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10 Reasons Why It's Hard to Become Catholic
Canterbury Tales ^ | May 6, 2013 | Taylor Marshall

Posted on 05/06/2013 6:31:14 PM PDT by NYer


Is it difficult to become Catholic?

I don't often disclose personal thoughts on this blog, but I feel that this is something that might be helpful for folks on both sides of the Tiber: Ten Reasons why it's hard to become Catholic.

I have spoken to somewhere between 50-100 Protestant ministers who have become Catholic or are contemplating entry into full communion with the Catholic Church. Most of these are Anglican or Presbyterian. A few have been Lutheran. 

Over the last several years, I've gathered up the "big ten" that either cause pain or lead to a man saying "No thanks," to the Catholic Church.

#10 Theological Submission
It's difficult to say serviam ("I will serve"). Theology is no longer "what I think". It requires a submission of the mind. At the same time, this a liberation of the mind. Still, it is difficult to tell oneself: "I don't fully understand the Treasury of Merit, but I will submit my reason to the reason of the Church."

#9 Priests
Catholic priests are not like Protestant ministers. Relatively speaking, they are more distant than Protestant clergy, albeit for good reasons sometimes. A Protestant has the experience of a minister smiling whenever he sees you, memorizing your name, and generally going out of his way to make a personal connection. This rarely happens in Catholicism. I admit it - it wounds my pride a little. I wish that I were greeted and hailed by the pastor after Mass. It's humbling to be part of the masses at Mass.

Protestant ministers usually have smaller congregations and more competition with one another. Hence, the minister is much more likely to say, "Hey, let's go to Starbucks this week and talk about your faith."

Of course, I know dozens of Catholic priests who do reach out on a personal level, but for the most part, Catholic priests are stretched out more thinly. Consequently, personal access is more rare. And to be honest, I'm glad to know that my priests are hearing confessions and going to the hospital all the time. That's a much better use of their time than drinking expensive coffee with me.

#8 Liturgy
I am beginning to think that there is nothing as controversial in the Catholic Church as liturgy. It is at the center of everything.

I like clean, tight liturgies. Altar boys turning on a dime and making a 90 degree right angle around the altar. Latin. Gregorian chant. Synchronized genuflections. Defined signs of the crosses. Corporal folded the proper way (up not down!) You may have guessed it. I attend the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.

However, it's not like that everywhere. There are some wonderful liturgies and some not-so-wonderful liturgies. Sometimes, potential converts walk in to a not-so-wonderful liturgy with broken rubrics and oddities. It's difficult for many - especially if they are coming from a more liturgical form of Protestantism. I don't know the best answer to this problem. All I know that it is a problem.

My suggested solution is the "Great Catholic Migration of the 21th Century." Click here to read more about "the great migration."

#7 Dealing with marriage, divorce, homosexuality, contraception, abortion
Some people have irregular marriages, live homosexual lifestyles, or enjoy the comforts of contraception. It's painful to allow your divorce and re-marriage to be examined by the bishop's tribunal. It's embarrassing to talk about a 'lifestyle.' It's not easy to imagine having a minivan overflowing with car seats or to rethink the vasectomy. 

For some, they have to revisit an abortion that occurred decades ago. These sort of things cut deep to the heart and make us squirm. All this is understandable and I think that these things should be addressed with caution and compassion. If you're a potential convert, pray for and seek out a good priest with whom you can speak confidentially.

I'll also add from personal experience, the healing a good confession is about 100 times more powerful than any of the shame or fear associated with past problems. I think others here would agree. 

(Please leave a comment below to testify to this reality so others might be assured.)

#6 Financial discomforts
If you're a clergyman you stand to lose your great pension, great health benefits, discretionary fund, and your salary. I've been there and it's tough. It's likely that you haven't been trained to do anything else that is marketable. I doubt that anyone out there will pay you six figures to write sermons for them or lead a small-group Bible study. It goes without saying that most ministers take a major pay cut when they become Catholic. Their family income goes down. They usually start having more kids. Also, they usually start paying for parochial education - another hit to the pocketbook.

#5 Vocational confusion
It was difficult at first to admit that my Anglican priesthood was invalid. I wasn't a priest long, but I heard confessions, anointed the dying, etc. What was I doing? What was God doing? Why did God let me function sacramentally with people who were deeply hurting. I still don't know how to "classify" those ministerial acts.

I think other would-be converts struggle with the same ideas. Even if they were laymen, they wonder about their past roles as Sunday school teachers, mentors, Bible study leaders, counselors, etc.

#4 Non-Catholic ridicule and estrangement
Family and friends do not understand. Even when they try to understand, they will never appreciate the frustrations, study, and heart-searching that goes into becoming Catholic. Some Anglicans still call me "Father", which makes me feel uncomfortable. Others have written terrible things about me. I've never been more greatly attacked for anything else in my life.

Tension often arises with parents and siblings. I've even heard of converts who were cut out of the inheritance because they became "Roman".

#3 Catholic ridicule and estrangement
This may seem odd, but some Catholics are suspicious of converts to Catholicism. These come in two forms. Type A is the cradle-Catholic who has all their ducks in a row and suspects the convert of being a crypto-Protestant unschooled in the ways of being Catholic. If the new Catholic prays extemporaneously, then it's "We don't do that." If the convert quotes Scripture about something, they frown upon this, too. 

Some Catholics also seem to think that it is helpful to ridicule my past as a non-Catholic, as if that would somehow validate me as now "one of them." Some Catholics just love to hear converts bash their former faith. This places converts in a strange position.

Type B is the cradle-Catholic who is less committed to the distinctives of the Catholic faith. They see zealous converts as a threat. These converts are overly-concerned with dogma and truth. And this leads us to obstruction number two...

#2 RCIA (Rite for Christian Initiation of Adults)
RCIA must have been invented so that every conversion to the Catholic Church might somehow be miraculous. It is becoming an element of Catholic lore that RCIA is commonly led or organized by someone who is a "type B" Catholic as described above. These people don't seem to understand how zealous these converts can be. These leaders stress the "feelings" part of Catholicism and not the "orthodoxy" part of Catholicism much to the chagrin of the converts who have had it up to their ears in Protestant appeals to their feelings.

It's amazing how many people "give up" in RCIA. It's also amazing how many push on through. I know many who have had wonderful RCIA experiences, but I know many more who had to defend the Catholic faith while taking RCIA.

Just so I don't step on any toes, I salute and applaud all the great RCIA teachers out there. I know that you're out there and we are thankful for you! Keep up the great work.

#1 Pride
I don't know how to say this in a witty way, but pride holds the number one slot. At one point in life I felt that I was too good for all those people who respected the Infant of Prague. I'm ashamed to admit, but there it is. Why join a religion where adherents air brush images of Our Lady of Guadalupe on the hoods of their lowriders? (I grew up in Texas...) One Protestant gentlemen even told me that he couldn't be Catholic because it was "the religion of the masses." I asked him what he meant, and the term "Mexicans" was employed in his reply. 

It's snobbery against the religion of the masses and immigrants.

It's just cooler to go to an Evangelical mega-church that has a pool, basketball gym, powerpoint presentations, podcasts, and a rocking "praise team." I sometimes wish that our homilies had really cool cultural references in them or solidly crafted "gotcha" endings. Alas, this is not typical of the parochial homily.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ministry/Outreach; Theology
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1 posted on 05/06/2013 6:31:14 PM PDT by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...
Those who regularly watch The Journey Home have heard these same reasons so many times.

Host Marcus Grodi maintains his own site. The purpose of the Coming Home Network International (CHNetwork) is to provide fellowship, encouragement, and support to men and women who are considering becoming Catholic and those who have already come home. In particular, the Coming Home Network seeks to assist non-Catholic clergy who often face acute difficulties and struggles during their journeys.

2 posted on 05/06/2013 6:32:34 PM PDT by NYer (Beware the man of a single book - St. Thomas Aquinas)
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To: NYer
"I like clean, tight liturgies. Altar boys turning on a dime and making a 90 degree right angle around the altar. Latin. Gregorian chant. Synchronized genuflections. Defined signs of the crosses. Corporal folded the proper way (up not down!) You may have guessed it. I attend the Extraordinary Form of the Mass."

I became an altar boy in 1961, then,a couple of years later, everything changed after 2000 or so years.

Anyway...we turned those crisp corners back then.

3 posted on 05/06/2013 6:37:47 PM PDT by gorush (History repeats itself because human nature is static)
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To: NYer
#7 Dealing with marriage, divorce, homosexuality, contraception, abortion

Really? Dealing with these? Until the Catholic Church starts [publicly] excommunicating (and making sure people know such have been excommunicate) the likes of Nancy Pelosi and other governmental leaders the world over for endorsing abortion/homosexuality/contraception I'm going to say this is BS.

4 posted on 05/06/2013 6:38:16 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: NYer

Praying to Mother Mary is another big obstacle for Anglicans.


5 posted on 05/06/2013 6:39:40 PM PDT by Clint N. Suhks (The amount of ammo you need is determined after the gunfight.)
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To: NYer

I think #9 is very true. While I respect that Catholic priests hear confession and are devoted to charity work, I do feel the personal connection say, Southern Baptists, have with their pastors is very positive, and in fact works to keep people on the straight and narrow through hard times.


6 posted on 05/06/2013 6:44:15 PM PDT by Viennacon
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To: NYer; Old Sarge; NorthernCrunchyCon; UMCRevMom@aol.com; Finatic; fellowpatriot; MarineMom613; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

7 posted on 05/06/2013 6:45:28 PM PDT by narses
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To: OneWingedShark
Really? Dealing with these? Until the Catholic Church starts [publicly] excommunicating (and making sure people know such have been excommunicate) the likes of Nancy Pelosi and other governmental leaders the world over for endorsing abortion/homosexuality/contraception I'm going to say this is BS.

There is some truth in your position. Ironically, and to some extent, hypocritically, While the Church quietly might excommunicate a politician, they will dig into the personal convictions, faith and behavior of an individual trying to re-marry in the church following a divorce. It can be quite uncomfortable. I understand and approve of why they pursue the latter as Matrimony is a sacred Sacrament. But I would like to see MUCH stronger leadership when it comes to politicians and celebrities.

8 posted on 05/06/2013 6:48:09 PM PDT by Tenacious 1 ("The British are Coming (to confiscate weapons)" - Paul Revere (We know how that ended))
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To: Clint N. Suhks

My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen

Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.

Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.

Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.

Amen.

She became the Mother of God, in which work so many and such great good things are bestowed on her as pass man’s understanding. For on this there follows all honor, all blessedness, and her unique place in the whole of mankind, among which she has no equal, namely, that she had a child by the Father in heaven, and such a Child . . . Hence men have crowded all her glory into a single word, calling her the Mother of God . . . None can say of her nor announce to her greater things, even though he had as many tongues as the earth possesses flowers and blades of grass: the sky, stars; and the sea, grains of sand. It needs to be pondered in the heart what it means to be the Mother of God.

(Commentary on the Magnificat, 1521; in Luther’s Works, Pelikan et al, vol. 21, 326)


9 posted on 05/06/2013 6:49:25 PM PDT by narses
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To: NYer

I grew up in the Episcopal church, which until the homos took over, was probably the most beautiful of protestant denominations. I guess that is what attracted the homos.
I was senior warden of the oldest EC in west Tennessee (1832).

After moving to Europe, I attended a few Catholic services
and even took communion....I know, that may be a no-no without being officially confirmed as an RC.
Now that I live in the Philippines, I sometimes attend the huge and ancient RC church here in Dalaguete.
My wife and baby boy are there many times every week.
He always tells me that he is going, or has been to see mama Mary.


10 posted on 05/06/2013 6:50:50 PM PDT by AlexW
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To: NYer
It's amazing how many people "give up" in RCIA.

I became Catholic in spite of RCIA. My parish now has a good well done RCIA with just a tinge of mush from the new wave sister that insists helping with it. Where I had my own RCIA it was run by a "Christian psychologist" with all that implies. The priest came off as someone who was a committed Catholic in spite of not believing in all that stuff. Actually I had made my decision well before I started that. I had done a lot of study and knew that whatever I ran into that might be weird was a veneer and the truth was in the Church even if some of its proponents were flaky.

11 posted on 05/06/2013 6:51:09 PM PDT by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's EconomTheiics In One Lesson ONLINE www.fee.org/library/books/economics-in-one-lesson)
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To: NYer
I've even heard of converts who were cut out of the inheritance because they became "Roman".

I've even heard of converts, for example myself, who were cut out of the inheritance because they became "Protestant".

12 posted on 05/06/2013 6:53:02 PM PDT by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: NYer
It's impossible to become a Christian unless you're called, in which case it's impossible to not become a Christian.

John 6: 65 
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

13 posted on 05/06/2013 6:55:13 PM PDT by Theophilus (Not merely prolife, but prolific)
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To: NYer

Hmm. I am an Episcopalian and I don’t see a problem with any of the ten reasons, although I am looking to change my creeds because of the changes in my church.


14 posted on 05/06/2013 6:55:58 PM PDT by ConservativeInPA (Molon Labe - Shall not be questioned)
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To: NYer

I’d like to think that none of the above 10 would deter me. They all strike me as decisions rather than obstacles.

My issues remain theological.


15 posted on 05/06/2013 6:56:39 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True supporters of our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: Viennacon

I am a cradle to grave Catholic.

Many years ago, while in college, I attended a Pentecostal service with a girl I went on a date or two with. I certainly did some praying during mass. I had not been briefed on the customs, service or traditions. I felt like the whore in church (quite literally). I didn’t know the songs and NOT singing at the top of your lungs made you different. The people running to the front screaming jibberish and throwing themselves on the floor was unnerving. Worst of all, apparently you are supposed to introduce yourself to all members in a bit of social time before mass if you are “new”. Members are not expected to introduce you or themselves first. I just thought I had a booger on my face.

Contrast that with a colleague who had a similar experience at a Catholic Mass. Into his 20s he had never been to a religious service outside of a wedding or funeral. He commented on how WEIRD it was to be talking about eating the actual body and drinking the blood of Jesus. He couple that with the standing, kneeling, chanting, etc. He said he was uncomfortable. Until then, I had never thought about it.

Traditions become what we are comfortable with.


16 posted on 05/06/2013 6:58:11 PM PDT by Tenacious 1 ("The British are Coming (to confiscate weapons)" - Paul Revere (We know how that ended))
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To: NYer
RE: #9, being greeted by the Pastor, or the Associate, for that matter. Unless you are active in the Parish, and have occasion to see the Pastor and Associate frequently, why would you expect either of them to remember your name. Some priests and remember someone's name even after only meeting them once, but that's a very rare talent among human beings.

Inviting the Pastor or Associate over for dinner is another way to make sure he knows your name. We invited the new Associate to have Christmas dinner with us, and it was a fun evening. I told him don't even bother showing up at the house before 5pm, because nothing would be ready. He arrived around 5:30, and things STILL weren't ready, so I sat him down, gave him a glass of wine, and we just visited while I was finishing up the meal. He knew ALL our names after that visit! LOL!

17 posted on 05/06/2013 7:04:30 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: narses

We pray to the Holy Spirit not a mortal. That Trinity thing.


18 posted on 05/06/2013 7:07:57 PM PDT by Clint N. Suhks (The amount of ammo you need is determined after the gunfight.)
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To: xzins
My issues remain theological.

There are three things I really don't like about Catholicism, and think they would tend to pull someone away from God:
1 - The veneration, close to idolatry, of Mary;
2 - the praying to angles and saints;
3 - the supremacy of tradition, even over the scripture.

(However, I do not think that all Catholics are not Christians.)

19 posted on 05/06/2013 7:09:12 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: arthurus
I became Catholic in spite of RCIA.

Same here. Don't get me started on my RCIA rant!!

20 posted on 05/06/2013 7:09:46 PM PDT by PeevedPatriot
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To: Clint N. Suhks

Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem;
Creatorem caeli et terrae.

Et in Jesum Christum,
Filium eius unicum, Dominum nostrum;
qui conceptus est
de Spiritu Sancto,
natus ex Maria virgine;
passus sub Pontio Pilato,
crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus;
descendit ad inferos;
tertia die resurrexit a mortuis;
ascendit ad caelos;
sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis;
inde venturus est
iudicare vivos et mortuos.

Credo in Spiritum Sanctum;
sanctam ecclesiam catholicam;
sanctorum communionem;
remissionem peccatorum;
carnis resurrectionem;
vitam aeternam. Amen.

In English:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ,
his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived
by the power of the Holy Spirit,
and born of the Virgin Mary,
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
He descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
he will come again
to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen


21 posted on 05/06/2013 7:11:38 PM PDT by narses
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To: narses

I believe in the Virgin Mary and other miracles. I’m happy to pray for her, not to her.


22 posted on 05/06/2013 7:17:01 PM PDT by Clint N. Suhks (The amount of ammo you need is determined after the gunfight.)
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To: Tenacious 1; OneWingedShark
There is another aspect of this issue. On those occasions where the Catholic Church publicly excommunicates someone, it is often followed by a backlash from supporters. That in turn provokes confusion which generates individuals siding with the individual excommunicated. Take, for example, former priest, Roy Bourgeois, a staunch supporter of women's ordination. His superiors met with him on multiple occasions and issued warnings. When that failed, they turned to the Vatican and Pope Benedict formally excommunicated him in 2008. Bourgeois is still making the rounds, ginning up support through a showing of the movie “Pink Smoke Over the Vatican,” a 2011 documentary which details the controversial movement for women’s ordination. The tour was recently in Michigan and will soon be in NY. With the election of Pope Francis, Bourgeois plans to appeal his excommunication.

“Now will he have the courage to really bring about a real change, especially in the way of gender equality?” Bourgeois asked. “I’m cautiously optimistic.”

And these individuals have the sympathy of the mainstream media. Here is another example: Brazil Priest Excommunicated For Defending Gay Rights

Pelosi and Biden have excommunicated themselves. We don't need the media to turn them into martyrs.

23 posted on 05/06/2013 7:22:28 PM PDT by NYer (Beware the man of a single book - St. Thomas Aquinas)
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To: Clint N. Suhks

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
...
the communion of saints,
...

Yes?


24 posted on 05/06/2013 7:23:37 PM PDT by narses
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To: NYer

Pathetic.

Maybe spend your energy promoting Jesus as much as you do your denomination.


25 posted on 05/06/2013 7:25:39 PM PDT by Theo (May Christ be exalted above all.)
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To: NYer

I too believe In the Mother of Jesus but I don’t have to start my prayers with her. I don’t need to confess my sins to another mortal man, I go directly to God. I don’t worship Idols, I believe one must be Saved and Baptized. I do not believe simply sprinkling water on one is being Baptized. And I believe in the King James Bible. Just my views for what its worth.


26 posted on 05/06/2013 7:28:44 PM PDT by JamesA (You don't have to be big to stand tall)
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To: narses

I don’t understand. I already said I believe in the Holy Spirit. I’m just pointing out what was missed in the article, Anglicans don’t pray to Mary.


27 posted on 05/06/2013 7:30:52 PM PDT by Clint N. Suhks (The amount of ammo you need is determined after the gunfight.)
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To: Theo
"Maybe spend your energy promoting Jesus as much as you do your denomination."


28 posted on 05/06/2013 7:31:44 PM PDT by narses
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To: SuziQ
Thank you for sharing that wonderful story! It sounds like he had a wonderful time, experiencing family life in the real world. God bless you for opening your home to the Associate Pastor to dinner.

Our pastor knows the names of all the parishioners and greets everyone who shows up on Sunday. However, our parish is very small - only 80 families - so in that regard, we are like some of the protestant churches.

29 posted on 05/06/2013 7:34:15 PM PDT by NYer (Beware the man of a single book - St. Thomas Aquinas)
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To: Clint N. Suhks

See http://www.lambethconference.org/resolutions/1958/1958-79.cfm

Do you honor the Communion of Saints?


30 posted on 05/06/2013 7:35:03 PM PDT by narses
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To: OneWingedShark

(However, I do not think that all Catholics are not Christians.)

Gee, I would hope not. Considering that the Catholic Church (all rites, Latin as well as the Eastern Rites) are the ORIGINAL and true Christian Church and can trace their existence in a direct line from the present to the Apostles of Christ and Christ himself.


31 posted on 05/06/2013 7:37:12 PM PDT by Jim from C-Town (The government is rarely benevolent, often malevolent and never benign!)
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To: NYer
Pelosi and Biden have excommunicated themselves. We don't need the media to turn them into martyrs.

That's like "give yourself a spanking" right?

32 posted on 05/06/2013 7:37:50 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: NYer
#9 Priests Catholic priests are not like Protestant ministers. Relatively speaking, they are more distant than Protestant clergy, albeit for good reasons sometimes. A Protestant has the experience of a minister smiling whenever he sees you, memorizing your name, and generally going out of his way to make a personal connection. This rarely happens in Catholicism. I admit it - it wounds my pride a little. I wish that I were greeted and hailed by the pastor after Mass. It's humbling to be part of the masses at Mass.

I belong to a rather large parish ... about 5,000 families with regular attendance in the 4,000 range per weekend. I know my pastor and his associate priest by name and they know me by name. And I'm not even one of the more heavily involved members. Yes, I am involved ... but not one of the folks that are busy every single day with church matters.

33 posted on 05/06/2013 7:38:03 PM PDT by al_c (http://www.blowoutcongress.com)
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To: JamesA
I don’t need to confess my sins to another mortal man, I go directly to God.

How do you know if He has forgiven them? That is why our Lord gave us the Sacrament of Reconciliation (John 20:23). Confession is to God through the priest. Absolution comes from God through the priest. There are no sweeter words than "I absolve you of your sins".

34 posted on 05/06/2013 7:39:54 PM PDT by NYer (Beware the man of a single book - St. Thomas Aquinas)
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To: Jim from C-Town

>> (However, I do not think that all Catholics are not Christians.)
>
> Gee, I would hope not. Considering that the Catholic Church (all rites, Latin as well as the Eastern Rites) are the ORIGINAL and true Christian Church and can trace their existence in a direct line from the present to the Apostles of Christ and Christ himself.

Which is why they’re preformed in the original Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek, right?


35 posted on 05/06/2013 7:40:01 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: narses

Of course I honor the Communion of Saints and the entire Apostle’s Creed.

But commemoration is praying for, not to.


36 posted on 05/06/2013 7:40:33 PM PDT by Clint N. Suhks (The amount of ammo you need is determined after the gunfight.)
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To: OneWingedShark

You can say whatever you like. It’s a free country. He, however, is very right.


37 posted on 05/06/2013 7:41:43 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: JamesA

“Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’ “


38 posted on 05/06/2013 7:43:37 PM PDT by narses
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To: OneWingedShark
Which is why they’re preformed in the original Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek, right?

Is that supposed to be a "gotcha" question?

It's a very interesting one ... the Eastern rites do retain their original Greek and Aramaic ... as the Latin rite retains its original Latin.

39 posted on 05/06/2013 7:44:13 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: NYer

Ex-protestant here. I am going to pass this article on because it speaks to me. :) Thank you for posting it.


40 posted on 05/06/2013 7:45:22 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas is a state of mind - Steinbeck)
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To: Clint N. Suhks

The Communion of Saints
The communion of saints is one of the most profound doctrines in the Christian tradition. All Christians are incorporated into the mystical Body of Christ by virtue of their baptism. Through Christ we are inextricably linked to God and to each other, and together we form the post-Ascension presence of Christ on earth. Jesus heals through the touch of our hands, He feeds the hungry through our generosity, and He speaks the words of forgiveness through our relationships with each other. This is very much in keeping with the spirit of the Incarnation. We are not meant to be a community of disembodied spirits but rather the living Church through which God interacts with the real world and spreads the message of the Resurrection.

The Church is composed of two parts — the Church Militant (the faithful who are still on this earth) and the Church Triumphant (those who have undergone physical death and are now with Christ). Christians who have already completed their pilgrimage on this earth are not truly dead but are fully alive in Christ. The link between Christians is so strong that not even physical death can sever it. Together the Church Militant and Church Triumphant are participants in the Divine Liturgy that is forever said before the throne of God.

Very early on the Church felt that the martyrs and saints who had departed this world were not separated from Christians who were alive, but rather they were in greater communion with God and with earthly Christians. This led to the doctrine of the intercession of the saints which is still present in the Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican traditions. To ask for a saint’s intercession is simply to ask them to pray for you as you would a fellow Christian who is alive on this earth.

This intercession is not at all analogous to praying to God — worship is due to God alone. Since these saints are truly alive it is completely orthodox to allow for this practice as long as it is done in the proper sense. It is only through God’s grace that the intercession of the saints is even possible. As long as medieval excesses are avoided it is a reasonable practice that is consistent with historic teachings of the Church.

Some Christians may raise the objection that there is only one mediator between God and man and that Jesus is this sole mediator. This is certainly true, but we ask fellow Christians to pray for us all the time because we know that the prayers of others have been found by the Church to be efficacious. Other people interceding for us in no way reduces the unique work of Jesus’ complete mediation. All intercessions are ultimately derived from his singular act and cannot be separated from it.

If these Christians in heaven are in full communion with God then that makes their prayers on our behalf that much more powerful. My only advice to skeptics would be to try it out for yourself. I have been very blessed by this practice and I highly recommend it. It is often a difficult journey in this life, and more people praying for you is always a good thing.

http://anglican-musings.blogspot.com/2007/06/communion-of-saints.html


41 posted on 05/06/2013 7:54:19 PM PDT by narses
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To: ArrogantBustard
>> Which is why they’re preformed in the original Hebrew/Aramaic/Greek, right? > > Is that supposed to be a "gotcha" question?

Only half one.

It's a very interesting one ... the Eastern rites do retain their original Greek and Aramaic ... as the Latin rite retains its original Latin.

Actually there's more arguments that it should be done in the language of the congregation than an old language: why?
Because all the scriptures the [very] early church used was the Old Testament (the New in the process of being written) and that in the language of that city [i.e. translations].

Christianity has, from the very beginning, been about getting the message out [termed 'evangelize'] rather than keeping it secret knowledge.

42 posted on 05/06/2013 7:56:48 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

To: narses
This intercession is not at all analogous to praying to God

My praying for you does not make me part of the Holy Trinity. Nor does asking saints to pray for you or me.

44 posted on 05/06/2013 8:00:30 PM PDT by Clint N. Suhks (The amount of ammo you need is determined after the gunfight.)
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To: NYer
the mainstream media(sic)

There's no such thing. The DLEMM - Dominant Liberal Establishment Mass Media - is anything but mainstream. Liberals are not mainstream they are an anomoly. People need to stop using the misnomer "mainstream media".

45 posted on 05/06/2013 8:01:13 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro can't pass E-verify)
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To: narses

Is that the creed that one must profess in order to become a Catholic?

It seems pretty on-target to me.


46 posted on 05/06/2013 8:02:27 PM PDT by Yardstick
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Comment #47 Removed by Moderator

To: NYer
There are no sweeter words than “I absolve you of your sins”
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

A mortal man absolving you of your sins, that's rich!

48 posted on 05/06/2013 8:07:39 PM PDT by bramps (Sarah Palin got more votes in 2008 than Mitt Romney got in 2012)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.


49 posted on 05/06/2013 8:07:51 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: OneWingedShark
been about getting the message out

For this reason, the Catholic Church (East and West) has always had a keen interest in translating the Sacred Scriptures accurately into as many languages as necessary. The Vulgate, of course, being perhaps the earliest such translation. The Church translated the Scriptures into English almost as soon as there was a recognizable English language. The Cyrillic alphabet was invented for the purpose of presenting the Sacred Scriptures in slavic languages. Other examples abound.

The Church (East and West) retains the ancient languages for the purpose of maintaining continuity and accuracy. Either way you look at it (use of ancient languages OR use of 'modern' languages) the Church has it right.

50 posted on 05/06/2013 8:08:10 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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