Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Constantine Has Been Beaten to Death (by anti-catholics)
Catholic Answers ^ | May 20, 2013 | Jon Sorensen

Posted on 05/25/2013 4:22:36 AM PDT by NYer

I’m sure you’ve heard the phrase “beating a dead horse.” It refers to something that has been said or done so many times that it has outlived its usefulness. This is especially true of arguments that are not only old but also untrue.

Like the proverbial horse, the Roman emperor Constantine has been beaten to death by anti-Catholics.

I make it a point to check all of the comments posted on our YouTube and Facebook pages at least twice a day. As sure as fish live in water, I have come to expect at least one message a day from a Christian Fundamentalist about how the Catholic Church was founded by Emperor Constantine sometime in the fourth century.

It’s almost unfathomable to me that in this day and age Fundamentalists still have not learned to verify the validity of their anti-Catholic arguments. But then again, with so many websites making claims like “Constantine founded the Catholic Church” living on in cyberspace, it’s no wonder some folks still cling to what blogger Mark Shea refers to as “pseudo knowledge.”

It would be nice if this falsity were confined to Fundamentalist circles, but sadly it is not. As atheist podcast host and blogger David Smalley explains on his website:

The Bible was 'canonized' around 325 C.E. (about 275+ years after Jesus' death) with Constantine in charge. . . . At the time Constantine was overseeing the canonization or 'building' of the Bible, if he didn't agree with the text, it was thrown out. There are tons of 'scriptures' that did not make it in. A quick research on the Council of Nicaea will prove this.

There’s no doubt that Constantine was favorable to Christianity. Still, many people mistakenly believe that he not only favored it but that he made it the state religion. He did not. He signed the Edict of Milan, which made it legal to practice Christianity and ordered that the Christians’ confiscated property be returned to them.

Another mistaken notion is that Constantine exercised complete control over the First Council of Nicaea in 325. The primary reason for the council was due to the growing Arian heresy. Jimmy Akin summarizes Arianism this way:

[Arianism was] founded by Arius, a priest of Alexandria, Egypt, in the early 300s. Arius held that originally the Son of God did not exist. There was a time in which there was a single divine Person who became the Father when he created the Son out of nothing. The Son was the first of all created beings and thus separate from the Father in beginning. The heresy was condemned at the first ecumenical council—Nicaea I in 325—but the controversy intensified and lasted much longer (The Fathers Know Best, p. 85).

Constantine did not fully understand why Arianism was so controversial, and he even endorsed many of Arius’s ideas. Historian Dr. James Hitchcock explains:

[W]hen Constantine also endorsed Arius’s ideas, there was an uproar that led the emperor in 325 to call the Council of Nicaea (Asia Minor) to settle the issue. After an intense struggle, the Council condemned Arius, declaring the Son to be “consubstantial” with the Father, that is, sharing the same substance (History of the Catholic Church, p. 83).

If Constantine held as much sway over the Council as many claim, then it is a peculiar thing that the Christology he favored was the big loser.

The next anti-Catholic claim is summarized in Mr. Smalley’s quote above: It is the idea that Constantine decided which books belonged in the Bible and that the ones he did not favor were left out.

The Council Fathers discussed many things besides Arianism, including the proper dating of Easter, the validity of baptisms administered by heretics, and more. One issue they did not discuss, however, is which books belonged in the Bible. They drafted a list of canons (ecclesiastical laws) that you can read for yourself here.

Mr. Smalley’s assertion that “quick research on the Council of Nicaea” will prove his claim in fact proves otherwise; unless, of course, you are getting your information from anti-Catholic websites that don’t provide any primary sources to back them up.

Finally, there is the claim that Constantine introduced pagan elements into what was “pure” Christianity up to that point. Many Fundamentalists will claim that doctrines like transubstantiation, the communion of saints, or the sacrifice of the Mass were pagan ideas. But all of these teachings and more can be traced back to the time of the Apostles through the writings of the early Christians.

To counter this claim, I highly recommend Jimmy Akin’s book, The Fathers Know Best: Your Essential Guide to the Teachings of the Early Christians, available from Catholic Answers. I also recommend getting a copy of the May-June 2013 issue of Catholic Answers Magazine, in which I tackle several of the supposed pagan parallels to Catholic practices.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History
KEYWORDS: catholic; constantine; nicea
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-200 ... 251-256 next last

1 posted on 05/25/2013 4:22:36 AM PDT by NYer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 05/25/2013 4:23:54 AM PDT by NYer ( "Run from places of sin as from the plague."--St John Climacus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer

Thanks


3 posted on 05/25/2013 4:38:53 AM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer
I make it a point to check all of the comments posted on our YouTube and Facebook pages at least twice a day.

If he did that here at FR he'd find the same kind of nonsense.

4 posted on 05/25/2013 4:50:13 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro can't pass E-verify)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: A.A. Cunningham

Yes, it’s a stark contrast with all the informed, charitable FR Catholic commentary regarding Protestant belief, isn’t it, lol?


5 posted on 05/25/2013 4:55:13 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: NYer; netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; ...

Great Post. Thanks.


6 posted on 05/25/2013 5:17:01 AM PDT by Kenny Bunk ("Obama" The Movie. Introducing Reggie Love as "Monica." .)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: RegulatorCountry; A.A. Cunningham
In 50 AD or thereabouts, the Romans believed that Christianity was a sect of Judaism. In fact, for a long while official Rome tended to hold the Jews responsible for any "problems" perceived to be caused by Christians!

What went on in those early "services?" What was the "ritual?" In Rome? In Jerusalem, or Ephesus? What did the learned, official leaders of the Jews of the time think ... or write ... about Jesus? (although some of these commentaries definitely exist, they don't seem to be much studied. Top Secret?)

In regard to Constantine, he appeared as baffled by these questions as I am. However, once the Council made up its mind, he followed their direction. IMNVHO, it is also a bit naïve to ignore that Constantine's conversion and influence had a lot to do with eventually making Christianity as practiced and defined in Rome and Constantinople the "state religion."

The point being that no one is damned for not knowing the answers to these questions .... or asking them. The Bible is, IMO, of little specific help in answering them ... so tradition must count, too.

How? How much? Whose?

7 posted on 05/25/2013 5:40:33 AM PDT by Kenny Bunk ("Obama" The Movie. Introducing Reggie Love as "Monica." .)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: NYer
NYer: "Like the proverbial horse, the Roman emperor Constantine has been beaten to death by anti-Catholics."

It's curious, but the truth is exactly opposite: Constantine is a whip used to beat the Catholic church.

As Roman Emperors go, Constantine was well above average in every category, and nobody much objects to him as an Emperor (well, yes, there is that matter of some family murders, but then what emperor didn't kill off some of those closest to him? </sarc>).
But Constantine did something no other Emperor did: he not only legalized Christianity, but he outlawed Christian heresies (through the Nicene Council), and he began to overturn the old Roman pagan religions.

Constantine called the Nicene Council, paid the bishops' travel & lodging expenses, provided them his great hall, spoke at the council and "exhorted the Bishops to unanimity and concord".
Constantine then enforced the Council's decisions.

In short, Constantine took the first giant steps toward making Christianity the Empire's state religion, and toward making Christian heresies illegal.

And that is the tradition carried forward over a thousand years which confronted Martin Luther and other Protestant reformers.

In Constantine, the Church had made a pact with the devil, and in doing so became something of a devil itself.

8 posted on 05/25/2013 5:49:03 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Comment #9 Removed by Moderator

To: NYer; red irish; fastrock; NorthernCrunchyCon; UMCRevMom@aol.com; Finatic; fellowpatriot; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

10 posted on 05/25/2013 6:01:17 AM PDT by narses
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: narses

I’ve been told that I’d answer to the Pope for my sins at the Pearly Gates.

I’ve also been told numerous times that the Apostle Paul was a nut.

Which is the more serious error, dismissing the Apostle to the gentiles and believing someone other than God would judge me for my sins, or going overboard in dismissing a religious holiday that we as Christians are not commanded to observe?

I do observe Easter, by the way, just to nip that in the bud before any quaint cartoons get lobbed my way.


11 posted on 05/25/2013 6:08:00 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: RegulatorCountry

“I’ve been told that I’d answer to the Pope for my sins at the Pearly Gates.”

Right. Where was that?


12 posted on 05/25/2013 6:12:29 AM PDT by narses
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: narses

Here. If you’d care to dredge back through several years worth of my replies to get to it you’re welcome to do so. It’s an accurate statement.

There were some amazingly ignorant statements made by rad-trads early on in the invasion of the FR Religion forum. Still are, just not quite so blunt and not quite so obviously, hilariously wrong.


13 posted on 05/25/2013 6:17:48 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: NYer

I think Pope Francis’s comments on the recent daily Gospels: ... “What is that to you? You, follow Me.” ... are relevant here.


14 posted on 05/25/2013 6:38:59 AM PDT by Tax-chick (The Commie Plot Theory of Everything. Give it a try - you'll be surprised how often it makes sense.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: NYer

Constantine was not beaten to death by anti-Catholics. He died of an illness by all reputable references. This is just another spurious charge laid to the anti-Catholics.


15 posted on 05/25/2013 6:55:49 AM PDT by BipolarBob (Happy Hunger Games! May the odds be ever in your favor.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer

The sort of folks who get exercised about Constantine’s role in the Council of Nicaea are remarkably impervious to rational argument, but when confronted by them, you Latins might want to ask them sweetly, why if he founded your church, only the Orthodox venerate Constantine as a saint. (We even give him and his mother St. Helena the title Isapostoloi, Englished as Equals-to-the-Apostles. Someone gave our little mission a huge icon of Sts. Constantine and Helen, which is now in our office because it wouldn’t work anywhere in our chapel, being slightly bigger than the icons on our iconostasis.)


16 posted on 05/25/2013 7:38:49 AM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: BroJoeK
While magnifying the errors of a some "fundamentalists" who parrot such things as "the Inquisition killed millions," is used for polemical purposes in order to denigrate any who challenge her, RCs often fail to validate charges against Luther and use straw men descriptions of SS and sola fide.

The reality is that CA and Catholic Answers Forums has a persecution complex, seeing all "anti-Catholics" in every closet, that being one of its most frequent charges, while its forum is extremely touchy and regularly censures or banns people for slight offenses. I think they miss the powers of the inquisition and this is as close as they can get.

In short, Constantine took the first giant steps toward making Christianity the Empire's state religion, and toward making Christian heresies illegal.

Under Constantine, The so-called "Edict" of Milan of February 313 expressly granted religious liberty to Christians, who had been the object of special persecution, but also grants liberty to all religions:

When you see that this has been granted to [Christians] by us, your Worship will know that we have also conceded to other religions the right of open and free observance of their worship for the sake of the peace of our times, that each one may have the free opportunity to worship as he pleases; this regulation is made that we may not seem to detract from any dignity of any religion." —"Edict of Milan", Lactantius, On the Deaths of the Persecutors (De Mortibus Persecutorum), ch. 48. opera, ed. 0. F. Fritzsche, II, p 288 sq. (Bibl Patr. Ecc. Lat. XI).[8]

But while Constantine tolerated paganism and other religions, he actively promoted Christianity. He called the Council of Nicaea in an attempt to establish an empire-wide orthodoxy and end the controversy with Arianism.

This referenced WP article states,

Constantine took over the role of the patron for the Christian faith. He supported the Church financially, had an extraordinary number of basilicas built, granted privileges (e.g. exemption from certain taxes) to clergy, promoted Christians to high-ranking offices, returned property confiscated during the Great Persecution of Diocletian,[15] and endowed the church with land and other wealth.[16] Between 324 and 330, Constantine built a new imperial capital at Byzantium on the Bosphorus, which would be named Constantinople for him. Unlike "old" Rome, the city employed overtly Christian architecture and contained churches within the city walls and had no pre-existing temples from other religions.[17]

In doing this, however, Constantine required those who had not converted to Christianity pay for the new city.[16] Christian chroniclers tell that it appeared necessary to Constantine "to teach his subjects to give up their rites (...) and to accustom them to despise their temples and the images contained therein,"[18] This led to the closure of temples because of a lack of support, their wealth flowing to the imperial treasure;[19] Constantine did not need to use force to implement this.[16] Only the chronicler Theophanes has added that temples "were annihilated", but this was considered "not true" by contemporary historians.[20]

It was the The Edict of Thessalonica jointly issued by Theodosius I, Gratian, and Valentinian II on 27 February 380 that made the catholic church the state church.

After the edict, Theodosius spent a great deal of energy suppressing all non-Nicene forms of Christianity, especially Arianism, and in establishing Nicene orthodoxy throughout his realm.[4].

In 383, the Emperor ordered the various non-Nicene sects (Arians, Anomoeans, Macedonians, and Novatians) to submit written creeds to him, which he prayerfully reviewed and then burned, save for that of the Novatians. The other sects lost the right to meet, ordain priests, or spread their beliefs.[6] Theodosius prohibited the residence of heretics within Constantinople, and in 392 and 394 confiscated their places of worship.[7]

Today we have the IRS in a much smaller degree being ideologically oppressive.

17 posted on 05/25/2013 7:48:46 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: NYer
Like the proverbial horse, the Roman emperor Constantine has been beaten to death by anti-Catholics.

I have noticed that an obsession with Constantine (and the Nicene Council) serves as a red flag to look for other oddities. If they spontaneously launch into a tirade about either, definately.

There are many outside the tender clutches of Rome who aren't obsessed with Constantine.

18 posted on 05/25/2013 7:57:57 AM PDT by Lee N. Field ("You keep using that verse, but I do not think it means what you think it means." --I. Montoya)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer

Good article about the true foundations of the church. (And all the falsehoods that are spit out all the time here on FR about Constantine.)


19 posted on 05/25/2013 7:58:13 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Kenny Bunk

In 50 AD or thereabouts, the Romans believed that Christianity was a sect of Judaism. In fact, for a long while official Rome tended to hold the Jews responsible for any “problems” perceived to be caused by Christians!


I don,t follow history much but what you say makes sense.

The early Christians were called Jews.

With out going into detail it is pretty obvious that the gentiles thought that since they were adopted children they would be expected to keep the same law as the Jews.

That is why Paul had some problem making them understand that they were not saved by the law.

At any rate it is a fact that Christianity was brought to us by Jesus who was a Jew and by the apostles who were also Jews and all of the teachings were also based on the laws of God which were handed down through the Jews.

So how the Jews got put out i have no idea.


20 posted on 05/25/2013 8:00:56 AM PDT by ravenwolf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: BipolarBob

But it is true. Check the references given in the article.

See, here is that anti-Catholicism about Constantine, everybody!


21 posted on 05/25/2013 8:01:33 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: NYer

Poor Constantine. Without him who would the practicioners of a deviant forms of Christianity have to blame for all the things that “they” say are Pagan in the church, that is, till “their” personal “prophet” got it “right”.

I have no problem with Constantine. The Eastern Empire lasted 1000 years longer than the Western Empire.

I always like to remember that it was Constantine who authorized the production of 50 huge bibles, written in Greek, for the churches, a few which are still around today.


22 posted on 05/25/2013 8:03:48 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (When someone burns a cross on your lawn, the best firehose is an AK-47.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: RegulatorCountry
There were some amazingly ignorant statements made by rad-trads early on in the invasion of the FR Religion forum

The hijacking of this to promote Rome is more evident, while the statement in question maybe was due to the imagination that souls must meet Peter to get into Heaven, or was extrapolated from statements of papal power on earth, such as from Leo13m that , "We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty" (www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13praec.htm), and those from the Dictatus Papae by Pope Gregory VII, that the pope's sentence cannot be repealed by anyone and he alone can review the judgements of all; he can depose emperors; he can absolve subjects from their allegiance to impious rulers; the Pope is the only man to whom all princes bend the knee; all princes should kiss his feet... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatus_papae)

23 posted on 05/25/2013 8:11:31 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: daniel1212
daniel1212: "In doing this, however, Constantine required those who had not converted to Christianity pay for the new city.[16]
Christian chroniclers tell that it appeared necessary to Constantine "to teach his subjects to give up their rites (...) and to accustom them to despise their temples and the images contained therein,"[18]
This led to the closure of temples because of a lack of support, their wealth flowing to the imperial treasure..."

To me, this is key to the story, and explains everything.
Constantine promoted Christianity, and also seized pagan wealth to pay for his imperial projects.
It was a win-win for Christians, with the added bonus of eliminating competing heresies.

It first established patterns of Church-State partnerships which lasted well into the 20th century.

24 posted on 05/25/2013 9:20:52 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: NYer

You would almost think the Emperor Constantine a historical non-event around here. The sort of thing one might expect on a Roman Catholic website...which is apparently what FR is, just look at the threads. Pope this, and Pope that.

Truth is:
Under Constantine, Christianity was virtually made the state religion of the Roman Empire. the spirit of the Roman Empire entered Christianity: Christianity in the garb of the Roman Empire.

The church was founded, not as an institution of authority to force the name of Christ upon the world, but only as a witness-bearing institution to Christ. Constantine was the historical benchmark that changed all that.

The Church, founded in the days of the Roman Empire, gradually developed a form of government like the political world in which it existed, becoming a vast autocratic organization ruled from the top.

The Roman Catholic Church is not the church, but a political machine that took over the church.


25 posted on 05/25/2013 9:28:47 AM PDT by sasportas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer
Constantine did not sign the Edict of Milan. In fact there was no Edict of Milan.

Constantine and Licinius (the emperor of the East) met in Milan in Feb. 313 and agreed on religious toleration. Later, Licinius issued an edict of toleration (June 313) in Nicomedia.

Constantine was already not only tolerating Christianity in his half of the empire but actively favoring it. But he was also trying to compel the Donatists to submit to the Catholics in North Africa (that was a schism over who was the rightful bishop of Carthage rather than a question of heresy, at least at the outset).

26 posted on 05/25/2013 9:39:21 AM PDT by Verginius Rufus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sasportas

I traveled to the so called “experts” site and I will have to throw out all the encyclopedias that teach otherwise. This site has become a catholic circus, where 1 roundhead posts to another and they all agree on their false postings. The world is in the shape it is and whom is the chief religion in charge in the world? The one that teaches the 9 commanments. What are the fruits of romanism? Look around you, clear as ever.


27 posted on 05/25/2013 11:35:46 AM PDT by Big Bopper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Verginius Rufus
Constantine did not sign the Edict of Milan. In fact there was no Edict of Milan.

The Edict of Milan

28 posted on 05/25/2013 1:32:25 PM PDT by NYer ( "Run from places of sin as from the plague."--St John Climacus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Big Bopper

Are you SDA, Big Bopper? Or a RC agent provocateur posing as an SDA?


29 posted on 05/25/2013 1:32:53 PM PDT by sasportas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: sasportas
The Church, founded in the days of the Roman Empire, gradually developed a form of government like the political world in which it existed, becoming a vast autocratic organization ruled from the top.


The CATHOLIC CHURCH

Although it is not widely known in our Western world, the Catholic Church is actually a communion of Churches. According to the Constitution on the Church of the Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, the Catholic Church is understood to be "a corporate body of Churches," united with the Pope of Rome, who serves as the guardian of unity (LG, no. 23). At present there are 22 Churches that comprise the Catholic Church. The new Code of Canon Law, promulgated by Pope John Paul II, uses the phrase "autonomous ritual Churches" to describe these various Churches (canon 112). Each Church has its own hierarchy, spirituality, and theological perspective. Because of the particularities of history, there is only one Western Catholic Church, while there are 21 Eastern Catholic Churches. The Western Church, known officially as the Latin Church, is the largest of the Catholic Churches. It is immediately subject to the Roman Pontiff as Patriarch of the West. The Eastern Catholic Churches are each led by a Patriarch, Major Archbishop, or Metropolitan, who governs their Church together with a synod of bishops. Through the Congregation for Oriental Churches, the Roman Pontiff works to assure the health and well-being of the Eastern Catholic Churches.

While this diversity within the one Catholic Church can appear confusing at first, it in no way compromises the Church's unity. In a certain sense, it is a reflection of the mystery of the Trinity. Just as God is three Persons, yet one God, so the Church is 22 Churches, yet one Church.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes this nicely:

"From the beginning, this one Church has been marked by a great diversity which comes from both the variety of God's gifts and the diversity of those who receive them... Holding a rightful place in the communion of the Church there are also particular Churches that retain their own traditions. The great richness of such diversity is not opposed to the Church's unity" (CCC no. 814).

Although there are 22 Churches, there are only eight "Rites" that are used among them. A Rite is a "liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony," (Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, canon 28). "Rite" best refers to the liturgical and disciplinary traditions used in celebrating the sacraments. Many Eastern Catholic Churches use the same Rite, although they are distinct autonomous Churches. For example, the Ukrainian Catholic Church and the Melkite Catholic Church are distinct Churches with their own hierarchies. Yet they both use the Byzantine Rite.

To learn more about the "two lungs" of the Catholic Church, visit this link:

CATHOLIC RITES AND CHURCHES

The Vatican II Council declared that "all should realize it is of supreme importance to understand, venerate, preserve, and foster the exceedingly rich liturgical and spiritual heritage of the Eastern churches, in order faithfully to preserve the fullness of Christian tradition" (Unitatis Redintegrato, 15).

A Roman rite Catholic may attend any Eastern Catholic Liturgy and fulfill his or her obligations at any Eastern Catholic Parish. A Roman rite Catholic may join any Eastern Catholic Parish and receive any sacrament from an Eastern Catholic priest, since all belong to the Catholic Church as a whole. I am a Roman Catholic practicing my faith at a Maronite Catholic Church. Like the Chaldeans, the Maronites retain Aramaic for the Consecration. It is as close as one comes to being at the Last Supper.

30 posted on 05/25/2013 1:40:34 PM PDT by NYer ( "Run from places of sin as from the plague."--St John Climacus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: sasportas; BroJoeK
You would almost think the Emperor Constantine a historical non-event around here. The sort of thing one might expect on a Roman Catholic website...which is apparently what FR is, just look at the threads. Pope this, and Pope that.

Daily. RSS feed: Roman site syndication. A plethora of papal promotion by those seemingly driven to do so. Perhaps it gains an indulgence each time.

31 posted on 05/25/2013 1:58:58 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: BroJoeK

Constantine favored Christianity as a party but was not a Christian until he was on his deathbed, and he favored Arianism, which was not the faith of the majority because it was closer to his own faith, which was the worship of Sol Invictus. He also considered Judaism, but it was so peculiar, so national that he decided he could not subscribe to it, even though is many respects it was more like the pagan faiths. We see how he and his mother decided to build Christian temples to replace the old temples. She went to Jerusalem and laid the groundwork that led to the construction of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher and a Church of our Lady. If Constantine had chosen Judaism, he would have reconstructed the Jewish Temple.


32 posted on 05/25/2013 2:19:53 PM PDT by RobbyS
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: daniel1212

What is it with you all and indulgences? They play about as much a role in Catholicism is a pardon does in our political system.


33 posted on 05/25/2013 2:24:26 PM PDT by RobbyS
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: BroJoeK
Constantine promoted Christianity, and also seized pagan wealth to pay for his imperial projects.
It was a win-win for Christians, with the added bonus of eliminating competing heresies.
It first established patterns of Church-State partnerships which lasted well into the 20th century.

Well, almost correct...Constantine promoted a religious sect that claimed to be Christianity but was the beginning of the Catholic religion...

It was a win-win for the new Catholic religion since Constantine forced his armed forces to get baptized and become Catholics whether they wanted to or not...

This gave the new religion the massive power to overthrow by force those Christians who died holding their scriptures and refusing to bow down to the new state-religion...

And thank God, groups of those Christians and copies of those scriptures perservered thru-out history to this day...

34 posted on 05/25/2013 2:50:22 PM PDT by Iscool
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: NYer; All

I wouldn’t necessarily blame Constantine for the RCC. In fact, even by the time of Pope Gregory the first, the idea of the supremacy of Rome had yet to take hold. According to the Catechism, the Roman Bishop is:

882 ... the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful.”402 “For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered.”403

883 “The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter’s successor, as its head.” As such, this college has “supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff.”404

It was this same idea of universal power of a ‘general Father” that Gregory condemned in the then Bishop of Constantinople, who had taken the title Universal Bishop.

“What then, dearest brother, will you say in that terrible scrutiny of the coming judgment, if you covet to be called in the world not only father, but even general father? Let, then, the bad suggestion of evil men be guarded against; let all instigation to offense be fled from. It must needs be (indeed) that offenses come; nevertheless, woe to that man by whom the offense comes Matthew 18:7. Lo, by reason of this execrable title of pride the Church is rent asunder, the hearts of all the brethren are provoked to offense. What! Has it escaped your memory how the Truth says, Whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a mill stone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea (Ib. 5:6)? But it is written, Charity seeks not her own 1 Corinthians 13:4. Lo, your Fraternity arrogates to itself even what is not its own. Again it is written, In honour preferring one another Romans 12:10. And you attempt to take the honour away from all which you desire unlawfully to usurp to yourself singularly. Where, dearest brother, is that which is written, Have peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord Hebrews 12:14? Where is that which is written, Blessed are the peacemakers; for they shall be called the children of God Matthew 5:9?”

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/360205018.htm

Some Catholics can read this letter and say that Gregory only condemned the title, but not the power they claim he still possessed. However, there are other instances where Gregory could have embraced his role as “universal” Bishop of the entire church. While at this time the idea of the “Primacy of Peter” was in vogue, yet this same primacy was not translated to a supremacy over the entire church. And, in fact, there wasn’t just one person who held the “throne” of Peter; it was held by one Apostolic see ruled by divine authority by THREE separate Bishops, which is that of Antioch, Alexandria and Rome. Here is the letter in full, but first I am going to quote the RCC abuse of it:

The link first
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/360207040.htm

Now here are the Roman quotations of this letter, wherein they assert that Gregory is a champion of the Primacy of Rome. Take special note of the clever use of ellipses:

Pope Gregory I

“Your most sweet holiness, [Bishop Eulogius of Alexandria], has spoken much in your letter to me about the chair of Saint Peter, prince of the apostles, saying that he himself now sits on it in the persons of his successors. And indeed I acknowledge myself to be unworthy . . . I gladly accepted all that has been said, in that he has spoken to me about Peter’s chair, who occupies Peter’s chair. And, though special honor to myself in no wise delights me . . . who can be ignorant that holy Church has been made firm in the solidity of the prince of the apostles, who derived his name from the firmness of his mind, so as to be called Peter from petra. And to him it is said by the voice of the Truth, ‘To you I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven’ [Matt. 16:19]. And again it is said to him, ‘And when you are converted, strengthen your brethren’ [Luke 22:32]. And once more, ‘Simon, son of John, do you love me? Feed my sheep’ [John 21:17]” (Letters 40 [A.D. 597]).

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-authority-of-the-pope-part-ii

“Who does not know that the holy Church is founded on the solidity of the Chief Apostle, whose name expressed his firmness, being called Peter from Petra (Rock)?...Though there were many Apostles, only the See of the Prince of the Apostles...received supreme authority in virtue of its very principate.” (Letter to the Patriarch Eulogius of Alexandria, Ep. 7)

http://credo.stormloader.com/Ecumenic/gregory.htm

I provide their versions of the quotations only to highlight for you the parts they omit. And, really, there is no reason for them to omit them. The lines they remove are small sentences, and then they continue quoting right after they finish. It’s quite an embarrassing display!

In this letter, Gregory is specifically attributing to the Bishops of Alexandra and Antioch the “Chair of Peter” and its authority that they bestowed upon him. In the first quotation, the Romans omit the sentence which says: “And, though special honour to myself in no wise delights me, [they omit here] yet I greatly rejoiced because you, most holy ones, have given to yourselves what you have bestowed upon me. [They rebegin here]” After telling them about the “special honor” that is respectively given to both parties, Gregory immediately goes into a discussion on what that special honor is... which is the Primacy of Peter they all enjoy.

“Wherefore though there are many apostles, yet with regard to the principality itself the See of the Prince of the apostles alone has grown strong in authority, which in three places is the See of one. For he himself exalted the See in which he deigned even to rest and end the present life. He himself adorned the See to which he sent his disciple as evangelist. He himself established the See in which, though he was to leave it, he sat for seven years. Since then it is the See of one, and one See, over which by Divine authority three bishops now preside, whatever good I hear of you, this I impute to myself. If you believe anything good of me, impute this to your merits, since we are one in Him Who says, That they all may be one, as You, Father, art in me, and I in you that they also may be one in us John 17:21.”

Notice how different this reads when one does not omit what the Romans omit! Gregory declares that the See of Peter is one see... but in THREE places, over which THREE Bishops preside, which is Rome, Antioch and Alexandria, the latter of which he was now writing to.

So while the Romans insist that the Primacy of Peter refers to the Bishop of Rome, Gregory applies the Primacy of Peter to ALL the major Bishops of the See. They are, in effect, ALL the Church of Peter, and possess his chair and authority.

And Gregory, of course, isn’t alone in this. Theodoret references the same belief when he places the “throne of Peter” under the Bishop of Antioch:

“Dioscorus, however, refuses to abide by these decisions; he is turning the See of the blessed Mark upside down; and these things he does though he perfectly well knows that the Antiochene (of Antioch) metropolis possesses the throne of the great Peter, who was teacher of the blessed Mark, and first and coryphæus (head of the choir) of the chorus of the apostles.” Theodoret - Letter LXXXVI - To Flavianus, Bishop of Constantinople.

So while you may have particular people saying that the Roman Bishop has authority, or has the chair of Peter, yet these same accolades are given to multiple Bishops, all said to have the “throne” or authority of “Peter.”

In this way we can truly understand Gregory’s rejection of the title of Universal, since to do so would be to steal the Throne from beneath the other Bishops he honored as equals in divine authority.

It wasn’t until after Gregory that the Roman Bishop took on the power he so enjoys today, though, of course, they’ve fallen quite far from when they used to boast about all the princes of the Earth bowing to them.


35 posted on 05/25/2013 3:13:27 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Big Bopper

Roundhead? I think you might have the wrong historical pejorative, there.

Roundheads were Parliamentarians, supporters of Cromwell, Republican and “Protestant,” being mostly Puritan, Presbyterian, Baptist, etc. although some were CoE and found being so described offensive. Some still do.

Cavaliers were Royalists and almost entirely CoE. Then there were the Catholics, allied with Royalists of course, since the whole kerfluffle initially centered upon the Catholicising tendencies, real or imagined, of King Charles I.

So, the historical pejorative you’re searching for would be “papist.”


36 posted on 05/25/2013 3:18:28 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Iscool
Iscool: "Well, almost correct...Constantine promoted a religious sect that claimed to be Christianity but was the beginning of the Catholic religion..."

Most Christians in the time of Constantine would today be called Eastern Orthodox, not Roman Catholic.

Constantine brought them together at Nicaea and required them to develop a single doctrine which all must subscribe to or be treated as heretics.

The bishops obliged, the majority ruled, and minority heretics fell into the same category as pagans: outlawed with property confiscated for the Emperor's treasury.

For on thing: it was the Emperor's alternative to raising everyone's taxes to finance his great imperial projects.

37 posted on 05/25/2013 3:35:51 PM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Big Bopper

I believe you’re correct.


38 posted on 05/25/2013 4:28:20 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS
Constantine favored Christianity as a party but was not a Christian until he was on his deathbed, and he favored Arianism, which was not the faith of the majority because it was closer to his own faith, which was the worship of Sol Invictus. He also considered Judaism, but it was so peculiar, so national that he decided he could not subscribe to it, even though is many respects it was more like the pagan faiths. We see how he and his mother decided to build Christian temples to replace the old temples. She went to Jerusalem and laid the groundwork that led to the construction of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher and a Church of our Lady. If Constantine had chosen Judaism, he would have reconstructed the Jewish Temple.

Correct! Those who use Constantine against the Catholic Church are historically inaccurate.

All one needs to do is listen to the words of Saint Hilary of Poiters- who was far more influential than Constantine.

From Saint Hilary of Poiters

‘But nowadays, we have to do with a disguised persecutor, a smooth-tongued enemy, a Constantius who has put on Antichrist; who scourges us, not with lashes, but with caresses who instead of robbing us, which would give us spiritual life, bribes us with riches, that he may lead us to eternal death; who thrusts us not into the liberty of a prison, but into the honours of his palace, that he may enslave us: who tears not our flesh, but our hearts; who beheads not with a sword, but kills the soul with his gold; who sentences not by a herald that we are to be burnt, but covertly enkindles the fire of hell against us. He does not dispute with us, that he may conquer; but he flatters us, that so he may lord it over our souls. He confesses Christ, the better to deny him; he tries to procure a unity which shall destroy peace; he puts down some few heretics, so that he may also crush the Christians....-Saint Hilary of Poiters

39 posted on 05/25/2013 5:51:11 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatst gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: RobbyS; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; smvoice; HarleyD; Springfield Reformer; ..
What is it with you all and indulgences? They play about as much a role in Catholicism is a pardon does in our political system.

They play a very substantial role for RCs, as did money for them in the past, while the point was that there are so many FR posts on the pope and Catholicism - and far more than there used to be - that one can wonder if some RCs think they get an indulgence for posting them.

Meanwhile the pardon for sin is that of Christ by which a soul is justified by a kind of faith that will follow Christ, which faith is counted for righteousness.

And with growth in grace toward practical maturity taking place in this life with its temptations and afflictions, and not in purifying torments commencing at death so that one progressively becomes perfect enough to enter glory. One either has true faith which effects characteristic holiness, or he does not.

In Scripture, the only clear teaching as to the postmortem place for the believer refers to them being with the Lord. Not only would the penitent criminal go to "paradise" (Lk. 23:43; cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7) as well as Paul and be with the Lord upon their passing, (Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8: “we”) but so would every resurrected/raptured Corinthian (1Cor. 15:51ff) or Thessalonian, “to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord,” (1Thess. 4:17) if He came, even though the believers among the former were in need of further purification. (2Cor. 7:1)

Nor does 1Cor. 3 refer to purgatory, as the judgment of believers which 1 Cor. 3 describes only takes place at His return, (1Cor. 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:21-23; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4) versus purgatory, which has souls suffering upon death.

And in which believers whose work (which he built the church with) is burned up are saved despite this loss (and which is their suffering, and the Lord's grievous disapproval), not because of this loss. More

Even Mal. 12 also does not teach purgatory, and RCs trying to find support this tradition do not have any clear Scriptural teaching for it, but try to extrapolate it from unclear texts which of suffering for sins and the need for holiness, but which do not say the redeemed realize postmortem suffering to expiate sin and become holy enough to see God. For it is part of Catholicism 's amorphous tradition, not Scripture.

But may I (fully be committed to being ) be as holy and useful as i can be, more than now.

40 posted on 05/25/2013 6:04:53 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Thanks. More on non-existent early universal supreme papacy.
41 posted on 05/25/2013 6:36:41 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: daniel1212

You are beguiled by a clinging to Reformation legend and of course by Lutheran doctrine—and please do not say that you owe nothing to him because you owe everything this single priests private view of what is right and true. It boils down to a question of authority. The Church claims to speak with an authority given it by Jesus Christ. You reject that claim, but that does not mean your right but only that you have your own claims to make, which is that you rather than the Church know what the true Gospel is. Like Luther you reject the authority of pope, bishops and councils and accept only the authority of the Bible. Further that you are authorized to interpret the Bible by the Holy Spirit, although why you expect anyone to accept this is beyond me because you invoke an unseen authority who may not be in fact who you think him to be. Regarding Indulgences, this is like that of a Presidential pardon—it absolves a person of the consequences of his actions but not his guilt. It is different because it is conditional on the admission of guilt. More the person who has admitted the guilt and is asking for the indulgence or the person for who he is acting must truly be repentant, or the indulgence has no effect whatsoever. In the end, a person’s heart is known but to God.


42 posted on 05/25/2013 6:40:31 PM PDT by RobbyS
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: NYer

When Jesus returns, will he find us still arguing? Or will all Christians be one, as he asked us to be?


43 posted on 05/25/2013 6:40:44 PM PDT by firebrand
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: NYer

The Talmud has been “beaten to death” by Catholics.


44 posted on 05/25/2013 7:03:59 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: firebrand
When Jesus returns, will he find us still arguing? Or will all Christians be one, as he asked us to be?

When Jesus returns, we Christians will be returning with him...

45 posted on 05/25/2013 7:07:25 PM PDT by Iscool
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: Big Bopper

There is no history but Catholic history... /s


46 posted on 05/25/2013 7:09:35 PM PDT by Iscool
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

Comment #47 Removed by Moderator

To: stfassisi

Indeed, Constantius played a much large role because he pushed not so much Arianism as “semi-arianism,” which used the words of Nicaea but emptied them of their force. It was the moderist heresy of their time.


48 posted on 05/25/2013 7:41:07 PM PDT by RobbyS
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: BroJoeK

If it was written by one of The 12, how can it be heresy?


49 posted on 05/25/2013 7:52:05 PM PDT by Lurker (Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is it is the only answer.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: narses

Stop carrying that argument from thread to thread!


50 posted on 05/25/2013 8:01:49 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-150151-200 ... 251-256 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson