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Who does the Western Wall belong to?
The Jerusalem Post ^ | 5/6/2013 | LEAH AHARONI

Posted on 05/06/2013 5:51:53 PM PDT by Former Fetus

The Women of the Wall would have us believe that they are defending the Western Wall for everyone.

Considering that after 25 years and massive public relations efforts the group can hardly gather 100 women on a good month, the assertion sounds ludicrous.

Can you imagine so small a fringe group demanding to do as it pleases at the Vatican? Westminster Abbey? St.Patrick’s Cathedral in New York? Mecca? At any place of worship in the world? That’s not freedom of religion, that’s anarchy! The Women of the Wall can argue all they want that the Kotel is not a synagogue and has no tradition.

The claim is patently false.

There is a 1,700-year-long documented history of Jewish prayer along the Western Wall and at least 500 years of a prayer tradition at the current location. Lest you think the Jews prayed in the Reform fashion until the evil haredim (ultra-Orthodox) showed up and usurped the power, think again. There is ample photographic evidence to prove it.

The time has come to state the truth, simple and unadorned: The Western Wall doesn’t belong to the Women of the Wall. The Western Wall belongs to its 10 million visitors a year, who respect the sanctity and decorum of the site. The Western Wall belongs to millions of Jewish women and men, who come to pray here every day and oppose introducing any changes to the site. These people come to reaffirm their connection with the spiritual, to unburden themselves of their troubles, to reconnect with God on His terms, following the footsteps of their ancestors for generations.

(Excerpt) Read more at jpost.com ...


TOPICS: Judaism; Religion & Culture; Worship
KEYWORDS: haredim; kotel; westernwall; womenofthewall
Opinions, anybody?
1 posted on 05/06/2013 5:51:53 PM PDT by Former Fetus
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To: Former Fetus

The Jews.

King Solomon.

King David.

David took the land from the Jebusites.

David paid Arunan (sp) the Jebusite for the land.

The whole Temple Mount belongs to the Jews.

Flame away, anyone.


2 posted on 05/06/2013 5:53:41 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: Former Fetus
Opinions, anybody?

Remove all Muslims from the Temple Mount, and bulldoze the Dome of the Rock.

3 posted on 05/06/2013 5:54:21 PM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: PapaBear3625

I like your thinking!


4 posted on 05/06/2013 5:56:48 PM PDT by Red_Devil 232 (VietVet - USMC All Ready On The Right? All Ready On The Left? All Ready On The Firing Line!)
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To: F15Eagle; PapaBear3625

I agree, but that’s not what the article is all about. It is about whether or not women (the Women of the Wall) have the right to pray at the Wall wearing tefillot and tallitot.


5 posted on 05/06/2013 5:59:14 PM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: Former Fetus

I think that would be the outer court - but of course, when that temple goes up again .....

(thanks for the note)


6 posted on 05/06/2013 6:03:44 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: Former Fetus

I’m not Israeli. I’m not even Jewish. It’s not an issue I really care about, so I’m bowing out of this thread.


7 posted on 05/06/2013 6:03:56 PM PDT by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: Former Fetus

the WoW are a bunch of feminazis fighting the patriarchy. if they were legit, they’d be the womenof the Temple Mount, but they would give both away to Islamonazis


8 posted on 05/06/2013 6:06:40 PM PDT by hecht (america 9/11, Israel 24/7)
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To: Former Fetus

I agree, but that’s not what the article is all about

I just scanned the article but I guess I missed that part.


9 posted on 05/06/2013 6:06:43 PM PDT by mountainlion (Live well for those that did not make it back.)
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To: PapaBear3625

The Dome of the Rock is built on the site of Roman Stables.

It was the only place not knocked down by the Romans in the Jewish Revolt, because it was a Roman, not a Jewish building. When the Arabs took over, they built on it, not knowing that the foundation was Horse manure.


10 posted on 05/06/2013 6:09:16 PM PDT by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
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To: PapaBear3625

I’m not Israeli or Jewish, but I am interested in the attacks on organized religion by so-called feminists. I have been amazed by how easily churches that accept female ministers end up accepting homosexuality! I personally don’t know what to think of the haredim, but I will support anybody who defends traditional worship. Jewish or Christian.


11 posted on 05/06/2013 6:09:48 PM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: Former Fetus

The West?


12 posted on 05/06/2013 6:09:49 PM PDT by Paladin2
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To: Former Fetus

The Jews.


13 posted on 05/06/2013 6:20:15 PM PDT by combat_boots (The Lion of Judah cometh. Hallelujah. Gloria Patri, Filio et Spiritui Sancto!)
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To: donmeaker
I hadn't heard that about the Roman stables--but the city was Roman for a long time (Aelia Capitolina, after the emperor Hadrian's family name of Aelius). It would make sense that Mohammed's horse would take his launching spot from a horse stable, for the night trip to heaven.

Was the Western Wall built at the time of Ezra and Nehemiah, or by King Herod?

14 posted on 05/06/2013 6:25:35 PM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: donmeaker

Its fitting as the whole foundation of Islam is Horse pucky.


15 posted on 05/06/2013 6:35:20 PM PDT by American in Israel (A wise man's heart directs him to the right, but the foolish mans heart directs him toward the left.)
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To: Verginius Rufus

Solomon, King Davids son.


16 posted on 05/06/2013 6:36:13 PM PDT by American in Israel (A wise man's heart directs him to the right, but the foolish mans heart directs him toward the left.)
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To: Former Fetus

Our Creator owns everything..and He wills the who, what,where, when, why and how..


17 posted on 05/06/2013 6:40:28 PM PDT by delchiante
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To: Former Fetus
Traditional Jewish prayer - minyanim of men wearing tallitot, tefillot and kippot - has been performed at the Wall continually for at least 2500 years, if we assume that wall was only part of the Second Temple.

These feminist mockers have been engaging in this charade for 25 years, on and off.

The argument that consists of: "We highly respect all the external trappings of tradition - texts, garments, rites, gestures - but we want to use them in a way contrary to the entire history of that tradition" is nonsensical.

18 posted on 05/06/2013 6:40:36 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: Verginius Rufus

The current western wall is all that is left of Herod’s temple.

After the conversion of Constantine in the 4th Century, there was a lot of building that supported pilgrimage/tourism. Constintine’s mother (Helen) toured Jerusalem, and (knowing she was coming) the locals had a number of things that they helped her find. For example, three crosses were dug up, but it was unknown which was ‘the True Cross’ so they were each, in turn applied to a woman with ‘a headache’. After the third was applied, she miraculously was healed, so that must have been ‘the True Cross’.

They said one was better off as Herod’s pig than as his son. He had one of his son’s killed for disobedience, but Herod was a Jew by religion, and was reported to keep kosher.


19 posted on 05/06/2013 6:51:52 PM PDT by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
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To: wideawake

This article is ultra-Orthodox propaganda. They are anti-democratic, draft dodge the army en masse, are no longer wanted in the government, massively unpopular among the general population, and all these women request are their basic rights as citizens, which they are entitled to.


20 posted on 05/06/2013 7:24:39 PM PDT by idov
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To: PapaBear3625

Dome of the Crock! LOL!


21 posted on 05/06/2013 7:32:25 PM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (I’m not a Republican, I’m a conservative! Pubbies haven't been conservative since before T.R.)
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To: Former Fetus

The Western Wall has been the symbol of the holy Temple since its destruction by the Romans in 70 CE. Since that time, religious Jews have prayed to come back to it. After its liberation in 1967 the Western Wall (renamed from the Wailing Wall) has become one of the most highly-visited sites in Israel. Secular and religious Israelis as well as tourists from other countries make it a point to visit, to pray there, to feel in touch with their spirituality and to leave notes in the wall expressing how they feel. There is a rabbi appointed over the Western Wall and its plaza.

The only requirements imposed on visitors are that they wear modest clothing, broadly defined (a woman in a short dress will be given a shawl to wrap around her legs), that men and women pray in separate sections, that in the women’s section there are no organized prayer services, since in Orthodox Judaism it takes a group of 10 men in order to permit them to pray together, and that women not wear a tallit and tephilin, which by Jewish custom are deemed men’s garb, and therefore it would violate a commandment in the Torah for women to wear them.

The women of the wall are nothing more than leftist provocateurs denigrating the religious feelings and praxis of the thousands of visitors to the wall, making a public disturbance that prevents the other women in the women’s section from being able to lose themselves in their own spiritual journey.

Nevertheless, there has been a section of the Wall made available for them. Unfortunately, the women of the wall refuse to utilize that space, instead forcing their behavior on those women in the regular women’s section who want nothing more than to be left alone to pray in peace.

It’s part of the left’s war on tradition, and nothing more.


22 posted on 05/06/2013 7:45:59 PM PDT by Piranha
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To: donmeaker

never heard that before,do you have proof that it was a roman stable?


23 posted on 05/06/2013 7:56:45 PM PDT by Craftmore
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To: PapaBear3625

I like your thinking.


24 posted on 05/06/2013 8:02:15 PM PDT by Hildy (Falling down is how you grow. Staying down is how you die.)
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To: donmeaker
I have a Baedeker's from 1911 which says that "the huge substructions of the Temple plateau...still date from the reign of Herod." (They call his the third Temple). But maybe the state of knowledge has advanced since 1911.

The emperor Julian the Apostate reportedly planned to rebuild the temple but died before he had a chance.

25 posted on 05/06/2013 9:26:50 PM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: Former Fetus

Israel and the Jewish people.


26 posted on 05/07/2013 2:52:14 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: Piranha
It’s part of the left’s war on tradition, and nothing more.

Like using CE for dates?

27 posted on 05/07/2013 3:02:29 AM PDT by Hacksaw
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To: F15Eagle

The Maccabees ...


28 posted on 05/07/2013 3:07:21 AM PDT by Sir Francis Dashwood ("Arjuna, why have you have dropped your bow???")
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To: Piranha
Im sorry,you lost me when you chose to use CE instead of AD What to you is the pivotal point that defines the differance between CE and whatever happened before CE.And if its the birth of Christ why wont you use AD instead of CE?
29 posted on 05/07/2013 3:47:14 AM PDT by Craftmore
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To: Craftmore

I actually give some people a pass on this. If I was a serious believer in a religion other than Christianity, I would be painfully aware that AD does not mean “After the birth of Christ” but “Year of OUR Lord”. It’s only when you get nominal agnostics who don’t give two figs about religion using it to be disagreeable that I get nerked off.


30 posted on 05/07/2013 3:58:23 AM PDT by Eepsy
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To: Craftmore; Hacksaw

The choice of which designating abbreviation to use cuts to the core difference between Jews and Christians. I assume that both of you are Christians and would prefer to see AD and not CE. AD, short for Anno Domini, is an acknowledgement that Jesus is the Messiah, which is a point of disagreement and historical contention between us. CE, on the other hand, is short for Common Era, which is an acknowledgement of the times in which we live. It is not intended as a disparagement of your faith in any respect. Actually, I grew up with the CE designator and didn’t even think about it when I posted my comment.


31 posted on 05/07/2013 5:09:36 AM PDT by Piranha
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To: Craftmore; Hacksaw

The choice of which designating abbreviation to use cuts to the core difference between Jews and Christians. I assume that both of you are Christians and would prefer to see AD and not CE. AD, short for Anno Domini, is an acknowledgement that Jesus is the Messiah, which is a point of disagreement and historical contention between us. CE, on the other hand, is short for Common Era, which is an acknowledgement of the times in which we live. It is not intended as a disparagement of your faith in any respect. Actually, I grew up with the CE designator and didn’t even think about it when I posted my comment.


32 posted on 05/07/2013 5:12:25 AM PDT by Piranha
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To: idov
This article is ultra-Orthodox propaganda.

What is the difference between "Orthodox" and "ultra-Orthodox"? Do Orthodox Jews strongly support the "women of the Wall" and only the "ultra-Orthodox" oppose them?

They are anti-democratic

As am I. I support a republican form of representative government - not a plebiscitary democracy. I stand with Washington, Hamilton and Madison on this point.

draft dodge the army en masse

Maybe a fair criticism - do the "Women of the Wall" oppose all forms of conscientious objection?

Also, is forced conscription of the population democratic or anti-democratic?

no longer wanted in the government

Should they be excluded from the government? If they were, would this be democratic?

massively unpopular among the general population

At current rates of growth, it would seem that they are becoming the "general population."

and all these women request are their basic rights as citizens, which they are entitled to

There is a "basic right" to deliberately provoke other citizens by mocking their religion in its holiest place?

While Unitarians in the USA, say, would have a First Amendment right to mock and belittle Eastern Orthodox Christians by imitating their liturgy - and let's say they were rude enough to do it on the sidewalk in front of the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist - the local government would likely tell them (1) they need to a permit to protest so consistently and provocatively in that precise location and (2) then move to deny them a permit.

And the courts would uphold that.

Why? Because both sides have a right to freedom of speech and freedom of religion - and the Orthodox were there first.

33 posted on 05/07/2013 6:20:58 AM PDT by wideawake
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To: Eepsy

Well put. I would not want to make a false declaration of faith. To me, using the designator AD is like taking communion as a non-Catholic.


34 posted on 05/07/2013 6:53:51 AM PDT by Piranha
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To: wideawake

Here’s the latest on this issue. Bennett’s party represents mainstream Orthodox.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/bennett-steps-into-western-wall-prayer-fray/

The Orthodox are Zionists. They will do what the courts say, which have now recognized the women’s rights, and come to an accommodation.

The ultra-Orthodox march to their own drummer, which they are entitled to, as long they don’t infringe on other people’s rights.

Perhaps saying anti-democratic was too strong. They don’t recognize diversity. It’s their way or the highway. In a democracy you have to accommodate others who are not violating any law.

The ultra-Orthodox do not oppose the draft of their young men on the grounds of conscience objection. They see themselves as a special case. The courts have struck down their arguments and in the last election, that was a big issue. They won’t even be asked to go to the army if they don’t want; civil volunteer work will be enough. But they resist that as well.

This is only the second government in the history of the state that they weren’t asked to join. The main parties who joined Netanyahu refused to sit with them mainly because of the issue of the draft.

The ultra-Orthodox are no more than 10 per cent of the population. The more the merrier but they’ll never be more than a small minority.


35 posted on 05/07/2013 6:58:33 AM PDT by idov
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To: Piranha

Thanks. In all the arguments I have heard, the rights of the other women praying at the wall were not mentioned. That is a very valid point, and after all the Women of the Wall were offered another section in the southern part of the wall IIRC. Which they hurried to turn down! It seems to prove my point, and I am a woman speaking, but when women start asking for “equal rights” in any religion, this (religion) is the least of their concerns!


36 posted on 05/07/2013 7:16:36 AM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: Craftmore
What to you is the pivotal point that defines the differance between CE and whatever happened before CE.And if its the birth of Christ why wont you use AD instead of CE?

As a born again Christian, my first priority is to witness to others. However, let me say in Christian love, that your comment comes across as aggressive, in your face. Hardly the best way to win hearts for Christ!

37 posted on 05/07/2013 7:20:38 AM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: Former Fetus

I guess I feel the same everytime I see CE instead of AD,I view that as an In youre face attack saying Christ didnt matter.My hackles rise everytime I see CE.If the differet event that caused CE to be CE is the birth of Christ why try so hard to deny it?


38 posted on 05/07/2013 8:22:41 AM PDT by Craftmore
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To: Craftmore

The thing is, you have to separate out the use of CE by virulently anti-religion elitists who want to erase Christianity from Western Culture and the use of CE by believing Jews who feel funny about referring to dates as belonging to a Lord they do not recognize.

Words have meaning. I’m a serious Christian. I don’t go around saying “PBUH” when I mention Mohammed, I write “God” instead of “G*d”, and I give people who are equally serious about their religion a pass on avoiding terms they find theologically upsetting.


39 posted on 05/07/2013 8:33:48 AM PDT by Eepsy
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To: Craftmore

In my experience, most people who use CE are either university professors (i.e. liberals) or Jews. I don’t know how to best deal with the liberal ones, but I do feel a burden towards the Jewish people. They are Jesus’ people, I am sure they matter very much to Him in a way that is different from the way Christians matter... Anyhow, I have found many Jews to be very defensive, sometimes aggressive, when Christianity is mentioned. I have a temper, but am doing my best to be as non-confrontational as possible, and instead try to engage them in conversation. Have I been successful? Only the Lord knows, but I have worked very hard at getting the soil ready before planting a seed. And that’s all I know to do.


40 posted on 05/07/2013 8:39:38 AM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: Eepsy

Great answer!


41 posted on 05/07/2013 8:40:46 AM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: Former Fetus

The wall, and everything else in the world, belongs to God.


42 posted on 05/07/2013 8:46:47 AM PDT by Truth2012
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To: Craftmore

You can’t prove anything on line. One can only inform. There is a nice wikipedia article on Solomon’s Stables.

During the Umayyad reign, this reservoir was converted into a prayer hall (mussalah) and was named the Marwani Mussalah, by the Islamic Umayyad Khalifa, Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan, along with the Dome of the Rock.[4][not in citation given] It remained so until the Crusaders converted it in 1099 into a stable for the infantry. The rings for tethering horses can still be seen on some of the pillars. The place used to be accessed from the single-panel gate located in the southern wall of al-Aqsa Mosque, which is also the southern wall of the Marwani mussalah.

The structure has been called Solomon’s Stables since Crusader times as a historical composite. ‘Solomon’s’ refers to the First Temple built on the site, while the ‘stables’ refers to the functional usage of the space by the Crusaders in the time of Baldwin II (King of Jerusalem 1118-1131 CE).

And from the Wikipedia article on “Antonia Fortress”...
Ernest L. Martin asserts a controversial claim in his book, “The Temples that Jerusalem Forgot”,[10] that the Ophel Mound is the site of the First and Second Temples and what is called the Temple Mount today was in fact the Roman Fort Antonia. His work set off a firestorm of discussion because Martin asserted that the Temple Mount was not the location of the last Temple. This work had even more importance due to the prior relationship between Martin and Herbert W. Armstrong whose editorial in The Plain Truth magazine had been cited by Denis Michael Rohan for his excuse to set fire to the Al Aqsa mosque during the 1960s.

The basis of this work began with the first visit by Martin to Jerusalem in 1961 when he first met Benjamin Mazar and later his son Ory Mazar, who informed him of his belief that the Temples of Solomon and Zerubbabel were located on the Ophel mound to the north of the original Mount Zion on the southeast ridge. Ory Mazar informed Martin that his father had also inclined to this belief before his death. In 1996 Martin wrote a draft report to support this theory. He wrote: “I was then under the impression that Simon the Hasmonean (along with Herod a century later) moved the Temple from the Ophel mound to the Dome of the Rock area.”

However, after studying the words of Josephus concerning the Temple of Herod the Great, which was reported to be in the same general area of the former Temples, he then read the account of Eleazar who led the final contingent of Jewish resistance to the Romans at Masada which stated that the Roman fortress was the only structure left by 73 CE “With this key in mind, I came to the conclusion in 1997 that all the Temples were indeed located on the Ophel mound over the area of the Gihon Spring”.[11]

From these conclusions Martin produced his book in which he asserted that the Temples of Jerusalem were located over the Gihon Spring and not over the Dome of the Rock. He wrote: “What has been amazing to me is the vast amount of Jewish, Muslim, and Christian records that remain available from the first to the sixteenth centuries that clearly vindicate the conclusions that I have reached in this book of research.”

So the Solomon’s Stables either date from the time of the first Crusade, or are the location of the Antonia Fortress, dating from the time that a suck-up to Mark Antony named it.

Your choice.


43 posted on 05/09/2013 8:55:29 PM PDT by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
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To: Truth2012

G-d doesn’t show up much in courts. I have been in court rooms, and they are pretty profane places.


44 posted on 05/09/2013 8:56:24 PM PDT by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
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To: Hacksaw

I figure observant Jews may chose to use CE and BCE also, since they don’t accept the lordship of Jesus Christ.


45 posted on 05/09/2013 9:01:13 PM PDT by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
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To: donmeaker

thank you,very informative.


46 posted on 05/10/2013 3:42:02 AM PDT by Craftmore
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To: donmeaker

God is everywhere. You are just seeing people who have not submitted to God or His ways. They have chosen a path from God, but that does not mean that He is not there to redeem them, the min they turn back to Him. The Lord is a gentleman, he allows people to make poor choices, and go into profane places, if that is what they choose.

Did God not direct the way of the Tabernacle TO the Philistines? Who can push back the Lord from where He chooses to be? The Lord reigns over everything, everyone and everyplace.

Look again, I bet you will see Him.


47 posted on 05/10/2013 6:16:51 AM PDT by Truth2012
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