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Who's a Jew {interesting read about Karaites v/s Rabbinical Judaism}
The Economist | May 2013 | Economist

Posted on 05/20/2013 11:29:59 PM PDT by Cronos

WHEN is a Jew not a Jew? When he’s a Karaite. Or so says Israel’s chief rabbinate, which, after 65 years of relative harmony with an ancient Jewish sect, is reopening an old and bitter schism. In recent months, rabbis working for Israel’s ministry of religion have deemed Karaite marriages invalid, fined their butchers for claiming to be kosher, and demanded that Karaites marrying Orthodox Jewish women should convert, sometimes having to undergo tavila, or baptism. “We are already Jews,” protests Moshe Firrouz, a computer engineer who heads the Karaites’ Council of Sages. “The rabbinate is denying us our religious freedom.”

For over 1,300 years Karaites have battled with Rabbanites (adherents to mainstream Judaism) over their rejection of the Talmud, the corpus of an oral tradition that Rabbanites claim God gave Moses with the written Torah on Mount Sinai. Clinging to the biblical word alone, Karaites regard skullcaps, phylacteries (little leather boxes containing Torah scrolls), matrilineal descent and non-biblical festivals, such as the Festival of Lights, as pagan accretions. Like Muslims or—as they prefer to say—like Temple-era Jews, they prostrate barefoot on carpets. “The Orthodox add and the Reform take away,” says a recent Karaite convert. “It is only we who follow the Torah.”

Once almost as numerous as Rabbanites, today’s Karaites make up less than 1% of Israel’s 6m Jews. Persecution has whittled their number down. The greatest classical Jewish theologian, Moses Maimonides, denounced them as minim, or heretics, and banned them from public prayer; others termed their children bastards, since their parents married in weddings which diverged from the Orthodox rite.

...Karaites have lesser Jewish rights, too. “Israel is a Jewish state and Jews have superior rights,” says the chief rabbinate’s spokesman. “But the Karaites are not Jewish.”


TOPICS: Current Events; Judaism
KEYWORDS: debate; faithandphilosophy; judaism; karaites; rabbis; vanity
An interesting community -- one of the remnants from historical times along with Samaritans and Mandeans and Yazidis...

from the article: .. Elders have sloughed off their skullcaps and stopped lighting candles on Friday nights, in line with a biblical injunction against burning flames on the Sabbath.

1 posted on 05/20/2013 11:29:59 PM PDT by Cronos
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To: Cronos

Would really like more information on this group. Do you have any recommendations?


2 posted on 05/21/2013 12:09:58 AM PDT by ladyL (.)
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To: Cronos

There’s something innate in religion that causes schisms.


3 posted on 05/21/2013 12:28:48 AM PDT by Natufian (t)
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To: Cronos

bookmark


4 posted on 05/21/2013 12:35:49 AM PDT by Pharmboy (Democrats lie because they must.)
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To: Cronos

Jews I could like.


5 posted on 05/21/2013 12:59:03 AM PDT by kabumpo (Kabumpo)
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To: ladyL
The Karaite Halakah by Bernard Revel

or The History of the Jewish People by Moses Shulvas

6 posted on 05/21/2013 1:04:13 AM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: Cronos
This article is complete nonsense. It does not even contain an author's name.... and little wonder. The Karaites ARE considered Jews, They are considered just a different sect of Jews by all, with the exception of the Ultra-Otrthodox Jewish ( Hariedi )sects, who tend not regard any other sect of Judaism- such as Traditional Orthodox, Flexidox, Modern Orthodox, Conservative, or Reformed, as Torah Observant Jews, either...lol. So, it is no surprise that they would reject the Karaites, as well. They do follow Torah, but the argument is that if you do not follow the Talmud, then you do not know how the laws are applied. For those who do not know what the Talmud actually is, let me remove the mystery. It is simply a written compendium of ongoing discussions, opinions, and Rabbinc rulings on the oral law by various Rabbis over several hundred years. There are actually 2 of them. The Jerusalem and the Babylonian. 3,325 years ago, Moshe Rabbeinu (Moses) brought down the Tablets which contained the 10 Commandments. The 10 Commandments is the "outline headers" or "categories" of the 613 Mitzvot ( Commandments) a Jew must perform. But.... he also brought down the Oral Law- the explanations of how they were to be applied, and thus, he taught the people, well before he transcribed the Torah, and made a scroll for each tribe. The Oral law is the explanation/details and the "How-to's." Karaites reccognize the Tanakh- the 24 seferim ( Books) of the Torah as the authority in Halakha ( Jewish Law). They maintain that all of the divine commandments handed down to Moshe by HaShem were recorded in the written Torah, without the need of additional Oral Law or explanation. As a result,they do not accept as binding, the written collections of the oral tradition in the Mishnah or Talmud. They do not light the Shabbas Candles, nor wear Tefillin, or place Mezzuzot on their doorposts. This article also falsely accused Maimonides ( The Rambam), as well. He did not hold the authority to ban anyone from public prayer. No Rabbi does. "Maimonides, wrote that people who deny the divine authority of the Oral Torah are considered among the heretics. However, at the same time Maimonides holds (Hilkhot Mamrim 3:3) that most of the Karaites and others who claim to deny the "oral teachings" are not to be held accountable for their errors in the law because they are led into error by their parents and are similar to a tinoq shenishbah (a captive baby), or to one who was forced. Rabbinic scholars have traditionally held that, because the Karaites do not observe the rabbinic law on divorce, there is a strong presumption that they are mamzerim (adulterine bastards), so that marriage with them is forbidden even if they return to Rabbinic Judaism. Some recent Ashekenazi Ḥaredi scholars have held that Karaites should be regarded as Gentiles in all respects, though this is not universally accepted. They hasten to add that this opinion is not intended to insult the Karaites, but only to give individual Karaites the option of integrating into mainstream Judaism by way of conversion. In contrast, in 1971 Rav ‘Ovadia Yosef, who was then the Rishon LeṢiyyon/Chief Rabbi of the Sefaradim and ‘Edot HaMizraḥ of Israel, proclaimed that Karaites are Jews "LeKhol Davar" (literally, for all purposes) and that it is permissible for Rabbanite Jews to marry with them." The accusation that they have lesser rights is absolute nonsense. And the author of the article is a liar. Little wonder he hides his name. Cronos, you really should check the validity of your sources before posting articles of this nature. It is very misleading. In fact, it is total and complete crap.
7 posted on 05/21/2013 1:32:10 AM PDT by Never A Dull Moment
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To: Cronos

More promotion of the Hebrew martial arts, Karaite and Jeudo. /s


8 posted on 05/21/2013 1:58:54 AM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: ladyL

http://www.karaite-korner.org
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nehemia_Gordon
there are others


9 posted on 05/21/2013 2:08:37 AM PDT by mreerm
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To: Never A Dull Moment

Paragraphs are your friend. I would have liked to read what your wrote, but at 5:30 AM I am not going to even attempt it.


10 posted on 05/21/2013 2:34:51 AM PDT by Hacksaw
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To: mreerm

The Karaites wouldn’t be in Israel unless they were admitted under the Law of Return. That what counts, not their 1,000-year dispute with the rabbis. During WWII Karaites, in the Crimea, persuaded the Germans that they weren’t Jews and weren’t rounded up. But in the Ukraine they were taken to Babi Yar. They confused the Germans; in some parts of Europe they were taken, in some parts they weren’t. There was one German woman who had an obsession that the Karaites were getting away with it (being a Jew) and pestered Eichmann and his bureaucrats all through the war not to let it happen.


11 posted on 05/21/2013 2:44:06 AM PDT by idov
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To: Cronos

Where’s the link?


12 posted on 05/21/2013 4:08:39 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro can't pass E-verify)
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To: ladyL

There are only a few thousands of Karaites, who almost all live in Israel. They should not be confused with Christian heretics who CLAIM to be Karaites but have no historic connection.

Lots of web information about real Karaites on the web, as long as Christian interpretations are noted.

As with anyone who is thought to be or claims to be Jewish, the official determination (such as for marriage) is made on a case-by-case basis.


13 posted on 05/21/2013 4:47:06 AM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: Cronos

And without the messiah, all of their destination is the same as any lost jew or gentile...


14 posted on 05/21/2013 5:36:24 AM PDT by delchiante
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To: Hacksaw; Never A Dull Moment; rmlew; Eleutheria5
"Paragraphs are your friend."

I'll do it for him; BTW, while his reply could use some links (for those not knowledgeable on Hebrew names / text titles), imho it's a good read.

This article is complete nonsense. It does not even contain an author's name.... and little wonder.

The Karaites ARE considered Jews, They are considered just a different sect of Jews by all, with the exception of the Ultra-Otrthodox Jewish ( Hariedi )sects, who tend not regard any other sect of Judaism- such as Traditional Orthodox, Flexidox, Modern Orthodox, Conservative, or Reformed, as Torah Observant Jews, either...lol. So, it is no surprise that they would reject the Karaites, as well.

They do follow Torah, but the argument is that if you do not follow the Talmud, then you do not know how the laws are applied.

For those who do not know what the Talmud actually is, let me remove the mystery. It is simply a written compendium of ongoing discussions, opinions, and Rabbinc rulings on the oral law by various Rabbis over several hundred years. There are actually 2 of them. The Jerusalem and the Babylonian.

3,325 years ago, Moshe Rabbeinu (Moses) brought down the Tablets which contained the 10 Commandments. The 10 Commandments is the "outline headers" or "categories" of the 613 Mitzvot ( Commandments) a Jew must perform.

But.... he also brought down the Oral Law- the explanations of how they were to be applied, and thus, he taught the people, well before he transcribed the Torah, and made a scroll for each tribe. The Oral law is the explanation/details and the "How-to's."

Karaites reccognize the Tanakh- the 24 seferim ( Books) of the Torah as the authority in Halakha ( Jewish Law). They maintain that all of the divine commandments handed down to Moshe by HaShem were recorded in the written Torah, without the need of additional Oral Law or explanation. As a result,they do not accept as binding, the written collections of the oral tradition in the Mishnah or Talmud. They do not light the Shabbas Candles, nor wear Tefillin, or place Mezzuzot on their doorposts.

This article also falsely accused Maimonides ( The Rambam), as well. He did not hold the authority to ban anyone from public prayer. No Rabbi does.

"Maimonides, wrote that people who deny the divine authority of the Oral Torah are considered among the heretics. However, at the same time Maimonides holds (Hilkhot Mamrim 3:3) that most of the Karaites and others who claim to deny the "oral teachings" are not to be held accountable for their errors in the law because they are led into error by their parents and are similar to a tinoq shenishbah (a captive baby), or to one who was forced.

Rabbinic scholars have traditionally held that, because the Karaites do not observe the rabbinic law on divorce, there is a strong presumption that they are mamzerim (adulterine bastards), so that marriage with them is forbidden even if they return to Rabbinic Judaism.

Some recent Ashekenazi Ḥaredi scholars have held that Karaites should be regarded as Gentiles in all respects, though this is not universally accepted. They hasten to add that this opinion is not intended to insult the Karaites, but only to give individual Karaites the option of integrating into mainstream Judaism by way of conversion.

In contrast, in 1971 Rav ‘Ovadia Yosef, who was then the Rishon LeṢiyyon/Chief Rabbi of the Sefaradim and ‘Edot HaMizraḥ of Israel, proclaimed that Karaites are Jews "LeKhol Davar" (literally, for all purposes) and that it is permissible for Rabbanite Jews to marry with them."

The accusation that they have lesser rights is absolute nonsense. And the author of the article is a liar. Little wonder he hides his name.

Cronos, you really should check the validity of your sources before posting articles of this nature. It is very misleading. In fact, it is total and complete crap.

PS - Here's the link to the original at The Economist. If you need an emetic, read the comments there, it's heavy with jew-haters, barely-hidden nazis and assorted jihadi-lovers.
15 posted on 05/21/2013 7:35:35 AM PDT by Yehuda
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To: Natufian

“There’s something innate in religion that causes schisms.”

Thanks for regurgitating liberal/left propaganda.


16 posted on 05/21/2013 9:29:30 AM PDT by ifinnegan
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To: idov
The Karaites wouldn’t be in Israel unless they were admitted under the Law of Return. That what counts, not their 1,000-year dispute with the rabbis. During WWII Karaites, in the Crimea, persuaded the Germans that they weren’t Jews and weren’t rounded up. But in the Ukraine they were taken to Babi Yar. They confused the Germans; in some parts of Europe they were taken, in some parts they weren’t. There was one German woman who had an obsession that the Karaites were getting away with it (being a Jew) and pestered Eichmann and his bureaucrats all through the war not to let it happen.

The Karaylar, Tatar Karaites, are not normal Karaites. Most Karaites in Israel and the US are Egyptian Jews. The Karaylar are Tatars who speak a Kipchak dialects. They did not call themselves Jews, but Turks of the Mosaic faith. They were treated as non-Jews by the Czars. In Lithuania, Karaylar were slaughtered. In Crimea, the Muslim and Christian Tatars protected them. The Karaim, Rabbinate Tatar Jews were afforded no protection and were slaughtered.
17 posted on 05/21/2013 9:50:24 AM PDT by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: Karaite

If you are still active, I hope you’ll join in.


18 posted on 05/21/2013 9:50:59 AM PDT by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: Hacksaw

Sorry about the lack of paragraphs. I type ‘em, but they don’t show up. Any ideas why????

Amazing the BS these Jew haters post........


19 posted on 05/21/2013 12:51:43 PM PDT by Never A Dull Moment
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To: Yehuda

Thanks for doing that! For some reason, my computer doesn’t always do them on this site.


20 posted on 05/21/2013 12:53:35 PM PDT by Never A Dull Moment
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To: Never A Dull Moment

No problem - check your FR mail.


21 posted on 05/21/2013 1:40:24 PM PDT by Yehuda
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To: Yehuda

Toda Rabah! ( Thank you very much! , in Hebrew)


22 posted on 05/21/2013 2:20:50 PM PDT by Never A Dull Moment
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To: Never A Dull Moment; AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; ColdOne; ...

Thanks Never A Dull Moment! A great and apropos nick’, btw. :’)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3021932/posts?page=7#7


23 posted on 05/21/2013 4:35:42 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Romney would have been worse, if you're a dumb ass.)
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To: A.A. Cunningham
that is strange, I posted it and now it's gone

Oh, well, http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21578098-old-religious-argument-once-again-rears-its-angry-head-whos-jew that's the link

24 posted on 05/21/2013 5:13:50 PM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: Never A Dull Moment

Thanks for the points of correction.


25 posted on 05/21/2013 5:15:41 PM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: Never A Dull Moment

I think you need to add in HTML tags


26 posted on 05/21/2013 5:23:42 PM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: delchiante

As any lost gentile, yes. An observant Jew, however, is still under the Old Covenant which God made with Moses which is not repealed. God’s covenant remains.


27 posted on 05/21/2013 5:28:39 PM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: jjotto
They should not be confused with Christian heretics who CLAIM to be Karaites but have no historic connection.

Interesting -- I had roughly heard of Crimean Karaites, but your post indicated more details. These early medieval communities like Karaites, Mandeans etc. are fascinating historically as remnants of earlier populations or religious thoughts

28 posted on 05/21/2013 5:36:05 PM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: ifinnegan; Natufian

well, it’s not only true of religion, but anything that has got human’s involved — like the lilliputians and Blefuscu folks. People interpret things differently — at any event there are 3 sides to the story :)


29 posted on 05/21/2013 5:41:17 PM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: Cronos; Never A Dull Moment

“I think you need to add in HTML tags”

Not to go off topic, but I have found that if I put in NO html tags or links, FR’s comment posting page then formats my paragraphs exactly as I write, preview and post them.

IF I put one set or more of html tags, and/or an embedded link (as opposed to just copying and pasting the link), then I lose all my uncoded paragraph breaks, and I have to format the entire reply / comment with HTML.

I use Safari on a Mac, and ymmv...


30 posted on 05/21/2013 5:42:11 PM PDT by Yehuda
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To: SunkenCiv

This is an eye-opener. I thought the last Karaites disappeared centuries ago. The Khazars were Karaites, for instance.


31 posted on 05/21/2013 7:22:07 PM PDT by Berosus (I wish I had as much faith in God as liberals have in government.)
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To: Berosus

Very unlikely Khazars were Karaites, if the story of their conversion is even true. More likely is that, as the Khazars disappeared, some remnant of them became Karaites rather than leave Judaism completely.


32 posted on 05/21/2013 8:01:12 PM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: SunkenCiv

My pleasure! Thanks!


33 posted on 05/21/2013 8:32:56 PM PDT by Never A Dull Moment
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To: Cronos

You are welcome....


34 posted on 05/21/2013 8:34:37 PM PDT by Never A Dull Moment
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To: Berosus

Before I begin this one, let me apologize in advance if it does not format properly.

The Khazars were NOT Karaites. Here’s another one of those little “mysteries” I can help out on.

In the 8th century, as a result of the influx and influence of the Jews migrating throughout the region, the nation of Khazar, much of its royalty and aristrocracy converted to Judaism.

The conversion was performed by Rabbi Yitzak HaSangari. The result was a more tolerant and harmonious society. The Jews, who were educated in many other nations, brought with them the culture, arts, and technologies of the civilization/nations they fled from.. The direct result was that the Khazars became an Asian steppe tribal society that successfully made the transition to an urbanite society.

Eventually, the Khazars and the Balkins were conquered by Sviatoslav of Kiev. However, most of the families of the original migrating Jews remained in the region. World Wars 1 & 2, along with the rebirth of the State of Israel, led to mass Jewish immigration out of the region.

Many people, generally Anti-Semites, try to state that these people were not of Jewish blood. But this is incorrect. Genetic testing shows that they are indeed, without question of the same Jewish people who were still living in the Middle East and other areas. So, any discussion of Ashkenazi Jews not being “original” Jews is simply moot.

The Karaites were not part of the Khazars. Most of them remained in the Middle East. Many lived in Egypt.


35 posted on 05/21/2013 9:02:17 PM PDT by Never A Dull Moment
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To: Berosus; SunkenCiv; Never A Dull Moment; jjotto
So did I, but we have some informed posters pointing out details (see above from NADM etc) -- there are 2 "types" of Karaites (and I found that out in the past day): the religious group and then Turkic peoples from what was the Ukraine who use the term Karaite. They may be descendents of Khazars.

The Khazars were definitely originally followers of Tengriism/shamanism and their realm was multi-religious. The elite may have converted or not, things are still uncertain

36 posted on 05/21/2013 11:28:21 PM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: Never A Dull Moment; Berosus

The ruling elite may have converted to Judaism, not the entire realm which remained with multiple religions.


37 posted on 05/21/2013 11:29:27 PM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: Cronos

Jeremiah 31 Behold,the days come,saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel,and with the house of Judah:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I
took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake,although I was an husband unto them,saith the LORD:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days,saith the LORD,I will put my Torah in their inward parts,and write it in their hearts; and will be their G-d,and they shall be my people.34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother,saying,Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them,saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity,and I will remember their sin no more.

Only one way their is forgiveness of sin... shedding of blood... His only begotten Son took all of our placev. the new covenant is here and now.. To the Jew first and also to the Gentile. Believe and be baptized in His Son’s name for the remission of your sins and you will receive the gift of His Holy Spirit.... and His law will be written on your heart..


38 posted on 05/22/2013 7:24:56 AM PDT by delchiante
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To: Cronos

Actually, a good portion of the population did convert. The Rabbi made records, all Rabbis are required to, which is how we know who the Rabbi was, and who the people were.


39 posted on 05/24/2013 12:15:15 AM PDT by Never A Dull Moment
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To: Never A Dull Moment

that’s what I believed as well, but I’ve read conflicting items and there isn’t adequate proof. What we do have is about the elite of the population converting, but the Khazar khaganate was made up of multiple nations


40 posted on 05/24/2013 7:30:26 AM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros->Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: Cronos

There are plenty of Karaite sites around. You can find some in the link section along the right side of the following page where you will find documentation on other chief rabbi’s opinions which hold that Karaites are Jews.

http://www.peshat.com/index.php?itemid=31
Are Karaites Jews?


41 posted on 06/10/2013 11:54:37 AM PDT by peshat
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To: Cronos

There were numerous genetic tests run, and by a number of highly respected research and medical institutions, world wide. They are all are conclusive. They are indeed Jews that descend from the original Hebrews.


42 posted on 06/23/2013 1:04:23 AM PDT by Never A Dull Moment
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