Skip to comments.Elder Bruce R. McConkie’s Son Shares His Father’s Legacy [Lds leader taught controversial teachings]
Posted on 05/06/2013 10:17:36 AM PDT by Colofornian
...Bruce R. McConkie was a boy growing up in Monticello, Utah...
...the son grew to be a member of the Quorum of the Twelve from 1972 until his death in 1985, well respected and remembered for his written and spoken discourses in which he taught the doctrines of the gospel with clarity and power.
The above...was recounted by Elder McConkies son Joseph Fielding McConkie on April 11 in an address in the Assembly Hall on Temple Square in Salt Lake City for the monthly Men and Women of Faith Lecture Series sponsored by the Church History Library. His topic was Bruce R. McConkie: A Special Witness.
At his funeral, then Elder Boyd K. Packer [of the Quorum of the Twelve] said, If ever there was a man who was raised up unto a very purpose, if ever a man was prepared against a certain day and need, it was Bruce R. McConkie."
A valid and binding testimony of Christ grows out of a sound understanding of the Restoration. You cannot get to Gethsemane without going through the Sacred Grove.
Brother McConkie said his father drew freely from what became known as the Joseph Smith Translation in his own writings, including Mormon Doctrine, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, and the six-volume work beginning with The Promised Messiah and concluding with The Millennial Messiah.
He recalled his fathers address at a 1979 BYU symposium on the Doctrine and Covenants in which he said, The test of discipleship is how totally and completely and fully we believe the word that was revealed through Joseph Smith and how effectively we echo or proclaim that word to the world.
It was the doctrine upon which Dad was raised, Brother McConkie commented. It was the doctrine on which he raised his own children.
(Excerpt) Read more at lds.org ...
1) This is published in LDS Church News. So it's a direct 2013 endorsement of what this church's "apostle" taught in his lifetime.
(2) This address by McConkie's son, Joseph, was given April 11, 2013 in the Assembly Hall on Temple Square in Salt Lake City for the monthly Men and Women of Faith Lecture Series sponsored by the Church History Library. (Yet a second direct current endorsement by the Lds church)
Q Was Christ always deity from eternity past?
A "Christ ATTAINED Godhood while yet in pre-existence..." (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 323)
Note: When you attain something; 'twas something Lds deny to Jesus.
Q Was Christ a saved being?
A "Christ is a saved being (Lds "apostle" McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p 257); * "Christ's rise to the throne of exaltation was preceded by his descent below all things. Only by submitting to the powers of demons and death and hell could he, in the resurrection, serve as our exemplar of a SAVED BEING... (McConkie and Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon, vol. 1, p. 234) Please also see... * McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p. 238 where he said the Mormon "jesus" "Needs salvation...Came to earth to work out His own salvation) and * McConkie, "The Seven Deadly Heresies,' in Speeches of the Year, 1980 [Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 1981] p. 78 where he said: "There was only one perfect being, the Lord Jesus. If men had to be perfect and live all of the law strictly, wholly, and completely, there would be only one saved person in eternity." [cited in Come, Follow Me: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide 1983 (1983) p. 72]
Q Was Christ's blood anemic, or does it cover ALL of our sins?
A "Man may commit certain grievous sins--according to his light and knowledge--that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be save he must make sacrifice of his own life to atone-- so far as in his power lies -- for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail." (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 93). So much for the power of Christ's blood to cover sins per Mormonism! *
Note: 'Twas EXACTLY this type of Mormon leader thinking that led Brigham Young into his theory of blood atonement, which he taught and which the Mormon church has never declared to be a false teaching. [They've just ignored it, and hoped it would simply go away] Young's theory of blood atonement is what led to the practice of men shedding their blood sometimes at the instigation of local Mormon leaders for certain sins.
Q What did McConkie say about Christians, the Christian church, and their beliefs about Jesus, etc?
A "And virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pg.269).
The Christ of Christianity is 'mythical' per an Lds "apostle"? And Mormons imagine that they haven't somehow wielded a direct attack upon Christians worldwide? May I remind Mormons that Lds continued to publish McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine" book? (The Mormon church got ahold of the direct copyright, acquiring it from Bookcraft, and then publishing it under its direct ownership umbrella -- Deseret Book Publishing -- in 1993) McConkie's book was published/republished under 7, count 'em 7, Mormon "prophets" (McKay, Lee, Kimball, Benson, Hunter, Hinckley, Monson). Only McKay conveyed strongly that alterations needs to be forthcoming after the initial edition, and revisions were made...but not enough to keep from embarrassing the Mormon faithful ever since!
Cont'd next post...
A McConkie, 1966: Three separate personages--the Father, Son and Holy Ghost--comprise the Godhead...To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only gods we worship." (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 567-577, 1966 edition)
McConkie, 1982 BYU devotional: We worship the Father and him only and no one else we do not worship the Holy Ghost. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.
Note: How could the Mormons flip on how many gods they worship in 16 short years? [Note: MOST Mormons will claim they also worship Jesus...tho they tend to be silent on whether they worship the Holy Spirit or not]
Why did McConkie reduce the number of Gods to be worshiped? Well, even tho both the Bible and Book of Mormon REPEATEDLY talk about worshiping Jesus, McConkie just had trouble navigating around another of Joseph Smith's revelations:
In that infamous 1982 BYU devotional, McConkie cited Doctrine & Covenant 20:17-19 as his justification: And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be THE ONLY BEING whom they should worship
(You see, most of those Mormons who worship the Mormon Jesus wind up having to take a pair of figurative scissors to D&C 20:17-19 & just ignore it!)
McConkie, when speaking @ that BYU devotional, then after citing D&C 20, added: I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshiping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense--the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.
Q What is McConkie's "take" on "friendship" with Jesus? Is he for it (pro)? Or is he against it? (anti)
A Let's pull three phrases out from beginning to near the end of his 1982 BYU devotional so that you can see he was consistent and that Im not departing from his overall consistent theme:
#1 In an effort to be truer than true they devote themselves to gaining a special, personal relationship with Christ that is both improper and perilous.
#2 Now I know that some may be offended at the counsel that they should not strive for a special and personal relationship with Christ
#3 It is a fine and sacred line, but clearly there is a difference between a personal and intimate relationship with the Lord, which is improper
Note: Never mind that I didnt finish these McConkie sentences because I want you to place yourself in that BYU audience back then because as soon as you hear these consistent phrases, your mind is spinning you dont even hear everything else he says cause hes just pronounced a personal and intimate relationship with the Lord as improper, as perilous, fringe, & as anti-general authority counsel.
His whole overtone of his message was...
(a) IF you dont embrace worship for God the Father alone...
(b) IF you dont stop seeking a personal, special, and intimate relationship with Jesus Christ; and stop praying and worshiping Jesus...
(c) THEN youre outside the mainstream of the church; youre ignoring the counsel of the charter of the church; youre not falling in with the only people who have the true worship patterns down pat...
(d) AND youre either an erring teacher or a beguiled student who needs to repent according to the ACCEPTED gospel verities as I shall set them forth
Wow! What a "my way or the highway" kind of message he gave!
Not only that but McConkie added I wonder if it is not part of Lucifer's system to make people feel they are special friends of Jesus when in fact they are not following the normal and usual pattern of worship found in the true Church There is no other way, no other approved system of worship...Those who truly love the Lord and who worship the Father in the name of the Son by the power of the Spirit, according to the approved patterns...
IOW, ONLY the McConkie Mormon stamp of approval upon your specific worship pattern will do [and we'll look further @ what that pattern actually is!]
A "Obviously the holy practice (of polygamy) will commence again after the Second Coming of the Son of Man and the ushering in of the millennium." (LDS apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966 edition, see pp. 577-579 for context)
Q How did McConkie describe the birth of Jesus and the involvement of the Father's role in impregnating Mary?
A Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says. (McConkie Mormon Doctrine, p. 742, 1966)
"Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (LDS apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 547.)
Now, just to ensure McConkie knows the angle of which he is speaking, he re-emphasized this literalness of whats he talking about:
We have spoke PLAINLY of our Lords conception in the womb of Mary. I am the son of my father and the father of my sons. They are my sons because they were begotten by me, were conceived by their mother, and came forth from her womb to breathe the breath of mortal life, to dwell for a time and a season among other mortal men. And so it is with the Eternal Father and the mortal birth of the Eternal Son. The Father is a Father is a Father
And the Son is a Son is a Son
a literal, living offspring from an actual Father. God is the Father; Christ is the Son. The one begat the other. Mary provided the womb from which the Spirit Jehovah came forth, tabernacled in clay, as all men are, to dwell among his fellow spirits whose births were brought to pass in like manner. There is no need to spiritualize away the plain meaning of the scriptures. There is nothing figurative or hidden or beyond comprehension in our Lords coming into mortality. He is the Son of God in the same sense and way that we are the sons of mortal fathers. It is that simple. Christ was born of Mary. He is the Son of Godthe Only Begotten of the Father. (McConkie, The Promised Messiah, pp. 467-468, 1978 )
A "There is no such thing as gaining salvation from a false god, or by conforming to a false plan of salvation, or through membership in a false church." (Lds Official magazine Ensign (Conference edition), "The Caravan Moves On," Nov.1984, p. 83)
IOW, McConkie regarded all non-Mormon Christian disciples...
...(those who reject Joseph Smith as a prophet/those who reject his "sacred grove" first vision)
...as being invalid disciples.
Yup...when ya wanna see the Mormon church chosen “face” of Mormonism from the 60s thru the mid-80s...McConkie was it...
What does even mean?
Oh, wait. “sacred grove”, the first vision...duh?
What version of the fourteen first visions is he talking about?
You cannot get to Gethsemane without going through the Sacred Grove
What does even mean?
McConkie was talking about a key Mormon "filter"
To the Mormon, the centerpiece of their religion isn't the cross.
Even Gethsemane, where Christ prayed and where Mormons think Jesus "atoned" for their sins (as if Jesus said, "Pick up your garden and follow me") isn't "first place."
The centerpoints for Mormonism is (a) Moroni the angel [hence it's an angel on their temples -- NOT the cross); and (b) it's the grove where Joseph Smith said some unnamed beings appeared to him when he was a teenager.
In some accounts, he said he was 14; other accounts, age 16. [Yeah, would YOU believe some pimply-faced teen who couldn't remember how old he was when two unnamed personages "appeared" to him?]
Btw, an interesting aside is that in the Old Testament, groves are constantly referenced as false worship centers as used by pagans.
So, just as the "grove" was the centerpiece of Old Testament pagans, "the grove" becomes the replacement for Christianity for Mormonism. (They call it "the restoration")
You omitted one McConkie's most famous fundamental teachings:
In the pre-existent eternity various degrees of valiance and devotion to the truth were exhibited by different groups of our Father's spirit offspring. One-third of the spirit hosts of heaven came out in open rebellion and were cast out without bodies, becoming the devil and his angels. The other two-thirds stood affirmatively for Christ: there were no neutrals. To stand neutral in the midst of war is a philosophical impossibility.As you know, McConkie was the author of Mormon Doctrine: A Compendium of the Gospel. Written in 1958, published by Deseret Books, edited and rewritten many times over the years as new embarrassments for the church came to light, finally abandoned a few years ago, McConkie's tome remains a delightsome reference on Mormonism and its ever-changing beliefs.
Of the two-thirds who followed Christ, however, some were more valiant than others. Those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during mortality are known to us as the negroes.
Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty.
The present status of the negro rests purely and simply on the foundation of pre-existence. Along with all races and peoples he is receiving here what he merits as a result of the long pre-mortal probation in the presence of the Lord. The principle is the same as will apply when all men are judged according to their mortal works and are awarded varying statuses in the life hereafter.
Horne, Dennis B. (2000). Bruce R. McConkie: Highlights From His Life & Teachings. Eborn Books. ISBN 1-890718-01-7
Smith made at least four versions himself...one he dictated to FG Williams in 1832; two diaries -- one recorded via Warren Cowdery in 1835 & the other in Smith's own handwriting; then Smith wrote an 1841 letter to the Chicago Democrat describing it...then there's the "official" version as recorded in Lds "scriptures" -- found in the Pearl of Great Price.
By comparison, we also can see what the 2nd & 3rd Lds "prophets" (Brigham Young & John Taylor), along with another General Authority (George A. Smith), also said about what Smith told them.
So how old was Smith at the supposed time of the vision?
No age is given in the 1841 letter, but he said he was age 15 in his own handwritten diary. What he dictated to Williams in 1832 was that he was "14 or 16". The Pearl of Great Price says age 14, as does Smith's diary via Cowdery. Young, Taylor, and George Smith say Joseph was 15.
In the "official" Pearl of Great Price version, Smith asks a question to the personages. But NONE of the Smith versions he either wrote or dictated mention such a question.
How many personages appeared to Smith?
In the 'official' version, TWO. In the 1835 and 1841 versions, also TWO.
But in the 1832 version and his own handwritten diary, only ONE appears -- and a "Father" was not mentioned. Nor do Brigham Young, John Taylor, and George A. Smith reference a second personage...no mention of either the Father OR Jesus.
The Tanners make an excellent composite 19th century general authority picture of the First Vision by citing how many of them thought only an angel appeared to Joseph Smith...You see the "official" version didn't kick in til much later in the 19th century.
I had one other thing to attend to...and knew if I took the xtra 5-10 minutes, it'd delay posting this article & I figured I could eventually follow up.
But I ALSO thought at the time...oh, somebody will contribute this aspect of McConkie (& perhaps others)...and your moniker actually passed thru my brain as one of those potential contributors...and sure enough, you came thru (as usual).
When McConkie was proved to be a racist fool by the 1978 "revelation" the Mormon leaders had toward blacks, he uttered:
"Forget everything I have said, or what...Brigham Young...or whomsoever has said...that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world."
Source: Bruce R. McConkie, New Revelation on Priesthood, Priesthood (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1981), 126-137, esp. 126-127. Note: This was the published date of this quote; McConkie supposedly first uttered it tho in August, 1978...about two months post-new revelation by Lds "prophet" Kimball.
So...Mormons...take McConkie's advice to heart: Forget EVERYTHING Mormon leaders have told you. Because the true Jesus Christ Himself is the Ultimate Revelation. His presence, when He returns. will be the Ultimate Light; the Ultimate Knowledge. And everything the Mormon leaders have taught will turn into a pillar of salt that will blow away in the Holy Spirit's wind.
The Mormons' leaders light & knowledge & understanding was limited by the bondage of their own rituals & legalism. As McConkie said, "Forget EVERYTHING I have said..."
Smith made at least four versions himself ... then there's the "official" version as recorded in Lds "scriptures" ... we also can see what the 2nd & 3rd Lds "prophets" (Brigham Young & John Taylor), along with another General Authority (George A. Smith), also said about what Smith told them.
Left to right: Mark Hofmann, 1st Counselor N. Eldon Tanner,
LDS President Spencer W. Kimball, 2nd Counselor Marion
G. Romney, Apostle Boyd K. Packer and Apostle Gordon B.
And there's the version found in the Salamander Letter where Joseph told Martin Harris that he was visited by an elf that took the form of a white salamander. Personally, based on Gerald Tanner's expert opinion, I never did believe that the letter was valid, even though it was pronounced true by the above LDS Authorities.
In light of the LDS Church still celebrating McConkie's teachings in its...
...in its 2013 church history department,
...in its 2013 "Church News"...
...Ask yourself, "Why do I tell myself that the 'official' church doesn't embrace these things anymore?"
..."Why do I think they are just false mumblings from yesteryear that have grown obsolete when not only does the current Lds church leadership NOT declare ANY of these McConkie quotes as false, deceptive, misleading; BUT, they actually go on honoring McConkie and everything he stood for in this very Spring season of this very calendar year?"
For you non-Mormons, what this means is:
That the Mormons you encounter who give $ to the church wind up paying for the nonsense contained in these quotes to remain alive as "official" Mormon church endorsements. When current Lds leadership refuses to label them as false, and in fact, elevate & exalt McConkie himself in April 2013 official church venues...
...that says it all that your average tithing Mormon is guilty of...
...supplying the coffers for which false teachings continue to be circulated...
...well after their leaders are placed in a coffin.
Where US highway 666 either started or ended - before being changed to US491
Jesus Christ is Gods Son, spiritually and physically.
He calls Him Father, He prays to Him.
And; one cannot get to Heaven without going thru Joseph Smith; either!!
They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.Who has made this so?Have I?Have this people?Have the world?No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.Can you pass without his inspection?No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?
--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224
Smooth, level, balanced, nonfluctuating...
These guys are ganging up on me!!
—MormonDude(Gotta go.... here comes ELSIE!)
Why isn't the Lds church able to distance itself more from Bruce McConkie & his controversial teachings, now that he's been deceased these 28 or so years?
(1) Many of these things are, after all, pure Mormon doctrine. McConkie was just more blunt and less suave in how he presented them to the public.
(2) McConkie himself was "honored" thruout his life as an "Lds apostle" -- receiving a great eulogy at his funeral from fellow "apostle" Packer -- pictured in the Hofmann photo posted by Zakeet. And McConkie's father-in-law, Joseph Fielding Smith, was a "prophet" in the Mormon church; and Joseph Fielding Smith was the grandson of Hyrum Smith, brother to Joseph Smith. So McConkie was the son-in-law of the great nephew of Joseph Smith. (High pedigree pedestal)
(3) McConkie's son, who made this speech (Joseph Fielding McConkie), is an emeritus professor of Ancient Scripture at BYU; per Wikipedia, J.F. McConkie has authored and co-authored over 25 books & "speaks regularly at LDS gatherings." How do you straight-arm Bruce R. & avoid offending his offspring, associates, relatives & grassroots Mormons who have heard these McConkies speak?
(4) Another thing that Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce Redd McConkie had in common besides Bruce's wife, Amelia Smith, being Joseph Fielding Smith's daughter is that there were few true "compilers" being among the Lds High Quorum beyond these two.
They both came across as the "Book of Mormon/D&C/PoGP" answer men in their books & articles. Few others even tried to wade thru what Walter Martin accurately described as "the Maze of Mormonism" to piece together the multi-storied contradictory teachings of the Mormon church.
McConkie, after all, had the audacity to even write a book called "Mormon Doctrine." (Who else in Lds leadership would have done that?)
How can the Mormon church declare this unique attempted systematizer of the Mormon religion a false teacher?
It can't. It's stuck 'tween a rock & a hard place. And so. They just hope. And pray. That people won't read the Internet to see what McConkie taught.
They just hope and pray that since they put these articles in the...
..."LDS Church News" for the Mormon insiders
...vs. in the Deseret News for both Mormon insiders and non-Mormon outsiders...
...that reminders about McConkie's quotes won't be resurrected.
(Yet another reason why Free Republic exists)
Yet here's the Mormon quandrum: "And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be THE ONLY BEING whom they should worship (D&C 20:17)
Doesn't the designation of Profit, Seer and Revelator apply to every member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles including Apostle McConkie?
If so, don't the designations mean that McConkie received revelations directly from Mormonism's god ... and spoke directly on behalf of Mormonism's god as a prophet ... and had enough foresight to be inerrant?
How then can the Mormon Church possibly distance itself from such an individual and his teachings without admitting that the man was indeed a false prophet (as well as all of his colleagues who proclaimed himself as such) ... and/or that Mormonism worships a false god ... and/or that Mormonism is a false religion? Please explain.
True Christianity preaches the cross of Christ.
The lds-org denies that Jesus is the Creator, that everything was created THROUGH Him, BY Him and FOR Him.
They deny that Jesus created even the angels out of nothing.
They do NOT teach the truth about Jesus.
The lds-org denies that Jesus is the Creator,
that everything was created THROUGH Him, BY Him and FOR Him.
They deny Jesus created the angels and the universe out of nothing.
“...anyone who had a question on anything got little personalized messages from God through Joseph Smith:
“Oliver Cowdery has confusion on what color shirt to wear, Joseph Smith goes to the Lord and the Lord’s will is revealed.....
“My son Oliver, hearken and hear and behold what I the Lord God shall say unto you: I the Lord God would have you wear the blue shirt, yea even the bluest shirt, you are my son and blessed are you that believe...”
O, the burning in the bosom is upon me......and a Merry Smithmas to all!
Colofornian: Oh, for God’s sake. Let’s go back into the lives of every Pope and find out exactly what they talked about with their families and every word they uttered when lying in bed and when they spoke with their mothers about private things. And let’s dig into their past and find poetry they’ve written and we want to know every book they’ve ever read. Why even Mother Theresa herself admitted that she had doubts. Let’s find out all of the Popes’ doubts and dreams and private thoughts, especially about how they treated their sisters and if they had any kind of sex - before and after they became Pope.
Since you are hell bent on trying to discredit and disgrace the LdS servants of God, why not at least be fair. Go after the Popes, why don’t you? I’ll bet you could dig up some real dirt.
These weren't published as "revelations" from God, circulated at large & sold for a profit -- as McConkie did, right?
They not be the only ones with this lack of discernment...
D13: Oh, for Joseph's sake. Let's try ANYTHING to redirect the thread away from MORMON doctrines that we can't figger out and blast them Catholics instead.
But, D; it's so EASY!!
All we have to do is to reveal the very words they've spoken!
Heck; NONE of us are! They make us look like FOOLS for falling for the things they teach.
--MormonDude(Oooops! Did I type that out loud?)
They don’t claim to be prophets....
When the Prophet speaks, the debate is over
(Ensign, Nov. 1978
Are you saying we should not pay attention to the lds prophets, that is contradictory to lds teachings.
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
5157, Emma Smith is counseled (commanded) to be faithful and true; 5866, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.
51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to aprove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.
52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.
53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.
55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ahundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of beternal lives in the eternal worlds.
Hmmm...sounds like life in the anti-LDS/Mormon echo-chamber continues on unabbatted.
Have fun in there.
Since you are hell bent to defend these same people, why not come back with something a little stronger than simply trying to divert the issue? So if Colofornian dug up dirt on these Popes, how would that make the actions of the LDS "prophets" right?
In the space of about a dozen posts, we see two of the classic strategies of Mormon apologists: divert the issue or insult your opponents. Next will be either an attempt to obfuscate the issue or silence. I'm sure that it is hard to defend the indefensible but I pray that the Holy Spirit will use these discussions to open your eyes to see that you're on the wrong side of the argument and that you've been mislead by the LDS leaders.
Oops. Should be “misled” and not “mislead”.
#1...God counters falsehood with truth (so, of course, God doesn't leave Mormonism unchallenged)
#2...I don't oppose Mormon as a people...'tis the "ISM" of MormonISM
#3...Only those who don't want to listen to what the Spirit says would lump all He says -- and those thru whom He speaks -- as a "reductionism" of an "echo chamber"
(Even if you don't believe the Spirit is speaking thru us, as I don't for the Lds missionaries who come to my door, it wouldn't be very hospitable for me to label every single thing that diverse Mormon missionaries say to me as "an echo chamber." That would be entirely disrespectful toward the unique make-up of who that Mormon is.)
Then abate it, what words from lds sources are untrue?
I’ve never seen him ‘debate’.
He says what he believes and lets the chips fall where they may.
I can respect that.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
” Oh, for Gods sake. Lets go back into the lives of every Pope and find out exactly what they talked about with their families and every word they uttered when lying in bed and when they spoke with their mothers about private things.”
Brigham Young uttered this:
“Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;
and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,
and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.
Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)
I guess you better hope the libs win the gay marriage battle, that way you guys can bring back the everlasting covenant of polygamy and NOT go to hell after all!
“Brigham Young uttered this:”
Again, not LDS Scripture. Brigham Young was a great man, known as the “great colonizer” but a man, not perfect. There was only One Perfect who lived on this earth, Jesus Christ the Son of God, our Redeemer and Savior of all mankind. All the rest of us - including the Catholic Popes and Presidents/Prophets of the LDS Church - are just people - not divine.
But go ahead and try to besmirch dead men’s names. Just sad.