Posted on 05/10/2013 7:36:49 PM PDT by boatbums
Unless you eat by Body and drink my Blood you will not have life everlasting.
Jesus said to them again, Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.
Pretty clear language. Either Our Lord is God and He means it, or not.
Amen.
It seems that God would want us all to love each other as we love ourselves.
At this ominous time in our history, would it not be good for us Christians, although we see things from different perspectives, to love and strengthen each other?
Previous post meant for All.
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html
The unanimous consent of the fathers actually opposes the Roman Catholic interpretation of Matthew 16:18 and its attendant ecclesiology. Augustine is typical of the fathers as a whole in this interpretation of Mt. 16:18:
Remember, in this man Peter, the rock. He's the one, you see, who on being questioned by the Lord about who the disciples said he was, replied, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On hearing this, Jesus said to him, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you...You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her. To you shall I give the keys of the kingdom. Whatever you bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall also be loosed in heaven (Mt 16:15-19). In Peter, Rocky, we see our attention drawn to the rock. Now the apostle Paul says about the former people, They drank from the spiritual rock that was following them; but the rock was Christ (1 Cor 10:4). So this disciple is called Rocky from the rock, like Christian from Christ...Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peters confession. What is Peters confession? You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. Theres the rock for you, theres the foundation, theres where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer.14
These comments by Augustine are highly significant. He does state that Peter is the rock. But he goes on to explain what he means by that statement. It does not mean that the Church is built on Peters person but on his confession of faith in Jesus Christ. http://www.christiantruth.com/Beckwith-Response-to-Return-to-Rome.html
You may disagree, and I myself do no make CFs determinative of doctrine (nor does Rome actually), but if had have read what he said before you could have more accurately presented his polemic.
Later
Exactly so. Boatbums can claim all he wants, but he needs to provide some actual evidence to support his position.
I thank Boatbums for providing an accout of my friend Francis Beckwith. I didn’t know all the particulars. It’s good to know that we have some excellent and thorough biblical scholars on our side.
“this work is very helpful in that it assures Christians, who know Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, that they are already “home” and will spend eternity with him in Heaven.”
Hm...do we need anything but scripture to tell us this?
So if clear, then you are unequivocally (as you must to be consistent) affirming that no one may have eternal life unless they physically consume the literal body and blood of Jesus?
You also believe that Jn. 20:21-23 was only stated to the apostles?
Later
Yet you would reject the text which states that “this is My body”, this is “my blood”.
See, here’s the problem boatbums. You can cite Father after Father after Father, but in the end it comes down to this.
Do we see any of the fathers defend your position that communion is ‘symbolic’, and deny the Real Presence? I want to see it. Show me!
So what’s your reply, dear Boatbums? You’ve been accused, once again, of taking Fathers out of context.
Which bishop do you willingly submit yourself to?
As well as spoke out against contraception. ;)
Say Hallelujah!
Can we say that after one of those mackerel snapper credos with all the funny talk?
I really had to hold myself back when I read your post. You are the one who needs to “read your Bible.” In particular, the verse that says “And the wall of the city had 12 foundations, and in them the names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb.” Without a foundation there cannot be any walls so what good with a gate do? And why would you be quoting New Testament scripture when you only believe in the Torah?
Ironical, isn't it? Free Republic Religion Forum gets regular threads posted by Catholics boasting of all the great former Protestants that "swam the Tiber" and joined the Catholic Church, but post a thread by a former Catholic who is now an Evangelical Protestant and who goes into detail about why he did so, and he's a convoluted joker? Tsk, tsk, what hypocrisy lies in wait here?
As for Augustine and his views about St. Peter, I would hope you were aware of a few things. First, he's NOT an inspired writer - which means he is giving his opinion of why he believed the way he did when he lived. MANY things change over time. Second, it is not wise to cherry-pick a man's writing and snippet hunt for just the right words one thinks will prove ones theory. It's best to read things IN CONTEXT. That means the who, what, when and where of what the writing is concerning. Now, Augustine was a very learned man who no doubt loved the Lord and sought to plumb the depths of his faith. A man can only go so far. Sometimes, he finds he needs to go back and reconsider something he might have said when he was younger and not as learned as he became. This is just such a case when we read what he said concerning Peter. From the link http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/search?q=augustine+and+the+rock, we can learn:
"In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: On him as on a rock the Church was built...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God, and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received the keys of the kingdom of heaven. For, Thou art Peter and not Thou art the rock was said to him. But the rock was Christ, in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable."
Source:The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1.
Here's another few interesting Augustine quotes on this subject:
"And I tell you...You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her. To you shall I give the keys of the kingdom. Whatever you bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall also be loosed in heaven (Mt 16:15-19). In Peter, Rocky, we see our attention drawn to the rock. Now the apostle Paul says about the former people, They drank from the spiritual rock that was following them; but the rock was Christ (1 Cor 10:4). So this disciple is called Rocky from the rock, like Christian from Christ...Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peters confession. What is Peters confession? You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. Theres the rock for you, theres the foundation, theres where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer."
Source: John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Vol. 6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327.
"But whom say ye that I am? Peter answered, Thou art the Christ, The Son of the living God. One for many gave the answer, Unity in many. Then said the Lord to him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjonas: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father which is in heaven. Then He added, and I say unto thee. As if He had said, Because thou hast said unto Me, Thou art the Christ the Son of the living God; I also say unto thee, Thou art Peter. For before he was called Simon. Now this name of Peter was given him by the Lord, and in a figure, that he should signify the Church. For seeing that Christ is the rock (Petra), Peter is the Christian people. For the rock (Petra) is the original name. Therefore Peter is so called from the rock; not the rock from Peter; as Christ is not called Christ from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. Therefore, he saith, Thou art Peter; and upon this Rock which Thou hast confessed, upon this rock which Thou hast acknowledged, saying, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God, will I build My Church; that is upon Myself, the Son of the living God, will I build My Church. I will build thee upon Myself, not Myself upon Thee.For men who wished to be built upon men, said, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas, who is Peter. But others who did not wish to built upon Peter, but upon the Rock, said, But I am of Christ. And when the Apostle Paul ascertained that he was chosen, and Christ despised, he said, Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? And, as not in the name of Paul, so neither in the name of Peter; but in the name of Christ: that Peter might be built upon the Rock, not the Rock upon Peter. This same Peter therefore who had been by the Rock pronounced blessed, bearing the figure of the Church."
Source: Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume VI, St. Augustin, Sermon XXVI.1-4, pp. 340-341).
"And this Church, symbolized in its generality, was personified in the Apostle Peter, on account of the primacy of his apostleship. For, as regards his proper personality, he was by nature one man, by grace one Christian, by still more abounding grace one, and yet also, the first apostle; but when it was said to him, I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven, he represented the universal Church, which in this world is shaken by divers temptations, that come upon it like torrents of rain, floods and tempests, and falleth not, because it is founded upon a rock (petra), from which Peter received his name. For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. For on this very account the Lord said, On this rock will I build my Church, because Peter had said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed, I will build my Church. For the Rock (Petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself built. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus. The Church, therefore, which is founded in Christ received from Him the keys of the kingdom of heaven in the person of Peter, that is to say, the power of binding and loosing sins. For what the Church is essentially in Christ, such representatively is Peter in the rock (petra); and in this representation Christ is to be understood as the Rock, Peter as the Church."
Source: Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume VII, St. Augustin, On the Gospel of John, Tractate 124.5.
"Before his passion the Lord Jesus, as you know, chose those disciples of his, whom he called apostles. Among these it was only Peter who almost everywhere was given the privilege of representing the whole Church. It was in the person of the whole Church, which he alone represented, that he was privileged to hear, To you will I give the keys of the kingdom of heaven (Mt 16:19). After all, it isnt just one man that received these keys, but the Church in its unity. So this is the reason for Peters acknowledged preeminence, that he stood for the Churchs universality and unity, when he was told, To you I am entrusting, what has in fact been entrusted to all. I mean, to show you that it is the Church which has received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, listen to what the Lord says in another place to all his apostles: Receive the Holy Spirit; and straightway, Whose sins you forgive, they will be forgiven them; whose sins you retain, they will be retained (Jn 20:22-23). This refers to the keys, about which it is said, whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven (Mt 16:19). But that was said to Peter. To show you that Peter at that time stood for the universal Church, listen to what is said to him, what is said to all the faithful, the saints: If your brother sins against you, correct him between you and himself alone"
Source: John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (Hyde Park: New City, 1994), Sermons, III/8 (273-305A), On the Saints, Sermon 295.1-3, pp. 197-198).
His polemic is all "lawyered" up. When Christ named Peter(the Rock)from Simon. He is addressing someone outside of himself because Christ is the builder.
Matthew 18 And I tell you, you are Peter(The Rock),[d] and on this rock[e] I will BUILD MY church, and the powers of death[f] shall not prevail against it.[g] 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,[h] and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
He is addressing "The Rock"that was named by him. Peter.
See post 58. Also did you ever read the original documents by themselves without piecemeal verses. I have. I believe if you really do it. It will help you.
Peace to you Sister in our Lord.
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