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Pope Francis says atheists can do good and go to heaven too!
Catholic Online ^ | 5/24/2013 | Catholic Online

Posted on 05/24/2013 2:25:17 AM PDT by DaveMSmith

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To: cuban leaf
Here is a good rundown on Jesus’ teachings regarding hell.

I gave that site a read through, and I noticed several omissions and mistakes. The author is giving his view of Jesus' teachings regarding hell, but I do not think he is correct. One such instance was his stating that the Old Testament never mentions a place of unending torment. he stated:

I merely remarked that prominent Old Testament characters like David and Abraham never heard the term or its equivalent. They were never threatened with eternal torment in hell or heard anything like our popular concept now.

I disagree. Read Psalm 73 when you get a chance. It is David's lament that the wicked seem to get away with doing wrong, they want for nothing, they never seem to bear the consequences of their wrongdoing. Yet in Psalm 73:11-19, the writer says:

    They say, “How would God know? Does the Most High know anything?”

    This is what the wicked are like— always free of care, they go on amassing wealth.

    Surely in vain I have kept my heart pure and have washed my hands in innocence. All day long I have been afflicted, and every morning brings new punishments. If I had spoken out like that, I would have betrayed your children.

    When I tried to understand all this, it troubled me deeply till I entered the sanctuary of God; then I understood their final destiny.

    Surely you place them on slippery ground; you cast them down to ruin. How suddenly are they destroyed, completely swept away by terrors!

The author not only ignores this Psalm by insisting nobody ever heard of eternal punishment, but he also he also fails to address the Lazarus and the rich man story from Jesus like you have failed to do.

I get it that the idea of such a place is frightening and seems to be at odds with our understanding of a loving God, but to teach that no such place exists or that the lost only have to worry about being annihilated, never to know any permanent suffering or consciousness of it, goes against the Scriptures revealed by God to holy men who were tasked with writing down what the Holy Spirit speaks to them. Just as Heaven is a real place, so is hell, and the only reason why souls go to hell is because they are paying for their own sins instead of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life through Jesus Christ. Jesus died for our sins and arose from the dead so that we can know with certainty he is Almighty God incarnate and that satisfaction for our sins was paid in full.

301 posted on 05/28/2013 4:42:25 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Zeta Beam
It is supposed to be a warning to refrain from usurping the judgment role reserved to God.

Do you think there is a difference between calling your brother a "fool" just because you don't like him and saying someone who says "there is no God" is a fool?

302 posted on 05/28/2013 4:47:36 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Well, you sure puttered out quickly. You go believe Jeremy and his “ceaseless torment that’s not forever” theology, and I’ll stick to the meaning of words and context.


Did you come here for the full half hour? ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y


303 posted on 05/28/2013 5:48:18 PM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: boatbums

You did not give your explanation for what Jesus’ purpose of the story of Lazarus and rich lost man in two different locations after their deaths.


Sorry. Here is a very good rundown: http://www.jeremyandchristine.com/articles/lazarus.html


304 posted on 05/28/2013 5:56:54 PM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: boatbums

You also didn’t tell me how your theology of hell would convince an atheist to seek God if the worst thing that could happen to him at death is his ceasing to exist in any conscious way.


I didn’t because I don’t think a person brought to God out of fear of hell vs the love of God is really saved. That doctrine sounds more Muslim or Catholic.


305 posted on 05/28/2013 5:58:23 PM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: boatbums

As for the difference between the 144,000 and the uncountable “multitude” in heaven at the end of the Tribulation, there is no contradiction.


You are right. You stated my exact point. The contradiction is that revelation mentions what you call “the uncounted multitude”, yet other parts of the bible suggest “few are chosen”. I’m not saying it IS a contradiction. I’m saying it sounds like one. It is because our interpretation is flawed in some way not yet revealed to us.


306 posted on 05/28/2013 6:00:54 PM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: boatbums

Just curious, are you a Jehovah’s Witness? Some of your doctrine sounds an awful lot like the JW doctrines.


Far from it. In my opinion, they are even more in error than Mormons. Both have taken the gospel, lifted it slightly, removed the foundation (Christ) and replaced it with a thin layer of Styrofoam.


307 posted on 05/28/2013 6:02:10 PM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: boatbums

When I tried to understand all this, it troubled me deeply till I entered the sanctuary of God; then I understood their final destiny.

Surely you place them on slippery ground; you cast them down to ruin. How suddenly are they destroyed, completely swept away by terrors!


This clearly discusses complete annihilation.


308 posted on 05/28/2013 6:05:04 PM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: boatbums

Just as Heaven is a real place, so is hell,


I’m not so sure about that. Some interesting links:

https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=4kq&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&biw=1680&bih=890&q=%22WHY+HELL+IS+VANISHING+FROM+CHURCHES+AND+THE+BIBLE%22&oq=%22WHY+HELL+IS+VANISHING+FROM+CHURCHES+AND+THE+BIBLE%22&gs_l=serp.3...11841.14468.0.14650.2.2.0.0.0.0.1067.1067.7-1.1.0...0.0...1c.1.14.serp.MtuFRffgP0o

To me, the evidence is pretty overwhelming.

I confess that I started getting into this when I began reading the greek and hebrew lexicons - both the King James and NIV sources.

The first “revelation” was the use of the word “mansions” inthe KJV. It is baloney. Translating the greek to “mansions” is like translating the word for “car” to “limousine”. I’ve found many others.

It’s amazing how we trust the translations of others. Most of the time it’s benign because it’s hard to argue meaning. But this hell thing looks really like a conspiracy to fill church pews with scared people. Just taking it at face value is fine, but if it causes you to believe that our “loving” God’s version of justice is sending a person to eternal torment for a single, slight transgression is absurd. He presents Himself to us in a way we can understand from a human perspective. One reason He came in the flesh is to communicate that He knows intimately what temptations we have to deal with. It also allows us to understand the importance of His forgiveness and the value of His sacrifice.

Proverbs says, twice, that there is a way that seems right to man, but it’s end is death. I believe that. And it is “death”, not eternal torment. It is plain. It was meant to be.


309 posted on 05/28/2013 6:13:39 PM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: cuban leaf
I don't think the argument over the translations of certain words is a sufficient enough reason for rejecting what has been believed and taught in the Christian faith from the start. Here is a link you might find helpful: An Examination of Annihilationism

Just as Scripture does not support universal salvation, it also doesn't support annihilationism. You have the freedom to believe what you want on this doctrine, but you cannot prove unquestionably that you are correct. The idea of an eternal punishment IS something Jesus made clear such as in Luke 12:4,5 "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell." Fear is a healthy emotion when it is a legitimate and Biblically sound reaction. Jesus is not playing games or just trying to scare people with his words.

310 posted on 05/28/2013 10:14:22 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

That was a painful read. The author is not a very good communicator. He also interspersed the article with so much opinion and conclusion, rather than evidence, that it was hard to get through the chaff to get to the wheat.

I’ll respond this way:

When I left the Pre-trib believe for Mid-trib, my bible teacher at my church (we are still friends and he is a great teacher) gave me a white paper he had written regarding the rapture. His theme was completely in support of pre-trib. I was excited to read it and be convinced. After all, I had only been a Christian a couple of years (early 80’s) and who wouldn’t want to believe that just before the SHTF we would all be whisked away.

But his arguments went flat. In fact, the more I read, the more convinced I was that my mid trib (really post-trib, pre-wrath) belief increased and I lost ALL respect for the pre-trib belief.

I had the same experience with your article. It was a bit like reading the articles supporting Mary being ever-virgin. It assumes the reader has only skimmed the evidence for the opposite viewpoint.

The article you linked convinced me MORE that the lost are not eternal and will simply end at their “second death”. Have you read any of my links?


311 posted on 05/29/2013 4:57:45 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: boatbums

Jesus made clear such as in Luke 12:4,5 “I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell.”


Two things: First, I think a clear definition of what hell actually IS is in order. Second, it is PART OF the proof text I used and your link used:
Matt. 10:28//Luke 12:4-5
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell.

Notice He can destroy BOTH soul AND body? That is annihilation. You are fixated on WHERE it happens and ignoring WHAT happens. We are discussing the final fate of the non-believer, not where it happens.

I see that scripture as similar to saying a cow is slaughtered in a slaughterhouse, where the slaughterhouse is hell. However, I don’t see hell the way you do. In fact, Revelation says hell itself will be destroyed.

The meaning of “hell” is a study that must be completed before you can use it to mean anything in this argument. The NIV uses it quite a bit, but the King James uses it more. For example, Revelation 20:14 - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Hell itself is destroyed in the lake of fire, according to the KJV. But the NIV calls it hades. And a study of the origin of the terms is important.

I think one reason so many people are leaving the false theology of eternal suffering is that the internet, much like the printing press did so many centuries ago, enables a deeper search and study of the bible.

One could argue the printing press and it’s bringing the bible to the common man enabled believers to flee the shackles of the catholic faith. And now the internet allows us to deeply study His word and compare arguments made by various clergy and lay people. It is destroying long held beliefs from Darwinism to various doctrines of error. Just as our salvation is a very personal thing, so now our interpretation of scripture is likewise personal. That is as it should be. We all die alone and are alone responsible for our relationship with Him.

Google search things like “what is hell” and read BOTH sides. The truth percolates to the top if you ask God for wisdom before your search.


312 posted on 05/29/2013 5:12:15 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: boatbums

I don’t think the argument over the translations of certain words is a sufficient enough reason for rejecting what has been believed and taught in the Christian faith from the start.


I need to address this point. I read an article once that discussed the issue of “doesn’t something HAVE TO BE TRUE if it has been taught in the church a long time?” I can’t remember the link to the article but it destroyed the concept.

One of my own examples is that the Catholic church has taught for a VERY long time that Mary never had sex. There is nothing in the bible to support such a ludicrous viewpoint, yet a LOT of people believe it. This is partly because they take the work of extra-biblical church fathers as the word of God. This is a travesty. It is what the Mormons do with their leaders, who said men live on the sun and moon.

The bible is the word of God. And anything SIGNIFICANT that is mentioned in only one place must really be scrutinized as to its real meaning. The bible riminds me of a modern airliner. They have triple redundancy in their important systems. I’ve been listening to the OT now on my 2.5 hour commute every day and I am amazed how often it reapeats itself in the space of a few chapters. It drives it’s point home over and over again.

That’s the point of the instructions for using the “Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch” In Monty Python’s Holy Grail. It is actually making fun of how the bible is rife with double or quadruple redundancy discussing key doctrines.

And the more I study using modern search tools and lexicons, the more I am convinced that John 3:16 has it exactly right. One receives “eternal life” and the other “perishes”. One is eternal and the other ends.


313 posted on 05/29/2013 5:21:11 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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