Skip to comments.Pope Francis says atheists can do good and go to heaven too!
Posted on 05/24/2013 2:25:17 AM PDT by DaveMSmith
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Revelation 14:11 “And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”
If your auto manual said you should change the oil in your car ever 7,000 miles “for ever and ever”, it would be interpreted to mean “until you no longer have the car”. A lot of the english translations of “forever” in the bible don’t really mean “for time neverending”. In fact, in some cases it was a short time indeed.
I don’t think it sounds like that at all.
I have a direct line to Jesus, I don`t need anyone else to fill that role.
Good for you. I imagine the Pope does too.
Francis explained himself, "The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart, do good and do not do evil. All of us. 'But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.' Yes, he can... "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ, all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! 'Father, the atheists?' Even the atheists. Everyone!" We must meet one another doing good. 'But I don't believe, Father, I am an atheist!' But do good: we will meet one another there."
I agree with you. Same thing with some lapsed Catholics I know. Thanks to their upbringing (and maybe some things they'd rather not acknowledge), their actions would qualify them as near-exemplars of Christianity, except for the whole not going to church and mouthing off about the pope/priests/church stuff.
Only problem is that is the same approach Adam and Eve took in the Garden of Eden which led to the fall.
Here is the actual link: http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/05/22/pope_at_mass:_culture_of_encounter_is_the_foundation_of_peace/en1-694445
The question isn't about a mild mannered-individual growing up in a culture shaped by religion. Can an atheist society thrive for generations, has it ever?
If America was suddenly sprayed with a chemical that removed all belief in God, and made everyone 100% purely free of any concept of God and a soul and an after life, and removed all residue and traces of any connection with that past, I don't think that the result would be positive.
The nature of Adam and Eve were they represent people of a celestial nature who had the Word written on their hearts... the people after were spiritual and have free will.
We are spiritual beings. We are influenced by good and evil and can choose in freedom our path. Rejecting evil by seeing something as a bad 'habit' or whatever rubs your conscious the wrong way does not matter - trust the Lord will lead to all truth.
Some of the most avid evangelists are reformed atheists. Are you saying that they cannot see the light and accept Christ? If that is the case, none of us can be saved because of the sins we committed and Christ died for nothing.
I do not believe his intent was to indicate that a "practicing" atheist, who has never come to believe before he dies or when Christ comes again, would be saved - has the Pope let on that he is a Universalist? If not, folks are making way too much hay of what he said.
I really don’t know if there have been any purely atheist societies, or pure any beliefs. I doubt there ever has, knowing human nature.
I imagine that’s why God made so many different types of people over the ages.
Faith is the work of God. The work of God is not represented all though the Bible as the Philistines, the dragon, and the goats in Daniel and Matthew. They do not represent faith.
As soon as one adds something to faith in Christ, it isn’t faith in Christ.
Obama, Pelosi, Kerry and the rest ALL think they are doing good.....................
And yes, faith is implanted by the Lord - we are vessels - He is the source.
That ignored my post.
True to form.
But as said in response to your past recourse to the genesis fallacy, “despite your attempt to divert attention to Martin, who is just one apologist who exposes you, the fact remain that Borg presents a radical different Jesus, Spirit and gospel, as stated in posts on previous threads.
By rejecting the plenary inspiration of about half of the established Scriptures and by denying core truths (including the literal atonement, as passages that refer to the body and blood of Jesus are allegorically made to refer to the Divine Good and Divine Truth which proceeds from his Divine Human), both of which were a result of his esoteric occultic revelations and his highly allegorical hermeneutic, and by making his own writings as Scripture (I enjoy a complete inspiration), borg moved out of the realm of NT Christianity and joins the ranks of Joseph Smith, Ellen G. White, Mary Baker Eddy and others who also claimed a whole series of divine visions to justify their teachings.
http://archive.org/details/swedenborgianis00socigoog (Swedenborgianism examined : Pond)
http://craigwmiller.tripod.com/interest.htm (Did Emanuel Swedenborg Influence LDS Doctrine?)
Thus your attempt to use FR to propagate Borg doctrine resulted it is being negatively exposed, and will be.
Do they? Or do they have other motives? They don’t seem to trust God for much of anything...
Read post 110, see if you can figure it out.
Your defense of atheism was misguided.
I’m not defending atheism.
You asked about an atheist society existing for any length of time, and I explained that I didn’t know of any.
Have there been any purely atheist societies? Let me know, and I will attempt to answer.
The second part of your 110 was a statement, wasn’t it?
HOW do you wish it 'upgraded'?
And He is STILL in control!
No matter WHAT the Boy Scouts have voted!!
Jesus answered, The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.
1 John 3:21-24
Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. The one who keeps Gods commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
Luke 18:8b (NIV)
When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?
You posted post 76 in defense of atheism.
Total atheism is impossible for a reason.
They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.Who has made this so?Have I?Have this people?Have the world?No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.Can you pass without his inspection?No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?
--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224
Hey, if you think saying that I don’t see why atheists can’t do good things is defending atheism, ok. I don’t really care if it’s possible or not.
Are those who say atheists can’t do good things denying the fact that they do feed the hungry, give to the poor, etc?
I’m really not seeing how anyone can deny that.
Now is doing good more meaningful when we are doing it in response to our love for God? Absolutely.
I suspect Pope Francis has been considering recent Muslim violence in his promotion of first performing good, in order to find a meeting place to plant the seed.
It sounds reasonable to a believer as an act of grace.
I don’t believe it equally addresses how degenerate some may have become. A sinner who hasn’t heard the Gospel, but continues to think by worldly perspectives is discernible from a sinner who has also heard and considered the Gospel, rejected Him directly, and continues to degenerate.
The difference in grieving the Holy Spirit and Quenching the Holy Spirit is that God may have allowed the sinner to further degenerate and our attempts to intervene can place us between God and the discipline of our fellow man (not a good place to stand).
Beats me, I got no idea what that guy was talking about. I have no idea how to figure out if one person’s good doing is any better than any others. That guy probably does though, he seems pretty picky about stuff.
...The disciples, Pope Francis explained, "were a little intolerant," closed off by the idea of possessing the truth, convinced that "those who do not have the truth, cannot do good." "This was wrong... Jesus broadens the horizon." Pope Francis said, "The root of this possibility of doing good - that we all have - is in creation."
But oh, that "Catholic Online" headline....
The way I have seen it best expressed, is that an unbeliever might perform a good work, but not good by Divine Standards. So when the Book of Works is opened up at the Great White Throne Judgment, those works not performed through faith in Christ, will fail to meet His criterion of righteousness, and His righteous Judgment will not accept them as evidence of righteousness.
Likewise, accepting the works performed as good independent of Christ, in order to find a common ground to plant the seed, can merely exacerbate future problems.
It can promote legalism, vice grace. A person’s mind is shaped by his thinking. As we solve problems independent of Christ, we scar our soul for future problem solving. If we continue to entrench our thinking upon what is right in our own eyes, we trend towards thinking independently of Him in the future. It becomes a stumbling stone to those not yet in faith with Him.
When I use the term ‘faith alone in Christ alone’, it isn’t meant to deny good works, nor that we continue to grow through faith in Him.
Instead, it is intended to an audience who has never considered or exercised simple faith in Christ.
It is an attempt to communicate how one thinks when they are exercising faith in what He performed on the Cross.
A full life also enjoys work through faith in Him, our living God, in everything He provides, explicitly through faith alone in Christ alone.
Problems? By following God's Will?
Very few i believe from what i have seen, and in the spirutual realm none that can be proved to be temporary. And to the contrary, the eternality of eternal life for the saved has as its counterpart the eternality of the second death for the lost.
The latter are to be sent forth to the same place as the devil, if not suffering to the same degree:
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: " (Matthew 25:41)
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. " (Matthew 25:46)
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. " (Revelation 20:10)
And it is certain that if the suffering is temporary, there is little deterrent effect in the Lord's warning that one should plucking out his eye if that caused you to sin, rather than going where "their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." (Mk. 9:43-49)
Well, he did get the atheist's attention: Atheists Like What They See In Pope Francis' New Openness [HuffPo]
And to the contrary, the eternality of eternal life for the saved has as its counterpart the eternality of the second death for the lost.
And I understand the difference between “life” and “death”.
My old ‘63 rambler is not just dead. It is “eternally” dead. It ain’t comin’ back.
Was Saul performing good works or evil works on the body of believers, before he had his encounter on the Road to Damascus?
Saul would not have become Paul without his past. He repented. Anyone can do likewise.
I find this very doubtful. To be an atheist today is to have rejected Christ, which is a sin isn’t it?
We have a winner
“Technically, I believe that is a pretty small subset of the non-believers.”
No, it includes all unbelievers:
Rev 20:10-15 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
There is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ:
Joh_3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
“Also, the word interpretted as for ever and ever does not necessarily mean what most people think when they read the phrase for ever and ever.”
No, for ever and ever is what it means.
After the crucifixion, he ‘preached the souls in prison’.
They were the people who’d died before He came.
“I agree with you.”
You agree together on the myth of human goodness. The truth is, mankind is totally depraved.
Rom 3:10-20 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (13) Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: (14) Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: (15) Their feet are swift to shed blood: (16) Destruction and misery are in their ways: (17) And the way of peace have they not known: (18) There is no fear of God before their eyes. (19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. (20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
There isn’t anyone who is good, neither Jew nor Greek. To hope to be saved by your works is the same thing as saying, from the biblical sense, that you intend to die by your inability to achieve the perfection required by God.
Mat_5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
This perfection doesn’t just refer to not sinning anymore, but also that all your “good” works are perfect “as your Father in heaven is perfect.” But all your righteousness, in the sight of God, is nothing but foulness.
Isa_64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
The bottom line is that the only one who is actually good... is God Himself.
Mar_10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Therefore salvation is by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God. In fact, faith is itself the gift of God, for no one can believe who is not chosen by God.
But, reinCARnation is a FACT in these days of metal recycling!
Narrow definition of 'atheist'.
Muslims have 'rejected' Christ.
Wiccans have 'rejected' Christ.
Buddhists have 'rejected' Christ.
MORMONs have added to Christ.
“After the crucifixion, he preached the souls in prison.
They were the people whod died before He came.”
1Pe 3:18-20 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The spirits “in prison” here is in reference to the antediluvians, which “sometime were disobedient... in the days of Noah...” NOT to those who died before the time of Jesus Christ. Furthermore, the word “preached” is not euangelizo, but is ekeruxen, which is a more general proclamation as opposed to Gospel preaching. The meaning is that Christ “preached” to those who (now, but not then) are spirits in prison, whom Christ with “longsuffering... waited in the days of Noah.” In other words, the preaching mentioned in the previous verse, is the “longsuffering” wait of God in the latter verse that took place in the days of Noah.