Posted on 05/09/2013 2:17:35 PM PDT by NYer
Yes, they are: we choose them, and God works within us to give us strength to complete them.
How then am I hardened when Rome asserts that salvation must be through Rome, through a mechanical salvation of ritual and works?
The example is in your very sentence above: misrepresenting the Catholic teaching in order to defeat a myth of your own making. hint: "Rome" does not "assert" that.
Do you believe that there is a partial election, but that there are others who are capable of coming to God who are not elected?
No not at all. Everyone who is capable of coming to God will come, and God will help him, if not in his life than at his death bed, if not by formal conversion then on his dying breath. Everyone in Heaven is Catholic, -- there is no salvation but by the Catholic Church.
Rom 7:14-25
Rom. 12:21. In fact the entire chapter would be useful for you to read.
Also, "With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible." (Matthew 19:26)
This is why I partake of the Holy Sacraments, -- so that body spiritual rise in me (1 Corinthians 15:44). You should do the same.
If the Holy Spirit dwelling within the Child does not regenerate him nor provide him any benefit, it is more likely that the Spirit isn’t there at all
So say the unbelievers. But it is the baptized babies that built our civilization and filled the Heavens with their light. What did the unbaptized do?
baptism in and of itself has no supernatural or magical power to provide any benefit
The Holy Scripture says otherwise: "baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:21). It is true that an adult needs to repent and profess his faith himself, if he hasn't been baptized. A child obviously cannot do that, so it is not required.
as if the hand of God can be moved by the command of a priest.
Again, it would be useful for you to learn a little bit about the authentic Christianity before you attempt to trash it.
“Yes, they are: we choose them,”
Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Sorry, but that simply isn’t compatible with the scripture.
“The example is in your very sentence above: misrepresenting the Catholic teaching in order to defeat a myth of your own making. hint: “Rome” does not “assert” that.”
It is exactly what Rome teaches. Every time you deny that salvation is the LORD’s alone, you promote it.
“No not at all. Everyone who is capable of coming to God will come,”
No one is capable:
Rom 3:10-12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Therefore, God must draw us:
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Therefore, it is God who works in us, for to will and to do.
You’ve not seriously answered any of the scriptures I’ve presented. There’s no point if you simply repeat your assertions without scriptural support, or answering the scriptures which defy your understanding of others.
“Also, “With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible.” (Matthew 19:26)”
In the context of salvation through the keeping of commandments. ‘Who then can be saved?’ is the question that Christ responds to, since the man cannot keep them. Thus, this quote helps my cause, since it says the man is incapable, but with God, saving a man is possible. It does not support your view that you can be holy.
“there is no salvation but by the Catholic Church.”
There is no salvation but by Jesus Christ.
“So say the unbelievers.”
So says observation. Probably only about a quarter of Catholics in his country are even active, and of those active, very few understand that it is impossible for them to be good enough to enter heaven.
“The Holy Scripture says otherwise”
The Holy scripture says no such thing.
“Not the mere application of water, for that idea the apostle expressly disclaims, when he says that it involves not “putting away the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.” The sense is, that baptism, including all that is properly meant by baptism as a religious rite - that is, baptism administered in connection with true repentance, and true faith in the Lord Jesus, and when it is properly a symbol of the putting away of sin, and of the renewing influences of the Holy Spirit, and an act of unreserved dedication to God - now saves us.” (Barnes’ Commentary)
Nowhere is baptism not conjoined with faith or repentance. And, therefore, the idea of baptism magically effecting salvation by the mere application of water has no basis.
Ah, I love the way things get twisted, points get ignored and Scripture is used to suit one’s purpose rather than seen in the light the Lord meant, as one continuous tale, taken together to form a correct picture.
That the non Catholic does this is why I call them piecemeal Christians, each taking snippets of Scripture and trying to force them together while leaving out or ignoring others. The result is a myriad of incomplete understandings of the whole of God’s word. Jumbled up puzzles that only resemble each other rather than fit together into a cohesive picture that reveals the Truth.
In truth, many, too many, Catholics think like these non Catholics, but they do not direct the placing of the puzzle pieces. What they do is like those pictures that you can’t see the hidden image until you look at it a certain way.
Despite these Catholics, and I would have them not be such, the Catholic Church itself remains true to what has been revealed to her, weaving the written word, with the Sacred Tradition and the teachings of the Magisterium into a rich and vibrant tapestry of God’s revelation.
“Ah, I love the way things get twisted,”
I’ve twisted nothing. Just keeping you honest with what the scripture says.
“The result is a myriad of incomplete understandings of the whole of God’s word. “
Until you acknowledge and understand the actual doctrine of grace in the scripture, none of your theological ideas will ever fit with the scripture.
“with the Sacred Tradition and the teachings of the Magisterium into a rich and vibrant tapestry of God’s revelation.”
Previously being a Roman Catholic myself, once you are born again, all the teachings of Rome seem quite moldy and dead. I call it Playing at Religion, but not actual religion.
******The lesson was not for Peter, since Peter learned the lesson before the Holy Spirit fell. Since Peter did not need convincing, there was no impediment for water baptism, followed by the usual signs and wonders. The people witnessing it would have been just as struck, and no one would be able to question what the point of water baptism is since it’s allegedly to cause what they had just witnessed.*****
How conveniently “and us” is left out there. The lesson begins for Peter with the vision and ends when the Holy Spirit comes upon Cornelius. It is then he proceeds to baptize Cornelius and his household. Again, Peter would have to totally reject the words Jesus had spoken directly to him to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Also, Peter would not then have baptized Cornelius immediately following. It’s that simple. Say what you will, Scripture clearly says that Peter states that he cannot deny water, i.e. baptism which would mean that baptism was effective and necessary. Cornelius and his household had to still be baptized.
But, in the lesson we learn that the kingdom of God is for all, even those we may not believe are included. That’s God’s call, not ours.
****This was right before Christ ascended to heaven, and therefore is after Christ breathed on them to “receive the Holy Ghost.”****
Yes, proving that the coming of the Holy Spirit is more than a one time occurrence, that we have a lifetime of the Holy Spirit coming over us to lead us to truth and give us the grace to proclaim the Gospel.
Jesus doesn’t say, “Receive the Holy Spirit, well actually this is just a promise to receive the Holy Spirit, sort of a preview of things to come.”
NO, He said, “Receive the Holy Spirit” and he breathed on them. Period, no qualifier, just those simple words.
*****You also ignore the other points which show that the signs and wonders that the Apostles received on Pentecost were indistinguishable from that which occurred to Cornelius. If Peter says it is the “same as us,” you cannot tell me what part of the Holy Spirit they still lacked that water baptism needed to complete.*****
Cornelius and his family were baptized for the remission of their sins, their rebirth into Christ. Again and again and again I have explained that the sequence with Cornelius is unique and it is so because what had to be revealed was that Gentiles were also included in the new covenant.
I never said any part of the Holy Spirit was lacking, in either the Apostles after Jesus breathed upon them or in Cornelius when the Holy Spirit came upon him.
Peter says in Acts 2:38, “Repent and be baptized, everyone of you in the name of Jesus, for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
That is the norm, the ordinary means, but as we see with Cornelius, not the only means. This has been my argument from the beginning.
****Yes, really, unless you have a problem with the scriptures I quoted. They’re quite clear and already deal with your objections.****
I have no problem with the Scriptures you quoted, but with the way they are presented in a piecemeal fashion that ignores others which are seemingly contradictory.
Romans 11:22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
To continue in His goodness, would indicate someone who has received the grace of God and remained there. What happens to those who fell? They were cut off. Cut off from what?
And furthermore;
Romans 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
To be grafted again would mean that they had been grafted, fell away and needed to be grafted onto the vine again.
1 Timothy 4:16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
What happens if one does not persevere? And how does one save themselves? Paul is speaking here to BELIEVERS, those who are in Christ’s body. What does he mean?
These are but a few of the verses that contradict that is is impossible for a believer to fall away. There is no Scripture which supports the claim that those who fall away never were believers int he first place.
How about this from Jesus in Matthew 24?
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Or in Mark 13?
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
*****why are we cooperating with God “in order to remain in Him and have eternal life”? Salvation is to eternal life what eternal life is to salvation.*****
in Ephesians 2...For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do
Paul tells us in Timothy that Scripture is for preparing the servant of God may be equipped for every good work.
Our good works are those things that bear fruit. If one does not bear fruit, then one is cut off from the vine to whither and die.
God says, I have set a path before you, choose.
We choose to follow the path God has set. We choose life over death. We choose by our actions when we endure in faith, cooperating with God’s plan through our deeds.
*****But, that salvation is entirely by God, literally “forced” on us, is already demonstrated by the other scriptures I posted.*****
Salvation is indeed entirely by God, but never forced upon us. Even if we are saved, we have the free will still to reject salvation and God’s grace. If God were to force anything on us, we no longer have the free will to choose Him. We are puppets.
****I’ll add that the reason why this is is because man, by his own nature, is simply incapable of seeking God or serving Him:****
We have free will to choose to follow the call of God. So, while none may seek God on his own, God has written His law in our hearts and calls to us constantly, but He allows us to choose.
*****“IF it were possible.*****
“If” is a qualifier which means the possibility exists even if only slightly, even if only miniscule. Were it impossible, then that is what God would have said here. That it is impossible/ But the impossibility is qualified with if.
With God, it is possible. The sacraments of the Church make it possible. I have faith. You, apparently -- judging by the posts you made, -- lost it. Repent and it will be forgiven you.
The sense is, that baptism, including all that is properly meant by baptism as a religious rite - that is, baptism administered in connection with true repentance, and true faith in the Lord Jesus, and when it is properly a symbol of the putting away of sin, and of the renewing influences of the Holy Spirit, and an act of unreserved dedication to God - now saves us.” (Barnes’ Commentary)
Why do you quote some fellow named Barnes? Christ I know; St. Peter I know. St. Paul I know. Him, -- I don't know.
Baptism saves because St. Peter says it does, -- not because the rite involves water and we wash dirt with water, but because the innocent soul: that of a baby or of a repentant adult -- dies and is born again.
****I’ve twisted nothing.****
Reread the posts and see where things I said were changed to words put in my mouth rather than what I actually said.
****Until you acknowledge and understand the actual doctrine of grace in the scripture, none of your theological ideas will ever fit with the scripture.*****
Where have I denied the actual doctrine of grace? Where have I said that salvation comes to us in any way other than through God’s grace?
****Previously being a Roman Catholic myself, once you are born again, all the teachings of Rome seem quite moldy and dead*****
The teachings of the Church, which is not just in Rome but throughout the world as Jesus said it would be, are alive in those whose heart is turned toward Him.
“The lesson begins for Peter...”
The lesson was learned for Peter, as the moment he began preaching the Gospel, per his own understanding that God is no respecter of persons, guaranteed that it would end with baptism no matter what. There is therefore no “lesson” that needed to be summed up with an unexpected Holy Spirit infilling.
“Cornelius and his household had to still be baptized.”
Of course, but not for the purpose of giving the Holy Spirit or salvation, since that happened when the Spirit fell on them mid-preaching.
“Yes, proving that the coming of the Holy Spirit is more than a one time occurrence,”
Proving that the coming of the Comforter was fulfilled after Christ’s ascension in a permanent fashion on all believers, and not just temporarily as He used to fall on Prophets, or Kings, during the Old Testament.
Whatever the case, it also proves that the Baptism with the Spirit on Pentecost was THE event, which occurred in exactly the same way on Cornelius and his family with signs of speaking in tongues, etc.
“NO, He said, “Receive the Holy Spirit” and he breathed on them. Period, no qualifier, just those simple words.”
No signs and wonders came with the statement, and Thomas was absent at the time. (Did he miss out?) Christ also promises the coming of the Holy Spirit and asks them to wait until Pentecost to receive Him.
“I never said any part of the Holy Spirit was lacking, in either the Apostles after Jesus breathed upon them or in Cornelius when the Holy Spirit came upon him.”
Then you have no argument. Since if Cornelius and his family were not lacking, then there is nothing in water baptism to “complete” the infilling.
“That is the norm, the ordinary means,”
Since the Holy Spirit is not actually given by water baptism, there is no evidence that there is a magical power to the mere sprinkling of water. Therefore, baptism as a public display of conversion, a commitment to taking on Christ as Lord and Savior, is the proper meaning of baptism. Under this view, there are no exceptions, and it is a spiritual regeneration in the heart of a BELIEVER that is most important.
The Catholic view makes it a superstitious ritual, since it does away with belief and personal reformation altogether, even though this always accompanies baptism. “REPENT, and be baptized” etc.
“To continue in His goodness, would indicate someone who has received the grace of God and remained there. What happens to those who fell? They were cut off. Cut off from what?”
The chapter is in the context of national Israel being cut off, and actually confirms the doctrine of election:
Rom 11:1-8 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. (2) God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, (3) Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. (4) But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. (5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. (7) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (8) (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Notice how Paul praises election. The Jews sought after salvation, but it is election (God) which has obtained it. Those who are not elected are blinded.
Rom 11:20-23 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: (21) For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. (22) Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (23) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Paul goes on to warn them against “highmindedness,” as if they were superior to the Jews who were cut off, and their own salvation secured by grace (and not works). Notice that the crime here is unbelief. They (the Jewish nation) are cut off for unbelief (though they can be grafted back in through belief), and the Gentiles abides through belief, not through the working of the law. As Paul teaches, we receive righteousness not through our works, but by our faith:
Rom 4:4-7 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, (7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
And it is by grace that we are saved through that faith, and not of ourselves.
Rom_9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy
“And how does one save themselves? “
You can’t:
Rom_3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Nor can anyone who is drawn be lost:
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
“12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
Php 2:12-13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
It is God who works in us, and sustains us, and wills in us. And this perseverance is one of faith in Jesus Christ, not of moral perfection or even perseverance in good works.
“We choose to follow the path God has set. “
Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Sorry, that’s not compatible with the scriptures.
““If” is a qualifier which means the possibility exists even if only slightly, “
Christ said that the delusions would be so terrible that they would deceive the very elect... IF that were possible. Meaning it is not possible. If it was possible, Christ would not have said “if it were possible” to lighten his statement.
“Where have I denied the actual doctrine of grace?”
Roman theology states that grace can be dispensed through rituals, and that grace must be maintained through obedience. The scripture teaches that God’s favor is defined as a free gift on an undeserving sinner without the working of the law.
“The teachings of the Church, which is not just in Rome but throughout the world as Jesus said it would be, are alive in those whose heart is turned toward Him.”
Try to be holy then. Try your best to save yourself. I promise you, unless God has ordained you to eternal life, you will never see heaven on the basis of your works. Your inability to live up to God’s standard, on the contrary, will condemn you.
Too tired to continue tonight.
Will do so when time permits.
Good night.
You’re not a Jew, and if you already know, why bother with a sign?
“until the Holy Spirit reveals it to you”
Are you sure you’re not a modern Gnostic, one with secret knowledge only a few have? You need to be careful about the discernment of spirits. There have been times when I thought God was revealing something to me, and it turned out to be my own idea. I’m not talking about sin or the commandments but about decisions that I had to make. In my opinion, the spirit that would lead you to break union with the Catholic Church is not the Holy Spirit, but a prideful spirit. I know you think the same about me. One of the reasons I believe Jesus left us one central authority was the way human beings see things differently and continually divide themselves.
“Are you sure you’re not a modern Gnostic, one with secret knowledge only a few have? You need to be careful about the discernment of spirits. There have been times when I thought God was revealing something to me, and it turned out to be my own idea. I’m not talking about sin or the commandments but about decisions that I had to make. In my opinion, the spirit that would lead you to break union with the Catholic Church is not the Holy Spirit, but a prideful spirit.”
The scripture teaches that salvation itself depends on the Holy Spirit revealing that Jesus Christ is the Lord (1Co_12:3), and that no one chooses Christ, it is Christ who chooses them (John 15:16). Unless God literally draws you, you cannot come to saving knowledge on your own. So it follows then, unless God makes you a spiritual man, you cannot truly understand the scripture:
1Co 2:13-15 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (15) But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
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