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Vatican corrects infallible pope: atheists will still burn in hell
Irish Central ^ | 5/26/2013

Posted on 05/27/2013 7:43:17 AM PDT by DaveMSmith

The Vatican has just announced that, despite what Pope Francis said in his homily earlier this week, atheists are still going to hell.

What a relief. For a brief moment there it was possible to imagine a brave new world of compassion, generosity and acceptance, not qualities we have come to associate with the Holy See.

Said Pope Francis this week: 'The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!'

That seemed like a pretty clear admission that people of other faiths and none have intrinsic worth to God and will be saved alongside the faithful. But this turned out to be wishful thinking.

Although they are otherwise good, moral people they are still doomed to burn in a lake of fire for having the temerity to have been born outside of Catholicism or having chosen to remain so.

The Rev. Thomas Rosica, a Vatican spokesman, spelled it out for the world on Thursday. People who know about the Catholic church 'cannot be saved' if they 'refuse to enter her or remain in her,' he said.

So that's one tall order of eternal hellfire for the rest of us, then.

It makes for an interesting spectacle to see the infallible pope being corrected by his handlers, doesn't it? For a moment it was possible to recall the welcoming and indulgent style of the short lived Pope John Paul I in the unexpectedly all-embracing words of Pope Francis. But you'll recall how quickly John Paul I was replaced by the much more doctrinaire John Paul II.

(Excerpt) Read more at irishcentral.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Ecumenism; General Discusssion; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: catholic; dlemm; misreporting; redemption; romancatholicism; salvation; sectarianturmoil
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The Pope's "handlers" - LOL
1 posted on 05/27/2013 7:43:17 AM PDT by DaveMSmith
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To: DaveMSmith

I have yet to meet a genuine atheist. It turns out that every professed atheist I have ever met was just mad at God about one thing or another, so they tried to justify Him out of existence. They tried to deny Him, but when pressed on it, I discovered that this anger remained just below the surface. It’s impossible to be angry at something that does not exist.


2 posted on 05/27/2013 7:49:00 AM PDT by Hoodat (BENGHAZI - 4 KILLED, 2 MIA)
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To: DaveMSmith

I agree with the Pope. If you know about the church but somehow you didn’t really understand, then you can be saved.
Therefore everybody is covered.


3 posted on 05/27/2013 7:49:21 AM PDT by oldbrowser (We have a rogue government in Washington)
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To: DaveMSmith

“There are people who don’t believe in Hell until they get there.”


4 posted on 05/27/2013 7:49:43 AM PDT by elcid1970 ("The Second Amendment is more important than Islam.")
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To: Hoodat

>>I have yet to meet a genuine atheist. It turns out that every professed atheist I have ever met was just mad at God about one thing or another, so they tried to justify Him out of existence. They tried to deny Him, but when pressed on it, I discovered that this anger remained just below the surface. It’s impossible to be angry at something that does not exist.

I’ve noticed that too.


5 posted on 05/27/2013 7:53:16 AM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: DaveMSmith

I’m not catholic, use to be, but I really like this pope!


6 posted on 05/27/2013 7:53:19 AM PDT by Linda Frances (Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness)
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To: DaveMSmith

So now spokesmen speak infallibly?


7 posted on 05/27/2013 7:54:02 AM PDT by Carpe Cerevisi
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To: DaveMSmith

“He who believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he who does not believe will be damned,” Jesus declares in Mark 16:16.

The pope cannot change the teachings of Jesus to fit the wishful thinking of the times.


8 posted on 05/27/2013 7:55:18 AM PDT by txrefugee
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To: oldbrowser

No, it doesn’t work that way at all. The Pope is 100% wrong. There would be no need for Christ in your “universal salvation” scenario.


9 posted on 05/27/2013 7:56:39 AM PDT by sigzero
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To: DaveMSmith

Not even the Catholic church claims that everything the pope says is infallible.


10 posted on 05/27/2013 7:56:57 AM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: DaveMSmith
The ignorance of the Pope's "handlers" - sigh

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I write this to you, so that you do not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Intercessor with the Father, Yeshua Messiah, a righteous One. 2 And He Himself is an atoning offering for our sins, and not for ours only but also for all the world.

Jn 3:16 For God so loved "the world"

11 posted on 05/27/2013 7:57:07 AM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: oldbrowser

>>I agree with the Pope. If you know about the church but somehow you didn’t really understand, then you can be saved. Therefore everybody is covered.

Everyone is covered (i.e. there are no “ethic” or “national” Christians), but not everyone is saved. Jesus died for the redemption of the world, but each person has to proclaim that he accepts Christ as his savior.

Otherwise, you are in the Law and will be judged according to the Law. Good luck atheists with that First Commandment.


12 posted on 05/27/2013 7:57:13 AM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: oldbrowser

There is a difference between “redemption” and “salvation”. Think collectively and individually. Everyone is redeemed but it’s up to the individual to be saved.


13 posted on 05/27/2013 7:57:16 AM PDT by Carpe Cerevisi
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To: oldbrowser

Exactly! All are saved, but you have to accept your salvation for it to have any effect on your life and after life.


14 posted on 05/27/2013 7:57:50 AM PDT by SubMareener (Save us from Quarterly Freepathons! Become a MONTHLY DONOR!)
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To: DaveMSmith

The pope’s infallible statement is no longer operable.


15 posted on 05/27/2013 7:57:58 AM PDT by gitmo ( If your theology doesn't become your biography it's useless.)
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To: oldbrowser

You may want to read the Bible... That is not at all what the word of God says.

The word tells us that there are many people who are like dust in the wind, and they will die and not be remembered, like dry grass.

They will perish and be nothing. That is the truth.

Of course it is easier to give in to sin, and pretend that we don’t know better, and then use the loophole that everyone is saved anyway. So why bother?

If everyone is covered with a loop hole, then why did Jesus tells us to be perfect, to shed our sin and follow him, and to be examples so we can lead others?


16 posted on 05/27/2013 8:04:43 AM PDT by Truth2012
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To: DaveMSmith
The Vatican has just announced that, despite what Pope Francis said in his homily earlier this week, atheists are still going to hell. What a relief. For a brief moment there it was possible to imagine a brave new world of compassion, generosity and acceptance, not qualities we have come to associate with the Holy See.

Belgian Archbishop attacking topless Lesbian pacifists


17 posted on 05/27/2013 8:05:53 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (It is the deviants who are the bullies.)
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To: patlin
Jn 3:16 For God so loved "the world"

Uh oh. Now you've done it.

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.

Romans 8:18-22

18 posted on 05/27/2013 8:06:25 AM PDT by Hoodat (BENGHAZI - 4 KILLED, 2 MIA)
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To: oldbrowser

How so many conveniently forget it is not automatic.
John, 14:6.
“Jesus said unto him, “I am that Way, and that Truth, and that Life. No man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
1599 Geneva Bible


19 posted on 05/27/2013 8:08:02 AM PDT by mazda77
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To: oldbrowser
Matthew 7:13

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

20 posted on 05/27/2013 8:08:58 AM PDT by Manic_Episode (Some days...it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps....)
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To: DaveMSmith

Pope Francis did not speak “ex cathedra” and was not united with the bishops.He was speaking “off the cuff” as it were. Infallibility does not pertain.


21 posted on 05/27/2013 8:10:22 AM PDT by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's Economics In One Lesson ONLINE http://steshaw.org/econohttp://www.fee.org/library/det)
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To: Linda Frances
I’m not catholic, use to be, but I really like this pope!

Well, I guess so. He did say that even you could be saved, though under the circumstance he was not speaking for the Church or the Magisterium.

22 posted on 05/27/2013 8:13:19 AM PDT by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's Economics In One Lesson ONLINE http://steshaw.org/econohttp://www.fee.org/library/det)
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To: DaveMSmith

I am more convinced that many in the ‘Vatican’ will burn in hell, than I am that ‘atheists’ (I wonder which type of atheist they meant?) will.


23 posted on 05/27/2013 8:13:26 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (The monsters are due on Maple Street)
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To: Bryanw92; Hoodat

There is a movie with Samuel L. Jackson and Tommy Lee Jones named THE SUNSET LIMITED which deals with that very problem.

If you haven’t seen it, I would recommend it. Very thought provoking.


24 posted on 05/27/2013 8:16:59 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (The monsters are due on Maple Street)
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To: gitmo
The pope’s infallible statement is no longer operable.Not infallible. He was not speaking in union with the Bishops nor was he proclaiming a dogma which are the requirements for infallibility. He was voicing an opinion.The Church says to pray for the salvation of all men but does not say that all will be saved. Scripture indicates that there are certain requirements that atheists do not meet.
25 posted on 05/27/2013 8:19:05 AM PDT by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's Economics In One Lesson ONLINE http://steshaw.org/econohttp://www.fee.org/library/det)
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To: DuncanWaring
Not even the Catholic church claims that everything the pope says is infallible.

I think it's more likely that the 'infallibility' thing is a MEDIA CONCEPTION, especially since it's being dispensed by the MEDIA.

Some reporters read a TWITTER post that said "This Pope is Perfect for the Church", and they just took it from there.

26 posted on 05/27/2013 8:20:16 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (The monsters are due on Maple Street)
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To: sigzero

“There would be no need for Christ in your “universal salvation” scenario.”

The Pope didn’t preach universal salvation nor does he believe in it. Also, Christ would still be necessary even if universal salvation were true because it would still be ONLY THROUGH HIS GRACE won on the Cross that anyone could be saved. He opened the gates of Heaven. No matter who it is who walks through them, got through them because of Jesus Christ.


27 posted on 05/27/2013 8:22:20 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: gitmo

He made no infallible statement.


28 posted on 05/27/2013 8:23:20 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: DaveMSmith

What this means is that once again the Press tried to do Theology and failed. Redemption and Salvation are not the same thing. If you knew the Truth of the Catholic Church and rejected Her, then yes you will be damned. Knowing the Truth is different than just knowing the Church exists.


29 posted on 05/27/2013 8:24:04 AM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: DaveMSmith

Yes, nothing the Pope says is infallible unless it is formally spoken ex cathedra, in an Encyclical, in a Church Council, or in agreement with the Bishops.

Also, I don’t know what either the Pope or “the Vatican” actually said, but this report is very careless (which is why I don’t trust it to report anything accurately).

The teaching of the Church is that no one can be saved except through the grace of God and through His Church. But—that grace can be extended to Christians outside the Church, to Jews, to pagans, to atheists, or to anyone else whom God chooses to save because they sin through ignorance rather than deliberate choice.

Something to that effect. Matter of fact, the point was one of the few clarified in the Second Vatican Council and in Encyclicals published since then.


30 posted on 05/27/2013 8:25:28 AM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: DaveMSmith

God has redeemed atheists — they just choose not to accept God, Christ or the Holy Spirit.


31 posted on 05/27/2013 8:25:36 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: DaveMSmith

**Vatican corrects infallible pope: atheists will still burn in hell**

What a misleading headline.

The statement was not made infallibly — it was just said in a homily/sermon.

Some journalists have no brains at all when it comes to telling the truth about the Catholic Church.


32 posted on 05/27/2013 8:27:10 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Hoodat

Allow me to introduce myself. I’m an un-angry atheist. Now you’ve met at least one.


33 posted on 05/27/2013 8:28:41 AM PDT by Natufian (t)
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To: txrefugee
is baptized shall be saved

Many atheists were baptized. In fact, in the overall scheme of life, most people were Baptized. So I think it will be very crowed in Heaven according to you.

34 posted on 05/27/2013 8:29:53 AM PDT by napscoordinator (Santorum-Bachmann 2016 for the future of the Country!)
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To: All
The Rev. Thomas Rosica, a Vatican spokesman, spelled it out for the world on Thursday. People who know about the Catholic church 'cannot be saved' if they 'refuse to enter her or remain in her,' he said. So that's one tall order of eternal hellfire for the rest of us, then.

It makes for an interesting spectacle to see the infallible pope being corrected by his handlers, doesn't it? For a moment it was possible to recall the welcoming and indulgent style of the short lived Pope John Paul I in the unexpectedly all-embracing words of Pope Francis. But you'll recall how quickly John Paul I was replaced by the much more doctrinaire John Paul II.

Ping for later

35 posted on 05/27/2013 8:30:21 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: Carpe Cerevisi
There is a difference between “redemption” and “salvation”. Think collectively and individually. Everyone is redeemed but it’s up to the individual to be saved.

That is what I said. But not nearly as well as you did. Thanks for the much better explanation.

36 posted on 05/27/2013 8:30:47 AM PDT by oldbrowser (We have a rogue government in Washington)
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To: Linda Frances
If you were baptized a Catholic -- there you will ALWAYS be a Catholic, whether you are a practicing one or not. Sit down with a priest and get your questions answered -- or go here:

Coming Home Network

37 posted on 05/27/2013 8:31:00 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: lastchance

I feel sorry for you. Your world will be rocked when you get to heaven and find a bunch of us protestants there. Salvation is of Jesus Christ, not the roman catholic or any other denomination.


38 posted on 05/27/2013 8:31:30 AM PDT by Mom MD (A million people attended Obamas inauguration. 14 of them actually missed work)
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To: gitmo

It wasn’t an infallible statement to begin with. It was only one line in a sermon.


39 posted on 05/27/2013 8:32:14 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: DaveMSmith
There is no reason to defend the Pope on this because what he said was correct. He didn't "mispeak" or carelessly "speak off the cuff" "The Vatican" in no way "corrected" the Pope, because there was nothing to correct. Instead, it clarified the Pope's statement for people (including the media and many people on this thread) who do not know the difference between REDEMPTION and SALVATION.

We are all REDEEMED. Christ's sacrifice on the Cross paid the price for man's sin, closed the breach between man and God, was sufficient to make salvation possible for all.

SALVATION is only for those who accept the grace of God made available because of Christ's sacrifice on the Cross. Even if one who, through no fault of their own, has never heard the true Gospel places their trust in God to the extent that God has revealed Himself to them, CAN (not WILL) be saved.

Basically, redemption is collective, while salvation is individual. Christ redeemed humanity collectively from slavery to sin and from the debt of punishment that mankind, as a whole, owed due to sin. Every person, Christian or non-Christian, is redeemed because he is a member of the human race. Salvation is the application of redemption to individuals. A person can choose to reject the graces won for him by Christ even though he has been redeemed.

So, to recap:

REDEMPTION is not the same as SALVATION

REDEMPTION is not the same as SALVATION

REDEMPTION is not the same as SALVATION

REDEMPTION is not the same as SALVATION

REDEMPTION is not the same as SALVATION

REDEMPTION is not the same as SALVATION

REDEMPTION is not the same as SALVATION

REDEMPTION is not the same as SALVATION

REDEMPTION is not the same as SALVATION

REDEMPTION is not the same as SALVATION

Get that fact straight and there is no problem with anything the Pope said.

40 posted on 05/27/2013 8:35:42 AM PDT by fidelis (Zonie and USAF Cold Warrior)
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To: Hoodat

Yes I have noticed that as well. I would say Penn Jillette might be an exception. He is an interesting and formidable atheist. He is no intellectual slouch and is well read on the Bible and likes to pull out certain passages as evidence that it is all BS (term he likes). For an atheist he sure has spent a lot of time studying it

What is different about him is he says he has no respect for any Christian that does not evangelize. He says that if someone really believes this stuff why wouldn’t they try to save others? so he doesn’t get angry when people try to save him. He thinks it is thoughtful. Interesting.


41 posted on 05/27/2013 8:35:44 AM PDT by plain talk
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I didn’t know Rob Bell became Pope.


42 posted on 05/27/2013 8:35:51 AM PDT by Hayride
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To: DaveMSmith

Now, more than ever, we need to call to mind the words of Archbishop Charles Chaput:

We make a very serious mistake if we rely on media like the New York Times, Newsweek, CNN, or MSNBC for reliable news about religion. These news media simply don’t provide trustworthy information about religious faith—and sometimes they can’t provide it, either because of limited resources or because of their own editorial prejudices. These are secular operations focused on making a profit. They have very little sympathy for the Catholic faith, and quite a lot of aggressive skepticism toward any religious community that claims to preach and teach God’s truth.

Things of the Church reported in the secular media, particularly about the Holy Father, need to be viewed with the most jaundiced eye.

The Holy Father's words:

"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can. He must. Not can: must! Because he has this commandment within him. Instead, this ‘closing off’ that imagines that those outside, everyone, cannot do good is a wall that leads to war and also to what some people throughout history have conceived of: killing in the name of God. That we can kill in the name of God. And that, simply, is blasphemy. To say that you can kill in the name of God is blasphemy.”

“Instead,” the Pope continued, “the Lord has created us in His image and likeness, and has given us this commandment in the depths of our heart: do good and do not do evil”:

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

But, of course, does Irish Central mention this little ditty from Pope Pius IX, written all the way back in 1863:

There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.

Of course not.

But, still, there are those who believe NOTHING written by the MSM when it regards politics or culture but yet become instantly gullible when they read something regarding religion...particularly Catholicism.

It would be funny if it wasn't so pitiful.

43 posted on 05/27/2013 8:35:53 AM PDT by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good -- Leo XIII)
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To: vladimir998
The Pope didn’t preach universal salvation

Because the Pope understands the difference between “redemption” and “salvation” and that they are two completely different aspects in the process of receiving the “promise”, eternal life. Sadly many like to put the two in one little box and in doing so, they look through the glass darkly.

44 posted on 05/27/2013 8:36:36 AM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: Salvation
If you were baptized a Catholic — there you will ALWAYS be a Catholic

Where do I find that in His Scriptures?

45 posted on 05/27/2013 8:39:10 AM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: DaveMSmith

Although they are otherwise good, moral people they are still doomed to burn in a lake of fire for having the temerity to have been born outside of Catholicism or having chosen to remain so.

How do you quantify ‘moral’ outside of All Mighty God?


46 posted on 05/27/2013 8:39:27 AM PDT by TalBlack (Evil doesn't have a day job.)
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To: DaveMSmith

So the sequence of events is looking like this.

Pope Francis says something. —> The media promptly misinterprets it. —> Vatican corrects the media.

—>Media misinterprets the Vatican.

Same old dog and pony show by the drive by!


47 posted on 05/27/2013 8:41:08 AM PDT by Bayard
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To: Hoodat

Well, I have noticed the same thing in many unintellectual atheists, but even the many intellectual atheists I have met can eventually be reasoned into really being agnostic.

By its scientific and evidential credentials alone, atheism is a very flimsy belief that can’t stand up to much intense scrutiny. It requires one to violate one of the essential principles of mass conservation, “out of nothing, comes nothing”.

Of course, when you bring an atheist into the agnostic stage, he is ripe for spiritual enlightenment through Jesus Christ.


48 posted on 05/27/2013 8:42:26 AM PDT by Viennacon
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To: DaveMSmith

1. He died for all. All. All.
2. Many don’t care about (1), don’t believe it, don’t want Him, don’t think they need Him.
3. Nobody is conceived caring about (1). He changes unbelievers into believers through the bare pronouncement of (1) and all the facts (Scripture) around it.
4. Comparatively few have heard (1) without any added, man-made error, such as: you have to do extra stuff on top of Christ’s perfect work; He didn’t really die for all; you have to make a decision as though a dead person can wake himself up. Christians care about this (4) and thus try to get the word out, sometimes at their own peril and certainly in the face of mocking.
5. Since His Word (Scripture) is present in all of the Christian churches that teach the above man-made errors, there are Christians in all of those groups. God’s Word and Holy Spirit overcome the errors in spite of, not due to, their added, man-made doctrines. This does not excuse or erase the bad man made teaching; it’s still there and causes massive harm (refer to the arguments already on this page).
6. He does indeed choose us to be saved and go to heaven. He does not predetermine that anyone go to the other place. That is not His will. See (1). He died for All. He spilled His Holy innocent precious blood for all on the cross. He (Jesus) is God and Man. He will come again.


49 posted on 05/27/2013 8:42:58 AM PDT by old-ager
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To: DaveMSmith

This is Irish journalism at its best. The writer is being willfully obtuse in pretending not to know that papal infallibility is limited to very rare and specific pronouncements, not every sermon or talk the Pope ever gives. And this writer, who would have heard many times growing up that Jesus died to save sinners, is pretending that he never learned that those same sinners have to repent and believe to be saved.


50 posted on 05/27/2013 8:46:00 AM PDT by edwinland
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