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Pope Francis says atheists can do good and go to heaven too!
Catholic Online ^ | 5/24/2013 | Catholic Online

Posted on 05/24/2013 2:25:17 AM PDT by DaveMSmith

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To: mitch5501

Revelation 14:11 “And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”


Technically, I believe that is a pretty small subset of the non-believers. Also, the word interpretted as “for ever and ever” does not necessarily mean what most people think when they read the phrase “for ever and ever”.

If your auto manual said you should change the oil in your car ever 7,000 miles “for ever and ever”, it would be interpreted to mean “until you no longer have the car”. A lot of the english translations of “forever” in the bible don’t really mean “for time neverending”. In fact, in some cases it was a short time indeed.


101 posted on 05/24/2013 7:06:41 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: mitch5501

I don’t think it sounds like that at all.


102 posted on 05/24/2013 7:15:48 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: stuartcr

I have a direct line to Jesus, I don`t need anyone else to fill that role.


103 posted on 05/24/2013 7:16:00 AM PDT by Bulwyf
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To: Bulwyf

Good for you. I imagine the Pope does too.


104 posted on 05/24/2013 7:21:12 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: DaveMSmith
The actual homily by Pope Francis does not even mention atheists!

Pope Francis: Suffering difficulties with patience and overcoming oppression with love

2013-05-24 1
   



Pope Francis: Suffering difficulties with patience and overcoming oppression with love



(Vatican Radio) “To suffer with patience and to overcome external and internal oppression with love.” That was the prayer of Pope Francis today at the Domus Sanctae Martae during Mass on the feast of Mary Help of Christians.

In his homily, Pope Francis requested two graces: “To endure with patience and to overcome with love.” These are “graces proper to a Christian.” “To suffer with patience,” he notes, “is not easy.” “It is not easy, whether the difficulties come from without, or are problems within the heart, the soul, internal problems.” But to suffer, he explained, is not simply to “bear with a difficulty.”:

“To suffer is to take the difficulty and to carry it with strength, so that the difficulty does not drag us down. To carry it with strength: this is a Christian virtue. Saint Paul says several times: Suffer [endure]. This means do not let ourselves be overcome by difficulties. This means that the Christian has the strength not to give up, to carry difficulties with strength.
Carry them, but carry them with strength. It is not easy, because discouragement comes, and one has the urge to give up and say, ‘Well, come on, we’ll do what we can but no more.’ But no, it is a grace to suffer. In difficulties, we must ask for [this grace], in difficulty.”

The other grace the Pope asks for is “to overcome with love”:

“There are many ways to win, but the grace that we request today is the grace of victory with love, through love. And this is not easy. When we have external enemies that make us suffer so much: it is not easy, to win with love. There is the desire to take revenge, to turn another against him ... Love: the meekness that Jesus taught us. And that is the victory! The Apostle John tells us in the first Reading: ‘This is our victory, our faith.’ Our faith is precisely this: believing in Jesus who taught us love and taught us to love everyone. And the proof that we are in love is when we pray for our enemies.”

To pray for enemies, for those who make us suffer, the Pope continued, “is not easy.” But we are “defeated Christians” if we do not forgive enemies, and if we do not pray for them. And “we find so many sad, discouraged Christians,” he exclaimed, because “they did not have this grace of enduring with patience and overcoming with love”:

“Therefore, we ask Our Lady to give us the grace to endure with patience and overcome with love. How many people – so many old men and women - have taken this path! And it is beautiful to see them: they have that beautiful countenance, that serene happiness. They do not say much, but have a patient heart, a heart filled with love.
They know what forgiveness of enemies is, they know what it is to pray for enemies. So many Christians are like that!”

The Mass was attended by employees of the Pontifical Council for Social Communications led by the president of the dicastery, Archbishop Claudio Maria Celli. And, on the Day of Prayer for the Church in China, Archbishop Savio Hon Tai-Fai, Secretary of the Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples, and a group of priests, religious, seminarians and lay people from China also attended the ceremony. At the end of the prayers of the faithful, the Pope prayed: “For the noble Chinese people: May the Lord bless them and Our Lady keep them.” The Mass concluded with a hymn to the Virgin Mary in Chinese.




105 posted on 05/24/2013 7:30:53 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
What homily was this from? Not what you quoted:

Francis explained himself, "The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart, do good and do not do evil. All of us. 'But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.' Yes, he can... "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ, all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! 'Father, the atheists?' Even the atheists. Everyone!" We must meet one another doing good. 'But I don't believe, Father, I am an atheist!' But do good: we will meet one another there."

106 posted on 05/24/2013 7:37:34 AM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: stuartcr
I’ve heard atheist here on FR say that they can do good, without believing in God. I don’t see why not.

I agree with you. Same thing with some lapsed Catholics I know. Thanks to their upbringing (and maybe some things they'd rather not acknowledge), their actions would qualify them as near-exemplars of Christianity, except for the whole not going to church and mouthing off about the pope/priests/church stuff.

107 posted on 05/24/2013 7:47:19 AM PDT by Tanniker Smith (Rome didn't fall in a day, either.)
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To: DaveMSmith
My take is the Pope is looking for a starting point - Charity and Goodwill first and faith will grow from there. If one looks to do good (with the implication they will reject evil), then the 'faith of a mustard seed' can be planted.

Only problem is that is the same approach Adam and Eve took in the Garden of Eden which led to the fall.

108 posted on 05/24/2013 7:52:08 AM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: DaveMSmith
Sorry, I should have known that the media would be a couple days late in not reporting the actual article about what the Pope said.

Here is the actual link: http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/05/22/pope_at_mass:_culture_of_encounter_is_the_foundation_of_peace/en1-694445

109 posted on 05/24/2013 8:01:38 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: stuartcr
I’ve heard atheist here on FR say that they can do good, without believing in God. I don’t see why not.

The question isn't about a mild mannered-individual growing up in a culture shaped by religion. Can an atheist society thrive for generations, has it ever?

If America was suddenly sprayed with a chemical that removed all belief in God, and made everyone 100% purely free of any concept of God and a soul and an after life, and removed all residue and traces of any connection with that past, I don't think that the result would be positive.

110 posted on 05/24/2013 8:07:28 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: Cvengr
Faith is within the understanding (truth) and cannot exist without the will (love or good). Faith alone is represented all though the Bible as the Philistines, the dragon, and the goats in Daniel and Matthew.

The nature of Adam and Eve were they represent people of a celestial nature who had the Word written on their hearts... the people after were spiritual and have free will.

We are spiritual beings. We are influenced by good and evil and can choose in freedom our path. Rejecting evil by seeing something as a bad 'habit' or whatever rubs your conscious the wrong way does not matter - trust the Lord will lead to all truth.

111 posted on 05/24/2013 8:20:16 AM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: Vendome
Well, that simply was not the export of what he said. He attempted to lead us to believe that even an atheist could be saved. The nature of their belief is at odds with the gift of salvation and God’s word. I’ll. Take the box Carol Meryl is standing in front of.

Some of the most avid evangelists are reformed atheists. Are you saying that they cannot see the light and accept Christ? If that is the case, none of us can be saved because of the sins we committed and Christ died for nothing.

I do not believe his intent was to indicate that a "practicing" atheist, who has never come to believe before he dies or when Christ comes again, would be saved - has the Pope let on that he is a Universalist? If not, folks are making way too much hay of what he said.

112 posted on 05/24/2013 8:24:29 AM PDT by trebb (Where in the the hell has my country gone?)
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To: ansel12

I really don’t know if there have been any purely atheist societies, or pure any beliefs. I doubt there ever has, knowing human nature.

I imagine that’s why God made so many different types of people over the ages.


113 posted on 05/24/2013 8:24:53 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: DaveMSmith

Faith is the work of God. The work of God is not represented all though the Bible as the Philistines, the dragon, and the goats in Daniel and Matthew. They do not represent faith.

As soon as one adds something to faith in Christ, it isn’t faith in Christ.


114 posted on 05/24/2013 8:24:59 AM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: DaveMSmith

Obama, Pelosi, Kerry and the rest ALL think they are doing good.....................


115 posted on 05/24/2013 8:26:31 AM PDT by PeterPrinciple
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To: Cvengr
I meant to say faith divorced from charity are those correspondences and what they represent.

And yes, faith is implanted by the Lord - we are vessels - He is the source.

116 posted on 05/24/2013 8:31:32 AM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: stuartcr

That ignored my post.


117 posted on 05/24/2013 8:31:45 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: DaveMSmith

True to form.

But as said in response to your past recourse to the genesis fallacy, “despite your attempt to divert attention to Martin, who is just one apologist who exposes you, the fact remain that Borg presents a radical different Jesus, Spirit and gospel, as stated in posts on previous threads.

See http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2962210/posts?page=70#70 and http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2962210/posts?page=86#86 and other posts

By rejecting the plenary inspiration of about half of the established Scriptures and by denying core truths (including the literal atonement, as passages that refer to the body and blood of Jesus are allegorically made to refer to the “Divine Good and Divine Truth” which proceeds from his Divine Human), both of which were a result of his esoteric occultic “revelations” and his highly allegorical hermeneutic, and by making his own writings as Scripture (”I enjoy a complete inspiration”), borg moved out of the realm of NT Christianity and joins the ranks of Joseph Smith, Ellen G. White, Mary Baker Eddy and others who also claimed a whole series of ‘divine visions’ to justify their teachings.

Additional info:
http://www.ukapologetics.net/11/swedenborgianism.htm
http://www.revjonathanwayfarers.org/sborg_theo/What_is_Bible.htm
http://archive.org/details/swedenborgianis00socigoog (Swedenborgianism examined : Pond)
http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Fellowship/SWEDENBORGIANISM.html
http://craigwmiller.tripod.com/interest.htm (Did Emanuel Swedenborg Influence LDS Doctrine?)

Thus your attempt to use FR to propagate Borg doctrine resulted it is being negatively exposed, and will be.


118 posted on 05/24/2013 8:32:49 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: PeterPrinciple

Do they? Or do they have other motives? They don’t seem to trust God for much of anything...


119 posted on 05/24/2013 8:34:12 AM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: ansel12

how?


120 posted on 05/24/2013 8:35:32 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: stuartcr

Read post 110, see if you can figure it out.

Your defense of atheism was misguided.


121 posted on 05/24/2013 8:48:23 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: ansel12

I’m not defending atheism.

You asked about an atheist society existing for any length of time, and I explained that I didn’t know of any.

Have there been any purely atheist societies? Let me know, and I will attempt to answer.

The second part of your 110 was a statement, wasn’t it?


122 posted on 05/24/2013 8:51:59 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: piusv
The format here in this forum makes it difficult enough to read the shorter posts. I wish they would upgrade it.

Huh?

HOW do you wish it 'upgraded'?

123 posted on 05/24/2013 8:54:10 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DaveMSmith
... a punishing, angry and vengeful God who sacrificed His own son for the sin of Adam was shoved down their throats as children.

And He is STILL in control!

No matter WHAT the Boy Scouts have voted!!

124 posted on 05/24/2013 8:58:04 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Salvation
“Regarding the debate about faith and works: It’s like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most important.”

Sigh...


 

John 6:28-29

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


1 John 3:21-24

Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.


125 posted on 05/24/2013 8:59:24 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: informavoracious
The Pope cannot ignore that atheism is rising in the world.

DUH!


Luke 18:8b (NIV)

When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?

126 posted on 05/24/2013 9:00:57 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: stuartcr
I’m not defending atheism.

You posted post 76 in defense of atheism.

Total atheism is impossible for a reason.

127 posted on 05/24/2013 9:03:35 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: Cvengr
As soon as one adds something to faith in Christ, it isn’t faith in Christ.

Like THIS??


What Joseph Smith Means to Us  (From: various sources )

 
 
 

"He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be."
- Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321
 
 
 
 
"You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a god..."
- Herber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 5:88
 
 
 
 
"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"
- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)
There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
 
 
 
 
"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."
- Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155
 
 
 
 
"It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,"
- Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670


They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.
He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.
He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.
As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.
Who has made this so?
Have I?
Have this people?
Have the world?
No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.
If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.
If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.
Can you pass without his inspection?
No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.
In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.
They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?
They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?
Brigham Young,

--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224


128 posted on 05/24/2013 9:04:00 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ansel12

Hey, if you think saying that I don’t see why atheists can’t do good things is defending atheism, ok. I don’t really care if it’s possible or not.


129 posted on 05/24/2013 9:28:42 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: stuartcr

Are those who say atheists can’t do good things denying the fact that they do feed the hungry, give to the poor, etc?

I’m really not seeing how anyone can deny that.

Now is doing good more meaningful when we are doing it in response to our love for God? Absolutely.


130 posted on 05/24/2013 9:31:08 AM PDT by piusv
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To: Salvation

I suspect Pope Francis has been considering recent Muslim violence in his promotion of first performing good, in order to find a meeting place to plant the seed.

It sounds reasonable to a believer as an act of grace.

I don’t believe it equally addresses how degenerate some may have become. A sinner who hasn’t heard the Gospel, but continues to think by worldly perspectives is discernible from a sinner who has also heard and considered the Gospel, rejected Him directly, and continues to degenerate.

The difference in grieving the Holy Spirit and Quenching the Holy Spirit is that God may have allowed the sinner to further degenerate and our attempts to intervene can place us between God and the discipline of our fellow man (not a good place to stand).


131 posted on 05/24/2013 9:33:11 AM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: piusv

Beats me, I got no idea what that guy was talking about. I have no idea how to figure out if one person’s good doing is any better than any others. That guy probably does though, he seems pretty picky about stuff.


132 posted on 05/24/2013 9:34:56 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: All
The Holy Father is full of surprises, born of true and faithful humility. On Wednesday he declared that all people, not just Catholics, are redeemed through Jesus, even atheists. However, he did emphasize there was a catch. Those people must still do good. In fact, it is in doing good that they are led to the One who is the Source of all that is good. In essence he simply restated the hope of the Church that all come to know God, through His Son Jesus Christ....

...The disciples, Pope Francis explained, "were a little intolerant," closed off by the idea of possessing the truth, convinced that "those who do not have the truth, cannot do good." "This was wrong... Jesus broadens the horizon." Pope Francis said, "The root of this possibility of doing good - that we all have - is in creation."

But oh, that "Catholic Online" headline....

133 posted on 05/24/2013 9:35:20 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: DaveMSmith

The way I have seen it best expressed, is that an unbeliever might perform a good work, but not good by Divine Standards. So when the Book of Works is opened up at the Great White Throne Judgment, those works not performed through faith in Christ, will fail to meet His criterion of righteousness, and His righteous Judgment will not accept them as evidence of righteousness.

Likewise, accepting the works performed as good independent of Christ, in order to find a common ground to plant the seed, can merely exacerbate future problems.

It can promote legalism, vice grace. A person’s mind is shaped by his thinking. As we solve problems independent of Christ, we scar our soul for future problem solving. If we continue to entrench our thinking upon what is right in our own eyes, we trend towards thinking independently of Him in the future. It becomes a stumbling stone to those not yet in faith with Him.


134 posted on 05/24/2013 9:39:37 AM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: DaveMSmith

Good point.

When I use the term ‘faith alone in Christ alone’, it isn’t meant to deny good works, nor that we continue to grow through faith in Him.

Instead, it is intended to an audience who has never considered or exercised simple faith in Christ.

It is an attempt to communicate how one thinks when they are exercising faith in what He performed on the Cross.

A full life also enjoys work through faith in Him, our living God, in everything He provides, explicitly through faith alone in Christ alone.


135 posted on 05/24/2013 9:46:43 AM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Cvengr
The Pope is talking about doing good and rejecting evil - outreach. Repentance, Reformation and Regeneration. Path to salvation. This is directed by the Lord. It's Divinely inspired no matter if it's from your version of the Bible or not.

Problems? By following God's Will?

136 posted on 05/24/2013 9:59:00 AM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: cuban leaf
If your auto manual said you should change the oil in your car ever 7,000 miles “for ever and ever”, it would be interpreted to mean “until you no longer have the car”. A lot of the english translations of “forever” in the bible don’t really mean “for time neverending”. In fact, in some cases it was a short time indeed.

Very few i believe from what i have seen, and in the spirutual realm none that can be proved to be temporary. And to the contrary, the eternality of eternal life for the saved has as its counterpart the eternality of the second death for the lost.

The latter are to be sent forth to the same place as the devil, if not suffering to the same degree:

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: " (Matthew 25:41)

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. " (Matthew 25:46)

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. " (Revelation 20:10)

And it is certain that if the suffering is temporary, there is little deterrent effect in the Lord's warning that one should plucking out his eye if that caused you to sin, rather than going where "their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." (Mk. 9:43-49)

137 posted on 05/24/2013 10:18:07 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Alex Murphy
LOL

Well, he did get the atheist's attention: Atheists Like What They See In Pope Francis' New Openness [HuffPo]

138 posted on 05/24/2013 10:20:33 AM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: daniel1212

And to the contrary, the eternality of eternal life for the saved has as its counterpart the eternality of the second death for the lost.


I completely agree.

And I understand the difference between “life” and “death”.

My old ‘63 rambler is not just dead. It is “eternally” dead. It ain’t comin’ back.


139 posted on 05/24/2013 10:34:25 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: DaveMSmith

Was Saul performing good works or evil works on the body of believers, before he had his encounter on the Road to Damascus?


140 posted on 05/24/2013 12:22:53 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Cvengr
"Evils Are Permitted for the Sake of the End, Which Is Salvation" Divine Providence 275 ~ Swedenborg.

Saul would not have become Paul without his past. He repented. Anyone can do likewise.

141 posted on 05/24/2013 12:31:58 PM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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I find this very doubtful. To be an atheist today is to have rejected Christ, which is a sin isn’t it?


142 posted on 05/24/2013 12:33:06 PM PDT by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: daniel1212

We have a winner


143 posted on 05/24/2013 12:52:34 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1Jn4:15;5:4-5,11-13;Mt27:50-54;Mk15:33-34;Jn3:17-18,6:69,11:25,14:6,20:31;Ro10:8-11;1Tm2:5-6;Ti3:4-7)
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To: cuban leaf

“Technically, I believe that is a pretty small subset of the non-believers.”


No, it includes all unbelievers:

Rev 20:10-15 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

There is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ:

Joh_3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

“Also, the word interpretted as “for ever and ever” does not necessarily mean what most people think when they read the phrase “for ever and ever”.”


No, for ever and ever is what it means.


144 posted on 05/24/2013 1:30:38 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Bigg Red

After the crucifixion, he ‘preached the souls in prison’.

They were the people who’d died before He came.


145 posted on 05/24/2013 1:38:56 PM PDT by Salamander (The only things that last forever are memories and sorrow.)
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To: Tanniker Smith

“I agree with you.”


You agree together on the myth of human goodness. The truth is, mankind is totally depraved.

Rom 3:10-20 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (13) Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: (14) Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: (15) Their feet are swift to shed blood: (16) Destruction and misery are in their ways: (17) And the way of peace have they not known: (18) There is no fear of God before their eyes. (19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. (20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

There isn’t anyone who is good, neither Jew nor Greek. To hope to be saved by your works is the same thing as saying, from the biblical sense, that you intend to die by your inability to achieve the perfection required by God.

Mat_5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

This perfection doesn’t just refer to not sinning anymore, but also that all your “good” works are perfect “as your Father in heaven is perfect.” But all your righteousness, in the sight of God, is nothing but foulness.

Isa_64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

The bottom line is that the only one who is actually good... is God Himself.

Mar_10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Therefore salvation is by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the gift of God. In fact, faith is itself the gift of God, for no one can believe who is not chosen by God.


146 posted on 05/24/2013 1:40:35 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Vendome

She’s dead.


147 posted on 05/24/2013 1:41:55 PM PDT by Salamander (The only things that last forever are memories and sorrow.)
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To: cuban leaf
My old ‘63 rambler is not just dead. It is “eternally” dead.


But, reinCARnation is a FACT in these days of metal recycling!

148 posted on 05/24/2013 1:53:05 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: GeronL
To be an atheist today is to have rejected Christ, which is a sin isn’t it?

Narrow definition of 'atheist'.

Muslims have 'rejected' Christ.

Wiccans have 'rejected' Christ.

Buddhists have 'rejected' Christ.

MORMONs have added to Christ.

149 posted on 05/24/2013 1:54:57 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Salamander; Bigg Red

“After the crucifixion, he ‘preached the souls in prison’.

They were the people who’d died before He came.”


1Pe 3:18-20 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The spirits “in prison” here is in reference to the antediluvians, which “sometime were disobedient... in the days of Noah...” NOT to those who died before the time of Jesus Christ. Furthermore, the word “preached” is not euangelizo, but is ekeruxen, which is a more general proclamation as opposed to Gospel preaching. The meaning is that Christ “preached” to those who (now, but not then) are spirits in prison, whom Christ with “longsuffering... waited in the days of Noah.” In other words, the preaching mentioned in the previous verse, is the “longsuffering” wait of God in the latter verse that took place in the days of Noah.


150 posted on 05/24/2013 1:58:58 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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