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MHA: Mormon History Association: Preliminary Program [LDS discuss Mountain Meadows Massacre, etc.]
MormonHistoryAssociation.org ^

Posted on 06/09/2013 7:06:00 AM PDT by Colofornian

MHA

Mormon History Association

Preliminary Program

Layton, Utah, Conference June 6-9, 2013

SNIP

Friday, June 7, 2013

SNIP

Janiece Johnson (University of Leicester, England): In Search of Reform: The Mountain Meadows Massacre Prosecution and Solving the Mormon Problem

SNIP

Patricia Lyn Scott (Salt Lake City, Utah): “The Wickedness of this Place is Dreadful”: A Presbyterian Teacher’s View of Fillmore, Utah, 1881-1885

SNIP

Kenneth L. Alford (BYU-Provo): Saving Utah from Itself: The Grand Army of the Republic’s Anti-Polygamy Campaign

SNIP

(Excerpt) Read more at mormonhistoryassociation.org ...


TOPICS: Current Events; History; Other Christian; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: antipolygamy; inman; lds; mormonism; mountainmeadows
From the speakers' presentation list from last Friday: Janiece Johnson (University of Leicester, England): In Search of Reform: The Mountain Meadows Massacre Prosecution and Solving the Mormon Problem

Interesting choice of words -- "The Mormon Problem"... the actual victims of the Mountain Meadows Massacre were 120 children, moms & dads who were Gentiles just passin' thru the state on their way to California.

'Twas Mormons who treated "Gentiles" like they had a "Gentile 'Problem'" ... a word made infamous by the Nazis re: "The Jewish 'Problem'"

Occasionally at this conference, you'll find historians willing to acknowledge some obscure historical realities -- especially as it took place in 19th century Utah...That seems to be the case with at least these two Friday presentations:

* Patricia Lyn Scott (Salt Lake City, Utah): “The Wickedness of this Place is Dreadful”: A Presbyterian Teacher’s View of Fillmore, Utah, 1881-1885
* Kenneth L. Alford (BYU-Provo): Saving Utah from Itself: The Grand Army of the Republic’s Anti-Polygamy Campaign

In the 1850s, the fledgling Republican party decided upon its social agenda: To take on the "twin relics of barbarism" -- polygamy and slavery.

The Republicans did exactly that! Even into the late 1890s. The state of Utah had elected a Democrat polygamist, B.H. Roberts.

Roberts had taken a third wife circa 1893...three years AFTER the supposed "declaration" that was to make new polygamy untenable in Mormonism. Yet Utah Mormon voters elected Roberts, anyway. (Roberts was to become a Mormon hierarchical "70" and historian of the church).

The question then rested with Congress: Would the 1898 Congress seat an open polygamist?

In pre-mass media America (other than newspapers), the country -- especially Republicans -- rallied to collect 7 million signatures on 28 banners that were to be presented to Congress asking Congress to not seat Roberts.

Congress sent Roberts packing, indicating that yes, Utah needed a LOT of help in being "saved" from itself!

1 posted on 06/09/2013 7:06:00 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: All
Mountain Meadows Massacre: First 9/11 terrorist act in USA Mountain Meadows Massacre:“MOUNTAIN MEADOWS MASSACRE HORROR CONTINUES 150 YEARS LATER” + Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #133-134) Mountain Meadow Massacre

2 posted on 06/09/2013 7:07:23 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

Interesting


3 posted on 06/09/2013 7:11:17 AM PDT by svcw (If you are dead when your heart stops, why aren't you alive when it starts.)
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To: Colofornian; svcw

I’d rather go here:

http://www.fairblog.org/2013/04/17/mormon-fair-cast-143-responding-to-anti-mormons/


4 posted on 06/09/2013 7:32:13 AM PDT by District13 (I miss my country!)
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To: District13

MMM was far and away the worst atrocity ever committed by white Americans on white Americans.


5 posted on 06/09/2013 7:34:25 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: District13; All
I’d rather go here:

Why? All these Lds historians gather to meet in Layton Utah...even have a "Mormon devotional" to end their gathering...and you'd "rather" head off from historical convos to some Mormon apologetical "lala land."

What does this say about your ready dismissal of peering into to your own group history?

6 posted on 06/09/2013 7:39:11 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: District13
Why would you rather go to another source beyond these Lds historians?

Does that make you uncomfortable?

7 posted on 06/09/2013 7:55:26 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

I put Mormons and Muslims in the same category


8 posted on 06/09/2013 8:03:04 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: yldstrk; All
I put Mormons and Muslims in the same category

And both Mormons and Muslims put Christians in the same category:

Muslims deem us Christians as "infidels"...
Mormons deem us Christians as "apostates"...even concluding those of the founding fathers who were Christian to be faithless apostates.

9 posted on 06/09/2013 8:04:51 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

well time will tell won’t it? But mormons and muslims are liars and Christians seek the Truth


10 posted on 06/09/2013 8:05:58 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: moder_ator

Why was post #7 removed?


11 posted on 06/09/2013 8:06:06 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Jim Robinson

Why are seeming innocent posts — like #7 — being removed by your mod?


12 posted on 06/09/2013 8:07:28 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

Colofornian ... you’ve been gone so long I thought that you had repented of your ways and accepted the Lord Jesus Christ in your life.

Alas, you have resorted to the same old inuendo, smears, distortions and outright constructions.

Please know that anti-mormonism is not a religion! And your obsession with it will not lead you to happiness as it will cancer your soul with hatred.

I wish to declare to all readers that I as a Latter Day Saint (Mormon) know that my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ has redeemed my soul from sin, and that through his blood and atonement I am clean and will be able to return and live with his father and mine, the eternal father in heaven, even almighty God. Amen.


13 posted on 06/09/2013 8:14:02 AM PDT by teppe (... for my God ... for my Family ... for my Country ....)
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To: teppe; All
I wish to declare to all readers that I as a Latter Day Saint (Mormon) know that my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ has redeemed my soul from sin, and that through his blood and atonement I am clean and will be able to return and live with his father and mine, the eternal father in heaven, even almighty God.

ALL: How have Mormon leaders addressed subjects like redemption, the blood of Christ, and atonement?

CHART

(With Documentation)

Questions Distinguishing 'Mormon' jesus from Jesus of Bible Mormon 'Jesus' Jesus of Bible
1. Was one of the purposes that Christ came to earth was so that He, Himself could become a "saved being?" YES: The 'Mormon' Jesus: "Christ is a saved being” (Lds "apostle" McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p 257) “Modern revelation speaks of our Lord as he that ‘ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth‘ (D&C 88:6). Christ's rise to the throne of exaltation was preceded by his descent below all things. Only by submitting to the powers of demons and death and hell could he, in the resurrection, serve as our exemplar of a SAVED BEING...(McConkie and Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon, vol. 1, p. 234) Please also see... * McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p. 238 where he said the Mormon "jesus" "Needs salvation...Came to earth to work out His own salvation) and * McConkie, "The Seven Deadly Heresies,' in Speeches of the Year, 1980 [Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 1981] p. 78 where he said: "There was only one perfect being, the Lord Jesus. If men had to be perfect and live all of the law strictly, wholly, and completely, there would be only one saved person in eternity." [cited in Come, Follow Me: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide 1983 (1983) p. 72] NO: I'm sorry, but the real Christ did not need to "work out His own salvation" as Lds apostles teach; in fact, He is THE Savior of the world: And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be THE Savior of the world. (1 John 4:14; cf. John 4:42).
2. Is Jesus but one 'savior'-'redeemer' among many? YES: The "Jesus" of Brigham Young is one redeemer-savior among who knows how many? "He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. On every earth. How many earths are there?... Consequently every earth has its redeemer..." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, p. 71, 1870); cf. how Mormons name themselves as "saviors" -- numerous citations: Are Mormon people LITERAL saviors of dead Jews, others? NO: "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be THE Savior of the world." (1 John 4:14); "They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is THE Savior of the world.” (John 4:42)
3. Were our sins 'atoned' for in the Garden of Gethesemane? YES: * "It was in Gethsemane, on the slopes of the Mount of Olives, that Jesus made his perfect atonement by the shedding of his blood more so than on the cross." (BYU Professor Robert J. Matthews, A Bible! ABible! p. 282) * "It was there [Gethsemane] that the Savior paid the price for all the sorrows, sins and transgressions of every human being who ever lives or ever will live." (Seventy -- Second Quorum -- Wolfgang H. Paul, "Gratitude for the Atonement," Ensign, June 2007, p. 15) NO: This Jesus didn't atone for sins by sweating blood in the garden; He did it on Calvary as the Bible proclaims in Col. 1:20: "And, having made peace through the blood of the cross..."
4. Was Jesus quite violent at the point of His death? YES: Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith talked about "...a period of darkness at the death of Christ... "greater period of darkness and terrible punishment came upon the people in the Western Hemisphere because of their extreme wickedness..." (Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 3, p. 45, Deseret Book Co., 1960) Biblical Jesus came to see that they would have life (John 10:10); the Book of Mormon jesus came to bring down destruction (3 Nephi 9:12) and ensure that people would "howl" in that destruction (3 Nephi 8:23); The Biblical Jesus came to ensure people would have abundant life (John 10:10); the Book of Mormon jesus came to ensure people would be in "continual...mourning" (3 Nephi 8:23); The Biblical Jesus came to be the Light of the world (John 1:9; 8:12; 9:5); the Book of Mormon jesus came to yield complete darkness for three days (3 Nephi 8:23) NOTE: Please read 3 Nephi 8:8-->3 Nephi 9:12 for entire picture of overwhelming destruction caused by the Mormon 'Jesus': Cities were supposedly all either sunk by the Mormon jesus, or horrifically burned to death, plus for added emphasis, ”many great destructions have I caused to come upon this land...” (3 Nephi 9:12)...All told, upon the Mormon jesus' death, he supposedly unleashes punishment. He levels 16 cities, killing 70,000-->90,000 people! [Note: Nothing of the kind is stated in the Bible!] Yes, there was judgment on the cross! Yes, it was terrible!
But the real Jesus absorbed all of that judgment and terror -- our very sins -- there on the cross! The sad result is that too many LDS & RLDS alike ONLY see the Book of Mormon Easter judgment upon people! The week that followed the Book of Mormon jesus’ resurrection, was a terrible 4 days or so! No wonder a tremendous aversion to the cross exists among Mormons due to Joseph Smith's version of post crucifixion events!
NO: The Biblical Jesus came to see that they would have life (John 10:10), to ensure people would have abundant life (John 10:10), and to be the Light of the world (John 1:9; 8:12; 9:5)
5. Did Jesus really die for our personal sins or our rebellious nature? NO: Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland though claims forgiveness of personal sins applies to only to members of the Mormon church: From this Holland article: Latter-day Saints believe that other aspects of Christ's gift are conditional upon obedience and diligence in keeping God's commandments. For example, while members of the human family are freely and universally given a reprieve from Adam's sin through no effort or action of their own, they are not freely and universally given a reprieve of their own sins unless they pledge faith in Christ, repent of those sins, are baptized in his name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and confirmation into Christ's church... Source: Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland: ATONEMENT OF JESUS CHRIST - Mormon- (OPEN) The Mormon 2nd article of faith emphasizes the Mormon doctrine of men being subject to punishment for their own sins; this Mormon "jesus" doesn't serve as our Substitute [LDS second article of faith: "We believe that men will be punished for their OWN sins, and not for Adam's transgression."] The Mormon second article of faith, therefore, is a half-truth and a false gospel. Men who do not place their faith in the true Jesus Christ will indeed die in their sins; beyond that, Jesus' blood covers the sin of others. The flip side of the Mormon 2nd article of faith is that the Mormon jesus was simply punished for Adam's sin to release us to "free agency." YES, BOTH: "...the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7) Other Biblical verses rejected: 1 John 2:2; 1 Peter 2:24; Heb. 1:3
6. Is Christ's powerful atoning blood diluded to 'anemic' levels? YES: Although the Book of Mormon makes some solid statements about Christ's powerful atoning blood (see, for example Mosiah 3:18), Mormon leaders wind up accusing Jesus of having rather anemic blood; yes, Lds "scriptures" highlight His blood as one which cleanses from unrighteousness (Alma 7:14, Book of Mormon; D&C 76:41, Doctrines & Covenants; Moses 6:59, Pearl of Great Price) -- unfortunately such ultimate cleansing is rooted solely on ability to keep commandments: "That by keeping the commandments, they MIGHT be washed and cleansed from all their sins." (D&C 76:52). Other related statements to diluting cleansing power of Christ's blood: * "Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf. This is scriptural doctrine, and is taught in all the standard works of the Church." (Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith, "Doctrines of Salvation, vol.1 , p. 135-136) * "Man may commit certain grievous sins--according to his light and knowledge--that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be save he must make sacrifice of his own life to atone-- so far as in his power lies -- for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail." (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 93). So much for the power of Christ's blood to cover sins per Mormonism! * "Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much that is believed and taught on this subject, however, is such utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose one's salvation. Many go so far, for instance, as to pretend, at least, to believe that if we confess Christ with our lips and avow that we accept him as our personal Savior, we are thereby saved. His blood, without other act than mere belief, they say, makes us clean." (Lds Tract titled, "What the Mormons Think of Christ, p. 31) * "There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man and woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants" (Brigham Young, March 16, 1856, Journal of Discourses, 3:247) NO: "...the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7); "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood" (Rev. 1:5); "... with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation."(Rev. 5:9); "they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Rev. 7:14); "And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood." (Heb. 13:12); "Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus..." (Heb. 10:19); "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace" (Eph. 1:7); Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" (Rom. 5:9)
7. Is Jesus as unique as the Bible makes Him out to be? NO: Due to unique Lds doctrine that (a) we were all eternal; (b) we were all spirit babies just like Jesus; (c) their teaching that Jesus was a "saved being" -- in need of "salvation"; (d) all Mormons become "saviors" via baptizing dead people; (e) all temple Mormons become gods. (f) and SOME Lds leaders' teachings that Jesus is not deserving of worship. The Mormon "jesus" upon spirit birth was not unique other than his spirit birth order. He's just one god among perhaps millions of Mormon "gods." (Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball not all that long ago told 225,000 gathered that perhaps "225,000 gods" were among them then!!!) YES: 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of THE ONLY begotten Son of God. (John 3:18) Jesus is either "the ONLY begotten Son" from eternity -- not one of MANY begotten spirit sons in some pre-existence -- or He is not unique; and if Lds say "begotten" references such new "condition" Jesus acquired upon conception in Mary's womb, how is it that Jesus suddenly became a Son and the Father suddenly became a Father -- unless it's true that Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie & Lds "prophet" Brigham Young taught that the paternity was a literal one -- that the Father came down and had sex with Mary!!!
8. Can Jesus be prayed to directly? NO: Yet... “And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and God…when Jesus had thus prayed unto the Father, he came unto his disciples, and behold, they did still continue, without ceasing, to pray unto him…And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him…And Jesus said unto them: Pray on; nevertheless they did not cease to pray.” (3 Nephi 19:18, 24-26, Book of Mormon) YES Stephen, Acts prayed directly to Jesus! While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." (Acts 7:59)

14 posted on 06/09/2013 8:20:53 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

Yes

Christians were murdered by the Mormons for being Christians in Utah Territory

the blood thirsty tenets by Brigham Young are still part of the Mormon religious instructions..

they were never changed or condemned by any Mormon ‘profit’

Beheadings ???

Yeppers...

9/11 ???

Yeppers


15 posted on 06/09/2013 9:59:15 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: District13

Yes well this thread is a response to the anti-Christians who murdered Christians just because those Christians were not Mormons...

Sandy fear not, before you complain, I was present at the anti-Christian, anti-American doings in Manchester, TN this week also...

I know thats concerned you in the past

“What about...”


16 posted on 06/09/2013 10:04:12 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: teppe; All
Teppe, no "hatred" toward Mormons; but certainly of an opposing bent to MormonISM.

The TENETS are challenge-able...otherwise, you Mormons would not be able to challenge Christianity without becoming "anti-Christians."

17 posted on 06/09/2013 10:36:04 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: teppe; Colofornian
...you have resorted to the same old inuendo, smears, distortions and outright constructions.

Actually this thread exposes the LDS smears, distortions and false constructions propagated over the centuries by the Mormon belief system.

Did you see all the documented facts in post #14?

Do you believe all of those facts presented from LDS writings, or do you believe what the Bible says in the right side column?

Both can't be believed without being double minded.

Thank you for posting on this thread.

18 posted on 06/09/2013 11:02:40 AM PDT by Syncro ("So?")
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To: District13

It is safe behind the lies of your faith, it builds up a defense against the doubts that lurk down deep where God is trying to get in...


19 posted on 06/09/2013 2:40:50 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: teppe

Are you saying the Mountain Meadows Massacre did not happen? You speak of distortions, please point them out.

I know...


20 posted on 06/09/2013 2:42:20 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: Colofornian

Milk before meat. Keep in mind that those horrible people were agitating the Mountain Meadows Mormons by having inexcusably covetous things like pocket watches and eastern finery.


21 posted on 06/09/2013 5:35:57 PM PDT by OldNewYork (Biden '13. Impeach now.)
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To: Colofornian
Janiece Johnson (University of Leicester, England): In Search of Reform: The Mountain Meadows Massacre Prosecution and Solving the Mormon Problem

What is the 'problem'?

MORMONs ate the bones?

22 posted on 06/09/2013 7:26:20 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: District13
I’d rather go here:

Where?

Top level of MORMON heaven?

District; do YOU have a Temple Recommend®?

23 posted on 06/09/2013 7:27:54 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: yldstrk
I put Mormons and Muslims in the same category

The founder of LDSism already has done that...


“I Will Be a Second Mohammed”

In the heat of the Missouri “Mormon War” of 1838, Joseph Smith made the following claim, “I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’ ”[1]

It is most interesting that a self-proclaimed Christian prophet would liken himself to Mohammed, the founder of Islam. His own comparison invites us to take a closer look as well. And when we do, we find some striking—and troubling—parallels. Consider the following.

  • Mohammed and Joseph Smith both had humble beginnings. Neither had formal religious connections or upbringing, and both were relatively uneducated. Both founded new religions by creating their own scriptures. In fact, followers of both prophets claim these scriptures are miracles since their authors were the most simple and uneducated of men.[2]

  • Both prophets claim of having angel visitations, and of receiving divine revelation to restore pure religion to the earth again. Mohammed was told that both Jews and Christians had long since corrupted their scriptures and religion. In like manner, Joseph Smith was told that all of Christianity had become corrupt, and that consequently the Bible itself was no longer reliable. In both cases, this corruption required a complete restoration of both scripture and religion. Nothing which preceded either prophet could be relied upon any longer. Both prophets claim they were used of God to restore eternal truths which once existed on earth, but had been lost due to human corruption.

  • Both prophets created new scripture which borrowed heavily from the Bible, but with a substantially new “spin.” In his Koran, Mohammed appropriates a number of Biblical themes and characters—but he changes the complete sense of many passages, claiming to “correct” the Bible. In so doing he changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place. In like manner, Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon, much of which is plagiarized directly from the King James Bible. Interestingly, the Book of Mormon claims that this same Bible has been substantially corrupted and is therefore unreliable. In addition, Joseph Smith went so far as to actually create his own version of the Bible itself, the “Inspired Version,” in which he both adds and deletes significant portions of text, claiming he is “correcting” it. In so doing he also changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place.

  • As a part of their new scriptural “spin,” both prophets saw themselves as prophesied in scripture, and both saw themselves as a continuation of a long line of Biblical prophets. Mohammed saw himself as a continuation of the ministry of Moses and Jesus. Joseph Smith saw himself as a successor to Enoch, Melchizedek, Joseph and Moses. Joseph Smith actually wrote himself into his own version of the Bible—by name.

  • Both prophets held up their own scripture as superior to the Bible. Mohammed claimed that the Koran was a perfect copy of the original which was in heaven. The Koran is therefore held to be absolutely perfect, far superior to the Bible and superceding it. In like manner, Joseph Smith also made the following claim. “I told the Brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book.”[3]

  • Despite their claim that the Bible was corrupt, both prophets admonished their followers to adhere to its teachings. An obvious contradiction, this led to selective acceptance of some portions and wholesale rejection of others. As a result, the Bible is accepted by both groups of followers only to the extent that it agrees with their prophet’s own superior revelation.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith taught that true salvation was to be found only in their respective religions. Those who would not accept their message were considered “infidels,” pagans or Gentiles. In so doing, both prophets became the enemy of genuine Christianity, and have led many people away from the Christ of the Bible.

  • Both prophets encountered fierce opposition to their new religions and had to flee from town to town because of threats on their lives. Both retaliated to this opposition by forming their own militias. Both ultimately set up their own towns as model societies.

  • Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith left unclear instructions about their successors. The majority of Mohammed’s followers, Sunni Muslims, believe they were to elect their new leader, whereas the minority, Shiite Muslims, look to Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib, whom they consider Divinely appointed, as the rightful successor to Muhammad, and the first imam. (Ali was the cousin and son-in-law of the Islamic prophet Muhammad). Similarly, the majority of Joseph Smith's followers, Mormons, believed their next prophet should have been the existing leader of their quorum of twelve apostles, whereas the minority, RLDS, believed Joseph Smith's own son should have been their next prophet. Differences on this issue, and many others, have created substantial tension between these rival groups of each prophet.

  • Mohammed taught that Jesus was just another of a long line of human prophets, of which he was the last. He taught that he was superior to Christ and superceded Him. In comparison, Joseph Smith also made the following claim.

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”[4] In light of these parallels, perhaps Joseph Smith's claim to be a second Mohammed unwittingly became his most genuine prophecy of all.


[1] Joseph Smith made this statement at the conclusion of a speech in the public square at Far West, Missouri on October 14, 1838. This particular quote is documented in Fawn M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History, second edition, (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), p. 230–231. Fawn Brodie’s footnote regarding this speech contains valuable information, and follows. “Except where noted, all the details of this chapter [16] are taken from the History of the [Mormon] Church. This speech, however, was not recorded there, and the report given here is based upon the accounts of seven men. See the affidavits of T.B. Marsh, Orson Hyde, George M. Hinkle, John Corrill, W.W. Phelps, Samson Avard, and Reed Peck in Correspondence, Orders, etc., pp. 57–9, 97–129. The Marsh and Hyde account, which was made on October 24, is particularly important. Part of it was reproduced in History of the [Mormon] Church, Vol. III, p. 167. See also the Peck manuscript, p. 80. Joseph himself barely mentioned the speech in his history; see Vol. III, p. 162.”

[2] John Ankerberg & John Weldon, The Facts on Islam, (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 1998), pp.8–9. Eric Johnson, Joseph Smith & Muhammed, (El Cajon, CA: Mormonism Research Ministry, 1998), pp. 6–7.

[3] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.4, pp.461.

[4] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.6, pp.408–409.




24 posted on 06/09/2013 7:29:23 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian
Mormons deem us Christians as "apostates"...even concluding those of the founding fathers who were Christian to be faithless apostates.

That's nothing!!

Mormonism also calls Jews...

wait for it...

GENTILES!!!!



What a hoot!

25 posted on 06/09/2013 7:30:37 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian

Huh?

It’s there now...

maybe a glitch in transmission??


26 posted on 06/09/2013 7:31:32 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: teppe
Alas, you have resorted to the same old inuendo, smears, distortions and outright constructions.

Then a Truthful Mormon like yourself should be able to point these things out to the jury; right?

27 posted on 06/09/2013 7:32:34 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: teppe; District13
I wish to declare to all readers that I as a Latter Day Saint (Mormon) know that my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ has redeemed my soul from sin, and that through his blood and atonement I am clean and will be able to return and live with his father and mine, the eternal father in heaven, even almighty God. Amen.

See, District: THIS is how a person with a Temple Recommend speaks - positive about his fate.


Only about 15% or so of all MORMONs will enjoy the privilege of actually BEING where the Father dwells in their heaven.

28 posted on 06/09/2013 7:37:54 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: teppe
And your obsession with it will not lead you to happiness as it will cancer your soul with hatred.

Wait!

OBSESSION is in that OTHER thread!


LOVE is in THIS one!!



Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

29 posted on 06/09/2013 7:39:23 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Tennessee Nana
Beheadings ???


History!!

Doncha just LOVE it!!?


 

The gruesome be headings of some 40 Ute corpses in 1850, heads stacked in boxes,
and hung by their long hair from the eves of buildings at Fort Utah,
 has long been ignored, “You didn’t see the Indians beheading the Mormons.”
 
-- Historian Robert Carter

30 posted on 06/09/2013 7:42:15 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ejonesie22
You speak of distortions, please point them out.

If THIS happens; I'll have to move teppe from the ACCUSER column to the FACTer column.

31 posted on 06/09/2013 7:43:30 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: OldNewYork

and dont forget the fancy carriage that Brigham Young stole and used for himself...

and those children that were kidnapped and held for ransom for 2 years that Brigham Young only returned after he had been paid $10,000 1859 money...

and all the blood horses and the cattle...

Gosh such temptations...


32 posted on 06/09/2013 8:28:34 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana

33 posted on 06/10/2013 5:01:04 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: teppe

Oh, don't be coy. I bet you were hoping the current incarnation of the Destroying Angel had paid Colofornian a visit.

34 posted on 06/12/2013 2:23:11 AM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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