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What’s Killing American Catholicism – 1
Patheos.com ^ | 4/30/13 | Fr. Dwight Longenecker

Posted on 05/01/2013 6:54:27 AM PDT by marshmallow

Reading Sherry Weddell’s excellent Forming Intentional Disciples is making me think about the American church and what ails her. Can anybody deny that there is a sickness in the body ecclesia? When 50% of Catholics vote for a man who stoutly defends same sex marriage and partial birth abortion can we say that Catholics in America are okay?

I don’t think so.

Thus a series of posts on what’s killing Catholicism. All the words begin with the letter ‘C’. I can’t help it. I was brought up as a Biblical Evangelical and our pastors always used alliteration to make their points memorable.

The first problem is cultural catholicism. The Poles, Italians, Irish, French, Czech, German and more Catholics came here from the old country and the bishops reckoned the best thing to do with them all was to allow cultural parishes. So in the same town the Irish Catholics went to St Patrick’s and the Poles to St Stanislaus and the Italians to St Anthony of Padua. Geesh, a man in my parish who grew up in Reading, Pennsylvania said that when he was a boy a girl from his Czech parish fell in love with an Irish boy and the Irish priest wouldn’t marry them because it was a mixed marriage.

I’m all for cultural customs and so forth, but the problem is that the immigrant Catholics–in a foreign land–clung to their culture for security and happiness and part of that culture was their Catholicism. The didn’t distinguish their culture from their Catholicism. Then, after a few generations, when they were all really American and stopped being Italian or Irish or German they also stopped being Catholic. The Catholic faith wasn’t much deeper than Mama’s special spaghetti sauce or stories of the Blarney stone.

Of course they didn’t.........

(Excerpt) Read more at patheos.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: catholic; culture; religion
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1 posted on 05/01/2013 6:54:27 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow

the muslim backed rat party...


2 posted on 05/01/2013 6:56:13 AM PDT by Doogle (USAF.68-73..8th TFW Ubon Thailand..never store a threat you should have eliminated))
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To: marshmallow

I still say it’s the long-term result of Vatican II, when everybody’s favorite liberal pope decided to make drastic changes to most of the Catholic traditions, beliefs, and ceremonies.

Once they let the “lay” people in charge, all hell broke loose: cafeteria Catholicism was in vogue . . . pick what you want to believe . . . no more respect for the consecrated Host . . . no more respect for priests or nuns . . . blah, blah, blah


3 posted on 05/01/2013 7:08:55 AM PDT by laweeks
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To: marshmallow
What’s killing Catholicism?

Wolves in bishops' mitres.

4 posted on 05/01/2013 7:10:14 AM PDT by jtal (Runnin' a World in Need with White Folks' Greed - since 1492)
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To: marshmallow

Interesting point(s) in this article, thanks.

I think I would say that it is the same things that are killing all religious: Secularism, relativism, humanism, statism.. all wrapped up into a popular culture that seeks to destroy the spirit.

Pope-emritus Benedict said we are living the end results of the Enlightenment. I think of this mainly as humanism and individualism - fertilizer for the sin of pride. When this grows in a human, she/he cooperates with the evil one in his/her own downfall.

So, my two cents worth is that the enemies of the Church are no different today than in the past; they are only more popular and more ubiquitous.


5 posted on 05/01/2013 7:13:51 AM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: marshmallow
Father Dwight shows quite a bit of restless Yankee gumption, git-up-and-go, enterprise and adventure himself. He worked his way up from the Mennonites, Evangelicanism (or down depending upon your POV) to become an Anglican priest, then a Catholic Monk.

Let's hope he doesn't try eastern religions. I can see this guy becoming a Hindu Holy Guy, a Bhuddist monk, a Shinto Bonze, then a leading Imam.

However, you never read something he writes without coming away richer.

6 posted on 05/01/2013 7:15:52 AM PDT by Kenny Bunk (The Obama Molecule: Teflon binds with Melanin = No Criminal Charges Stick)
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To: marshmallow

Liberalism.


7 posted on 05/01/2013 7:16:13 AM PDT by dragonblustar
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To: marshmallow

Scriptural modernism killed the American Catholic Church. Of course, Fr. Dwight can’t say this because he’s a scriptural modernist (gotta prove he’s not a fundie anymore, y’know!).


8 posted on 05/01/2013 7:16:52 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: laweeks

Too bad you’re among those confused about what Vatican II did and did NOT do.

In fact it was an excuse for those with ill intentions to misuse the purpose of Vatican II.

Read the documents and you will find that it was only the unintended liberal application which lead to the changes you cite.


9 posted on 05/01/2013 7:19:10 AM PDT by G Larry (Darkness Hates the Light)
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To: marshmallow

Bishops lacking intestinal fortitude. If they had held firm, the Church in America wouldn’t be in disarray.


10 posted on 05/01/2013 7:22:08 AM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: marshmallow

I don’t disagree with what’s here; but what’s not here is Vatican II and its profound, if disastrous effect on Catholics in America, in particular. Europe’s Catholic identity had already begun to decline, but America’s Catholic population was thriving; orthodoxy reigned. The Church in 1962 America, very definitely the monolith Nancy Pelosi claimed it wasn’t, needed no “open windows,” no vistas of reform. Convents were full and happy; Catholic elementary education, for the most part, was free, available, and superior.

Vatican II, along with America’s post-war super-power status accidentally (?) destroyed all that.

Along with the communist efforts to sabotage seminaries (Bella Dodd) and the burgeoning peace/feminist/academic movements (also communist-inspired), American Catholicism simply faced too many fronts to defend. And, in keeping with “the spirit of the council,” it mistakenly eschewed orthodoxy with as much fervor as it had previously reserved for heretics.

Thankfully, however, there is no such animal as the American Catholic Church.


11 posted on 05/01/2013 7:22:10 AM PDT by Mach9
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To: dragonblustar

no complicated answers required.... parents stopped taking children to church every week and society has lost any sense of sin


12 posted on 05/01/2013 7:24:39 AM PDT by longfellowsmuse (last of the living nomads)
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To: marshmallow

The Creation of the Religious Left

“When people reflect on the Christian church they generally picture a fellowship of believers whose focus is on *spiritual growth*, *spreading the faith*, and *good works*. These were the church’s primary goals until the last few decades. There is a wide gulf, however, between yesterday’s goals and today’s agenda. The American mainline churches the most prominent of which are the United Methodists, the United Church of Christ, the Presbyterian Church (USA), the Episcopalians, the American Baptists, many Catholic leaders and orders, and the Lutheran Church in America - have realigned their priorities in a frighteningly *political* direction.”

“A growing percentage of Christian leadership has abandoned its role as *spiritual shepherd* because it no longer considers humanity’s *spiritual welfare* its greatest concern. A great many bishops have rejected *winning souls* in favor of *influencing political issues*. Church bureaucracy now neglects traditional mission in favor of *lobbying for political causes*. In fact, certain sectors of the church now make it their primary business to manufacture, widely distribute, and finance a radical agenda by which they hope *to save the world*. In doing so, they have created the *Religious Left*.”
http://cmpage.org/betrayal/chapt1.html


13 posted on 05/01/2013 7:25:33 AM PDT by haffast (Books serve to show a man that those original thoughts of his aren't very new at all. -Abe Lincoln)
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To: marshmallow

American Catholics, mostly.


14 posted on 05/01/2013 7:30:23 AM PDT by Lurker (Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is it is the only answer.)
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For later


15 posted on 05/01/2013 7:32:38 AM PDT by traderrob6
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To: G Larry
it was only the unintended liberal application which lead to the changes you cite.

It was those "unintended" applications that were never snuffed out immediately that led to the disaster that the church became:

Nuns running around in street clothes
Priests not having to do vespers anymore
Saturday Mass was now equiv to Sunday Mass
Handling the Host like it was a Big Mac
Lay people handing you the Host
Being able to eat on your way to church to receive the Host
No more Latin Mass
No immediate expulsion of renegade nuns and priests who supported abortion and faggotry
Allowing discontents, homosexuals, and other heathens to undermine the Church's morals
Female altar boys
(fill in the blanks)

16 posted on 05/01/2013 7:34:24 AM PDT by laweeks
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To: marshmallow

The bishop’s thinking that they can teach publicly without using public discipline. Any first grade teacher knows that won’t work.

Freegards


17 posted on 05/01/2013 7:35:45 AM PDT by Ransomed
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To: laweeks

-Priests that don’t teach during homilies... never talking about abortion at election time
-People wearing short shorts, flip flops hats and raggy t-shirts to mass
-No sacred music; rock bands playing at mass instead of beautiful choirs
-nuns (even habit wearing nuns) lining up to vote for Obama
-social justice focus
-obama stickers on cars in the parking lot at mass.
-pretending illegal immigration no matter who you are is somehow a human right.


18 posted on 05/01/2013 7:40:43 AM PDT by Phillyred
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To: marshmallow

Ping for later read of comments


19 posted on 05/01/2013 7:49:57 AM PDT by plain talk
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To: marshmallow

Things wrong with the Catholic church:

1. There are a lot of people who call themselves Catholics but never attend church (well, maybe once or twice a year). That tends to distort polls.

2. The Bishop’s do not excommunicate politicians who flaunt the church’s teaching.


20 posted on 05/01/2013 7:53:23 AM PDT by stop_fascism (Love your country, but never trust its government - R.A. Heinlein)
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To: longfellowsmuse

I used to blame Vatican 2, born in 1964. I had no formation, but a deep love for God, so I made it through the swamp by His grace alone, then began learning my faith from Catholic radio and praying outside abortion clinincs.

I can say now it wasn’t weak bishops - the Church will have and has always had weak bishops....from weak people like all of us really.

V2? Read it - it’s beautiful and they wanted everyone to evangelize like Popes JP2, B16, Francis, not just weak bishops and weak priests. We just still refuse to do it. How many of us help the poor and scared-pregnant? Here’s a few bucks, some tax momey, and go away.

My parents were so devout - didn’t teach us a darn thing but to act like them. Turned out, they didn’t understand their faith, they just held it strong, deep inside, and died with it. We needed to learn it. V2 wasn’t going to teach it to us, our parents needed to. Having taught CCD and as a homeschool teacher, let me say the best CCD is going to do is get you through your first sacrements. Parents are not teaching - it’s hard, and it’s yours to do!

Going from Latin to English (lamented all my life until I started attending Latin masses again) in reality just allowed us to lose the Catholic culture faster - again, there was no faith UNDERSTANDING behind/beside/within it. No more culture, no more faith. The parents held it firm inside and died with it. Latin, beautiful, masked the lack of understanding and when it went like a flash, the mask was off like a flash. We blame the sexual revolution, Roe v. Wade, .... but they were just the unmasked generation growing up.

The problem is me, as Chesterton said. If I fail, I, first of all, and my family (henceforth) fails and the world fails. If I succeed, God will use them and me every day I have left.

Francis said it again today - speaking to the individual and not the bishops and priests - we don’t need strategic planning, we need prayer, entrusting the success of the Church to Jesus, and moving feet.


21 posted on 05/01/2013 7:54:31 AM PDT by If You Want It Fixed - Fix It
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To: marshmallow
From the web site, "The Official King James Version of the Bible," the following words seem apropos to this discussion, as well as others, today:

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.


- King James Bible "Authorized Version", Pure Cambridge Edition

 

Other Translations of Proverbs 14:12

There is a way which seemeth right vnto a man: but the end thereof are the wayes of death.
- King James Version (1611) - Compare to scan of original Proverbs chapter 14

There is a way {which seems} right to a man, But its end is the way of death.
- New American Standard Version (1995)

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man; But the end thereof are the ways of death.
- American Standard Version (1901)

There is a way which seems straight before a man, but its end is the ways of death.
- Basic English Bible

There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof is the ways of death.
- Darby Bible

There is a way which seemeth just to a man: but the ends thereof lead to death.
- Douay Rheims Bible

There is a way which seemeth right to a man, but the end of it are the ways of death.
- Webster's Bible

There is a way which seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.
- World English Bible

There is a way -- right before a man, And its latter end [are] ways of death.
- Youngs Literal Bible

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
- Jewish Publication Society Bible



View Wesley's Notes for Proverbs 14:12

14:12 Right - There are some evil courses which men may think to be lawful and good. The end - The event shews that they were sinful and destructive.


22 posted on 05/01/2013 7:55:57 AM PDT by loveliberty2
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To: Phillyred; laweeks

Excellent points - I couldn’t agree more.


23 posted on 05/01/2013 8:19:30 AM PDT by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
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To: longfellowsmuse

I agree.


24 posted on 05/01/2013 8:38:37 AM PDT by dragonblustar
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To: marshmallow

Sodomites


25 posted on 05/01/2013 8:48:04 AM PDT by BO Stinkss ( I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees)
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To: jtal

Thanks goodness all those Bernardin’s Boys and Jadot’s Jots are being replaced with good, upstanding Bishops who are not afraid to speak the truth.


26 posted on 05/01/2013 8:49:20 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: marshmallow

A lot of good reasons here, but I am going to propose one that I believe is happening.

All (well, most) the other churches have endorsed homosexuality, abortion, euthansia, contraception, embryonic stem cell research.

The Catholic Church has maintained its spine and stood against these items.

As a result — people have fallen into the trap/heresy of modernism and have taken the easy way out -— Let’s attend another church (small c) that is more modern thinking than the Catholic Church.

So they go off and are soon supporting all the sins mentioned above.


27 posted on 05/01/2013 8:54:55 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Phillyred

i go looking quite often after mass in the parking lot for liberal/0bama bumper stickers and thankfully at my parish have never seen one.


28 posted on 05/01/2013 9:00:32 AM PDT by Finatic (I ran out of change and have given up on hope. FUBO, I am so sick of your sorry a$$ you effin punk)
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To: Kenny Bunk

Catholic Monk? He’s a married man. I don’t think he was ever a monk - at least not as a Catholic he wasn’t.


29 posted on 05/01/2013 9:26:32 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: marshmallow

bkmk


30 posted on 05/01/2013 9:42:04 AM PDT by Sergio (An object at rest cannot be stopped! - The Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight)
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To: marshmallow

I saw a bumper sticker on the back of a car yesterday. “I’m Catholic and I Vote.” That was in one corner. The other corner: “Obama 2012”.


31 posted on 05/01/2013 9:53:45 AM PDT by beaversmom
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To: Salvation

I agree with your reasoning.

Whatever the cause de jour, the Church is in the way. Free love, contraception, abortion, homosexuality, same sex marriage...

To remain truly in the Church is to stand apart from this culture and to oppose it and to be quite unpopular. Some aren’t willing to do this.


32 posted on 05/01/2013 10:02:47 AM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

We are each responsible for our own little corner of the world. We must talk about the life-giving gifts of Jesus Christ on the Cross and being re-presented in memory of him in the Mass.

We must reach out to others.

Where are most of the Catholics in my town? Probably in the evangelical or Baptist Churches because THEY want to be free of the Church’s rules on these subjects.

We’ve got a big job ahead of us to bring them back. (And we can probably start within our own families — I know I can.)


33 posted on 05/01/2013 10:09:22 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: marshmallow

The Catholics I know abhor the “social justice” garbage that pours from the pulpit on Sunday. They stay for other reasons, mostly that they have been persuaded that the Church is their only hope of salvation. They have been scared good and proper in their childhood and dare not think these things out for themselves.


34 posted on 05/01/2013 10:22:26 AM PDT by firebrand
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To: laweeks

That was helpful....

...for those who’ve been asleep for 50 years

Most are aware of the poor management.

My point is that it was not due to the actual content or intent of Vatican II.


35 posted on 05/01/2013 10:29:22 AM PDT by G Larry (Darkness Hates the Light)
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To: marshmallow

This is way off base, he equates becoming an “American” Catholic as leading to being a democrat voter, when it is the opposite, the more American a Catholic becomes, the more likely he is to vote like a Southern, all-American Protestant.

It is Catholic foreignness which is the more liberal, and it always has been, today, and a 100 years ago, and a 150 years ago.

Catholics are to the left of the non-Catholic Christians, that is the problem, they move right by becoming more American, not less.


36 posted on 05/01/2013 10:56:39 AM PDT by ansel12 (Civilization, Crusade against the Mohammedan Death Cult)
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To: Salvation

Non-Catholic churches collectively produce people who mostly vote against the left’s agenda of abortion and homosexuality.

The Catholic denomination produces people who mostly vote for the pro-abortion, pro-homosexual agenda.


37 posted on 05/01/2013 11:01:00 AM PDT by ansel12 (Civilization, Crusade against the Mohammedan Death Cult)
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To: Salvation

Amen. And, speaking for myself, Pope Francis is calling to do just that.


38 posted on 05/01/2013 11:11:37 AM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: If You Want It Fixed - Fix It

I like what you said.


39 posted on 05/01/2013 11:20:51 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Sarah is right.)
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To: vladimir998

http://dwightlongenecker.com/

Fr. Longenecker, like many an Anglican priest and Lutheran pastor before him, took Roman orders and remained married. Next time I see the Pope, I’ll ask him about the monk part. He belongs to the Oblate Order,


40 posted on 05/01/2013 11:58:41 AM PDT by Kenny Bunk (The Obama Molecule: Teflon binds with Melanin = No Criminal Charges Stick)
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To: ansel12
Longenecker doesn't mention voting. At all. That's your cut and paste hobby horse which you bring to every thread. He does, however, emphasize an inconvenient truth....."the “wonderful” values of most Americans are unapologetically materialistic, hedonistic and self centered."

Those are not Catholic values. Longenecker nicely exposes a falsehood which is proposed in all of your posts; namely, that "Democrat" values are "Catholic" values. They're not. They're American values and those who fall away from Catholicism embrace them.

America is, and always has been, a liberal project.

That's its fundamental problem. The "pursuit of happiness" is enshrined in the Declaration of Independence and is the major driving force behind the progressivist, liberal agenda which advances incrementally with time. At our core, we're liberal. We hold a liberal view of the human condition. People must be free of constraints in order to pursue their dreams, desires and to find worldly "happiness".

This philosophy was responsible for America's spectacular economic rise and brief (in historical terms) ascendancy in the world. Sadly, it's also responsible for its current decay, decadence and equally fast-approaching end as our search for "happiness" encompasses the destruction of marriage, unborn human life and the celebration of sodomy.

Longenecker is spot on.

41 posted on 05/01/2013 11:58:53 AM PDT by marshmallow (.)
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To: marshmallow
Did you even read the article, for instance the opening description?

Reading Sherry Weddell’s excellent Forming Intentional Disciples is making me think about the American church and what ails her. Can anybody deny that there is a sickness in the body ecclesia? When 50% of Catholics vote for a man who stoutly defends same sex marriage and partial birth abortion can we say that Catholics in America are okay?
I don’t think so.
Thus a series of posts on what’s killing Catholicism.

42 posted on 05/01/2013 12:22:02 PM PDT by ansel12 (Civilization, Crusade against the Mohammedan Death Cult)
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To: marshmallow

The problem isn’t the Protestant Christian vote, it is the Catholic Christian vote.

If Catholics voted like non-catholic Christians, the left would dry up.

The Catholics remaining unAmerican is what the left sees as the keys to the kingdom of owning the future, it is why they fight for Catholic immigration and gave us the 1965 Immigration Act.


43 posted on 05/01/2013 12:27:46 PM PDT by ansel12 (Civilization, Crusade against the Mohammedan Death Cult)
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To: ansel12

So the 75% to 80% of the population who aren’t Catholic never vote. Gotcha.


44 posted on 05/01/2013 1:47:53 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: Rashputin

Try reading the post, “”The problem isn’t the Protestant Christian vote, it is the Catholic Christian vote.
If Catholics voted like non-catholic Christians, the left would dry up.””

If members of the Catholic denomination voted like Protestants we would win, if they voted like members of conservative Protestant denominations who vote 75 and 80% republican, then the left would barely exist at all.


45 posted on 05/01/2013 2:01:56 PM PDT by ansel12 (Civilization, Crusade against the Mohammedan Death Cult)
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To: ansel12
No.

Longenecker is pointing out something which has been explained to you on multiple occasions by numerous posters.

"Catholics" who vote for Obama, for instance, have abandoned Catholic values and Catholicism itself. They have instead, adopted the prevailing values of current American culture. In what sense are they "Catholic" then?

They are not sustaining "the left". They are in fact, embracing a longstanding liberal ethos which predates the Catholic influx to this country and which is now approaching its end game. "The pursuit of happiness" to increasing numbers of modern Americans, Catholic, non-Catholic, agnostic and atheist, means the pursuit of unrestrained sexual gratification and the disposal of its unfortunate products in the form of abortion, for instance. Who are we to stand in their way? This theology is ancient and not dependent on fallen away Catholics for its propagation or continuation, although many have embraced it.

It should be noted in passing, of course, that Republicans have no solution to this problem. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded. They are, in increasing numbers, pining to join the Democratic cool crowd and are bending over backwards to show that they're not "homophobic" or "anti-women".

They are also at the forefront of America's current liberal cause de jour; the destruction of ancient Christian communities in the Middle East. Iraq's de-Christianization owes much to the last "conservative" in the White House.

46 posted on 05/01/2013 2:07:10 PM PDT by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow
Yes Longenecker opened up describing the Catholic vote.

I disagree with him that Catholics become liberal when they become more American, it is just the opposite.

Protestants vote conservative, pro-life, anti-homosexual, etc, the Catholic vote has always leaned left in America, always pushed it left, when Protestants were trying to stop Roosevelt, the Catholics were fighting for the left's agenda, it is the same under Clinton and Obama, heck, they almost got Al Gore in.

And we all know that Catholic immigration has turned America left and swallowed up entire states like California, and is killing off America forever to the point that liberalism takes it all, forever.

California became a fortress of the left because the traditional Christian Americans were replaced with Catholics.

It is bizarre that a left-wing democrat voting block keeps claiming that they are fixing the greatest nation ever created by curing it's liberalism.

47 posted on 05/01/2013 2:27:56 PM PDT by ansel12 (Civilization, Crusade against the Mohammedan Death Cult)
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To: marshmallow
"It should be noted in passing, of course, that Republicans have no solution to this problem."

Neither party is actively courting the Catholic vote. Every major election presents Catholics with the conundrum of which of our moral values will be violated least. The result is that less than half of all Catholics vote and neither party can claim a majority of Catholic votes. Those who look to blame Catholics for not toeing a party line and remaining Catholic are naive at best.

Peace be to you

48 posted on 05/01/2013 2:29:34 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave is a book, He left us a Church.)
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To: ansel12
What a line of hokum.

Catholics are few and far between where I live in the South but there are eleven churches who get together and set aside a Sunday each year to "celebrate diversity" and preach about what a wonderful blessing being queer is.

I seriously doubt the thousands of people who show up for those services who claim to be Methodists, Baptists, Independent Evangelicals, and all sorts of other things are voting for any Conservative or ever have but they sure do vote for scum like King Barry and any democrat fascist agenda item that comes down the pike.

People who are too lazy to make a difference where they are always have a boogie man to blame everything on. Usually, though, such folks aren't so mentally tepid that they constantly drool and slobber out the theory that the results of the past forty years of elections are the result of what a little over twenty percent of voting public has or hasn't done.

49 posted on 05/01/2013 2:44:58 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: ansel12
"California became a fortress of the left because the traditional Christian Americans were replaced with Catholics."

California has approximately the same percentage Catholics as does Texas. The cause of California's leftward lurch is not the Catholic immigrants, it is the influx of non-Catholic fruits and nuts from the other 49 states since 1970.

50 posted on 05/01/2013 2:45:48 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave is a book, He left us a Church.)
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