Posted on 05/14/2013 3:08:38 PM PDT by rhema
I was flying from Los Angeles to Miami when I found myself sitting next to two women. Sarah was sitting closest to me. She was 29, inappropriately dressed, with a ring through her nose, and she wasn’t the friendliest person I have sat next to on a plane. After we took off I couldn’t help but notice that her friend kept kissing her on the cheek, holding her hand, and rubbing her shoulder. They were gay, and that little revelation lifted my planned witnessing encounter up a big notch on the awkward-meter. I really didn’t want an angry gay couple complaining to the airline (and the media) that I was a homophobic fundamentalist, imposing my hate-speech by saying that they were going to Hell because they were gay.
I waited until she had eaten, finished her movie, and simply said, “Sarah. I have a question for you. Do you think there’s an afterlife?” She wasn’t sure, so I asked, “If Heaven exists, are you going there? Are you a good person?” She predictably said she was, so I took her through three of the Ten Commandments—had she lied, stolen, and taken God’s name in vain? She had broken all three, so we then looked at whether or not she would be guilty on Judgment Day and whether she would go to Heaven or Hell. I then shared the cross, and the necessity for repentance and faith in Jesus. I didn’t mention her sexual orientation; I didn’t need to nor did I want to. I simply shared the moral Law (the Ten Commandments)—because the Bible says that the Law was “made” for homosexuals—see 1 Timothy 1:8-10. She wasn’t offended, and I kept her friendship and stayed out of jail.
Trying to witness to someone who is about to take the life of her child is also high on the awkward list. It’s awkward, mainly because the mind of this person is preoccupied with what she is about to do and therefore it’s difficult to get her attention. However, if she would stop and talk I would handle the situation similarly to my conversation with Sarah. The reason for that is that I don’t want to reform people. I didn’t want Sarah to stop being gay and end up in Hell for her lying, theft and blasphemy. I don’t want to just stop a woman from killing her child, and have her go to Hell for her other sins. With God’s help I want to see more than a change of mind. I want to see a change of heart.
Contrary to popular opinion, most who take the life of their child through abortion believe in God. Even the staunchest fundamentalist atheist believes in God. I know because I have an inside source. I have a “Whistle-blower.”
“For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools…” (Romans 1:20-22).
Those who abort the life of their children are “idolaters,” illustrated in the fact that their god condones the taking of a human life. They have no fear of God before their eyes. So your agenda, with the help of God, is to stir her God-given conscience to do its duty and put the fear of God within her, and you can do that, as I did with Sarah and the gay issue, without even mentioning the elephant in the room—the impending abortion. To put the fear of God in someone means that you will have to stay with the biblical gospel. Do not use the “God has a wonderful plan” message because it is both unbiblical and will do more damage than good. If you really believe that that message is biblical, think for a few moments about how the first eleven disciples were murdered for their faith. If you know Church history, you will know that the foundation of the Church is founded in the blood of the saints. Jesus warned that people would kill Christians thinking that they are doing God a favor.
Imagine you have been asked to preach the gospel to 1,000 people on the 100th floor of the World Trade Center the night before 9/11. You know that within 24 hours every person looking at you will die a death so horrific it defies human imagination. Many will be burned alive. Others will jump 100 stories to their deaths on the unforgiving sidewalks of New York. Others will fall with the building and be so crushed that their bodies will never be recovered. What are you going to tell them—that God has a wonderful plan for their lives? You can’t say that to people who are about to die! Instead you would soberly tell them that it’s appointed to man once to die and after this, the judgment. You would tell them that God is holy, that He will judge them by His perfect Law, that Hell is very real and that they desperately need a Savior. You would tell them that they could die within 24 hours, and plead with them to repent and trust alone in Jesus. If you have to change the message you normally preach, then you are not preaching the biblical gospel. Why would you have a different message for people who are walking the streets of this world, and are about to die? Every day 150,000 people throughout this world pass into death, many of whom will die in terrible ways—through horrific car accidents and through the suffering of cancer.
Think of David and Nathan the prophet. David had coveted his neighbor’s wife, stolen her, lived a lie, committed adultery and murdered her husband. He had violated the Ten Commandments but he wasn’t too worried. His conscience wasn’t doing its duty. God had commissioned Nathan to expose the king’s terrible sin. So what did Nathan say? Did he say, “David, God has a wonderful plan for your life”? What has that got to do with anything? David was a criminal, and Nathan was there to expose his crimes, not speak of some wonderful plan. The faithful preacher began in the natural realm with a story about the theft and slaughter of a poor man’s lamb, and when David became indignant about that man’s sin, Nathan said, “YOU are that man. Why have you despised the Commandment of the Lord!” And that’s when David cried, “I have sinned against God.” Think for a moment as to whether or not the wonderful plan message could never have elicited that response. Why should it? It doesn’t bring any knowledge of sin or the fear of God. It doesn’t stir the conscience. But the Law does. It made David tremble. The Law stirred the king’s seared conscience so that it would do its God-given duty, and we can see its result in the penitent prayer of Psalm 51. And that’s what we must do with those who see nothing wrong with the taking of the life of their unborn child. Their terrible sin must be made personal so that the fear of the Lord causes them to depart from it. The instant someone is converted to Jesus Christ they know that means no more lying, stealing, lust, pornography, homosexuality, fornication, adultery, idolatry and no murdering of your own children.
In Mark 10:17 we are told of the story of the rich young ruler who ran to Jesus, kneeled down and said, “Good master. What must I do to inherit eternal life?” He ran (was earnest), he kneeled down (he was humble), and he asked the question we so wish the world would ask, “What must I do to inherit eternal life?” But instead of leading him in a sinner’s prayer, Jesus reproved him of his use of the word “good.” Proverbs 20:6 says, “Most men will proclaim each his own goodness,” and they certainly do. Ask anyone if they think they are a good person and most will say that they are. So Jesus used the Ten Commandments to bring the knowledge of sin to show him that he wasn’t good at all. He, like Nathan, made sin personal. Paul did this in Romans 2 when he said, “You who say you shall not steal; do YOU steal? You who say you shall not commit adultery, do YOU commit adultery?” Such faithful talk will cause the sinner to tremble as Felix trembled when Paul reasoned with him—not about some wonderful plan, but of “sin, temperance and judgment.”
The stirring of the dormant conscience coupled with a knowledge that a holy God will hold her accountable should be enough to put the fear of God within someone who is about to commit the murder of her own offspring. May God help us to be faithful, courageous, and give us wisdom and help us to stop such slaughter.
You can learn how to do this through free resources on www.livingwaters.com
Kevmo: The situation that the thief on the cross was in is the same situation that the vast majority of nonbelievers find themselves in today.
Daniel: That is honestly absurd,
***No it is not absurd. ALL of us are going to die. Most of us have already acknowledged we’re not perfect.
unless perhaps you are in some prison, as very very very few souls are convicted of their need for salvation as damned+destitute sinners, being under the burden of sin, as we see in Acts 2, and 16.
***I can see you don’t like the analogy, but I’m not the one who put it there. God did.
In fact a major error today is that preaching a message that targets a suicidal jailer convicted of his need for salvation,
***See, the Holy Spirit did His job of convicting the man. Peter didn’t have to.
and who thus cries out, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
Jesus testified to the world that the things it did were evil, as in warning, “woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.” (Luke 6:24-25) For in contrast, “The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.” (Psalms 34:18)
***Again, non sequitur. If these people already know Jesus died for their sins and that they’re not perfect, then we need to focus on God’s love for them. Pretty simple.
Your theology is also very superficial, as the fact that Christ died for us does not mean souls are already forgiven, but they must repent and believe in order to be so.
***You are arguing against something which I have not said, making it a straw argument. Perhaps it is your theology which is superficial.
The NT does not just preach that God love them, nor that they are already forgiven because of what Christ did, but tells souls they are damned+destitute and in need of salvation, which is why convicted souls cried out for how.
***Again, you’re arguing against stuff I have not said, making it yet another straw argument. When you get around to arguing what I ACTually said, then we can have a reasonable discussion.
Again, this does not mean they are already forgiven, thus the command, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)
thus He convicts them of sin ***Exactly. He does it. We don’t have to.
Nowhere does Scripture say or teach this, but instead it abundantly shows that the Holy Spirit normatively instrumentally uses men to do so, even if He is not restricted to that means.
Thus the positive reaction of souls to apostolic preaching, as well as the negative reaction, such as that of Felix mentioned before, And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee. (Acts 24:25)
Jesus said he came not to judge — Out of context ***The context is Jesus talking to Nicodemus, right after saying that he needed to be born again and the famous “For God so loved the world”... In that passage He says
And which is just what i said, that Jesus mission was not to come to sentence the world as He will when all His enemies are made His foostool, but to save:
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:17)
But which most manifestly did not mean He did not judge in the sense of telling souls they were specific sinners, which is what you erroneous protest against, nor is that what Mt. 7:1 preclude, and in if it did, then it would leave you guilty of judging souls for judging!
Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. (Matthew 11:20-21)
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. (Matthew 23:25-26)
And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (Mark 9:42-45)
See, they’re condemned already. And notice that Jesus doesn’t focus on telling Nicodemus about his sins. Again, He focuses on love.
You are highly selective and have a very unbalanced message along with perverse views. They are condemned because rejecting Jesus means you love sin over Him, as 3:19-22 explains, and v. 36 warns "the wrath of God abideth on him," and rather than not preaching on sin, instead He stated, "The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil." (John 7:7)
And I have given you and can give you far more texts which focus on warning lost souls of judgment then telling them God loves them.
Again, this does not mean they are already forgiven,
***Maybe it does. God extended His forgiveness on the cross, once for all. Remission of sins takes place when we repent. But just because a person doesn’t repent, that doesn’t mean they are unforgiven by God. They just have not accepted it, and that spiritual condition will send them to hell if they don’t do something about it. At any rate, we are talking around the issue.
I have proved it, if you cared to look up the sermons in which the gospel is preached, while Jn. 3 also preaches of sin, righteousness and judgment, and call souls to repentance, as teaches calls those who reject Christ love sin over Him who is righteous, and upon whom the wrath of God abides, while those who believe are showing repentance. And other messages are to a wider audience and give a fuller description of the gospel preaching. The things you miss!
thus He convicts them of sin ***Exactly. He does it. We don’t have to.
Daniel:
Nowhere does Scripture say or teach this, but instead it abundantly shows that the Holy Spirit normatively instrumentally uses men to do so, even if He is not restricted to that means.
***Fine, then. Produce the scriptures that proves this point and I’ll be on my way.
And which is just what i said, that Jesus mission was not to come to sentence the world as He will when all His enemies are made His foostool, but to save: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:17)
***You’re saying what I said, you’re talking in circles.
But which most manifestly did not mean He did not judge in the sense of telling souls they were specific sinners, which is what you erroneous protest against,
***nope, wrong. He Himself came to save rather than condemn. He admonishes us not to judge. There’s a reason for that. Americans already know they’re not perfect. The Holy Spirit has already done His job of convicting of sin. So we don’t have to.
nor is that what Mt. 7:1 preclude, and in if it did, then it would leave you guilty of judging souls for judging!
***Non sequitur.
Wrong wrong wrong. As has been shown you, the Holy Spirit normatively uses people to convict them of sin, righteousness and judgement, and does not simply focus on the love of God to the complacent masses, which most are in the West, not some desperate honest convicted criminal with hours to live! To which masses Jesus warned they would hunger and weep, and warned the impenitent of damnation, as did the apostles whom you presume to correct.
I have proved it, if you cared to look up the sermons in which the gospel is preached, while Jn. 3 also preaches of sin, righteousness and judgment
***Show me. Here’s John 3. Point out where it commands us that we have to tell nonbelievers that they are sinners.
3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d]
9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[e] 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[f] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[g]
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
John Testifies Again About Jesus
22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23 Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized. 24 (This was before John was put in prison.) 25 An argument developed between some of John’s disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing. 26 They came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—look, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him.”
27 To this John replied, “A person can receive only what is given them from heaven. 28 You yourselves can testify that I said, ‘I am not the Messiah but am sent ahead of him.’ 29 The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom’s voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. 30 He must become greater; I must become less.”[h]
31 The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33 Whoever has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34 For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God[i] gives the Spirit without limit. 35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
Wrong wrong wrong. As has been shown you, the Holy Spirit normatively uses people to convict them of sin,
***Then it should be easy for you to come up with bible verses that explicitly delineate this requirement for us to convict nonbelievers of sin.
You are highly selective and have a very unbalanced message along with perverse views.
***This is the reason why I stay away from most religion threads. If you cannot back your statements with scripture then we’re done here. You answer my questions, with direct scripture, then maybe I will engage. But here step over the line and if you don’t step back on, it’s the end of the story.
Simply giving facts about Jesus is no more the gospel preaching than just telling them God loves them, but as shown by Jesus who spoke of judgment more than heaven, it involves showing the lost their sins in the light of God's holiness and justice, in which light they can see their need for grace and be motivated to be saved. As seen in Scripture.
If you want statistics then you came to the right person. See here .
24% of the public overall and 22% of Christians say they believe in reincarnation -- that people will be reborn in this world again and again. 25% of the public overall, and 23% of Christians [so-called] indicated they believe in astrology. http://pewforum.org/newassets/images/reports/multiplefaiths/multiplefaiths.pdf),
Nearly 30% of Americans reported that they have felt in touch with someone who had died, (33% of women versus 26% of men). Almost 20% say they have seen or been in the presence of ghosts, while 15% have consulted a fortuneteller or a psychic.^
65% of American adults expressed belief in or reported of having experience with at least one of 8 different manifestations of occultic supernatural phenomena: 1. reincarnation; 2. spiritual energy located in physical things; 3. yoga as spiritual practice; 4. the "evil eye;" 5. astrology; 6; having been in touch with the dead; 7. having consulting a psychic; 8. having experiencing a ghostly encounter. This includes 23% of the general population who reported having only one of these beliefs or experiences, while 43% of the people surveyed answered two or more of these items affirmatively.^
Simply giving facts about Jesus is no more the gospel preaching than just telling them God loves them, but as shown by Jesus who spoke of judgment more than heaven, it involves showing the lost their sins in the light of God’s holiness and justice, in which light they can see their need for grace and be motivated to be saved.
***You don’t know how to address the points made. The great bulk of your posts have been straw arguments, arguing against something I didn’t say and not realizing the point made. That doesn’t seem to stop you from engaging in insults towards a brother in Christ.
Americans know they’re not perfect. They know that Jesus died for their sins. But what they don’t know is that God loves them. They don’t know that Jesus is God Himself, and that it’s simple history to point out that He was put to death for that claim.
See ya. I’m not interested in working around your straw arguments just to see maybe you have a valid point, because your points lack love (1cor13).
Why do you think "ye must be born again?" You need a new heart and which results in a new life, while those who are lost love sin over Christ, and the wrath of God abides on them.
Meanwhile, again, the thief on the cross was most unlike most people, else they would be running around declaring how they are getting the judgment they deserve and asking to be saved. Why can't you get this?!
Again, the things you miss, while acting like the whole of gospel preaching is in two chapters.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Perhaps, we need to introduce Kevmo to God's Word and what IT does?....
"For the WORD of God is ALIVE and ACTIVE. Sharper than any double-edged sword, IT penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; It judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." Heb 4:12
And it continues until we see Jesus face-to-face.
"The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit."
AMEN! It's the ones who truly search their soul often with His Word they will see how destitute they were before they were saved, children of the dark, and realize how much they have to be thankful for. And will say, I was really that bad when I thought I was a good person? And almost want to hide like Adam/Eve did. Without Jesus we are nothing and hopeless.
It does address your point, as not knowing that Jesus was put to death because He claimed to be God Himself is not why souls do not believe on Him, but because they love sin more then Him, as saith Jn. 3.
You not only have a manifestly superficial view of teaching and preaching in Scripture, but of your own teaching and my constant refutations, of which i let others judge. Time to get some sleep by God's grace.
It is not reading their mind, it is an observation of their inability to form a coherent argument. I’ve signed off this thread, so thanks for the moderation. There have been several insults hurled at me upthread, so I invite your moderation of those as well.
"And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Go you therefore, and TEACH all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: TEACHING them to observe all things whatever I have commanded you: and, see, I am with you always, even to the end of the world. Amen."
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