeat the same phrase gets us any closer to understanding you? What is wrong exactly with my interpretation of your words? Try to be specific since, obviously, we are talking past each other - unless you just enjoy the opportunity to patronize and ridicule.
The Holy Spirit is the 'Spirit' of God. The THREE are ONE.
Now get back to what Jesus says to the hypocrites. Jesus said only what the Father said. Does KNOWING what Jesus said and the The Father and Spirit agree with - bring turmoil that you feel a need to change the subject?
Ignoring and disobeying The Words of Jesus with the desire to follow evil/man teachings brings destruction for eternity.
Now you are on your own. As Jesus turned away for He knew what was in them, so do I.
Are you saying that the "Words" are the same thing as the Word?
Nothing if it accomplishes something. Which only the work of Christ could do.
Then after Christ worked and God worked, salvation was offered to men freely as a gift, not something earned or deserved.
So yes, someone had to pay for the sin. Jesus did that because we CAN'T.
Then He offers to us freely what we can NEVER earn or deserve on our own.
Interesting how the word is considered *anti-Catholic*.
God is love. (1 John 4:8)
The fruit of the Holy Spirit is love. Galatians 5:22
And now saying Jesus is love means something different? What's the matter? Don't you believe that Jesus is God?
That is saying then, that the Holy Spirit isn't really a person, but rather a thing; an action or an emotion. Or the name we give to the love shared between them.
Sounds like denial of the Trinity to me because of the denial of the personhood of the Holy Spirit.
Why would you expect them to invite you to a Catholic church if you aren’t Catholic and how would they know the relative merits of other churches to recommend one to you?
I certainly wouldn’t expect a Methodist to invite me to church if they knew I was a Catholic. I don’t understand your point,
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