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Why the Episcopal Church is on Life Support
http://www.youtube.com ^ | August 19, 2012

Posted on 04/29/2013 7:09:21 AM PDT by NKP_Vet

"The theology of Rome, the authority of Rome—that was appealing to us," says Father Mark Lewis of St. Luke's Parish, the first US Episcopal church to join the Catholic Church under new Vatican rules.

(Excerpt) Read more at youtube.com ...


TOPICS: Ecumenism; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; ecusa; homosexualagenda; religiousleft; sourcetitlenoturl
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This is what happens when a faith caves in to the homosexual agenda and allows a show of hands to determine doctrine instead of the Holy Word of God.
1 posted on 04/29/2013 7:09:21 AM PDT by NKP_Vet
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To: NKP_Vet

Every church that has tried to become more “inclusive” by jettisoning its beliefs and moral standards has just accelerated its demise. If you stand for nothing, you will get nothing.


2 posted on 04/29/2013 7:14:21 AM PDT by littleharbour ("All men having power ought to be distrusted to a certain degree. ~ James Madison)
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To: NKP_Vet

Gonna’ happen to the United Methodists before too long as they “struggle” to find a united stance of condemnation of homosexuality and abortion. But the Methodist do, however, frown heavily on gambling. So, you see, they do have some standards.


3 posted on 04/29/2013 7:14:50 AM PDT by laweeks
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To: NKP_Vet

What gets me is there is an alternative - the Anglican Church in North America. Very orthodox, supported by the Bible-believing churches in the Global South, and ultimately born of the ECLA heresies. All this without the issues with Roman Catholicism that caused the split in the first place.


4 posted on 04/29/2013 7:16:35 AM PDT by Liberty Tree Surgeon (Mow your own lawn!)
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To: NKP_Vet

Disgusting, but not surprising. On Judgment Day I would hate to be this priest who shepherded his flock to Rome.


5 posted on 04/29/2013 7:21:53 AM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: NKP_Vet

The Church was started because King Henry VIII was seeking a divorce and the Vatican refused to grant it. So the King created his own Church, which is also proved to be a clever patronage device. The King confiscated Catholic Church properties for both himself and his loyal allies. Meanwhile countless thousands who opposed them were sent to a grisly death.


6 posted on 04/29/2013 7:26:15 AM PDT by Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
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To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines

There’s way more to it than that. This was during the Reformation, and the doctrine of the Anglicans differs little from that of the Lutherans, who lack the King Henry connection.


7 posted on 04/29/2013 7:28:30 AM PDT by Liberty Tree Surgeon (Mow your own lawn!)
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To: Liberty Tree Surgeon

Reformation was the issue in Germany. Martin Luther raised legitimate issues about the abuse and corruption regarding the sale of papal indulgences. In England....however....it was a pure power play.


8 posted on 04/29/2013 7:30:43 AM PDT by Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
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To: NKP_Vet

It’s bizarre, the church took an unrepentant adulterer, fornicator and liar, who just happened to be a homosexual, and paraded him as thier moral idol.


9 posted on 04/29/2013 7:31:38 AM PDT by Fido969
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To: laweeks
The UMC is also the only mainline Protestant denomination to officially stand against gay ordination and homosexual practice (without cursing/damning the person). The vote was so profound at the 2012 General Conference in Tampa, FL that abortion/RCRC issues weren't even allowed to be debated on the plenary floor - AND, since the 2012 GC, the leaders of the "Reconciling Ministries Network" and "Methodist Federation for Social Action" resigned from those positions and are now investigating the possibility of forming a new, "inclusive" denomination.

Just fyi....

10 posted on 04/29/2013 7:33:00 AM PDT by Prov3456
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To: NKP_Vet
The Episcopal Church turned its back on Christ decades ago. Since Nature abhors a vacuum, it's not surprising that some vestigial parishes are turning to goddess worship in the form of Catholicism.

This is similar to the northern kingdom of Israel worshiping other gods after breaking away from Judah and Jerusalem following Solomon's death.

Sadly, I predict the same outcome for liberal mainline churches as experienced by ancient Israel - utter destruction.

11 posted on 04/29/2013 7:40:31 AM PDT by Dr. Thorne ("How long, O Lord, holy and true?" - Rev. 6:10)
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To: NKP_Vet

The Episcopal Church was on life support long before it bought into the gay agenda. It got rid of any belief or requirement that made its parishoners uncomfortable. It turned into a “feel good” religion. I actually had an Episcopal minister tell me once that he wasn’t sure if he believed in the divinity of Christ — that is no lie. When a church — any church — simply turns into a social services organization, it dies because there are plenty of other social services organizations around.


12 posted on 04/29/2013 7:42:26 AM PDT by Opinionated Blowhard ("When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.")
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To: littleharbour
Every church that has tried to become more “inclusive” by jettisoning its beliefs and moral standards has just accelerated its demise. If you stand for nothing, you will get nothing.

The same can be said for the Republican Party. Any attempt to be more "inclusive" to traditionally-Democrat constituencies results in the core staying home.

13 posted on 04/29/2013 7:44:12 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: Liberty Tree Surgeon

I left the UMC and am now an Anglican.
Best thing I have ever done. My church is a wonderful group of Bible believing folks. Our pastor preached the most amazing sermon yesterday - calling out Obama and dependence on government rather that God and the DOD putting evangelicals on watch lists. I have never in my life heard a pastor speak to the political issues of the day like that from the pulpit.


14 posted on 04/29/2013 7:50:52 AM PDT by iceskater (Enjoy your chains, comrades.)
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To: NKP_Vet

My MIL and husband are “reformed” Catholics, that means they attend the Episcopal Church some. I have attended with them in the past, decided not to do so again. The church is just so political. I am not comfortable with political from the pulpit.


15 posted on 04/29/2013 7:55:07 AM PDT by Roses0508
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To: NKP_Vet
The theology of Rome, the authority of Rome—that was appealing to us

I guess if you want to complete your apostasy ... you want to go big.

16 posted on 04/29/2013 8:06:48 AM PDT by dartuser (My firearm is not illegal ... its undocumented.)
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To: littleharbour

“Every church that has tried to become more “inclusive” by jettisoning its beliefs and moral standards has just accelerated its demise. If you stand for nothing, you will get nothing.”

Bears repeating.


17 posted on 04/29/2013 8:09:59 AM PDT by traderrob6
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To: Liberty Tree Surgeon

Don’t forget that the Lutherans did frown on dancing.
I don’t think the Anglicans did.


18 posted on 04/29/2013 8:10:13 AM PDT by Maine Mariner
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To: dartuser

If you are an apostate, why not bow to Antichrist?


19 posted on 04/29/2013 8:12:32 AM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines

The had a Book of Common Prayer that was particularly inspiring. Has then put on the funeral pyre too?


20 posted on 04/29/2013 8:13:06 AM PDT by Theodore R. ("Hey, the American people must all be crazy out there!")
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To: Opinionated Blowhard
When a church — any church — simply turns into a social services organization, it dies

That is what is happening to the female religious orders in the US. Many of them half a century ago threw out their habits and became social service organizations and threw out theology at the same time so that they could help girls get safe abortions etc., Those orders now send out incessant requests for donations to support their retired members because there are few young members now to take care of the elderly ones. The orders that maintained tradition, especially the contemplatives are full of new blood. Young women do not take vows to do social work. They go to work for the government for that.
In my parish there are nuns from two different orders represented; One is contemplative and the sisters are under 30 and dress like nuns. The other is a modernist order. Those sisters are senior citizens and dress in "civvies" and are not much concerned with religious orthodoxy or intensity. They are essentially clerks for the parish, in sinecures of a sort.

21 posted on 04/29/2013 8:30:44 AM PDT by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's Economics In One Lesson ONLINE www.fee.org/library/books/economics-in-one-lesson)
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To: Theodore R.
Has then put on the funeral pyre too?

? and again- ?

22 posted on 04/29/2013 8:32:32 AM PDT by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's Economics In One Lesson ONLINE www.fee.org/library/books/economics-in-one-lesson)
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To: NKP_Vet

Rev. Ian Markham on Anglican Ordinariate: “Not Cricket.”


23 posted on 04/29/2013 8:42:41 AM PDT by Oratam
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To: Theodore R.
My understanding is that the new Missal for the Ordinariate uses much of the Book of Common Prayer.

The goal of the Ordinariate was to avoid shredding up Anglican culture.

24 posted on 04/29/2013 8:50:01 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: NKP_Vet
This is what happens when a faith caves in to the homosexual agenda and allows a show of hands to determine doctrine instead of the Holy Word of God.

Amen!

25 posted on 04/29/2013 9:03:05 AM PDT by Albion Wilde (Don't believe any rumors in Washington, DC until they are officially denied.)
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To: NKP_Vet

Attended an Episcopal Church in early 70’s and found them tied into structure of service and embracing liberal thought. Very little preaching on the Bible. Have since attended independent Bible Churches as they are more concerned with the “Word of God” than appeasing current popular trends.


26 posted on 04/29/2013 9:05:54 AM PDT by Boomer One
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To: littleharbour
Every church that has tried to become more “inclusive” by jettisoning its beliefs and moral standards has just accelerated its demise.

(KJV) Matthew 7:
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

27 posted on 04/29/2013 9:09:23 AM PDT by Albion Wilde (Don't believe any rumors in Washington, DC until they are officially denied.)
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To: laweeks
But the Methodist do, however, frown heavily on gambling. So, you see, they do have some standards.

In my childhood, the Methodist Episcopal church was very conservative and frowned on any drinking at any time, and forbade dancing, card playing or movies on Sunday. Our family went to church a minimum of three times a week. All that started to change with the merger with United Church of Christ into the present United Methodist Church. The classic episcopal liturgy, the confessions, the sense of mystery and reverence all faded away, to be replaced by pop culture.

The first time I took an in-depth theology class in the 90s, I got up and left the UMC. It became very clear that the Bible was pretty much radioactive for most of the so-called "preaching" and teaching I had encountered in Methodism since around 1968 or so; and I was stuck on stupid there because we were the fifth generation of family in that church.

I remember talking one time in my early adulthood with our much beloved family pastor, the one who had officiated at my parents' wedding; and he was expressing amazement that his roommate in seminary "would read a Bible verse fifty or sixty times before sitting down to write a sermon -- fifty, sixty times!" He just couldn't understand why anyone would do that. I wanted to ask him "Who is this guy, and where is his church?" but family ties kept me silent. Silent no more. Now I say to anyone who will listen,

"Luther and Wesley are spinning in their graves!"

28 posted on 04/29/2013 9:22:47 AM PDT by Albion Wilde (Don't believe any rumors in Washington, DC until they are officially denied.)
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To: Prov3456
since the 2012 GC, the leaders of the "Reconciling Ministries Network" and "Methodist Federation for Social Action" resigned from those positions and are now investigating the possibility of forming a new, "inclusive" denomination.

Hi, Prov, I remember meeting you at Mologne House, Walter Reed; and remember you as a pro-life Christian.

I read your post with interest, having been so offended by my last ten pastors before I actually left the UMC either being gay and lying about it, or being very pro-gay and promoting the involvement of obviously gay leaders with the children's ministries. This is in the northeast, Philadelphia and Baltimore conferences. I have not experienced this degree of heresy in the UMC when I visit family in other regions. I am so glad to hear what you wrote.

29 posted on 04/29/2013 9:29:13 AM PDT by Albion Wilde (Don't believe any rumors in Washington, DC until they are officially denied.)
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To: Albion Wilde

This ought to be renamed “the Catholic-bashing thread” .

Reminds me of a former co-worker,claimed to be an annoited Baptist minister,so abrasive and so full of himself, that he couldn’t find a church to hire him.He also had a whole bunch of very unlikely personal experiences to relate,and purposely loaded up on debt before declaring bankruptcy.He had a real passion for condemning Catholics.

Amazing all the hatred that is preached “in God’s name”.


30 posted on 04/29/2013 9:36:34 AM PDT by hoosierham (Freedom isn't free)
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To: Dr. Thorne
... goddess worship in the form of Catholicism.

Catholics worship God the Father, not God the Mother.

Oh! Wait!

You must be referring to our worship of Mary.

Which we don't do.

Try again.

31 posted on 04/29/2013 9:38:10 AM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: Boomer One; All

Anyone know what happened with the building, grounds, and $$$..did TEC try to grab it...that’s been the big issue, and problem, with other parishes that have left, or attempted to, over the years..the so-called Dennis canon..


32 posted on 04/29/2013 9:45:49 AM PDT by ken5050 (Not every Muslim is a terrorist, but just about every terrorist is a Muslim..)
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To: hoosierham

“He had a real passion for condemning Catholics”

Was his last name Swaggart? LOL.


33 posted on 04/29/2013 10:19:55 AM PDT by NKP_Vet
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To: ken5050
Depends on the jurisdiction.

In VA, they get to keep their property (at least last I heard). Here (GA), they do not.

But the idea of grabbing the property may not be such a good one in the long run. With the exception of churches that happen to sit on extremely valuable real estate (as in downtown Savannah and Atlanta), what that means in reality is that the diocese is taking on responsibility for buildings that are usually old, high-maintenance (those slate roofs and stonework), and not easily liquidated to cash. With declining membership and declining income, that's a herd of white elephants many bishops may come to wish they had never stolen.

34 posted on 04/29/2013 10:26:22 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGS Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: .45 Long Colt

Your Christian example is inspiring.


35 posted on 04/29/2013 10:31:17 AM PDT by jjm2111
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To: Theodore R.
TEC no longer uses the "traditional" BCP, by and large.

The old (1928) BCP was revised in the 70s and "brought up to date". The new language was essentially indistinguishable from what Fr. Z calls "the Lame Duck Translation", the execrable mis-translation of the Catholic Mass that was also introduced in the 70s.

The Catholics learned from their mistake and have instituted a new re-translation that is not as impressive from a language standpoint as the '28 BCP, but is a marked improvement on the Lame Duck and is theologically sound. TEC has refused to learn - it did keep much of the old language as a "separate but equal" "Rite I" but it is not much used and was basically a sop for the old-line Piskies. Of course, even the '28 BCP had some theological problems, which those of us who were "High Churchers" resolutely ignored for years.

That cognitive dissonance has enhanced the appeal of the Ordinariate to the High Church wing of TEC. Unless, of course, they're completely in the tank on the political issues (see "Smoky Mary's" in NYC).

36 posted on 04/29/2013 10:32:05 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGS Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: Dr. Thorne
Speaking as a sixth-generation Episcopalian who swam the Tiber years ago, you're just as wrong as you can be.

I don't tell you what you believe -- please don't presume to tell me what I believe.

We were received into the Catholic Church after much prayerful study and conversation with various Anglican groups and Catholic parishes. Your idea that there is any "goddess worship" going on is unfounded and really borders on silliness.

I know a couple of REAL goddess worshippers (i.e. Wiccans, poor deluded souls) and the Blessed Mother is no doubt shocked at their goings-on. She rejects worship (although we give her great honor as God's mother) and in every way points us towards her Son. "Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it."

37 posted on 04/29/2013 10:37:19 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGS Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother
I thought that the big church...in VA, Truro?..LOST their appeal, and had to give up the multi-million dollar property.

You are being far to kind to the PB of TEC, and the idiots who advise her...they've spent millions on litigation...but they have to grab the parishes, and then let them fall in disrepair and disuse....they can't allow vibrant churches t o secede..and thrive....they "cure" the patient by killing him...

38 posted on 04/29/2013 10:45:50 AM PDT by ken5050 (Not every Muslim is a terrorist, but just about every terrorist is a Muslim..)
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To: jjm2111

The truth is un-Christian? That cannot be so.

I stand with Charles Spurgeon on Antichrist:

“It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Antichrist, and as to what Antichrist is no sane man ought to raise a question. If it be not the popery in the Church of Rome there is nothing in the world that can be called by that name. If there were to be issued a hue and cry for Antichrist, we should certainly take up this church on suspicion, and it would certainly not be let loose again, for it so exactly answers the description.”

“Popery is contrary to Christ’s Gospel, and is the Antichrist, and we ought to pray against it. It should be the daily prayer of every believer that Antichrist might be hurled like a millstone into the flood and for Christ, because it wounds Christ, because it robs Christ of His glory, because it puts sacramental efficacy in the place of His atonement, and lifts a piece of bread into the place of the Saviour, and a few drops of water into the place of the Holy Ghost, and puts a mere fallible man like ourselves up as the vicar of Christ on earth; if we pray against it, because it is against Him, we shall love the persons though we hate their errors: we shall love their souls though we loath and detest their dogmas, and so the breath of our prayers will be sweetened, because we turn our faces towards Christ when we pray.”


39 posted on 04/29/2013 10:57:50 AM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: hoosierham
This ought to be renamed “the Catholic-bashing thread” .

Huh? Maybe the "Episcopal bashing thread by Catholics". Not sure I see any Catholic bashing.

40 posted on 04/29/2013 11:02:18 AM PDT by raybbr (People who still support Obama are either a Marxist or a moron. No, they are both.)
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To: Fido969

Could you clarify this statement.....are you talking about Henry VIII?

Thanks!


41 posted on 04/29/2013 11:04:11 AM PDT by jp3 (BABIES, GUNS & JESUS...HOT DAMN!!)
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To: jjm2111

Pretending everything is A-okay while men’s souls are consigned to eternal hell is not being a “Christian example.”

Yes, I made a joke, but the truth is I have tremendous concern for the souls of men. I have a great number of my own family who are Roman Catholic and I worry for them. I have spent years studying Catholicism. The more I know, the more my fear for their souls grows. Instead of questioning my Christian virtue perhaps you would be wise to ask me why I believe as I do.


42 posted on 04/29/2013 11:08:58 AM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: .45 Long Colt

So Jesus Christ, in designating Peter the first Pope, created the Antichrist?

An interesting concept.

One which I’ll leave unexplored.


43 posted on 04/29/2013 11:30:03 AM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: Dr. Thorne

Good observations, If you are of the vine your church will prosper, if you are separated you will wither.


44 posted on 04/29/2013 11:39:44 AM PDT by 2001convSVT (Going Galt as fast as I can.)
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To: DuncanWaring

You’ve bought the lie.


45 posted on 04/29/2013 11:41:24 AM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: .45 Long Colt

What’s the lie?


46 posted on 04/29/2013 12:41:57 PM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: DuncanWaring

The Papacy’s claim to have the authority of the Apostle Peter.

http://youtu.be/JCVUmrY55D0

I beg you to watch the testimony of a former longtime priest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvID3lRyYIc&feature=relmfu


47 posted on 04/29/2013 1:12:15 PM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: jp3

Hmmm... Yes, him too.


48 posted on 04/29/2013 1:12:39 PM PDT by Fido969
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To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
6 The Church was started because King Henry VIII was seeking a divorce and the Vatican refused to grant it. So the King created his own Church, which is also proved to be a clever patronage device. The King confiscated Catholic Church properties for both himself and his loyal allies. Meanwhile countless thousands who opposed them were sent to a grisly death.

Can't really disagree with what you wrote. It tracks with what I was taught going through confirmation class at age 12 in the Protestant Episcopal Church of the United States in 1967. I would add just a few comments ...

1. John Wycliffe, 1330 – 1384, was an English Scholastic philosopher, theologian, lay preacher, translator, reformer and university teacher at Oxford in England, who was known as an early dissident in the Roman Catholic Church during the 14th century. His followers were known as Lollards, a somewhat rebellious movement, which preached anticlerical and biblically-centred reforms. The Lollard movement was a precursor to the Protestant Reformation, and for this reason, Wycliffe is sometimes called "The Morning Star of the Reformation". He was one of the earliest opponents of papal authority influencing secular power. Wycliffe was also an early advocate for translation of the Bible into the common language. He completed his translation directly from the Vulgate into vernacular English in the year 1382, now known as Wycliffe's Bible. It is probable that he personally translated the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; and it is possible he translated the entire New Testament, while his associates translated the Old Testament.

2. The Reformation movement had already arrived on the shores of England by Henry VIII's time and Protestants had already worked their way into the ranks of his advisors. So, they mutually benefitted from his adultery - not the most auspicious way to start a church, but life is like that.

3. Thomas Cranmer, 1489 – 1556) was a leader of the English Reformation and Archbishop of Canterbury during the reigns of Henry VIII, Edward VI and, for a short time, Mary I. He helped build a favourable case for Henry's divorce from Catherine of Aragon which resulted in the separation of the English Church from union with the Holy See. Along with Thomas Cromwell, he supported the principle of Royal Supremacy, in which the king was considered sovereign over the Church within his realm. When Edward came to the throne, Cranmer was able to promote major reforms. He wrote and compiled the first two editions of the Book of Common Prayer, a complete liturgy for the English Church. With the assistance of several Continental reformers to whom he gave refuge, he developed new doctrinal standards in areas such as the Eucharist, clerical celibacy, the role of images in places of worship, and the veneration of saints. Cranmer promulgated the new doctrines through the Prayer Book, the Homilies and other publications. After the accession of the Roman Catholic Mary I, Cranmer was put on trial for treason and heresy. Imprisoned for over two years and under pressure from Church authorities, he made several recantations and apparently reconciled himself with the Roman Catholic Church. However, on the day of his execution (burned at the stake), he withdrew his recantations, to die a heretic to Roman Catholics and a martyr for the principles of the English Reformation.

4. Mary I, 1516 – 1558) was Queen of England and Ireland from July 1553 until her death. Her brutal persecution of Protestants caused her opponents to give her the sobriquet "Bloody Mary". She was the only child born of the ill-fated marriage of Henry VIII and his first wife Catherine of Aragon who survived to adulthood. Her younger half-brother, Edward VI, succeeded Henry in 1547. When Edward became mortally ill in 1553, he attempted to remove Mary from the line of succession because of religious differences. On his death, their cousin Lady Jane Grey was at first proclaimed queen. Mary assembled a force in East Anglia and successfully deposed Jane, who was ultimately beheaded. In 1554, Mary married Philip of Spain, becoming queen consort of Habsburg Spain on his accession in 1556. As the fourth crowned monarch of the Tudor dynasty, Mary is remembered for her restoration of Roman Catholicism after the short-lived Protestant reign of her half-brother. During her five-year reign, she had over 280 religious dissenters burned at the stake in the Marian Persecutions. Her re-establishment of Roman Catholicism was reversed after her death in 1558 by her younger half-sister and successor, Elizabeth I.

5. So, remind me how the Holy See decided that priests could not marry and have families and property?

6. So, remind me about that little episode of Johann Tetzel and indulgences ... and St. Peter's Basilica?

7. Matthew 7:3-5 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

8. The current Church of England is a ghost of a church, and not very holy at that. Yes, it is the national church which means it receives taxpayer support. The U.K. is truly a post-Christian nation today. The recently retired Archbishop of Cnaterbury, Rowan, the "Rune-Druid-Ruin", Williams, pretty much wrecked the world-wide Anglican Communion with his inclusiveness of active homosexuals in all things Anglican.

49 posted on 04/29/2013 1:13:43 PM PDT by MacNaughton
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To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
The Church was started because King Henry VIII was seeking a divorce and the Vatican refused to grant it.

A request which had never been refused a reigning monarch before, with France and Spain in the wings.

Not really that simple, after all.

50 posted on 04/29/2013 1:15:36 PM PDT by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise.)
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