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Ask the Apologist: Answering Shotgun Anti-Mormonism
FAIR Defending Mormonism ^ | 2013 | Allen Wyatt

Posted on 06/09/2013 7:50:35 AM PDT by District13

Q. My co-worker, who is a pastor in a local church, gave me a whole bunch of handouts that he received at a training session. (The session was in preparation for a temple open house in our area.) He gave them to me and asked me to respond, but I don’t know where to start.

A. (by Allen L. Wyatt) Thank you for sending the materials so I could look at them. They are the normal “shotgun approach” that we see among many anti-Mormons. They take everything they can, load it into a series of documents, and then fling it at people hoping that something will stick. The documents you received cover Joseph Smith, prophets, grace vs. works, the Book of Mormon, the endowment, blacks and the priesthood, racism, the First Vision, polygamy, the place of faith, whitewashing history, scholarship and the Church, the endowment, unrighteous dominion, etc.

(Excerpt) Read more at fairlds.org ...


TOPICS: Apologetics; Current Events; Other Christian; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: christian; inman; lds; mormon
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Quoting from the article: "I wish you success in dealing with the anti-Mormons. Overall, they are yapping dogs, nipping at the wheels of the Lord’s wagons as they roll forward. And go forward, they will–but it is much better if they can go forward without casualties due to those who lie in wait to deceive."
1 posted on 06/09/2013 7:50:35 AM PDT by District13
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To: District13

Bumping before the assault begins.


2 posted on 06/09/2013 7:52:40 AM PDT by District13 (I miss my country!)
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To: District13; laotzu

Historical or Hysterical: Anti-Mormons and Documentary Sources

http://www.fairlds.org/fair-conferences/2004-fair-conference/2004-historical-or-hysterical-anti-mormons-and-documentary-sources


3 posted on 06/09/2013 7:55:51 AM PDT by District13 (I miss my country!)
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To: District13

My experience .... Anti Mormons will perform any inuendo, any distortion, any smear .... and any construction to destroy LDS beleifs.

Thier main motto seems to be ‘it is allright to engage in anti-christian behavior to expose an anti Chrstian religion’

But the problem is that the anti-Christian religion they describe and propose to destroy does not exist and all that is left is thier anti-christian behavior.

So what worse? To accuse someone of being anti-christian, or to prove yourself to be anti-christian by your behavior?


4 posted on 06/09/2013 8:02:40 AM PDT by teppe (... for my God ... for my Family ... for my Country ....)
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To: District13; Lancey Howard; Sherman Logan; presently no screen name

Bump to defend the faith


5 posted on 06/09/2013 8:03:43 AM PDT by District13 (I miss my country!)
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To: teppe

Thank you for Post #4. I have often felt personally attacked when they go after my Church but somehow they get away with it. It’s like Mormons are deemed to be unworthy of “Christian” respect and decency.


6 posted on 06/09/2013 8:07:26 AM PDT by District13 (I miss my country!)
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To: AppyPappy

FYI


7 posted on 06/09/2013 8:08:24 AM PDT by District13 (I miss my country!)
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To: teppe

I have indeed seen the behavior you describe.

However, please don’t lump all critics of Mormonism into the same bunch. Some of us are interested only in the facts, and strive to operate with courtesy.


8 posted on 06/09/2013 8:09:25 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: District13

The Judge who ruled against Sheriff Joe Arpaio, Murray Snow is a big-wig Mormon who did his missionary work in Mexico and speaks fluent Spanish and made an absolute mockery of the law by declaring Arpaio’s enforcement of the law “racial profiling” against a new race Snow called “Latinos”. Snow is disgusting and un-American - and a major league Mormon - AND his father is high up in the LDS leadership. The LDS has utterly disgraced itself with the Utah Compact and pimping of illegal alien amnesty.
It is time to consider a boycott of all LDS-owned businesses and entities until they stop protecting illegal alien lawbreakers and endorsing amnesty.


9 posted on 06/09/2013 8:09:57 AM PDT by montag813
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To: teppe
...and all that is left is thier anti-christian behavior

Well said. Salute.

10 posted on 06/09/2013 8:13:21 AM PDT by laotzu
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To: montag813
It is time to consider a boycott of all LDS-owned businesses..

We must build a list. Yes...we must start with a list.

11 posted on 06/09/2013 8:16:56 AM PDT by laotzu
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To: Sherman Logan

“Some of us are interested only in the facts, and strive to operate with courtesy.”

Thank you for that; much appreciated.


12 posted on 06/09/2013 8:19:36 AM PDT by District13 (I miss my country!)
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To: montag813

According to your requirements for acceptable religious behavior, you will have to add Catholics to your “s” list, also, because many Catholic disagree with you.


13 posted on 06/09/2013 8:21:36 AM PDT by District13 (I miss my country!)
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To: montag813

My colleague is having to deal with a Mormon attorney who is into making those around him miserable. He is into the Mormon’s “bleed the beast” mentality, sucking off the government on disability, not working except in his extensive garden, while acting like “Harriet the Spy” keeping notes on and persecuting his neighbors, calling in codes violations, camping out on his lawn chair observing his neighbors, and in many other other ways hating his neighbor. I am hoping and praying for him to get boils, frogs, locusts etc.


14 posted on 06/09/2013 8:21:43 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: District13

The greatest problem Mormons will have in dealing with “anti-Mormons” is that the “anti-Mormons” are essentially right. Mormonism is a man made sect created either by Satan through Joseph Smith or by Joseph Smith on his own. Mormonism is not only not orthodox Christianity, it is not Christian.

After all that, everything else about Mormonism is merely academic.


15 posted on 06/09/2013 8:36:22 AM PDT by vladimir998
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Comment #16 Removed by Moderator

To: vladimir998

I tend to agree with you as many of their “spokesmen” and even people in positions of leadership have promulgated some weird doctrines and outright falsehoods. In addition, Smith’s sexual morals aided what most men would call “his lust!” His sexual behavior was foul as stated by some of his own followers. Smith was NOT a model of sexual probity. He was certainly not following the New Testament in matters sexual.


17 posted on 06/09/2013 8:47:21 AM PDT by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
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To: District13

Made up stories of how a new gospel of JC was found and the veracity of what actually happened or did not happen in the real world in those stories.

Vs

True stories of men who actually lived 2000 and more years ago who preached via stories of a God and Creation whose veracity can only be accepted by faith.

Tough one


18 posted on 06/09/2013 8:51:13 AM PDT by Vaquero (Don't pick a fight with an old guy. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.)
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To: District13; delacoert; Grig; greyfoxx39; All
Overall, they are yapping DOGS...

This reminds me of when an FR Mormon -- Grig, per Delacoert's home page -- see: Delacoert's home page -- where Delacoert has the original quote from a May 8, 2008 FR thread...
...Or you can just go to the original thread --Why so many LDS threads? (May 8, 2008) to see the quote from Grig:

"Rather than try to wrestle the PIG into taking a bath, we are just going to hose it down."

So...those who challenge MormonISM have now been upgraded by FR Mormons from swine to canine?

19 posted on 06/09/2013 8:52:10 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: KevinDavis

(How about if they re-massacre 120 innocents in a mountain meadow on a Sept. 11...like Sept. 11, 1857?)


20 posted on 06/09/2013 8:53:09 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: District13
According to your requirements for acceptable religious behavior, you will have to add Catholics to your “s” list, also, because many Catholic disagree with you.

unfortunately you are correct. Not the legally here, long time American Catholics, but the bishops and other clergy who see European extraction Catholics, who have lapsed in their faith and/or Mass attendance and see fresh bodies of mostly Roman Catholics who would replace those lapsed individuals. It all comes down to job security.

p.s. : I fall into the lapsed Catholic category

21 posted on 06/09/2013 8:59:23 AM PDT by Vaquero (Don't pick a fight with an old guy. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.)
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To: vladimir998

“Mormonism is a man made sect created either by Satan through Joseph Smith or by Joseph Smith on his own”

You are wrong. Jesus Christ is the Head of my Church - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.


22 posted on 06/09/2013 9:00:15 AM PDT by District13 (I miss my country!)
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To: District13
It’s like Mormons are deemed to be unworthy of “Christian” respect and decency.

Maybe it's because they're not Christian?

My personal point of view: Islam is less of a danger than Mormonism. Why?

Because Islam, at best, says they have Jesus, too ("Issa"), but there's no real danger an uninformed person would mistake Islam with Christianity.

Mormonism, on the other hand, is more dangerous, for it is a chameleon, changing color to masquerade as something it is not. It is not Christianity.

It has long been the consistent pattern of Mormons to differentiate themselves from the Christian faith, but when they want something, they try to integrate themselves into it, using tortuous logic, and theological legerdemain.

All Christians agree on this. All theologians agree on this. If they don't, check their credentials, and you'll have your answer.

I am an Orthodox ("straight") Christian. My background was evangelical Protestant. The Roman Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, and on and on...all agree that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, and that the theology of his religion has no foundation in Christ.

God wants us to come to him. He has not imposed "layers" of "revealed truth" or any complicated way to get to him. Any religion that does this is a CULT. Period. The process is complicated, lengthy, and interferes with man coming to God. He doesn't want this. (This should be everyone's First Clue something is of a cult, and not of Christ.)

I'm not saying Mormons aren't good people. But their theology is a crock, and even though new Mormons might share many Christian values, and even believe their theology is congruent, as they learn more and more, as more is "revealed," they diverge more and more.

I have just explained WHY it is that Mormons arouse such defensiveness on the part of Christians. We would be greatly remiss in our moral duties if we did nothing when the chameleon tries to persuade outsiders that, well, "I'm really not a chameleon."

The chameleon of Salt Lake City is more dangerous than the lion of Mecca. It is more dangerous because nobody could conflate Islam with Christianity. But a made-up 19th century religion that claims aspects of Christian theology for itself, while attempting to mislead the uninformed...well, we must defend Christianity.

(Now you know.)

Sauron

23 posted on 06/09/2013 9:03:12 AM PDT by sauron ("Truth is hate to those who hate Truth" --unknown)
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To: yldstrk

“My colleague is having to deal with a Mormon attorney who is into making those around him miserable.”

Sounds like a “Jack Mormon” but at any rate, I am sorry for a bad example. That doesn’t mean EVERY Mormon is a bad actor/actress.


24 posted on 06/09/2013 9:04:32 AM PDT by District13 (I miss my country!)
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To: Colofornian
(How about if they re-massacre 120 innocents in a mountain meadow on a Sept. 11...like Sept. 11, 1857?)

not for nuthin’ but do you think you can keep it at least a little contemporary?

I do not defend nor condemn Mormons. but if we must, lets keep it at least in the last century...not the one before...Our current enemy prays from a rug while facing east and their criminal events happened over the last 2 decades not the last Century and a half.

25 posted on 06/09/2013 9:06:20 AM PDT by Vaquero (Don't pick a fight with an old guy. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.)
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Comment #26 Removed by Moderator

To: Vaquero

Thank you for your post.


27 posted on 06/09/2013 9:08:21 AM PDT by District13 (I miss my country!)
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To: KevinDavis

Thank you for post #16


28 posted on 06/09/2013 9:08:56 AM PDT by District13 (I miss my country!)
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To: Vaquero

The Holy Bible is Holy Scripture to Mormons. We use King James version. Thank you very much.


29 posted on 06/09/2013 9:11:49 AM PDT by District13 (I miss my country!)
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To: sauron

you know you can find something less than noble about any number of Christian sects.

from the Coptics, who lived in the lands were Christ walked amongst mankind(but many European types find odd.)
to the Catholics, both Roman and Orthodox who claim to be the original church who followed in the shoes of the fisherman...and broke men on the wheel who did not follow the religion as the current heads, demanded.

....to the Protestants and Anglicans who hammer nails into cathedral doors or need a quickie divorce.....

they all contradict each other one way or another, but not in the fact that Christ was their savior.

Even if the LDS folks believe that an angel told some guy in western NY about golden plates and stories of Caucasian Indians....the folks who are members of such a Church and name it after Jesus Christ(as they take him as their saviour) and like many folks do not take their own faiths stories as rote, but a guide to living a decent life.


30 posted on 06/09/2013 9:24:37 AM PDT by Vaquero (Don't pick a fight with an old guy. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.)
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To: District13

see 30


31 posted on 06/09/2013 9:25:23 AM PDT by Vaquero (Don't pick a fight with an old guy. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.)
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To: District13

Your welcome


32 posted on 06/09/2013 9:29:55 AM PDT by KevinDavis (The Bill of Rights is a suicide pact.)
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To: sauron

It’s like Mormons are deemed to be unworthy of “Christian” respect and decency.

Maybe it’s because they’re not Christian?

My personal point of view: Islam is less of a danger than Mormonism. Why?

Because Islam, at best, says they have Jesus, too (”Issa”), but there’s no real danger an uninformed person would mistake Islam with Christianity.

Mormonism, on the other hand, is more dangerous, for it is a chameleon, changing color to masquerade as something it is not. It is not Christianity.

It has long been the consistent pattern of Mormons to differentiate themselves from the Christian faith, but when they want something, they try to integrate themselves into it, using tortuous logic, and theological legerdemain.

All Christians agree on this. All theologians agree on this. If they don’t, check their credentials, and you’ll have your answer.

I am an Orthodox (”straight”) Christian. My background was evangelical Protestant. The Roman Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, and on and on...all agree that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, and that the theology of his religion has no foundation in Christ.

God wants us to come to him. He has not imposed “layers” of “revealed truth” or any complicated way to get to him. Any religion that does this is a CULT. Period. The process is complicated, lengthy, and interferes with man coming to God. He doesn’t want this. (This should be everyone’s First Clue something is of a cult, and not of Christ.)

I’m not saying Mormons aren’t good people. But their theology is a crock, and even though new Mormons might share many Christian values, and even believe their theology is congruent, as they learn more and more, as more is “revealed,” they diverge more and more.

I have just explained WHY it is that Mormons arouse such defensiveness on the part of Christians. We would be greatly remiss in our moral duties if we did nothing when the chameleon tries to persuade outsiders that, well, “I’m really not a chameleon.”

The chameleon of Salt Lake City is more dangerous than the lion of Mecca. It is more dangerous because nobody could conflate Islam with Christianity. But a made-up 19th century religion that claims aspects of Christian theology for itself, while attempting to mislead the uninformed...well, we must defend Christianity.

(Now you know.)

Sauron

***

and when did the Holy Ghost bear witness all this to you,
Sauron?


33 posted on 06/09/2013 9:40:34 AM PDT by restornu (Love One Another)
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Comment #34 Removed by Moderator

To: District13
The Holy Bible is Holy Scripture to Mormons. We use King James version.

And yet you preach and worship in opposition to it.

35 posted on 06/09/2013 9:49:57 AM PDT by xone
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To: District13

Growing up in a Baptist household I was set in my ways at an early age. Many of my friends growing up were Mormons. As a teenager I went to dozens of dances at our local Mormon Church. Everyone was very friendly and those Mormon girls were some of the nicest that I have ever met.

No one ever tried to manipulate me into becoming a Mormon. I have Mormon co-workers and they are all good citizens and I respect them greatly. I am sorry if there have been others who had some type of bad experiences that have made them be intlooerant of Mormons. I have never had a single negative experience.


36 posted on 06/09/2013 9:54:24 AM PDT by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: District13

You would think many would have learn that from the beginning of time how much had been left out, omitted or distorted.

today more than ever the Book of Mormon reveals things and passages that have been dormant in our Bible for years now our eyes of understanding have been made clear.

those who have eyes can see and those who have ears can heard the rest will never know those Master voice.

I send this to some friends of mine we surely are at the cross roads....

My Dear friends we now live at a time no matter what you ever did in your life will be an open book weather a person uses the media devices such as computers or not...

This works both ways The Lord talks about the Restoration all things and the Opposition has it version of the restoration.

This is something that quicken to me when I first had a conversion to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints I did not know how it would unfold but I knew this was a truth and it would happen.

Our Heavenly Father and Savior knows all things every hair on our head but now a time has come the that opposition knows too much.

Now the time to have a good talk with yourself when that day comes who will you stand with, will you fear man more than your fear the Lord???

To quote Thomas Paine; “ These are the times that try men’s souls!”

I pray no matter how hard the situation is in your circumstance that you will have the courage to stand with the Lord and not faint nor get weak kneed.

Our Lord and Savior forgives us if we are sincere and contrite but the opposition will destroy you or make you think you are hopeless now is the time to get our house in order with the Lord and know that he Loves you and time will heal and forgive.

I know the book of Mormon is true I know it was written for our time and that it answers so many passages in the Bible that has laid dormant for years now they come to life and our eye of understanding is much clearer.

In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen

Some are going to miss the ride home because they are too busy being unkind to their fellowman.

Mosiah 2:40
40 O, all ye old men, and also ye young men, and you little children who can understand my words, for I have spoken plainly unto you that ye might understand, I pray that ye should awake to a remembrance of the awful situation of those that have fallen into transgression.

41 And moreover, I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven, that thereby they may dwell with God in a state of never-ending happiness. O remember, remember that these things are true; for the Lord God hath spoken it.

Ether 8:24
24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.

25 For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning.

26 Wherefore, I, Moroni, am commanded to write these things that evil may be done away, and that the time may come that Satan may have no power upon the hearts of the children of men, but that they may be persuaded to do good continually, that they may come unto the fountain of all righteousness and be saved.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures?lang=eng&cid=rdscriptures


37 posted on 06/09/2013 9:59:27 AM PDT by restornu (Love One Another)
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To: District13; vladimir998; All
[District 13 To Vladimir998]: You are wrong. Jesus Christ is the Head of my Church - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Who is this "Jesus" that Mormons claim? (Tis another Jesus)

Lds speak about, believe, acknowledge, worship, and trust a 'different' Christ than most Christians do

Lds Source Lds Leaders Say: 'Different Christ' Bible indicates: 'Different Christ'
Lds 'prophet' Gordon B. Hinckley: Lds "prophet" Gordon B. Hinckley: “There are those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints do not believe in the traditional Christ. No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak.” (LDS Church News, June 20, 1998)

Hinckley again: As a Church we have critics, many of them. They say we do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity. There is some substance to what they say. Our faith, our knowledge is not based on ancient tradition, the creeds which came of a finite understanding and out of the almost infinite discussions of men trying to arrive at a definition of the risen Christ. Our faith, our knowledge comes of the witness of a prophet in this dispensation who saw before him the great God of the universe and His Beloved Son, the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. ("We Look to Christ", from April 2002 General Conference.)

The traditional Christ within Christianity is uniquely THE ONLY begotten Son from eternity past, not one of millions of God's pre-existent "sons"; He is uniquely Savior, not one of millions of saviors per Mormondom; He is uniquely Creator and divine and self-existent from eternity past, not one of MILLIONS of men who are somehow likewise "self-existent" from eternity past; His blood is uniquely powerful beyond men's commandment-keeping -- lest the promise Jesus made to the thief on the cross become a false prophecy; and His blood is potent enough to cover ALL sins, unlike the Mormon Jesus who leaves men to "make up" for anemic blood via their own "blood atonement." He is one who absorbed God's wrath vs. the Book of Mormon violent Jesus who took out His wrath upon thousands of residents in alleged 16 Book of Mormon cities, violently sinking, entombing or destroying them post-death on the cross! For more on the "traditional Christ" of the Bible, see ensuing charts to be posted...
Lds official publication Ensign “It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons.” – LDS publication, Ensign Magazine, May 1977, p. 26 "True and saving worship is found ONLY among those who know the truth about God and the Godhead, and who understand the true relationship men should have with each member of that Eternal Presidency." ("Our Relationship with the Lord," in Fireside and Devotional Speeches, 1981-82 (Provo: BYU Press, 1982), p. 97 -- this quote republished in official Lds curricula publication in 1983, 1986, Come unto Christ: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, 1984/1988, p. 45) (See comparison charts to follow); Christians worship a Christ who can receive direct prayer (Acts 7:59; Mormons even militate vs. their own "scripture" on this -- see 3 Nephi 19:18, 24-26)
Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie "And virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pg.269). The Christ of Christianity is 'mythical' per an Lds "apostle"? And Mormons imagine that they haven't somehow wielded a direct attack upon Christians worldwide via claims like this? May I remind Mormons that this Lds "apostle" published a book in which the Mormon church ensured that it got ahold of the direct copyright, acquiring it from Bookcraft, and then publishing it under its direct ownership umbrella (Deseret Book Publishing) in 1993? This was a McConkie book that was published/republished under 7, count 'em 7, Mormon "prophets" (McKay, Lee, Kimball, Benson, Hunter, Hinckley, Monson). Only McKay conveyed strongly that alterations needs to be forthcoming after the initial edition, and revisions were made...but not enough to keep from embarrassing the Mormon faithful ever since!

Summary bottom-line:
Mormon official publications say they worship a different Christ...
...the Mormon "prophet" said they speak about, believe and acknowledge a different Christ...
...Most Christians say they worship, speak of and trust another Jesus...
...So. We would seem to be on the same page...so why the few stragglers who are out of harmony???

38 posted on 06/09/2013 10:03:06 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: District13; vladimir998; All
[District 13 To Vladimir998]: You are wrong. Jesus Christ is the Head of my Church - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Who is this "Jesus" that Mormons claim? (Tis another Jesus)

CHART"

(With Documentation)

Questions Distinguishing 'Mormon' jesus from Jesus of Bible Mormon 'Jesus' Jesus of Bible
1. Was Jesus self-existent from all eternity past? NO: Lds say ALL "intelligences" -- including Jesus -- existed (D&C 93:29) before becoming a "spirit" child born to a divine goddess on a planet near Kolob; yet Joseph Smith could not even keep his story straight here, giving a "revelation" in 1831 that "from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I AM, even Jesus Christ" (D&C 39:1) + Alma 13:9 talks about the "only begotten without beginning of days" I openly dare LDS to forthrightly exegete Doctrine & Covenants 39:1, which says: Hearken and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I AM, even Jesus Christ.... What does "from all eternity to all eternity" mean? "The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic...Intelligence is eternal & exists upon a self-existent principle...The first principles of man are self-existent with God." Smith, p. 210 [TofPresidents of the Church] YES: Bible: Before Abraham was, "I AM" (John 8:58) ["I AM" is a divine Name first introduced in Exodus 3:14 and means, "The Self-Existing One"...THE Jesus is self-existent and didn't need a "mom god" on a planet near Kolob to "progress" in His life. Mormons flat-out deny the teaching found in John 1:1, 18 and Micah 5:2, because they claim Jesus was part of a past creation process – (obviously if Jesus’ Mormon “father” was once a man, then Jesus was at some point “less” in stature at that “time”) * "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...the Word became flesh and dwelt among us [Jesus]" (Jn. 1:1,18). * ”But thou, Bethlehem Ephrata, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." (Micah 5:2)
2. Is the title 'firstborn' as applied to Christ linked to being the "elder brother" of you and me as pre-earth spirits, or to Christ as pre-eminent heir and creator of all things? The Firstborn "spirit" of many born spirits on a planet near Kolob; the 'Mormon Jesus' at his "spirit birth" was only "more special" at his "spirit birth" than you or me only because He was the "firstborn" In Hebrew culture, the firstborn = "heir"...Jesus was not the "first" to be born...though Paul also adds in Col. 1:18 Jesus was the "firstborn of the dead" -- the first to rise from the dead. Colossians 1:15-16 explains this Jesus as "heir" -- "firstborn" -- as this Greek word meant pre-eminent -- or has first right over all creation...Psalm 80:27 demonstrates this idea of priority of position as Col. 1:16 says Jesus is creator of all, all things were created for Jesus (cf. Hebrews 3:4)
3. Can the 'Creator' be One who was 'created' (as a 'creature')? YES "And virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pg.269 implying that "Christendom" postulates a "mythical Christ" because we say Jesus is "uncreated" -- and part of a "triple unity" with the Father and Holy Spirit). NO: 16 For by him were ALL things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL things were created by him, and for him: (Col. 1:16)
4. Was Jesus as Son of God perfect from eternity past? NO: "Even Christ himself was NOT perfect at first; he received not a fulness at first, but he received grace for grace, and he continued to receive more and more until he received a fulness." (Lds 6th "prophet" Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 1986, p. 68; cf. Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, p. 153) * "...we have a correct idea of the character of the Son from the writings of the apostles, so far as they learned it. But while he was tabernacling in the flesh, he was more or less contaminated with fallen nature." (Brigham Young, JoD vol. 6, p. 95) YES: "He made Him WHO KNEW NO SIN to be sin" (2 Cor. 5:21); Christ "did no sin" (1 Pet. 2:22)
5. Was Jesus always divine from eternity past? NO: * "Jesus BECAME a God and reached His great state of understanding through consistent effort and continuous obedience to all the Gospel truths and universal laws." (p. 51 Milton Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages); * "Christ ATTAINED Godhood while yet in pre-existence..." (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 323) YES: "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane, John 17:5); ...unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever (Heb. 1:8)
6. Was Jesus born "at" Bethlehem? NO: "...he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem..." (Alma 7:10, Book of Mormon) YES: Actual Jesus born IN Bethlehem (Matt. 2:1) not "at Jerusalem" Was Jesus born "at Jerusalem"?
7. Was one of the purposes that Christ came to earth was so that He, Himself could become a "saved being?" YES: The 'Mormon' Jesus: "Christ is a saved being” (Lds "apostle" McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p 257) “Modern revelation speaks of our Lord as he that ‘ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth‘ (D&C 88:6). Christ's rise to the throne of exaltation was preceded by his descent below all things. Only by submitting to the powers of demons and death and hell could he, in the resurrection, serve as our exemplar of a SAVED BEING...(McConkie and Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon, vol. 1, p. 234) Please also see... * McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p. 238 where he said the Mormon "jesus" "Needs salvation...Came to earth to work out His own salvation) and * McConkie, "The Seven Deadly Heresies,' in Speeches of the Year, 1980 [Provo: Brigham Young University Press, 1981] p. 78 where he said: "There was only one perfect being, the Lord Jesus. If men had to be perfect and live all of the law strictly, wholly, and completely, there would be only one saved person in eternity." [cited in Come, Follow Me: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide 1983 (1983) p. 72] NO: I'm sorry, but the real Christ did not need to "work out His own salvation" as Lds apostles teach; in fact, He is THE Savior of the world: And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be THE Savior of the world. (1 John 4:14; cf. John 4:42).
8. Is Jesus but one 'savior'-'redeemer' among many? YES: The "Jesus" of Brigham Young is one redeemer-savior among who knows how many? "He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. On every earth. How many earths are there?... Consequently every earth has its redeemer..." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 14, p. 71, 1870); cf. how Mormons name themselves as "saviors" -- numerous citations: Are Mormon people LITERAL saviors of dead Jews, others? NO: "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be THE Savior of the world." (1 John 4:14); "They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is THE Savior of the world.” (John 4:42)
9. Were our sins 'atoned' for in the Garden of Gethesemane? YES: * "It was in Gethsemane, on the slopes of the Mount of Olives, that Jesus made his perfect atonement by the shedding of his blood more so than on the cross." (BYU Professor Robert J. Matthews, A Bible! ABible! p. 282) * "It was there [Gethsemane] that the Savior paid the price for all the sorrows, sins and transgressions of every human being who ever lives or ever will live." (Seventy -- Second Quorum -- Wolfgang H. Paul, "Gratitude for the Atonement," Ensign, June 2007, p. 15) NO: This Jesus didn't atone for sins by sweating blood in the garden; He did it on Calvary as the Bible proclaims in Col. 1:20: "And, having made peace through the blood of the cross..."
10. Was Jesus quite violent at the point of His death? YES: Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith talked about "...a period of darkness at the death of Christ... "greater period of darkness and terrible punishment came upon the people in the Western Hemisphere because of their extreme wickedness..." (Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 3, p. 45, Deseret Book Co., 1960) Biblical Jesus came to see that they would have life (John 10:10); the Book of Mormon jesus came to bring down destruction (3 Nephi 9:12) and ensure that people would "howl" in that destruction (3 Nephi 8:23); The Biblical Jesus came to ensure people would have abundant life (John 10:10); the Book of Mormon jesus came to ensure people would be in "continual...mourning" (3 Nephi 8:23); The Biblical Jesus came to be the Light of the world (John 1:9; 8:12; 9:5); the Book of Mormon jesus came to yield complete darkness for three days (3 Nephi 8:23) NOTE: Please read 3 Nephi 8:8-->3 Nephi 9:12 for entire picture of overwhelming destruction caused by the Mormon 'Jesus': Cities were supposedly all either sunk by the Mormon jesus, or horrifically burned to death, plus for added emphasis, ”many great destructions have I caused to come upon this land...” (3 Nephi 9:12)...All told, upon the Mormon jesus' death, he supposedly unleashes punishment. He levels 16 cities, killing 70,000-->90,000 people! [Note: Nothing of the kind is stated in the Bible!] Yes, there was judgment on the cross! Yes, it was terrible!
But the real Jesus absorbed all of that judgment and terror -- our very sins -- there on the cross! The sad result is that too many LDS & RLDS alike ONLY see the Book of Mormon Easter judgment upon people! The week that followed the Book of Mormon jesus’ resurrection, was a terrible 4 days or so! No wonder a tremendous aversion to the cross exists among Mormons due to Joseph Smith's version of post crucifixion events!
NO: The Biblical Jesus came to see that they would have life (John 10:10), to ensure people would have abundant life (John 10:10), and to be the Light of the world (John 1:9; 8:12; 9:5)
11. Did Jesus really die for our personal sins or our rebellious nature? NO: Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland though claims forgiveness of personal sins applies to only to members of the Mormon church: From this Holland article: Latter-day Saints believe that other aspects of Christ's gift are conditional upon obedience and diligence in keeping God's commandments. For example, while members of the human family are freely and universally given a reprieve from Adam's sin through no effort or action of their own, they are not freely and universally given a reprieve of their own sins unless they pledge faith in Christ, repent of those sins, are baptized in his name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and confirmation into Christ's church... Source: Lds "apostle" Jeffrey Holland: ATONEMENT OF JESUS CHRIST - Mormon- (OPEN) The Mormon 2nd article of faith emphasizes the Mormon doctrine of men being subject to punishment for their own sins; this Mormon "jesus" doesn't serve as our Substitute [LDS second article of faith: "We believe that men will be punished for their OWN sins, and not for Adam's transgression."] The Mormon second article of faith, therefore, is a half-truth and a false gospel. Men who do not place their faith in the true Jesus Christ will indeed die in their sins; beyond that, Jesus' blood covers the sin of others. The flip side of the Mormon 2nd article of faith is that the Mormon jesus was simply punished for Adam's sin to release us to "free agency." YES, BOTH: "...the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7) Other Biblical verses rejected: 1 John 2:2; 1 Peter 2:24; Heb. 1:3
12. Is Christ's powerful atoning blood diluded to 'anemic' levels? YES: Although the Book of Mormon makes some solid statements about Christ's powerful atoning blood (see, for example Mosiah 3:18), Mormon leaders wind up accusing Jesus of having rather anemic blood; yes, Lds "scriptures" highlight His blood as one which cleanses from unrighteousness (Alma 7:14, Book of Mormon; D&C 76:41, Doctrines & Covenants; Moses 6:59, Pearl of Great Price) -- unfortunately such ultimate cleansing is rooted solely on ability to keep commandments: "That by keeping the commandments, they MIGHT be washed and cleansed from all their sins." (D&C 76:52). Other related statements to diluting cleansing power of Christ's blood: * "Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf. This is scriptural doctrine, and is taught in all the standard works of the Church." (Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith, "Doctrines of Salvation, vol.1 , p. 135-136) * "Man may commit certain grievous sins--according to his light and knowledge--that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be save he must make sacrifice of his own life to atone-- so far as in his power lies -- for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail." (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 93). So much for the power of Christ's blood to cover sins per Mormonism! * "Christians speak often of the blood of Christ and its cleansing power. Much that is believed and taught on this subject, however, is such utter nonsense and so palpably false that to believe it is to lose one's salvation. Many go so far, for instance, as to pretend, at least, to believe that if we confess Christ with our lips and avow that we accept him as our personal Savior, we are thereby saved. His blood, without other act than mere belief, they say, makes us clean." (Lds Tract titled, "What the Mormons Think of Christ, p. 31) * "There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it; and the judgments of the Almighty will come, sooner or later, and every man and woman will have to atone for breaking their covenants" (Brigham Young, March 16, 1856, Journal of Discourses, 3:247) NO: "...the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from ALL sin." (1 John 1:7); "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood" (Rev. 1:5); "... with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation."(Rev. 5:9); "they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Rev. 7:14); "And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood." (Heb. 13:12); "Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus..." (Heb. 10:19); "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace" (Eph. 1:7); Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" (Rom. 5:9)
13. Is Jesus as unique as the Bible makes Him out to be? NO: Due to unique Lds doctrine that (a) we were all eternal; (b) we were all spirit babies just like Jesus; (c) their teaching that Jesus was a "saved being" -- in need of "salvation"; (d) all Mormons become "saviors" via baptizing dead people; (e) all temple Mormons become gods. (f) and SOME Lds leaders' teachings that Jesus is not deserving of worship. The Mormon "jesus" upon spirit birth was not unique other than his spirit birth order. He's just one god among perhaps millions of Mormon "gods." (Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball not all that long ago told 225,000 gathered that perhaps "225,000 gods" were among them then!!!) YES: 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of THE ONLY begotten Son of God. (John 3:18) Jesus is either "the ONLY begotten Son" from eternity -- not one of MANY begotten spirit sons in some pre-existence -- or He is not unique; and if Lds say "begotten" references such new "condition" Jesus acquired upon conception in Mary's womb, how is it that Jesus suddenly became a Son and the Father suddenly became a Father -- unless it's true that Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie & Lds "prophet" Brigham Young taught that the paternity was a literal one -- that the Father came down and had sex with Mary!!!
14. Can Jesus be prayed to directly? NO: Yet... “And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and God…when Jesus had thus prayed unto the Father, he came unto his disciples, and behold, they did still continue, without ceasing, to pray unto him…And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him…And Jesus said unto them: Pray on; nevertheless they did not cease to pray.” (3 Nephi 19:18, 24-26, Book of Mormon) YES Stephen, Acts prayed directly to Jesus! While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." (Acts 7:59)

39 posted on 06/09/2013 10:03:42 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: teppe
My experience .... Anti Mormons will perform any inuendo, any distortion, any smear .... and any construction to destroy LDS beleifs.

Would that include your own books and newspapers? What about the five accounts of the first vision? That's all Mormon sources.

As a black man I have to say that LDS history does not paint a pleasant picture of us, Brigham Young had some interesting things to say about us in JOD, along with numerous other leader of Mormonism.
40 posted on 06/09/2013 10:11:26 AM PDT by ForAmerica (Texas Conservative Christian Black Man!)
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To: District13

I see a lot of hyperbole and hot button language used both in the linked article and in some pro-Mormonism comments on this thread....”yapping dogs”, “assault”, “smear”, “attack”, etc. All very emotional in nature and painting Mormons as victims....I’m reminded of the type of arguments we see from the left when they defend homosexuality.

Of course you’re entitled to worship as you wish, but the problem comes when you try to say that your religion is Christian. Your doctrine proves it is not. All the protestations in the world won’t change that.

The “Lord’s wagon” isn’t driven by a deity who used to be a human being.


41 posted on 06/09/2013 10:12:29 AM PDT by CatherineofAragon ((Support Christian white males----the architects of the jewel known as Western Civilization).)
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To: laotzu
We must build a list. Yes...we must start with a list.

It's already in the works. The starting list is the Utah Chamber of Commerce, which is 100% behind illegal alien amnesty and the Gang of 8 bill.

42 posted on 06/09/2013 10:17:21 AM PDT by montag813
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To: laotzu
Well said. Salute.

Joseph Smith cast the first stone!

"My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right — and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt . . ." (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 1, p. 5-6).

Do you really know your history? Or you don't care?
43 posted on 06/09/2013 10:17:26 AM PDT by ForAmerica (Texas Conservative Christian Black Man!)
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To: District13

One of the characteristics of Conservatives is supposed to be tolerance. Take William F. Buckley, or Ronald Reagan as examples. Ain’t seeing much tolerance on these pages. The hissing snake handlers, Harold Campings and fans of Crouches and Grahams, each of them claiming that his or her interpretation of the Bible is the correct one (but, curiously, never disagreeing among themselves or with their brethren among Jehovah’s Witnesses or 7th Day Adventists), viciously attack the Mormons and the Catholics, while claiming to love Jesus! Go figure.

Peace.


44 posted on 06/09/2013 10:17:51 AM PDT by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: yldstrk
My colleague is having to deal with a Mormon attorney who is into making those around him miserable. He is into the Mormon’s “bleed the beast” mentality, sucking off the government on disability, not working except in his extensive garden, while acting like “Harriet the Spy” keeping notes on and persecuting his neighbors, calling in codes violations, camping out on his lawn chair observing his neighbors, and in many other other ways hating his neighbor. I am hoping and praying for him to get boils, frogs, locusts etc.

"Eternal Progression" hard at work!
45 posted on 06/09/2013 10:19:21 AM PDT by ForAmerica (Texas Conservative Christian Black Man!)
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To: KevinDavis; District13
I’ll start bashing Mormons when the blow up people at marathons,

Not the point. This is not about "Mormons". I have Mormon friends who oppose amnesty for illegals. It is the LDS LEADERSHIP THAT IS CORRUPT and must be brought down by its own membership. Judge Murray Snow is part of this leadership, as is his father. The LDS leadership has betrayed Mormon precepts regarding obeying the law in favor of increasing their flock with illegal aliens from Latin America and Mexico. The LDS is a principal force behind the Gang of 8 amnesty bill. This is TREASON. Many, many Mormons do NOT know this!

46 posted on 06/09/2013 10:21:03 AM PDT by montag813
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To: ForAmerica

On the island of Niihau. It was raining.


47 posted on 06/09/2013 10:24:14 AM PDT by laotzu
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To: District13
You are wrong. Jesus Christ is the Head of my Church - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Which Jesus?

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are following a different gospel – not that there really is another gospel, but there are some who are disturbing you and wanting to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we (or an angel from heaven) should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be condemned to hell! As we have said before, and now I say again, if any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let him be condemned to hell! Galatians 1:6-9

What did Moroni tell Joseph? Was it a different gospel?
48 posted on 06/09/2013 10:25:41 AM PDT by ForAmerica (Texas Conservative Christian Black Man!)
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To: laotzu
On the island of Niihau. It was raining.

Changing the subject won't help you.
49 posted on 06/09/2013 10:29:57 AM PDT by ForAmerica (Texas Conservative Christian Black Man!)
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To: ForAmerica

Help me.


50 posted on 06/09/2013 10:49:11 AM PDT by laotzu
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