Skip to comments.Liturgical liberalism and support for gay civil unions linked?
Posted on 05/03/2013 4:55:43 AM PDT by NYer
ROME, April 23, 2013 (LifeSiteNews.com) – The man in charge of the widely criticized public liturgies of the late Pope John Paul II has told an interviewer that there should be legal recognition of same-sex unions as a matter of justice.
As the pope’s chief liturgist for 18 years of John Paul’s reign, Archbishop Piero Marini, was one of the most influential men in the Church.
“There are many couples that suffer because their civil rights aren’t recognized,” Marini said in an interview with the newspaper La Nación in Costa Rica this weekend.
Asked what he thought of discussions in Costa Rica on the secular state, Marini said, “This is already a reality in Europe. The secular state is good, but evil if it becomes a secularist state, ie: a state that goes against the Catholic Church.”
“Church and state should not be seen as enemies to each other,” he said. “In this discussion it is necessary, for example, to recognize the union of people of the same sex, since there are many couples who suffer because they do not recognize their civil rights. What you cannot do is recognize in any way that this couple is united in marriage.”
However, his comments fly directly in the face of specific teaching of the Catholic Church’s Magisterium.
In 2003, then-Cardinal Ratzinger issued a document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith precluding the possibility of condoning civil union legislation for same-sex partners.
The document, entitled 'Considerations Regarding Proposals to give Legal Recognition to Unions Between Homosexual Persons,' stated: “Laws in favor of homosexual unions are contrary to right reason, because they confer legal guarantees, analogous to those granted to marriage to unions between persons of the same sex.”
“Given the values at stake in this question, the State could not grant legal standing to such unions without failing in its duty to promote and defend marriage as an institution essential to the common good,” it added.
Noteworthy is the liberal reputation of Marini’s papal celebrations, which frequently featured young women as “liturgical dancers” at events like World Youth Day, during his tenure as John Paul II’s master of ceremonies.
Marini’s endorsement of homosexual civil unions fits the profile of “liberal” priest-liturgists soft-pedaling the Church’s teachings regarding homosexuality.
His celebrations both in Rome and at large international events like World Youth Day, were widely criticized for regularly featuring scantily clad “liturgical dancers,” and non-Christian ceremonies like “blessings” by indigenous shaman and other additions proposed as “inculturation.”
As the pope’s chief liturgist Marini was one of the most influential Catholic churchmen in the world, with the fruits of his work being broadcast on television around the globe and seen by millions, if not billions of people.
Despite the teaching, the proposal to accept civil unions as a “compromise” with secularist trends and the homosexual lobbyists that influence them is nevertheless growing in popularity among some Catholic clergy.
Earlier this month, Cardinal Christoph Schönborn, the Archbishop of Vienna – who is also known for a particularly notorious creative “rock and roll” Mass for youth and for allowing similar experiments around his archdiocese – told an audience in London, “There can be same-sex partnerships and they need respect, and even civil law protection. Yes, but please keep it away from the notion of marriage. Because the definition of marriage is the stable union between a man and a woman open to life.”
Despite heavy criticism from lay Catholics and from the Vatican, Schönborn's own cathedral offered “blessing” ceremonies – called “God’s service for lovers,” – for all people “in love,” including same-sex couples.
“We should be clear about terms and respect the needs of people living in a partnership together,” Schönborn added. “The new Austrian law on same-sex partnership is very respectful but clearly distinguishes this situation from marriage.”
Two other cardinals, Colombian Ruben Salazar and Theodore McCarrick, the emeritus archbishop of Washington, D.C., have also recently suggested the Church should not oppose same-sex civil unions.
While there has been much coverage of Marini’s comments on civil unions in the media, few in the secular press have mentioned that liturgical “liberalism,” including a penchant for dancing girls and cobbling together elements from non-Christian religions, often coincides with theological liberalism, especially on the Church’s teaching on sexuality.
In the late 1990s it was revealed that one of the most prominent liturgists of the 1970s and a promoter of the “liturgical dance” trend was a serial homosexual abuser who was ultimately convicted of sexual abuse of minors.
Fr. Barry Glendinning, a priest of the Diocese of London, Ontario, was the darling of the liturgical expert world for his work in the 1970s and his ideas are still popular through his books.
Roger Cardinal Mahony, the former archbishop of Los Angeles who is currently enmeshed in a legal battle of his enabling of homosexual abusers, was known for his occasionally unsubtle opposition to Catholic teaching on homosexuality. He was also one of the most prominent liturgical “liberals” in the Catholic Church, especially known for the experimental Masses that featured at his annual Catholic Education Conference in Los Angeles.
Watch an interview with Archbishop Marini on his liturgical work since Vatican II:
Archbishop Piero Marini - Witness
One who doesn’t properly worship God cannot be trusted to understand sex.
I really wonder why Pope John Paul II did not do more to address this festering anti-Catholic-teaching and the liturgical abuses issues, since this Archbishop Piero Marini worked so closely and for so long with him.
I also wonder why these things weren't more openly and strongly addressed during Pope Benedict XVI's time as Pope.
I also wonder what Pope Francis is going to do about these aberrent teachings and corrupted liturgical abuses, in a clear, open, unambiguous way.
In an age where the Pope tweets through Twitter, maybe they will find a way to more quickly and efficiently weed out some of these harmful bishops, and help remove some of the confusion that ensues from these kinds of counter-productive anti-Catholic pronouncements and teachings and practices by some members of the clergy and hierarchy.
Ummm... There is nothing to suggest that Bergoglio doesn’t agree with liturgical liberalism. See his Maundy Thursday Mass for proof of that. It seems to me that he prefers simple, joyful Masses with an Evangelical twist. I have Evangelical Christian friends who really like Francis because his style is really accessible, especially his preaching style.
He also has little tolerance for those who he feels are pharisees and fundamentalists. These types of people are a bigger turn off to everyday Catholics than the liberal wing of the Church. I generally attend a Catholic Mass in Spanish that has the Evangelical bend and is at the liberal end of the spectrum. For instance, nobody kneels during the Eucharistic prayer. However, the place is always jam packed and the people are happy to be there. I quite like the parish and would hate if some members of pharisees r us started whining about the style of Mass.
Frankly, I think that different people take to different worship styles. I’m not going to begrudge anyone a Latin Mass if they want it. However, it does seem that pharisees r us want to demand that the rest of us follow their liturgical style. Unfortunately, B16 empowered some quite unpleasant, self absorbed types despite the fact that he didn’t mean to.
So basically Evangelical Protestants are secret supporters of same sex marriage because they don’t follow the Catholic Mass?? How about Mormons??
I do think that the Church might move left on civil unions. Lombardi and Marini seem to me like trial balloons. I think that it is a practical compromise. The Church doesn’t oppose contraception or divorce in wider society despite the Church rules on these subjects. I think helping define the law will put the Church in a stronger position when a gay couple inevitably sues the Church for refusing to marry them.
Uhhh.....what? What gave you that impression?
I really haven’t heard of the UCCB lobbying for legislation to ban birth control in society as a whole. And there aren’t Catholic marches demanding that Congress outlaw the Pill. The Healthcare mandate fight is a conscience fight... Catholic institutions don’t want to have to pay for or provide a service they are against.
Right, but it’s not that the Church doesn’t *oppose* contraception in society. Contraception is gravely immoral no matter who does it.
What the USCCB chooses to push for politically is a different story—but it doesn’t affect Church teaching.
Welcome to FreeRepublic.
Yes.. But there is nothing to suggest that the Church couldn’t similarly drop its legislative opposition to civil unions and still point out that they are immoral according to church teachings.
I don’t know where you are getting the information that the Catholic Church will turn left on issues.
Marriage is betwen one man and one woman until death do them part.
Have you ever heard of the Sacrament of Matrimony?
It's a church matter, not a legilative matter. Got it?
There is so much out there about condemning contraception that I am amazed that you haven't heard it. Take a read on some of these links.
Why the fight against abortion starts with opposing contraception
A Look at Some Biblical Texts in Opposition to Contraception
The Pope Was Right All Along (Pope Paul VI) Secular sources now agree with him!
'Humanae Vitae' author Pope Paul VI moves toward sainthood
How Protestants Learned to Love the Pill
A "Humane" Abortion
The Campaign for Humanae Vitae
Bachelorettes and Humanae Vitae
Contraceptives and the Environment - What the Pill Is Doing to Our Water Supply
Melinda Gates: Im Catholic and contraception is not controversial
Catholics Urged to Imitate St. Thomas More in Contraception Battle
Essays for Lent: Contraception
The Differences the Pill has Made
Pastors Preach Against Contraception From Pulpit
Catholics and Contraception: Boston, 1965
Abortion, Contraception and the Church Fathers (Catholic teaching unchanged for 2000 yrs)
Contraception and Catholicism (What the Roman Catholic Church really teaches)
6 Reasons Why Contraception is Sinful and Contrary to God's Will
Time To Admit It: The Church Has Always Been Right On Birth Control
Paul VI: danger of this power passing into the hands of those public authorities ...
The Truth about The Church's Teaching about Contraception.
Letter from Archbishop John G. Vlazny on the matter of freedom of conscience and decisions by HHS
Bishop Olmsted's Letter to Catholics [Catholic Caucus]
Liberty for the Amish & Quakers but not Catholics. . .
Contraception mandate prompts Peoria bishop to instate St. Michael Prayer (Catholic Caucus)
Phoenix bishop (Olmstead): defy feds on birth control
A letter from Archbishop Dennis M. Schnurr concerning HHS edict
Speak honestly: abortion is the killing of tiny human beings in the womb Denver bishop
Bishop [Daniel Jenky] Blasts Secularist Intolerance, Calls For Assertive Action to Defend Church
(Pittsburgh Bishop Zubik comments:) HHS delays rule on contraceptive coverage
Dolan: Natural law, not religious preference, dictates all life sacred
Religious leaders blast HHS over contraception mandate
Mandated Contraception, Sterilization: Caesar Demands Church Violate Conscience
OBAMAS CONTEMPT FOR RELIGIOUS LIBERTY (mandates coverage of sterilization & contraception)
Obama Admin Decides to Require Religious Institutions to Cover Free Contraception
Jews and Evangelicals stand with Church against contraception mandate
Obama Supporters Worried He May Grant Contraception Exemptions to Catholic Hospitals
Catholic college sues HHS over contraception mandate
Children of the Reformation: A Short & Surprising History of Protestantism & Contraception
Implications of Obama Admin move to force Cath hospitals to provide contraception and sterilizations
Catholic doctors group launches petition against contraception mandate
Contraception mandate tramples religious freedom, US bishops say
Planned Parenthood Cuts Contraception, Not Abortion After De-Funding
Contraception underlying cause of breakdown of family, sexual morality, says expert
Contraception: The Reason Catholics Have Abandoned Confession
U.S. Bishops Publication Urges Priests to Preach on Contraception, Sterilization, IVF
Contraception: The Bitter Pill
Catholic Bishops Warn of Civil Disobedience Over Contraceptives [Philippines]
Relationships Market After 50 Years of The Pill
Contraception: The Bacteria Devouring Americas Soul
Christians examine morality of birth control [Ecumenical/Orthodox Presbyterian]
The Cost of Contraception: Women's Health - Response to CNN
The Connection between Contraception and Abortion
Baby Bust: The Demographics of Global Depression
The Surest Sign of a Decadent Culture
Protestants and Birth Control
The Protest of a Protestant Minister Against Birth Control
Contraception: Why Not?
The Bible & Birth Control
Our Gravest Moral Responsibility: Convert the Contraception Mentality
Contraception and Conversion
Evangelical Leaders are Ok with Contraception
The pill and 50 years of misery [the pill kills!]
The dawn of demonic deception [the birth control pill]
Researcher finds strong link between contraception and HIV
The Birth-Control Riddle
Social Science Proves Humanae Vitae
"Contraception Is Wrong. Now Here's How You Use It . . ."
Suit claims birth control warning not enough
Natural and Unnatural (father of 5 shocks mother of 1)
Planned Parenthood Uses Teens to Distribute Injectable Birth Control in Rural Ecuador
Study: Low-Dose Birth Control Pills Decrease Bone Density in Young Women
Spanish drug agency confirms grave effects of morning-after pill
Another Woman Dies of Hormonal Contraceptive in Switzerland
Study Finds Half of Women on "Birth Control Shot" Suffer Bone Problems
The Re-Birth of Population Control: Human Life Seen as a Carbon roblem
Radio Replies First Volume - Birth Control
Abortion, birth control pill linked to breast cancer, surgeon says
God before contraception (Australia)
Fighting the 'contraceptive mentality'
Birth control pill creator regrets population decline
Polluted Water, Polluted Culture (one more consequence from contraception)
Abortifacients -- The Other Forbidden Grief
NFP and Contraception: Whats the Difference?
Wisconsin requiring Catholic institutions to provide contraceptives coverage
Contraception: The history you may have missed and would rather not know
Why does Pope Benedict talk about Humanae vitae in the new encyclical? [Catholic Caucus]
New Evangelical Documentary Exposes Abortifacient Qualities of the Birth Control Pill, Promotes NFP
In Quiverfull Movement, Birth Control Is Shunned
Press in a Dither Again over Popes Reaffirmation of Catholic Teaching
How Birth Control Changed America for the Worst
If You Are Contracepting, You Are Part of A Very Big Problem
Vatican and Italian government criticize sale of RU 486 in Italy
New Condom Ads Target Catholics, Latinos
St. Padre Pio, Humanae Vitae, and Mandatory Abortion
Responsible Parenthood in a Birth Control Culture, Part Two [Open]
Responsible Parenthood in a Birth Control Culture, Part One [Open]
Humanae Vitae and True Sexual Freedom Part 6 of 6 [Open]
Contraception v. Natural Family Planning Part 5 of 6 [Open]
Sex Speaks: True and False Prophets Part 4 of 6 [Open]
Contraception and the Language of the Body Part 3 of 6 [Open]
Does Contraception Foster Love? Part 2 of 6 [Open]
Contraception and Cultural Chaos Part 1 of 6 [Open]
Priests still suffering from effects of Humanae Vitae dissenters, Vatican cardinal says (Must read!)
"Provoking reflection" (Contrasting views on Humanae Vitae)
Humanae Vitae The Year of the Peirasmòs - 1968
Catholics to Pope: Lift the Birth Control Ban
[OPEN] The Vindication of Humanae Vitae
Catholic Clergy Challenge Colleagues to Reacquaint Themselves and Their People with Humanae Vitae
White House proposes wide "conscience clause" on abortion, contraception
THE EX CATHEDRA STATUS OF THE ENCYCLICAL "HUMANAE VITAE" [Catholic Caucus]
A degrading poison that withers life
Australia Study: 70 Percent of Women Seeking Abortions Used Contraception
[Fr. Thomas Euteneuer] In Persona Christi: The Priest and Contraception
A Challenging Truth, Part Two: The Day the Birth Control Died
A Challenging Truth, Part One: How Birth Control Works
Ten Challenges for the Pro-Life Movement in 2008
The concept of the "intrinsically evil"
Pope Tells Pharmacists Not to Dispense Drugs With 'Immoral urposes'
Massive Study Finds the Pill Significantly Increases Cancer Risk if Used more than Eight Years
Birth Control Pill Creates Blood Clot Causing Death of Irish Woman
Seminarians Bring Churchs Teaching on Contraception, Sexuality to YouTube
Abortion and Contraception: Old Lies
History of Catholic teaching on Contraception
Pope: Legislation "Supporting Contraception and Abortion is Threatening the Future of Peoples"
Contraception: Why It's Wrong
On Fox News Fearless HLI Priest Takes on Sean Hannity (may be indebted for saving his soul)
VIDEO - SEAN HANNITY vs REV. THOMAS EUTENEUER (must see!)
The Early Church Fathers on Contraception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Pope on divine love vs. erotic love
Conjugal Love and Procreation: God's Design
Being fruitful [Evangelicals and contraception]
nothing for nothing here.
The more a cleric praises the fruits of Vatican II, the more likely that he is one.
Yes.. As in the religious ceremony of marriage of matrimony. Different from going down to the courthouse and signing some paperwork. A marriage by a judge down at the courthouse isn’t a valid Catholic marriage.
And I think that the Church might shift a little leftward on this because both the Vatican spokesperson and Marini I have endorsed some type of civil unions. Plus, there is enough evidence to suggest Bergoglio saw this as a totally licit compromise position in Argentina. There is no way that gay people are going to be shunned from modern society so it would make sense to separate legal civil benefits from a religious sacrament. It allows the Church to fight on purely religious freedom grounds. Establishing the separation gives the Church a valid defense when a gay couple inevitably sues the Catholic Church on civil rights grounds because they are denied a church wedding.
Same deal as with the HHS mandate. Dolan is on stronger grounds demanding a robust conscience exception than demanding that no plans cover birth control.
Ummm... really not seeing much from the UCCB protesting the anniversary of Griswold and demanding that birth control be banned. In contrast, there is a whole lot of stuff about Roe and abortion. So it seems to me that the U.S. Catholic Church thinks this is more of a religious matter.
LOL, good question. Basically, yes. The understanding of the joy of sex as a foretaste of the contemplation of the Divine Life tells us that in matters of sex, as in matters of holiness, a compromise with our lower instinct is impossible. Just like a saint cannot every once in a while burgle ATM machines, a chaste man or woman cannot indulge their sexual appetite outside of marriage. Now, liturgical life is likewise a foretaste of Life Divine, and much be pure for the same reason.
Remove the Catholic understanding of theosis as purpose of life, and you become Protestant. Both liturgy and chastity become without purpose: there is no life long infused justification, but instead one is either saved or not saved, by faith alone, once and for all. The Protestant mind then seeks not an opportunity for personal sacrifice applied to the Cross, but a scriptural prooftext. So some are convinced both about liturgy and about chastity one way or another based on what prooftexts they find and like. So not that liturgical deafness causes same sex marriage, but they are two consequences of the same error, salvation by faith alone once. How exactly the two consequences combine is rather a random toss, like if you put a bullet through a vase the fragments will have random shapes.
You forget that the earlier liturgy was simply abandoned by the reformers, even though many, perhaps a majority Catholics preferred it. Old habits die hard, like-long tastes, not easily changed. And in a hierarchial church, the reform minded among the lower clergy who did not abandon their calling were much taken with experimentation. This regardless of what the less up-to-date laity thought about the matter. Plus much great art was simply put away, for the new puritanism came from two directions: a preference for the banal or a liking for the grotestque.
But when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, "Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; with respect to the hope and the resurrection of the dead I am on trial." Acts 23:6Also, one of the most well-known texts in the Bible (John 3:16) was a quote from Jesus in answer to a number of questions he answered in a discussion he was having with a truly seeking and believing Pharisee named Nicodemus.
Jesus had a problem with the hypocritical Pharisees, not all of them.
(By the way, do you think it is a good idea to employ provocatively dressed young dancing women during a Celebration of the Mass, or do you think that is legitimately labeled a liturgical abuse, for ALL Catholics?)
And while it is a worthy goal to try to bring as many people as possible into Church to try to help them to find the Way, the Truth, and the Life, the numbers themselves are not the main focus.
If the criteria for judging an outcome of a religious effort is simply the numbers responding to that effort, you would have to say that the huge "mega-churches" are superior to most Catholic Churches, as they seem to attract many more attendees.
Following that same kind of fallacious reasoning, you would have to say that Barack Obama was the best choice for President of the United States in 2008 and 2012 because he (ostensibly) received the most votes out of all those who were running for that office those two years. Do you believe that he is the best choice to be President of the United States since more people voted for him and approve of the way he does things?
Jesus started His Church with a very tiny minority of follwers - most people alive back then did not follow Him then either. When He died, the majority of people alive at that time STILL did not follow Him then either - only a tiny minority. You cannot measure the "right way" by the numbers. It doesn't work that way.
(Unless you want to call Jesus Christ a liar, when He said the following.)
Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few." Matthew 7:13-14Do you think that just because the majority of people alive today want to persist in their sins and do not want to change their wicked ways, that the Church of Jesus Christ should say, "That's okay", and embrace and endorse their sinful behaviors, or do you think we should be trying to say, "Go, and sin no more", as Jesus Christ clearly commanded?
What the Church believes, teaches, and supports often is not reflected in what they demand be enacted in the civil law.
Do you believe what the Bible and the Catechism of the Catholic Church both teach - that homosexual acts are gravely disordered and sinful, even though the Church does not propose a civil law outlawing homosexual acts? Do you believe the Church should stop opposing all such homosexual acts, just because so many people these days engage in them?
Civil unions are the first step on the slippery slope. I supported it initially as a sop, but the gaymafia have revealed their true agenda — first civil unions then a demand for marriage, then forcing everyone to support their perversion
Evangelical Christians are very much against same sex marriage last time I checked. They are also against sex outside marriage. The only difference is that Protestants generally allow birth control. But even some followers of the fundamentalist sects (like the creepy Duggars) are against that.
I don’t care if people want to go to a Traditional Latin Mass as long as TPTB scrub all the anti-Semitism out of the Latin missal. However, many TLM types tend to be very self-righteous in their beliefs. Theirs is the only Mass that is valid despite the fact that the new post Vatican II is also licit. I think that the prime example of this is the feet washing non-controversy. The Pharisees-R-Us wing of the Church spent time screaming about how this would lead to lady priests and missed the entire point of the Pope’s lesson.
I’m fine with them having their Mass as long as they don’t act as long as they aren’t scolds to the rest of us.
The Church also doesn’t demand that atheists are punished for their beliefs.
“First of all, don’t be too quick to bash all the Pharisees. Most of the “Books” of the New Testament were written by a Pharisee, and most of the non-Gospel New Testament readings you hear in most of your Spanish Masses were written by a Pharisee (St. Paul).”
Yes.. I know who St Paul is... Catholic school girl here. I also know that Paul had a conversion on the Road of Damascus and spent his life ministering to the Gentiles. He criticized St. Peter for saying that Gentiles should have to convert to Judaism and follow Jewish dietary laws, etc. before they would be welcomed in the Church.
“Also, one of the most well-known texts in the Bible (John 3:16) was a quote from Jesus in answer to a number of questions he answered in a discussion he was having with a truly seeking and believing Pharisee named Nicodemus.”
And that passage speaks of being born again.
“Jesus had a problem with the hypocritical Pharisees, not all of them.”
And He would definitely have a problem with “theological narcissism” today. The lady foot washing controversy? Arguments over phrases in the Missal? Sounds the Pharisees’ horror over Jesus healing on the Sabbath or eating with prostitutes and tax collectors.
“(By the way, do you think it is a good idea to employ provocatively dressed young dancing women during a Celebration of the Mass, or do you think that is legitimately labeled a liturgical abuse, for ALL Catholics?)”
I’m assuming that we’re talking about JPII-Marini I Masses. They were African dancers.. Geez. However, I do think that Marini I (and JPII, who was after all an actor,) were enamored with turning Mass into a Broadway production. I’d prefer something lower key, but I don’t think that this is what we should hyperventilate about.
(BTW.. I don’t think that Marini I Broadway productions are coming back under Francis. It seems to me that Francis prefers simple, short Masses and that he really likes giving homilies.)
“And while it is a worthy goal to try to bring as many people as possible into Church to try to help them to find the Way, the Truth, and the Life, the numbers themselves are not the main focus. “
The Church has been bleeding members for the last forty years. It would make sense to figure out why people walked away from the religion that they were raised in. I’m thinking that a huge reason why is the liturgy wars.
“If the criteria for judging an outcome of a religious effort is simply the numbers responding to that effort, you would have to say that the huge “mega-churches” are superior to most Catholic Churches, as they seem to attract many more attendees.”
Well, they are doing something right if they are getting people to attend a church service on Sunday. I think that the difference between a Catholic parish and a Evangelical megachurch is that Protestant Evangelicals are very open and very expressive about their faith. They live out their faith on a daily basis. Catholics tend to be very insular and inward focusing. I’ve felt more welcome at many Protestant churches when I attend with friends than when I attend Catholic Mass.
I think that Pope Francis was really right in his diagnosis of the root cause of the Catholic Church’s decline. There has been too much navel gazing. It is time to stop arguing about the proper form of the Mass and start living our faith in our daily actions with each other.
“Do you think that just because the majority of people alive today want to persist in their sins and do not want to change their wicked ways, that the Church of Jesus Christ should say, “That’s okay”, and embrace and endorse their sinful behaviors, or do you think we should be trying to say, “Go, and sin no more”, as Jesus Christ clearly commanded?”
I also remember rendering onto Caesar what is Caesar and God what is God’s? God is also big on Free Will.
I know. My point was, that Bible Alone approach is an unpredictable random process: some Protestant sects get some aspects of sexual morality right and others wrong, and some Protestant sects get some aspects of liturgy right and others wrong. That is because they lack theological tools to understand sexuality and liturgy.
“The Church has been bleeding members for the last forty years. It would make sense to figure out why people walked away from the religion that they were raised in. Im thinking that a huge reason why is the liturgy wars.
People walked away because it became evident that many priests did not believe what they had been telling their congregations.
**They live out their faith on a daily basis.**
It’s sounding like you might be Catholic, but an inactive Catholic.
It has been my experience that Catholics live out their faith on a daily basis far more than non Catholics.
I can even cite personal references. I asked a non Catholic to help me with my oven six years ago. This person is an electrician and still hasn’t made it to my house.
I asked for a ride to church when I couldn’t drive due to medication and a fellow Catholic was right there for me.
I was laid up while recovering from a hip replacement and it was Catholics who brought me food for two weeks.
When I got dehydrated, I called a fellow Catholic, rather than a non-Catholic to come over to my house and get a fan for me since I was so hot. When she got to my house, I was under the covers shivering about ready to go into heat stroke. She called the ambulance for me and then called my daughter.
Of course not - the Church does not demand that ANYBODY be punished for their beliefs.
However, do you think the Church should tell atheists that atheism is fine, or do you think the Church should do whatever they can to show atheists that atheism is 100% wrong, and that the atheists should turn away from their false beliefs, and turn to God?
All sinners are (of course) welcomed into the Church. They must fully renounce all their sins before they can become Catholics, or receive absolution if they are already Catholics.
Now after Saul/Paul had that conversion on the road to Damascus, he wrote this to the Corinthians:
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.Paul was not writing this just to be friendly, like discussing the weather or something. He was warning these sinners that if they did not repent and turn away from their sinful ways, they were going to hell.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
We should NOT endorse or approve of homosexual "civil unions" or any other thing that would indicate approval of any kind of sinful behavior that will send people to hell. St. Paul certainly didn't - that's why he wrote that to the Corinthians.
"And that passage speaks of being born again."
Right, and being born again means turning from your sinful ways - not persisting in them, either in homosexual "civil unions" or in any other way, and all Catholics should promote that all of us sinners turn from our evil ways, not persist in them.
"Im assuming that were talking about JPII-Marini I Masses. They were African dancers.. Geez. However, I do think that Marini I (and JPII, who was after all an actor,) were enamored with turning Mass into a Broadway production. Id prefer something lower key, but I dont think that this is what we should hyperventilate about."
It is not a good idea to assume anything. What flowed out of that were many liturgical abuses in many different parishes (some of which I've personally witnessed) including provocatively dressed women dancing during the Mass a number of times. That is one example of a liturgical abuse during the Holy Mass. There are many others - just do a seach on "liturgical abuses" to see many of them.
"Well, they are doing something right if they are getting people to attend a church service on Sunday."
Well, the Sunday NFL football games get many more people in than the mega-churches, and like the mega-churches, they are also geared more for entertainment, not full spiritual well-being.
"I also remember rendering onto Caesar what is Caesar and God what is Gods? God is also big on Free Will."
Of course God gives us free will, and values it, but God does not want to use that free will to sin. Do you think that it somehow means we Catholics should then endorse sinful behaviors that will end up sending people to hell, just because the government says it is okay to do those sinful behaviors? For example, if the State of Nevada legalizes prostitution (which it has), do you think that the Catholic Church should then support prostitution for those sinners who engage in it, or should the Church unequivocally advise those people to turn away from those sins?
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