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Pope Francis says atheists can do good and go to heaven too!
Catholic Online ^ | 5/24/2013 | Catholic Online

Posted on 05/24/2013 2:25:17 AM PDT by DaveMSmith

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To: Salamander

So sorry.


151 posted on 05/24/2013 2:00:43 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: Vendome

Thank you.


152 posted on 05/24/2013 2:04:32 PM PDT by Salamander (The only things that last forever are memories and sorrow.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

So...are you saying those who died before He came are doomed or are you supporting the ‘everybody who is “good” eventually makes it to Heaven’ theory?


153 posted on 05/24/2013 2:06:42 PM PDT by Salamander (The only things that last forever are memories and sorrow.)
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To: stuartcr

You posted post 76 in defense of atheism.

To: Tanniker Smith
I’ve heard atheist here on FR say that they can do good, without believing in God.
I don’t see why not.
76 posted on 5/24/2013 6:03:48 AM by stuartcr


154 posted on 05/24/2013 2:08:08 PM PDT by ansel12
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To: Salamander

“So...are you saying those who died before He came are doomed or are you supporting the ‘everybody who is “good” eventually makes it to Heaven’ theory?”


One does not need to go into “spirit prison” to preach to the dead to save them. After all, the antediluvians could have repented and believed with Noah on the one true God. Just like any Gentile could have believed in the God of Abraham, and of Moses, and of Jacob, for “salvation is of the Jews” (John 4:22). Outside of the religion of Moses, up until the time of Christ, there was no salvation. None of the Pagans or atheists were ever justified in believing in their idols.

Rom 1:20-21 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

And today, there is no salvation outside of Christ, and those who do not believe are still “without excuse.”


155 posted on 05/24/2013 2:16:08 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Actually, ‘perfect’ in Matt 5:48 is the Greek telios. It is better translated ‘Complete in God’ which is a mystical or spiritual state. Has nothing to do with ‘works’.


156 posted on 05/24/2013 2:19:16 PM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

yep... Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


157 posted on 05/24/2013 2:21:20 PM PDT by kjam22 (my newest music video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7gNI9bWO3s)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Good post.

Thanks.


158 posted on 05/24/2013 2:22:27 PM PDT by Salamander (The only things that last forever are memories and sorrow.)
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To: DaveMSmith

Did he really say this?

Amazing if he did...whew


159 posted on 05/24/2013 2:25:25 PM PDT by wardaddy (wanna know how my kin felt during Reconstruction in Mississippi, you fixin to find out firsthand)
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To: Jemian

Exactly if he said this


160 posted on 05/24/2013 2:26:16 PM PDT by wardaddy (wanna know how my kin felt during Reconstruction in Mississippi, you fixin to find out firsthand)
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To: DaveMSmith
Tough decision: who to trust the Pope or the anonymous Internet theologian viewers of the Crouch couple, and other snake handlers.


161 posted on 05/24/2013 2:29:01 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: Salvation; All

First let’s go over the “works” that James expects to proceed from faith.

Jas_2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

James sums up the entire law into just one principle. This same idea is repeated in other places:

Rom_13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

No complicated rituals are being commanded here, nor obedience to one particular church authority. It is very simply, after believing in Jesus Christ, love your neighbor as yourself. Not too complicated. And notice what this emphasizes! Rituals or other works that aren’t aimed at serving others are simply not found in this saying at all. The law is summed up, entirely, in your conduct with others, not your personal rituals. So even if your contention is correct (and it’s not) that one must perform works to be saved, we are not bound to any heavy yoke of vain things which do not edify.

Speaking of the Old Testament rituals, Paul asserts that they had no effect on the person’s conscience. They could not make a man “perfect”:

Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

Christ’s teachings were never to focus on rituals of these kind, which the RCC embraces as the center of their worship, but always to better ourselves morally, to be “born again” in a spiritual sense, an invisible reality (already complete) which is visibly seen in our service to others.

Now, does James believe it is possible to keep the law at all? He goes on to say:

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

To commit even one sin, no matter how “minor” it seems to you (recall that Jesus defines even THINKING of the sin, imagining it in your mind and committing it there, is to become a transgressor), is to put you under the penalty of the entire law, which is death. It is with this in mind that James begins his discourse, wherein he speaks to another man saying “shew me thy faith by thy works”:

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

He goes on to compare the difference between simple belief, which even the devils believe, and actual saving faith, which is a living faith that produces good fruit.

Now we know from what James says earlier, that even one bad fruit ruins your whole tree in the sight of the law, at least if we understand it as you do. (That is, of a world wherein we are trying to be good enough to get to heaven.) He cannot mean that any number of works can make one man superior to another, or more likely to get to heaven than another, but rather that it is the kind of faith which comes from a new born Christian. It is a faith that can be seen by another man that is the context, but God sees the heart. This salvation must be seen in the heart, and even a man who does works and yet does not believe has no life in him. The story does not end at justification when one believes, but rather what follows is a continual sanctification. If one shows no evidence of regeneration, likely their faith is only in vain.

Now, both Faith and Works at this point must bow, utterly, to the grace of God. Neither can be attributed to the man who wills or runs, but to God alone who foreknows you and predestinates you to salvation.

Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

1Co_12:3 ... no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

It is the first order of business for the Christian to understand that he did not come to Christ by his own free will. On the contrary, his “will,” prior to salvation, is utterly bent on doing evil.

Rom 3:10-12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Therefore, their choice, on every occasion, is to choose sin. They are simply incapable of doing good. They are the slaves to sin. Or as Augustine says “Without the Spirit man’s will is not free, since it has been laid under by shackling and conquering desires.” - Augustine, Letters cxlv 2 (MPL 33. 593; tr FC 20. 163f.)

Therefore, it is necessary that God must reveal Himself to the man.

Christ declares that we have not “chosen” to be believers, but rather that He has chosen us. There is no willing on his own in regards to salvation, it is only an illusion. Neither does this allow for any sort of cooperation (synergism) with God’s grace, since that involves a “choice” to remain in Christ. This is a drawing that is either given, or not given:

Joh 6:42-44 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? (43) Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. (44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:64-65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Notice here that the Jews who did not believe are not defined as being “drawn” and then rejecting Christ, but rather that they are not drawn at all. This happens frequently in Christ’s dealing with them. Even Peter is blessed for calling Jesus the Christ, not because of his own merits (which the RCC always seem to suggest), but because it was revealed by the Father:

Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Without being ordained to eternal life, a person simply cannot come to faith.

Act_13:48 ... and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Now, notice the other part of my original passage. Christ chooses us and “ordains” us (appoints us) that we should “produce fruit,” and furthermore, that this fruit “should abide.” So not only is our faith given to us as a free gift, but so also are works. For no man can produce a fruit that eternally abides except if God does it. No man produces fruit of his flesh, but rather it is “ordained” before the foundation of the world that we should produce fruits. Augustine makes the same observation in his refutation of the Pelagians and Semi-Pelagians:

“But these brethren of ours, about whom and on whose behalf we are now discoursing, say, perhaps, that the Pelagians are refuted by this apostolical testimony in which it is said that we are chosen in Christ and predestinated before the foundation of the world, in order that we should be holy and immaculate in His sight in love. For they think that “having received God’s commands we are of ourselves by the choice of our free will made holy and immaculate in His sight in love; and since God foresaw that this would be the case,” they say, “He therefore chose and predestinated us in Christ before the foundation of the world.” Although the apostle says that it was not because He foreknew that we should be such, but in order that we might be such by the same election of His grace, by which He showed us favour in His beloved Son. When, therefore, He predestinated us, He foreknew His own work by which He makes us holy and immaculate. (Augustine, A Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints, Chapt. 38.)

Now, the presence of commands to be “perfect” or to “abide” do not imply a moral ability of the hearer to do them. After all, we are a fallen race, no longer innocent. Christ commands us to “be holy as my Father in heaven is Holy.” That’s an incredible request! Yet, if Christ thought that we could do it, then every man would be damned, even Paul:

Rom 7:18-24 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. (20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. (22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: (23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. (24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Do we fall in an out of abiding in Christ’s commandments every time we fail to meet this perfection? And perfection does not just imply not sinning, but even our good works must be perfect and without flaws “as my Father in heaven.”

Now the scripture does say to persevere and work out our salvation, but then it says a sentence after that it is God who works in us both to will and to do:

Php 2:12-13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Isa_26:12 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.

So, if all our works are wrought by God, how can a man be justified by works that belong to someone else? With the new heart given to us by God, we produce fruit. But this heart is the gift of God, and not of ourselves.

This is true in Romans 8 as well, where the whole golden line of salvation is placed before us:

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Notice it does not say that those whom God called, justified themselves in cooperation with God, and glorified themselves as the reward of God. It is God who calls, justifies, and glorifies, not according to the man “who works, but of Him that calleth.”

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom_9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Therefore salvation is wrought by God alone, and all our works are the results of His sovereign decision to save us, and not of ourselves.

Now one last matter, it is important to note that no one is chosen by Christ because He foresaw any glint of goodness in us, lest any man should boast. He chose us, according to His own will and purpose, DESPITE our works, and not because of them:

2Ti_1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Rom 9:11-16 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) (12) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. (13) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (14) What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. (15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. (16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Therefore, we conclude that salvation is entirely up to God, and not on Him who “runneth” or “willeth,” but on God who chooses to pluck us out of the fire according to His own mercy. Faith and works, therefore, must bow to God’s will.


162 posted on 05/24/2013 2:31:06 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: DaveMSmith

“Actually, ‘perfect’ in Matt 5:48 is the Greek telios. It is better translated ‘Complete in God’”


Is that Swedenborgian Greek? The word is complete, perfect, pure, like a complete machine, wihout the “in God,” as if the Father is complete by being part of God (the word is used twice).


163 posted on 05/24/2013 2:36:09 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
See PRACTICAL LESSONS IN CHRISTIAN MYSTICISM and search telios.

Has nothing to do with Swedenborg.

164 posted on 05/24/2013 2:41:39 PM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: Salamander
They were the people who’d died before He came.

The ones 'in prison' are the Fallen Ones... The Fallen Angels or Watchers who 'left their first estate' (gen 6), to lay with the daughters of men. And I don't think it was preaching - It was a declaration.

The good who died before the coming of Messiah were in a place of comfort called 'The Bosom of Abraham' which is now empty - These souls were presented to the Father by Yeshua upon the Resurrection as the 'First Fruits' offering that wonderful Sunday morning.

165 posted on 05/24/2013 2:42:18 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: DaveMSmith

“See PRACTICAL LESSONS IN CHRISTIAN MYSTICISM and search telios.
Has nothing to do with Swedenborg.”


I’ll stick to the scripture, thanks.


166 posted on 05/24/2013 2:42:29 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
That is, your false interpretation of Scripture.

Welcome to Free Republic, BTW

167 posted on 05/24/2013 2:47:44 PM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: DaveMSmith

“That is, your false interpretation of Scripture.
Welcome to Free Republic, BTW”


Coming from the Swedenborg Cult, I’m not offended at all. Thanks for the welcome.


168 posted on 05/24/2013 2:49:10 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: DaveMSmith

Did Pope Francis Say That Atheists Can Get to Heaven by Good Works?

Friday, May 24, 2013 1:55 PM

Color me annoyed.

The press has been going nuts about remarks concerning atheists that Pope Francis made at one of his daily homilies.

As usual, the press is hyping the remarks as if they are earthshaking, unprecedented, and in contrast to mean ol' Pope Emeritus Benedict.

I know this will come as a shock, but . . . they're getting the story wrong.

Here's the story . . .

 

Daily Homilies

Let's start with the context in which Pope Francis made the remarks: One of his homilies at daily Mass, celebrated in St. Martha's House (where he lives).

Pope Francis is in the habit of saying daily Mass for the people at St. Martha's House and invited guests, and when he does so he gives an off-the-cuff homily (rather than reading from a prepared text).

This is actually something new.

John Paul II and Benedict XVI did not do this. They did not celebrate daily Mass as publicly as Pope Francis, and they did not have daily homilies published in this way. Instead, they occasionally delivered prepared homilies at public Masses on special occasions, and only these were published. As a result, if you look at the Vatican web site, there are surprisingly few homilies listed in their sections!

As a result, the Vatican web people aren't scaled up for this volume of homilies, and--MADDENINGLY--you can't find complete texts of Pope Francis's daily ones on the site.

They, apparently, aren't running these homilies through "the usual process," which involves transcribing what the pope says in off-the-cuff remarks, showing him the transcript so that he can revise it if needed, and then translating and publishing them.

As a result, we're not getting complete transcripts of these homilies, only partial ones, such as those carried by Vatican Radio.

And that, right there, is a problem. It drives me nuts, because these homilies contain interesting information, but I hesitate to comment on anything for which I don't have a complete text.

As they say, a text without a context is a pretext. Without seeing the full text, we run the risk of misunderstanding.

 

The Homily in Question

On Wednesday, Pope Francis gave a homily based on the Gospel reading of the day (Mark 9:38-40), in which the disciples have told a man to stop casting out demons in Jesus' name because he doesn't follow along with them.

Then, according to Vatican Radio's maddeningly incomplete and poorly edited transcript of the homily:

The disciples, Pope Francis explains, “were a little intolerant,” closed off by the idea of ​​possessing the truth, convinced that “those who do not have the truth, cannot do good.”

“This was wrong . . . Jesus broadens the horizon.” Pope Francis said, “The root of this possibility of doing good – that we all have – is in creation.”

Pope Francis first applies this principle to non-Catholics in general, engaging in dialogue with an imaginary interlocutor:

"‘But, Father, this [person] is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can. He must. Not can: must! Because he has this commandment within him. . . .

“Instead,” the Pope continued, “the Lord has created us in His image and likeness, and has given us this commandment in the depths of our heart: do good and do not do evil”:

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone!

So far so good: Christ redeemed all of us, making it possible for every human to be saved.

 

What About Atheists?

Now we get to the subject of atheists, as the imaginary interlocutor asks:

"‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good."

Here is where "the usual process" might be helpful in clarifying the pope's thought. Everyone, when speaking off-the-cuff, encounters occasions where things could be further clarified, and this may be one of them.

We can be called children of God in several senses. One of them is merely be being created as rational beings made in God's image. Another is by becoming Christian. Another sense (used in the Old Testament) is connected with righteous behavior. And there can be other senses as well.

Here Pope Francis may be envisioning a sense in which we can be called children of God because Christ redeemed us, even apart from embracing that redemption by becoming Christian.

This, however, was not what caught the press's eye.

Pope Francis continued:

"And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good."

Nothing particularly controversial here.

But then comes this, as the imaginary interlocutor says:

"‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

 

Where Is "There"?

The press latched onto this, taking the phrase "we will meet one another there" as a reference to heaven.

They then inferred that the pope was saying that if atheists merely "do good" then they will go to heaven.

This, in turn, alarmed some in the Protestant community, who thought that the pope was saying that atheists can get to heaven by "good works."

We can deal with the possibility of salvation for atheists in another post, but first we need to ask a question . . .

 

Was Pope Francis Even Talking About Heaven?

If so, you wouldn't know it from the transcript of what he said.

Let's back up a bit. Remember, Pope Francis was just talking about the duty to do good:

"And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace."

So if everyone does good, we have a path toward peace. That's the goal he's discussing.

"If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good.

Note the parallelism between the phrases. Pope Francis is talking about a path "toward peace" and wants us to "meet there" by doing our part and doing good so that we build "that culture of encounter" and "meet one another doing good."

He's not talking about heaven at all.

He's talking about earth.

It's in that context that he has the imaginary interlocutor say:

‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’

And he replies:

"But do good: we will meet one another there.”

What he's saying is that even atheists need to do good on earth to build their part of the culture of encounter that promotes peace and allows people to "meet together" in harmony.

At least that's what appears from a careful reading of the text.

Another translation, found in The Guardian (of all places), better conveys the idea:

"Even them, everyone," the pope answered, according to Vatican Radio. "We all have the duty to do good," he said.

"Just do good, and we'll find a meeting point," the pope said in a hypothetical reply to the hypothetical comment: "But I don't believe. I'm an atheist."

 

Text Without Context

Remember that saying I mentioned earlier, that a text without a context is a pretext for misunderstanding?

This is why.

This is exactly why.

And it is why I am so annoyed that we aren't getting the full text of Pope Francis's daily homilies.

Of course, even with the context we had at hand, which clearly suggests that Pope Francis wasn't talking about meeting atheists in heaven but meeting with them in fraternity and peace here on earth, that didn't stop the press from getting it wrong.

 

169 posted on 05/24/2013 3:11:44 PM PDT by Bratch
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To: Bratch
Thanks for EWTN's take.

Of course, even with the context we had at hand, which clearly suggests that Pope Francis wasn't talking about meeting atheists in heaven but meeting with them in fraternity and peace here on earth, that didn't stop the press from getting it wrong.

Well, at this Pope's age, he certainly will not see a 'fraternity and peace here on earth' anytime soon. I read the homily - 'there' could indeed be understood as the spiritual world which heaven and hell are a part. That's why I posted this - instruction and learning do not end with the death of the body. We all continue to learn new truths to eternity. Key is to begin rejecting evil here on earth so that we can receive genuine truth. Trust God, Clean house and Help others.

This guy's email is: jimmy@secretinfoclub.com - is that a Catholic site?

170 posted on 05/24/2013 3:33:11 PM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: DaveMSmith
This article is from a blog he writes for the National Catholic Register.

About Jimmy Akin

Jimmy Akin
Jimmy was born in Texas, grew up nominally Protestant, but at age 20 experienced a profound conversion to Christ. Planning on becoming a Protestant pastor or seminary professor, he started an intensive study of the Bible. But the more he immersed himself in Scripture the more he found to support the Catholic faith. Eventually, he was compelled in conscience to enter the Catholic Church, which he did in 1992. His conversion story, "A Triumph and a Tragedy," is published in Surprised by Truth. Besides being an author, Jimmy is a Senior Apologist at Catholic Answers, a contributing editor to This Rock magazine, and a weekly guest on "Catholic Answers Live."


171 posted on 05/24/2013 3:54:40 PM PDT by Bratch
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To: cuban leaf
The thing about works is this: Works do not save, but they are proof of salvation of a BELIEVER. If the person is not a believer, the works are in vain, at least regarding salvation. And the reason is pretty simple: Even the best man on the planet falls short of God’s glory. Works do not save.

VERY WELL SAID.

172 posted on 05/24/2013 4:01:14 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Bratch; All
Thanks....

More on this: Is Pope Francis is a heretic? No, but he does raise questions [RNS]

173 posted on 05/24/2013 4:08:48 PM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

No, for ever and ever is what it means.


This is what it means:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G165&t=KJV

To interpret it to mean that non-believers spend a never ending time in conscious torment contradicts way too much scripture to the contrary. It is a narrow interpretation of revelation 20.


174 posted on 05/24/2013 4:09:10 PM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: DaveMSmith

It does seem, doesn’t it, that Francis has lightened up!


175 posted on 05/24/2013 4:11:27 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: cuban leaf

“This is what it means:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G165&t=KJV";


“1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity”

You propose option two, but it is a combination of aions and, therefore, “for ever and ever.” Not “for a time.”

“To interpret it to mean that non-believers spend a never ending time in conscious torment contradicts way too much scripture to the contrary.”


There’s no scripture to the contrary.

Mat_25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mar 9:43-48 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (44) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (45) And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (46) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (47) And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: (48) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


176 posted on 05/24/2013 4:16:10 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: piusv
"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

Jesus paid the penalty for all sin but redemption is not automatically granted. Only those who receive Him are children of God.

John 1:12-13 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

177 posted on 05/24/2013 4:18:01 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: mitch5501
For an atheist to do the work of God he must first cease to be an atheist.

Excellent!

178 posted on 05/24/2013 4:19:58 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: stuartcr; mitch5501
What if the atheist doesn’t know he is doing the work of God?

An atheist doing good works is just an atheist doing good works.

All it shows is that sometimes even atheists can do something good once in a while in spite of themselves.

179 posted on 05/24/2013 4:21:27 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Revolting cat!

Indeed. He seems to have Rule #62 down pat. Wonder if he is one of us? Sure acts like it.


180 posted on 05/24/2013 4:26:34 PM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: cuban leaf
And I understand the difference between “life” and “death”My old ‘63 rambler is not just dead. It is “eternally” dead. It ain’t comin’ back.

But the eternal torment of the devil is not death, and the everlasting punishment the lost go into as those who are cast into the same place is not simply annihilation, but in contradistinction to the eternal experience of the elect, it is torment. Horrifying but just and real, which the Scriptures presented it as.

181 posted on 05/24/2013 4:27:03 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: F15Eagle

!:)


182 posted on 05/24/2013 4:27:54 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Jemian
No. It means the Pope is in error.

Isn't he infallible. :-)

183 posted on 05/24/2013 4:38:15 PM PDT by plain talk
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To: metmom

Not sure why that was posted to me, but I happen to agree with you. The Pope seems to be saying something contrary to Catholic teaching. Catholic teaching has always held that we are made children of God through Baptism (and obviously atheists have not been baptized). I honestly don’t know what to think about this homily. I certainly have questions, but not about the Catholic Faith.


184 posted on 05/24/2013 4:42:16 PM PDT by piusv
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To: plain talk

And round and round we go......


185 posted on 05/24/2013 4:42:43 PM PDT by piusv
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To: ansel12

See #129. Aren’t you getting a little carried away? I’m flattered that you keep such close track of my comments, but this is a little wired.


186 posted on 05/24/2013 4:54:17 PM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: piusv

I agree. I know I have sent in suggestions that the forum limit the number of characters in a single post but they don’t want to do it. So we have to endure spam posted by some. I skip over the spam posts. Always.


187 posted on 05/24/2013 5:00:17 PM PDT by plain talk
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To: metmom

OMG!


188 posted on 05/24/2013 5:04:02 PM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: stuartcr

You posted post 76 in defense of atheism and I responded to you, try to lay off the little act and song and dance routine.

To: Tanniker Smith
I’ve heard atheist here on FR say that they can do good, without believing in God.
I don’t see why not.
76 posted on 5/24/2013 6:03:48 AM by stuartcr

The question isn’t about a mild mannered-individual growing up in a culture shaped by religion. Can an atheist society thrive for generations, has it ever?

If America was suddenly sprayed with a chemical that removed all belief in God, and made everyone 100% purely free of any concept of God and a soul and an after life, and removed all residue and traces of any connection with that past, I don’t think that the result would be positive.


189 posted on 05/24/2013 5:05:43 PM PDT by ansel12
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To: plain talk
So we have to endure spam posted by some. I skip over the spam posts.

I saw someone posting entire tomes into a prayer thread once so out of curiosity I copied one of the posts into a Word document. 24,000 words. Not the whole thread mind you; one post. Just ridiculous. Since 99.9% of posts like that will never, ever be read a courteous poster would just put a link. People like that make reading FR on the phone almost impossible at times.

190 posted on 05/24/2013 5:10:04 PM PDT by Pan_Yan (I believe in God. All else is dubious.)
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To: ansel12

What would you like to hear? I have no idea if there has been a purely atheist society, so how could I know if one can survive for generations?

Tell me of one and I will google and tell you how long it lasted.

Ok, after all that stuff happens, you don’t think it would be positive.

???


191 posted on 05/24/2013 5:16:08 PM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: plain talk

No, he isn’t.

In fact, iirc, the Roman Catholic church doesn’t claim the Pope is infallible every time he speaks. My understanding is that he is only infallible if he speaks in a particular way on particular matters. Not being Roman Catholic, I don’t pay too much attention to the ins-and-outs of that belief.

The Bible is clear. There is no person who is good ENOUGH to earn their way into heaven. All our [own] righteousness is as filthy rags. We ALL need a savior and that is found in Christ Jesus. There is but one mediator between men and God, the man Christ Jesus.

If the Pope said anything else, and there is now evidence that the media got yet another thing wrong, the Pope is in error.


192 posted on 05/24/2013 5:17:06 PM PDT by Jemian
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To: Jemian

I know. I know. I was just making a joke. No man is infallible ... including the Pope. He is the head manager of the Catholic Church and that’s about it.


193 posted on 05/24/2013 5:20:35 PM PDT by plain talk
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To: stuartcr

LOL, still defending atheism.

All this time and you still want to stick with your pro-atheist statement and leave it at that.

I’m cool with that, but you don’t seem to be.


194 posted on 05/24/2013 5:21:00 PM PDT by ansel12
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To: ansel12

See 129...and read it


195 posted on 05/24/2013 5:21:59 PM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: stuartcr; mitch5501
OMG!

That's a more meaningless post than the one I responded to.

196 posted on 05/24/2013 5:29:31 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: stuartcr

I did read it, and I responded, and you pretended to never understand post 110.

You jumped on the thread to mock Christians and defend atheism in your usual girlish, passive-aggressive manner that comes off as childish and here you are.

Your lame attempt to defend atheism was weak.


197 posted on 05/24/2013 5:32:58 PM PDT by ansel12
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To: metmom

I know


198 posted on 05/24/2013 5:34:04 PM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: stuartcr; ansel12
"LOL, still defending atheism."

Stuartcr, you are in pretty good company:

"For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all." - Romans 2: 13-16

199 posted on 05/24/2013 5:35:09 PM PDT by Natural Law (Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, dona nobis pacem.)
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To: ansel12

If you’re cool with, why keep telling me?

If you think I’m mocking Christians and defending atheists, like I said earlier, ok...it really doesn’t matter.


200 posted on 05/24/2013 5:37:28 PM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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