Skip to comments.MHA: Mormon History Association: Preliminary Program [LDS discuss Mountain Meadows Massacre, etc.]
Posted on 06/09/2013 7:06:00 AM PDT by Colofornian
Mormon History Association
Layton, Utah, Conference June 6-9, 2013
Friday, June 7, 2013
Janiece Johnson (University of Leicester, England): In Search of Reform: The Mountain Meadows Massacre Prosecution and Solving the Mormon Problem
Patricia Lyn Scott (Salt Lake City, Utah): The Wickedness of this Place is Dreadful: A Presbyterian Teachers View of Fillmore, Utah, 1881-1885
Kenneth L. Alford (BYU-Provo): Saving Utah from Itself: The Grand Army of the Republics Anti-Polygamy Campaign
(Excerpt) Read more at mormonhistoryassociation.org ...
Interesting choice of words -- "The Mormon Problem"... the actual victims of the Mountain Meadows Massacre were 120 children, moms & dads who were Gentiles just passin' thru the state on their way to California.
'Twas Mormons who treated "Gentiles" like they had a "Gentile 'Problem'" ... a word made infamous by the Nazis re: "The Jewish 'Problem'"
Occasionally at this conference, you'll find historians willing to acknowledge some obscure historical realities -- especially as it took place in 19th century Utah...That seems to be the case with at least these two Friday presentations:
* Patricia Lyn Scott (Salt Lake City, Utah): The Wickedness of this Place is Dreadful: A Presbyterian Teachers View of Fillmore, Utah, 1881-1885
* Kenneth L. Alford (BYU-Provo): Saving Utah from Itself: The Grand Army of the Republics Anti-Polygamy Campaign
In the 1850s, the fledgling Republican party decided upon its social agenda: To take on the "twin relics of barbarism" -- polygamy and slavery.
The Republicans did exactly that! Even into the late 1890s. The state of Utah had elected a Democrat polygamist, B.H. Roberts.
Roberts had taken a third wife circa 1893...three years AFTER the supposed "declaration" that was to make new polygamy untenable in Mormonism. Yet Utah Mormon voters elected Roberts, anyway. (Roberts was to become a Mormon hierarchical "70" and historian of the church).
The question then rested with Congress: Would the 1898 Congress seat an open polygamist?
In pre-mass media America (other than newspapers), the country -- especially Republicans -- rallied to collect 7 million signatures on 28 banners that were to be presented to Congress asking Congress to not seat Roberts.
Congress sent Roberts packing, indicating that yes, Utah needed a LOT of help in being "saved" from itself!
|Mountain Meadows Massacre: First 9/11 terrorist act in USA||Mountain Meadows Massacre:MOUNTAIN MEADOWS MASSACRE HORROR CONTINUES 150 YEARS LATER + Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #133-134)||Mountain Meadow Massacre|
I’d rather go here:
MMM was far and away the worst atrocity ever committed by white Americans on white Americans.
Why? All these Lds historians gather to meet in Layton Utah...even have a "Mormon devotional" to end their gathering...and you'd "rather" head off from historical convos to some Mormon apologetical "lala land."
What does this say about your ready dismissal of peering into to your own group history?
Does that make you uncomfortable?
I put Mormons and Muslims in the same category
And both Mormons and Muslims put Christians in the same category:
Muslims deem us Christians as "infidels"...
Mormons deem us Christians as "apostates"...even concluding those of the founding fathers who were Christian to be faithless apostates.
well time will tell won’t it? But mormons and muslims are liars and Christians seek the Truth
Why was post #7 removed?
Why are seeming innocent posts — like #7 — being removed by your mod?
Colofornian ... you’ve been gone so long I thought that you had repented of your ways and accepted the Lord Jesus Christ in your life.
Alas, you have resorted to the same old inuendo, smears, distortions and outright constructions.
Please know that anti-mormonism is not a religion! And your obsession with it will not lead you to happiness as it will cancer your soul with hatred.
I wish to declare to all readers that I as a Latter Day Saint (Mormon) know that my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ has redeemed my soul from sin, and that through his blood and atonement I am clean and will be able to return and live with his father and mine, the eternal father in heaven, even almighty God. Amen.
ALL: How have Mormon leaders addressed subjects like redemption, the blood of Christ, and atonement?
|Questions Distinguishing 'Mormon' jesus from Jesus of Bible||Mormon 'Jesus'||Jesus of Bible|
|1. Was one of the purposes that Christ came to earth was so that He, Himself could become a "saved being?"||YES: The 'Mormon' Jesus: "Christ is a saved being (Lds "apostle" McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p 257) Modern revelation speaks of our Lord as he that ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth (D&C 88:6). Christ's rise to the throne of exaltation was preceded by his descent below all things. Only by submitting to the powers of demons and death and hell could he, in the resurrection, serve as our exemplar of a SAVED BEING... (McConkie and Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon, vol. 1, p. 234) Please also see... * McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p. 238 where he said the Mormon "jesus" "Needs salvation...Came to earth to work out His own salvation) and * McConkie, "The Seven Deadly Heresies,' in Speeches of the Year, 1980 [Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 1981] p. 78 where he said: "There was only one perfect being, the Lord Jesus. If men had to be perfect and live all of the law strictly, wholly, and completely, there would be only one saved person in eternity." [cited in Come, Follow Me: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide 1983 (1983) p. 72]||NO: I'm sorry, but the real Christ did not need to "work out His own salvation" as Lds apostles teach; in fact, He is THE Savior of the world: And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be THE Savior of the world. (1 John 4:14; cf. John 4:42).|
|2. Is Jesus but one 'savior'-'redeemer' among many?||YES: The "Jesus" of Brigham Young is one redeemer-savior among who knows how many? "He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. On every earth. How many earths are there?... Consequently every earth has its redeemer..." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, p. 71, 1870); cf. how Mormons name themselves as "saviors" -- numerous citations: Are Mormon people LITERAL saviors of dead Jews, others?||NO: "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be THE Savior of the world." (1 John 4:14); "They said to the woman, We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is THE Savior of the world. (John 4:42)|
|3. Were our sins 'atoned' for in the Garden of Gethesemane?||YES: * "It was in Gethsemane, on the slopes of the Mount of Olives, that Jesus made his perfect atonement by the shedding of his blood more so than on the cross." (BYU Professor Robert J. Matthews, A Bible! ABible! p. 282) * "It was there [Gethsemane] that the Savior paid the price for all the sorrows, sins and transgressions of every human being who ever lives or ever will live." (Seventy -- Second Quorum -- Wolfgang H. Paul, "Gratitude for the Atonement," Ensign, June 2007, p. 15)||NO: This Jesus didn't atone for sins by sweating blood in the garden; He did it on Calvary as the Bible proclaims in Col. 1:20: "And, having made peace through the blood of the cross..."|
|4. Was Jesus quite violent at the point of His death?||YES: Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith talked about "...a period of darkness at the death of Christ... "greater period of darkness and terrible punishment came upon the people in the Western Hemisphere because of their extreme wickedness..." (Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 3, p. 45, Deseret Book Co., 1960) Biblical Jesus came to see that they would have life (John 10:10); the Book of Mormon jesus came to bring down destruction (3 Nephi 9:12) and ensure that people would "howl" in that destruction (3 Nephi 8:23); The Biblical Jesus came to ensure people would have abundant life (John 10:10); the Book of Mormon jesus came to ensure people would be in "continual...mourning" (3 Nephi 8:23); The Biblical Jesus came to be the Light of the world (John 1:9; 8:12; 9:5); the Book of Mormon jesus came to yield complete darkness for three days (3 Nephi 8:23) NOTE: Please read 3 Nephi 8:8-->3 Nephi 9:12 for entire picture of overwhelming destruction caused by the Mormon 'Jesus': Cities were supposedly all either sunk by the Mormon jesus, or horrifically burned to death, plus for added emphasis, many great destructions have I caused to come upon this land... (3 Nephi 9:12)...All told, upon the Mormon jesus' death, he supposedly unleashes punishment. He levels 16 cities, killing 70,000-->90,000 people! [Note: Nothing of the kind is stated in the Bible!] Yes, there was judgment on the cross! Yes, it was terrible!
But the real Jesus absorbed all of that judgment and terror -- our very sins -- there on the cross! The sad result is that too many LDS & RLDS alike ONLY see the Book of Mormon Easter judgment upon people! The week that followed the Book of Mormon jesus resurrection, was a terrible 4 days or so! No wonder a tremendous aversion to the cross exists among Mormons due to Joseph Smith's version of post crucifixion events!
|NO: The Biblical Jesus came to see that they would have life (John 10:10), to ensure people would have abundant life (John 10:10), and to be the Light of the world (John 1:9; 8:12; 9:5)|
|5. Did Jesus really die for our personal sins or our rebellious nature?||NO: Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland though claims forgiveness of personal sins applies to only to members of the Mormon church: From this Holland article: Latter-day Saints believe that other aspects of Christ's gift are conditional upon obedience and diligence in keeping God's commandments. For example, while members of the human family are freely and universally given a reprieve from Adam's sin through no effort or action of their own, they are not freely and universally given a reprieve of their own sins unless they pledge faith in Christ, repent of those sins, are baptized in his name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and confirmation into Christ's church... Source: Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland: ATONEMENT OF JESUS CHRIST - Mormon- (OPEN) The Mormon 2nd article of faith emphasizes the Mormon doctrine of men being subject to punishment for their own sins; this Mormon "jesus" doesn't serve as our Substitute [LDS second article of faith: "We believe that men will be punished for their OWN sins, and not for Adam's transgression."] The Mormon second article of faith, therefore, is a half-truth and a false gospel. Men who do not place their faith in the true Jesus Christ will indeed die in their sins; beyond that, Jesus' blood covers the sin of others. The flip side of the Mormon 2nd article of faith is that the Mormon jesus was simply punished for Adam's sin to release us to "free agency."||YES, BOTH: "...the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7) Other Biblical verses rejected: 1 John 2:2; 1 Peter 2:24; Heb. 1:3|
|6. Is Christ's powerful atoning blood diluded to 'anemic' levels?||YES: Although the Book of Mormon makes some solid statements about Christ's powerful atoning blood (see, for example Mosiah 3:18), Mormon leaders wind up accusing Jesus of having rather anemic blood; yes, Lds "scriptures" highlight His blood as one which cleanses from unrighteousness (Alma 7:14, Book of Mormon; D&C 76:41, Doctrines & Covenants; Moses 6:59, Pearl of Great Price) -- unfortunately such ultimate cleansing is rooted solely on ability to keep commandments: "That by keeping the commandments, they MIGHT be washed and cleansed from all their sins." (D&C 76:52). Other related statements to diluting cleansing power of Christ's blood: * "Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf. This is scriptural doctrine, and is taught in all the standard works of the Church." (Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith, "Doctrines of Salvation, vol.1 , p. 135-136) * "Man may commit certain grievous sins--according to his light and knowledge--that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be save he must make sacrifice of his own life to atone-- so far as in his power lies -- for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail." (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 93). So much for the power of Christ's blood to cover sins per Mormonism! * "Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much that is believed and taught on this subject, however, is such utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose one's salvation. Many go so far, for instance, as to pretend, at least, to believe that if we confess Christ with our lips and avow that we accept him as our personal Savior, we are thereby saved. His blood, without other act than mere belief, they say, makes us clean." (Lds Tract titled, "What the Mormons Think of Christ, p. 31) * "There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man and woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants" (Brigham Young, March 16, 1856, Journal of Discourses, 3:247)||NO: "...the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7); "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood" (Rev. 1:5); "... with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation."(Rev. 5:9); "they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Rev. 7:14); "And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood." (Heb. 13:12); "Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus..." (Heb. 10:19); "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of Gods grace" (Eph. 1:7); Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from Gods wrath through him!" (Rom. 5:9)|
|7. Is Jesus as unique as the Bible makes Him out to be?||NO: Due to unique Lds doctrine that (a) we were all eternal; (b) we were all spirit babies just like Jesus; (c) their teaching that Jesus was a "saved being" -- in need of "salvation"; (d) all Mormons become "saviors" via baptizing dead people; (e) all temple Mormons become gods. (f) and SOME Lds leaders' teachings that Jesus is not deserving of worship. The Mormon "jesus" upon spirit birth was not unique other than his spirit birth order. He's just one god among perhaps millions of Mormon "gods." (Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball not all that long ago told 225,000 gathered that perhaps "225,000 gods" were among them then!!!)||YES: 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of THE ONLY begotten Son of God. (John 3:18) Jesus is either "the ONLY begotten Son" from eternity -- not one of MANY begotten spirit sons in some pre-existence -- or He is not unique; and if Lds say "begotten" references such new "condition" Jesus acquired upon conception in Mary's womb, how is it that Jesus suddenly became a Son and the Father suddenly became a Father -- unless it's true that Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie & Lds "prophet" Brigham Young taught that the paternity was a literal one -- that the Father came down and had sex with Mary!!!|
|8. Can Jesus be prayed to directly?||NO: Yet... And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and God when Jesus had thus prayed unto the Father, he came unto his disciples, and behold, they did still continue, without ceasing, to pray unto him And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him And Jesus said unto them: Pray on; nevertheless they did not cease to pray. (3 Nephi 19:18, 24-26, Book of Mormon)||YES Stephen, Acts prayed directly to Jesus! While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." (Acts 7:59)|
Christians were murdered by the Mormons for being Christians in Utah Territory
the blood thirsty tenets by Brigham Young are still part of the Mormon religious instructions..
they were never changed or condemned by any Mormon ‘profit’
Yes well this thread is a response to the anti-Christians who murdered Christians just because those Christians were not Mormons...
Sandy fear not, before you complain, I was present at the anti-Christian, anti-American doings in Manchester, TN this week also...
I know thats concerned you in the past
The TENETS are challenge-able...otherwise, you Mormons would not be able to challenge Christianity without becoming "anti-Christians."
Actually this thread exposes the LDS smears, distortions and false constructions propagated over the centuries by the Mormon belief system.
Did you see all the documented facts in post #14?
Do you believe all of those facts presented from LDS writings, or do you believe what the Bible says in the right side column?
Both can't be believed without being double minded.
Thank you for posting on this thread.
It is safe behind the lies of your faith, it builds up a defense against the doubts that lurk down deep where God is trying to get in...
Are you saying the Mountain Meadows Massacre did not happen? You speak of distortions, please point them out.
Milk before meat. Keep in mind that those horrible people were agitating the Mountain Meadows Mormons by having inexcusably covetous things like pocket watches and eastern finery.
What is the 'problem'?
MORMONs ate the bones?
Top level of MORMON heaven?
District; do YOU have a Temple Recommend®?
The founder of LDSism already has done that...
Mormonism also calls Jews...
wait for it...
What a hoot!
It’s there now...
maybe a glitch in transmission??
Then a Truthful Mormon like yourself should be able to point these things out to the jury; right?
See, District: THIS is how a person with a Temple Recommend speaks - positive about his fate.
Only about 15% or so of all MORMONs will enjoy the privilege of actually BEING where the Father dwells in their heaven.
OBSESSION is in that OTHER thread!
LOVE is in THIS one!!
Doncha just LOVE it!!?
If THIS happens; I'll have to move teppe from the ACCUSER column to the FACTer column.
and dont forget the fancy carriage that Brigham Young stole and used for himself...
and those children that were kidnapped and held for ransom for 2 years that Brigham Young only returned after he had been paid $10,000 1859 money...
and all the blood horses and the cattle...
Gosh such temptations...
Oh, don't be coy. I bet you were hoping the current incarnation of the Destroying Angel had paid Colofornian a visit.