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'Cessationists Are Wrong' About Speaking in Tongues, Says Pastor Mark Driscoll
Christian Post ^ | 06/14/2013 | Nicola Menzie

Posted on 06/14/2013 10:49:52 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

Pastor Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill Church in Seattle, Wash., recently spoke on the gift of tongues as described in the New Testament as part of his "Acts: Empowered for Jesus' Mission" sermon series. The conservative Reformed, or New Calvinist, Christian minister laid out his arguments as to why he believes the gift of speaking in tongues did not end with Jesus' apostles in the first century.

Cessationists, such as influential pastor and traditional Calvinist John MacArthur, believe that 1 Corinthians 13:8 and other Biblical passages indicate that the divine ability to speak in other languages or an unknown tongue (glossolalia) ended with the apostles' deaths, as did prophetic revelations and faith-healings through individuals. Some Christians, however, believe that these Holy Spirit-inspired gifts will continue until Christ's return.

In the sermon excerpt shared online this week by Mars Hill Church, Pastor Driscoll tackles three "common questions about the gift of tongues," listed as: "Can every Christian have the gift of tongues? Does Mars Hill Church believe that the gift of tongues is for today? And what happens when the private use of tongues goes public?"

Before diving into his responses, Driscoll insisted that the only way to know who may be "right" or "wrong" about speaking in tongues was by studying the Scriptures — and "not by taking our experience and making it normative."

Although the key text for the full sermon, titled "Empowered by the Spirit to Follow Jesus," was the account of Pentecost in Acts 2:1-13, the megachurch pastor and bestselling author looked to 1 Corinthians 12:8-11 to help frame his responses.

Driscoll relayed a part of the passage: "'For to one is given through the Spirit . . . various kinds of tongues' — or languages, heavenly or earthly — 'to another, the interpretation of tongues' — the ability to articulate in the other language what has been said in the foreign language. 'All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.'"

In regard to whether Mars Hill Church believes that the gift of tongues is an ongoing occurrence, Driscoll stated his agreement with cessationism, while also asking the congregation to consider life in heaven.

"When we get to heaven, the gift of evangelism is not going to be as needed as it is now. You're like, 'I'm going to go out and find the lost people.' There aren't any. This is the kingdom of God. Everybody here already loves Jesus. ... So, evangelism comes to an end," he said, according to the sermon transcript.

He noted 1 Corinthians 13:8-12, which reads: "Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known."

"So, we agree with the Cessationists that yes, certain gifts, at least, they're going to cease. They're going to cease," added Driscoll. "Where we disagree with the Cessationists and we agree with the Continuationists is when they cease. We believe that all of the gifts continue until one very important transitionary moment in the history of the world."

He continued, "So, when do these gifts cease? When? When Jesus comes back, when we see him face to face. So the Cessationists are right: certain gifts will come to an end. But the Cessationists are wrong: the end has not yet come. And the Continuationists are right: all the gifts continue until we see him face to face, until Jesus comes again."

The full sermon, third so far in Driscoll's 10-part series, "Acts: Empowered for Jesus' Mission," is available on Mars Hill Church's website. Driscoll, 42, preached "Empowered by the Spirit to Follow Jesus" on June 9, 2013, at the megachurch's Bellevue, Wash., location.

Some Cessationists, such as Pastor John MacArthur, whose The Master's Seminary shares the same campus as his Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, Calif., agree with Driscoll's suggestion that the "perfect" referenced in 1 Corinthians 13:10 speaks of a future eternal state, a period precipitated by Christ's earthly return. However, the evangelical Christian minister points to other passages he believes serve as strong evidence that "tongues ceased in the apostolic age." Cessationists also argue that the completion of the New Testament writings made the continuation of charismatic spiritual gifts unnecessary. Christians in general, though, believe that the Bible teaches that other spiritual gifts, such as teaching, exhortation, discernment and others, are always present to believers.

"Miracle gifts like tongues and healing are mentioned only in 1 Corinthians, an early epistle. Two later epistles, Ephesians and Romans, both discuss gifts of the Spirit at length — but no mention is made of the miraculous gifts," explains an adaptation of MacArthur's 1992 book Charismatic Chaos, published on the theologian's Grace to You (GTY) ministry website. "By that time miracles were already looked on as something in the past (Heb. 2:3-4). Apostolic authority and the apostolic message needed no further confirmation. Before the first century ended, the entire New Testament had been written and was circulating through the churches."

He adds, "The revelatory gifts had ceased to serve any purpose. And when the apostolic age ended with the death of the Apostle John, the signs that identified the apostles had already become moot (cf. 2 Cor. 12:12)."

Listing further Biblical evidence, the GTY.org writing suggests that "tongues were intended as a sign to unbelieving Israel (1 Cor. 14:21-22; cf. Is. 28:11-12). They signified that God had begun a new work that encompassed the Gentiles. The Lord would now speak to all nations in all languages. The barriers were down. And so the gift of languages symbolized not only the curse of God on a disobedient nation, but also the blessing of God on the whole world."

The final Scriptural support given identifies the gift of tongues as "inferior to other gifts" and something that was "given primarily as a sign (1 Cor. 14:22) and was also easily misused to edify self (1 Cor. 14:4)."

"The church meets for the edification of the body, not self-gratification or personal experience-seeking. Therefore, tongues had limited usefulness in the church, and so it was never intended to be a permanent gift," concludes the GTY.org resource titled "The Gift of Tongues." MacArthur, who will tackle the issue in his upcoming Strange Fire conference, reiterates that view in a recent excerpt of his commentary on 1 Corinthians, in which he calls the gift of tongues "(t)he most controversial spiritual gift in our day."


TOPICS: Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: cessationists; driscoll; holyspirit; markdriscoll; megachurch; pastor; seattle; tounges
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1 posted on 06/14/2013 10:49:52 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind
"Cessationists, such as influential pastor and traditional Calvinist John MacArthur"

MacArthur has a dispensational eschatology so I'm not sure I'd call him a "traditional Calvinist".

2 posted on 06/14/2013 10:52:02 AM PDT by circlecity
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To: SeekAndFind

Let’s start with making the lame walk and the blind see and then talk about glossolalia.


3 posted on 06/14/2013 10:58:14 AM PDT by BipolarBob (Jesus gave us His life, His Word and His Spirit.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Actually, we only have a problem with gibberish that is NOT a language, and its inability to be translated by another.


4 posted on 06/14/2013 11:03:22 AM PDT by Salvavida (The restoration of the U.S.A. starts with filling the pews at every Bible-believing church.)
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To: SeekAndFind

“Some Christians, however, believe that these Holy Spirit-inspired gifts will continue until Christ’s return.”

Full preterism is the ONLY interpretive paradigm that puts all of the New Testament writings in their proper context.


5 posted on 06/14/2013 11:03:26 AM PDT by Stingray (Stand for the truth or you'll fall for anything.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Demonstrating the legitimacy of modern tongues would be a perfectly simple matter. I Corinthians is very straightforward: “If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.” The speaking is not meant to be mere noise — it is real speaking, meant to convey information, as passed along by the interpreter.

So you record the alleged tongue-speaking then play it back for several alleged interpreters. If different interpreters all give different translations, then at least all but one of them are fraudulent. If an interpreter gives a different translation for the same recording at different times, he is fraudulent.


6 posted on 06/14/2013 11:03:47 AM PDT by Sloth (Rather than a lesser Evil, I voted for Goode.)
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To: SeekAndFind

My wife and I went to that church a couple of times when we lived in the Seattle area. Three observations:
1. The music is pretty good, but it is mainly “performance” music.
2. The pastor so badly did that “look over the croud” public speaking style that at the end of the sermon I asked the sound guy if the project his notes on the back wall by the ceiling. He spent virtually the entire sermon looking at the seam between the back wall and the ceiling. It was kinda creeping me out.
3. Lots of tatoos and body hardware there (goth, emo, etc.)

I’m not saying any of thest things are bad in my book. They were just kinda “oddities” to me at the time. This was roughly five years ago.

Regarding tongues

I went to an Assembly of God church from the time I became a Christian (1981) and 1998. I was very involved and the church was very much into tongues, though I never received this “gift”. I’ve done a lot of study’s on the subject and think it is nothing more than a distraction today. The verses that speak of it generally say “don’t do it in public” or when it is in evidence it is people speaking in languages other than their own (e.g. pentacost).

But I don’t commit to it being real or not. If it is your main pursuit as a Christian I think you are very much missing the point.

If you want to argue something really juicy and with more scriptural evidence, how about Saul using a medium to conjure up Samuel, the dead Samuel’s comments, and the context of what the bible says about what happens to people after they die?


7 posted on 06/14/2013 11:05:24 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: Sloth

If there are no legitimate interpreters, then the alleged tongue-speaker is, at best, just making noise and ought to keep it to himself.


8 posted on 06/14/2013 11:05:28 AM PDT by Sloth (Rather than a lesser Evil, I voted for Goode.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Any Christian, who has attended a Messianic service understands what “speaking in tongues” is all about.


9 posted on 06/14/2013 11:06:25 AM PDT by Truth2012
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To: SeekAndFind

“When we get to heaven, the gift of evangelism is not going to be as needed as it is now. You’re like, ‘I’m going to go out and find the lost people.’ There aren’t any. This is the kingdom of God. Everybody here already loves Jesus. ... So, evangelism comes to an end,”


We don’t know enough about eternity regarding this to really say ANYTHING about it. We know that there are streets paved in Gold and in our Father’s house are many rooms. etc. So much is beyond our comprehension that He doesn’t even attempt to explain it. The whole thing is akin to trying to explain the color magenta to someone who was born blind.

i.e He is seeing it from a fleshly perspective.


10 posted on 06/14/2013 11:07:52 AM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Speaking in tongues and getting messages from God are purely marketing ploys to bring in the tithes the masses provide.

After all, if the guy at the Church across the street regularly converses with God and you don’t, well you’re going to feel it in the cashflow.

If you can make people think that babbling like fools is really God giving them the gift of gab, all the better.

That one will sustain itself amongst the congregants - it becomes a social status thing - who wants to hang out with someone that God doesn’t give the gift of “speaking in tongues”? Nobody. SO you better fake it like everybody else.


11 posted on 06/14/2013 11:07:56 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: SeekAndFind

If you reverse recorded speech, you’ll find most people speak several languages.


12 posted on 06/14/2013 11:11:08 AM PDT by rawcatslyentist (Jeremiah 50:32 "The arrogant one will stumble and fall With no one to raise him up; And I will set)
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To: Sloth
“If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.” The speaking is not meant to be mere noise — it is real speaking, meant to convey information, as passed along by the interpreter.

That's my understanding of the issue.

13 posted on 06/14/2013 11:11:12 AM PDT by sargon (I don't like the sound of these here Boncentration Bamps!)
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To: SeekAndFind

Why is any one person so concerned about how any other person speaks to God? We’re His children. If He doesn’t want us to pray any particular way, He can say, “Shut up and go to sleep now, already.”


14 posted on 06/14/2013 11:12:18 AM PDT by Tax-chick (It's a caaaaaaaat!)
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To: SeekAndFind

The real point that Paul is trying to make with out offending anyone is that even at that time people were seeking the gift of speaking in tongues which is the milk.

Many of these people should have been grown up by then and seeking more important things which no doubt involved work, not works of the law but works of faith.

It does say that prophecies will fail and tongues will cease and i think we should be able to see that they have.

John in rev gave the last prophecies, what more do we need except to live like Jesus said to live.

Rev 22
18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


15 posted on 06/14/2013 11:19:57 AM PDT by ravenwolf
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To: sargon
I have never heard anyone who spoke in tongues reveal anything that is not already revealed in scripture.

I believe the Tongue Speaking today is a counterfeit.

16 posted on 06/14/2013 11:20:01 AM PDT by caww
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To: SeekAndFind
The Charismatic movement is in many places
And, IMHO, Is one of the greatest hopes
for fusion of the Christian Faiths
It can be quite... Ecumenical

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Charismatic_Renewal

http://www.charismamag.com/spirit/devotionals/loving-god?view=article&id=962:southern-baptist-pastors-continue-to-embrace-charismatic-renewal&catid=154

http://aldersgaterenewal.org/who-we-are/what-we-believe/196-guidelines-the-united-methodist-church-and-the-charismatic-movement

17 posted on 06/14/2013 11:21:11 AM PDT by HangnJudge
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To: SeekAndFind
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Not sure why I'd need a latter day revelation. I'll stick with scripture, which I know can make me complete and thoroughly equipped to every good work.

Even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed." That renders all latter day revelations as either redundant or cursed.

No, thank you.

18 posted on 06/14/2013 11:28:57 AM PDT by sinatorhellary
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To: SeekAndFind

Only one thing wrong with the argument of “speaking in tongues” still being viable. It was an occurrence that allowed many peoples to understand something even though it was not in their native tongues. Today it is some mystical, “magical” thing where all others hear are guttural noises that do not impart any information. I have a friend who attended a church where the Black female “reverend” spoke in tongues and encouraged her flock to do the same. I had him ask her why nobody could understand what was being said. She told him that she understood it all - because she was “on a higher spiritual plane” than he. I told him to run from that church even if his wife insisted on staying - someone had to be in spiritual condition to witness to the other.


19 posted on 06/14/2013 11:34:20 AM PDT by trebb (Where in the the hell has my country gone?)
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To: SeekAndFind

I am not a one who believes God somehow cannot do something, or has quit doing it. However, most people today who speak in tongues do so against scripture.

Yes, I said it. Paul, writing under the influence of the Holy Spirit wrote the letters to the Corinthians, and set up the proper usages and understandings of the gifts of the Spirit.

Most of the charismatics today view the Holy Spirit as a force, or tool, instead of the proper realization that the Holy Spirit IS GOD.

If you look historically at gifts, God gives them for the advance of the Church, just as he did with miracles and healings. These are not primarily for the benefit of the individual believer (although that’s what we focus on).

For example, consider someone raised from the dead in the New Testament (for example, Dorcus). She was raised from the dead, and later, died a normal death (like for example Lazarus). Of course, this had a huge impact on the early Church, but from the perspective of an individual, they still died, just later.

Why is it we want perfection on earth, and our heavenly gifts here? We should be content to wait until our Lord’s return.


20 posted on 06/14/2013 11:52:52 AM PDT by BereanBrain
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To: HangnJudge

Amen!


21 posted on 06/14/2013 11:58:34 AM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: Truth2012
"Any Christian, who has attended a Messianic service understands what 'speaking in tongues' is all about."

Can you elaborate on that comment? I'm honestly curious as to what you're talking about.

22 posted on 06/14/2013 12:08:59 PM PDT by ducttape45
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To: cuban leaf
If you want to argue something really juicy and with more scriptural evidence, how about Saul using a medium to conjure up Samuel, the dead Samuel’s comments, and the context of what the bible says about what happens to people after they die?

What are the books and versus where this is mentioned? Thank you.

23 posted on 06/14/2013 12:11:24 PM PDT by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
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To: ducttape45

Yes. I would be glad to. I have contemplated what speaking in tongues is all about. I have visited churches where people openly pray in public, in tongues, and over the years I have come to the conclusion that this idea of a secret prayer language in the charismatic church is a trick of the mind.

It was not until I , as a Christian, attended a Messianic congregation that I understood that ancient Hebrew is the sound that the Lord meant.

The services about Jesus in Hebrew are eye opening.


24 posted on 06/14/2013 12:20:02 PM PDT by Truth2012
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To: SeekAndFind

Gobbledygook mumbo-jumbospeak.

Audible insanity is what speaking in tongues is all about.


25 posted on 06/14/2013 12:36:04 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: Lx

1 Samuel 28, starting in vs 3 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20samuel%2028&version=NIV

I listen to the bible on my android through my car stereo most days on my way to and from work. It is a 2.5 hour round trip so I get heavy “single session” doses of the bible. I’m on 2 Samuel now but this whole visit to the medium was fascinating. You rarely hear sermons on it. ;-)


26 posted on 06/14/2013 12:40:20 PM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Read Corinthians. You cannot help but see that the “unknown” tongues are nothing but foreign languages. Nothing more.


27 posted on 06/14/2013 1:11:40 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Sometimes you need 7+ more ammo. LOTS MORE.)
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To: Sloth

The thing about speaking in tongues is that anyone can do it if they enter into an ecstatic state. You don’t have to be a Christian or to even believe in God. The hard part is to decipher the source of the behavior.


28 posted on 06/14/2013 1:25:12 PM PDT by CityCenter (Pleading the 5th is just so 1972.)
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To: Lx; cuban leaf

I would be careful in reading that instance as Samuel actually rising up. From the illustrious Matthew Henry’s commentary on those verses:

The spectre, or apparition, personating Samuel, asks why he is sent for (1Sa_28:15): Why hast thou disquieted me to bring me up? To us this discovers that it was an evil spirit that personated Samuel; for (as bishop Patrick observes) it is not in the power of witches to disturb the rest of good men and to bring them back into the world when they please; nor would the true Samuel have acknowledged such a power in magical arts: but to Saul this was a proper device of Satan’s, to draw veneration from him, to possess him with an opinion of the power of divination, and so to rivet him in the devil’s interests.

II. Saul makes his complaint to this counterfeit Samuel, mistaking him for the true; and a most doleful complaint it is: “I am sorely distressed, and know not what to do, for the Philistines make war against me; yet I should do well enough with them if I had but the tokens of God’s presence with me; but, alas! God has departed from me.” He complained not of God’s withdrawings till he fell into trouble, till the Philistines made war against him, and then he began to lament God’s departure. He that in his prosperity enquired not after God in his adversity thought it hard that God answered him not, nor took any notice of his enquiries, either by dreams or prophets, neither gave answers immediately himself nor sent them by any of his messengers. He does not, like a penitent, own the righteousness of God in this; but, like a man enraged, flies out against God as unkind and flies off from him: Therefore I have called thee; as if Samuel, a servant of God, would favour those whom God frowned upon, or as if a dead prophet could do him more service than the living ones. One would think, from this, that he really desired to meet with the devil, and expected no other (though under the covert of Samuel’s name), for he desires advice otherwise than from God, therefore from the devil, who is a rival with God. “God denies me, therefore I come to thee. Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.” - If I fail with heaven, I will move hell.

III. It is cold comfort which this evil spirit in Samuel’s mantle gives to Saul, and is manifestly intended to drive him to despair and self-murder. Had it been the true Samuel, when Saul desired to be told what he should do he would have told him to repent and make his peace with God, and recall David from his banishment, and would then have told him that he might hope in this way to find mercy with God; but, instead of that, he represents his case as helpless and hopeless, serving him as he did Judas, to whom he was first a tempter and then a tormentor, persuading him first to sell his master and then to hang himself. 1. He upbraids him with his present distress (1Sa_28:16), tells him, not only that God had departed from him, but that he had become his enemy, and therefore he must expect no comfortable answer from him: “Wherefore dost thou ask me? How can I be thy friend when God is thy enemy, or thy counsellor when he has left thee?” 2. He upbraids him with the anointing of David to the kingdom, 1Sa_28:17. He could not have touched upon a string that sounded more unpleasant in the ear of Saul than this. Nothing is said to reconcile him to David, but all tends rather to exasperate him against David and widen the breach. Yet, to make him believe that he was Samuel, the apparition affirmed that it was God who spoke by him. The devil knows how to speak with an air of religion, and can teach false apostles to transform themselves into the apostles of Christ and imitate their language. Those who use spells and charms, and plead, in defence of them, that they find nothing in them but what is good, may remember what good words the devil here spoke, and yet with what a malicious design. 3. He upbraids him with his disobedience to the command of God in not destroying the Amalekites, 1Sa_28:18. Satan had helped him to palliate and excuse that sin when Samuel was dealing with him to bring him to repentance, but now he aggravates it, to make him despair of God’s mercy. See what those get that hearken to Satan’s temptations. He himself will be their accuser, and insult over them. And see whom those resemble that allure others to that which is evil and reproach them for it when they have done. 4. He foretels his approaching ruin, 1Sa_28:19. (1.) That his army should be routed by the Philistines. This is twice mentioned: The Lord shall deliver Israel into the hand of the Philistines. This he might foresee, by considering the superior strength and number of the Philistines, the weakness of the armies of Israel, Saul’s terror, and especially God’s departure from them. Yet, to personate a prophet, he very gravely ascribes it once and again to God: The Lord shall do it. (2.) That he and his sons should be slain in the battle: Tomorrow, that is, in a little time (and, supposing that it was now after midnight, I see not but it may be taken strictly for the very next day after that which had now begun), thou and thy sons shall be with me, that is, in the state of the dead, separate from the body. Had this been the true Samuel, he could not have foretold the event unless God had revealed it to him; and, though it were an evil spirit, God might by him foretel it; as we read of an evil spirit that foresaw Ahab’s fall at Ramoth-Gilead and was instrumental in it (1Ki_22:20, etc.), as perhaps this evil spirit was, by the divine permission, in Saul’s destruction. That evil spirit flattered Ahab, this frightened Saul, and both that they might fall; so miserable are those that are under the power of Satan; for, whether he rage or laugh, there is no rest, Pro_29:9.


29 posted on 06/14/2013 1:28:20 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: trebb

Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 1 Corinthians 13:8-10

Paul wrote that when the perfect came the partial would cease.

The “perfect” came in 70 AD, when the partial - the Law - was finally and forever done away with in the destruction of the Temple (the “reformation” of Hebrews 9).

I would strongly urge all to read the book of Hebrews to understand the significance of what the imperfect vs. the perfect meant.


30 posted on 06/14/2013 1:50:24 PM PDT by Stingray (Stand for the truth or you'll fall for anything.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Thank you. I agree. I like to bring this stuff up to discuss and also refute wnat the overt satans say/do. You answered some of my questions and demonstrated that there can often be wisdom hidden in plain sight in the bible. Your post also makes me think that this should be the subject of sermons more often.


31 posted on 06/14/2013 1:50:46 PM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: Sloth; sargon
1 Cor 14:18,19

"I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue."

Paul points out the differences in using tongues in private vs. public settings.

In private he speaks in tongues more than anyone presumably for self-edification.

But in church the tongues should be interpreted for the benefit of others.

32 posted on 06/14/2013 3:27:37 PM PDT by what's up
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To: Stingray

On other words, the apostolic understanding of perfect vs. imperfect is canonized in the book of Hebrews.


33 posted on 06/14/2013 3:56:45 PM PDT by Stingray (Stand for the truth or you'll fall for anything.)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
Read Corinthians. You cannot help but see that the “unknown” tongues are nothing but foreign languages. Nothing more.

They appear to be foreign languages...

But then,,,, Paul says, 'tho I speak in tongues of men AND ANGELS,!!! What is that???

My conclusion based on 'not much' is that Adam was gifted with a language not only to speak to God with but his descendents as well...And I conclude from the verse that angels can converse with an actual language...

I have also concluded this language is probably Hebrew...

I find no language in the scriptures that justifies speaking in what Charismatics call tongues...

34 posted on 06/14/2013 6:01:37 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Tax-chick
Why is any one person so concerned about how any other person speaks to God? We’re His children. If He doesn’t want us to pray any particular way, He can say, “Shut up and go to sleep now, already.”

LOL! I honestly don't care what goes on between a person and God, because, If the person is sincere, God WILL teach him how to pray. Sometimes that may involve being still and knowing God. The concern I have over the so-called gift of tongues in use today is when people insist that, in order to be saved, one must be "filled with the Spirit" or "baptized in the Spirit" - demonstrated by "speaking in tongues". They make this a mandatory exhibition and actually question a person's sincerity if he doesn't "get" this gift. To me, that is wrong and cannot be proved by Scripture. Paul even said in Corinthians that not everyone gets the same gifts, so that means the one who didn't speak in tongues was no less a real Christian than one who did.

35 posted on 06/14/2013 9:14:13 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: sinatorhellary
Amen! Some of the stuff that many modern Charismatic televangelists say Jesus revealed to them personally is often anti-scriptural and, sometimes, utter lunacy. Yet, their “flock” is expected to believe it because he has “the gift”. Scripture said prophecy would stop and I believe that the Apostle John was the last prophet for this age.
36 posted on 06/14/2013 9:20:56 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Stingray; trebb
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 1 Corinthians 13:8-10

I've had people tell me that their gift of tongues was a heavenly language and that the Holy Spirit was praying through them "in words that cannot be uttered". They insisted that ALL Christians should pray in the Spirit - but to them that means we all should speak in tongues. I believe the Scripture you posted disproves that contention since Paul says that these "tongues" would cease. I imagine that in heaven we will all be able to understand each other no matter what our native language was while here on earth and there will be no deaf or mutes there, either. Therefore, the heavenly language is NOT the same thing as the tongues/unknown language God gifted to those first century believers. That gift was a special one designed to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to all nations - both those represented in Jerusalem that first Pentecost after the resurrection as well as the new believers spread throughout the world when the church began.

37 posted on 06/14/2013 9:59:13 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: trebb
Preachers like that woman you mentioned are doing exactly what the Apostle Paul scolded the Corinthian believers for doing. They were “showing-off” and using what was meant as a tool to preach the Gospel to unbelievers for their own personal pride....and we know how God thinks about pride.
38 posted on 06/14/2013 10:02:07 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

Hi boatbums- I just read all your comments on this thread. Those were wise words.


39 posted on 06/15/2013 12:01:00 AM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: johngrace

Thank you. I cherish the times we can agree. :o)


40 posted on 06/15/2013 12:14:13 AM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums
Hi Boatbums-

Ephesians 6

18 "And Pray IN the Spirit on All Occasions with All Kinds of Prayers and REQUESTS. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people. 19 Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20 for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may declare it fearlessly, as I should."

-----------------------------------------------

This shows that you are speaking in the spirit with your native tongue also. A real request is mostly in your native tongue. I do not know of personal requests that a person knows just by an unction of the Holy Spirit tongues/language. The Holy Spirit is bearing up intercession by you mostly when it is vocalized. You are never "Possessed" or out of your own control by the Holy Spirit. He is a perfect gentleman. I know I have the unction to vocalize. Just so you know.

This shows exactly these people are wrong to assume tongues/languages are for every believer. Just so you know from another perspective.

Cheers in Christ.

41 posted on 06/15/2013 12:42:56 AM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: boatbums
when people insist that, in order to be saved, one must be "filled with the Spirit" or "baptized in the Spirit" - demonstrated by "speaking in tongues".

Okay, I can see your point.

42 posted on 06/15/2013 4:05:25 AM PDT by Tax-chick (It's a caaaaaaaat!)
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To: BipolarBob
Here's my favorite televangelist......not for religious purposes but just entertainment.

We’ve seen midgets grow

43 posted on 06/15/2013 4:17:29 AM PDT by Hot Tabasco (This space for rent)
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To: boatbums

“I’ve had people tell me that their gift of tongues was a heavenly language and that the Holy Spirit was praying through them “in words that cannot be uttered”. They insisted that ALL Christians should pray in the Spirit - but to them that means we all should speak in tongues. I believe the Scripture you posted disproves that contention since Paul says that these “tongues” would cease.”

Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language. 7 They were amazed and astonished, saying, “Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 “And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born? 9 “Parthians and Medes and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God.” 12 And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” 13 But others were mocking and saying, “They are full of sweet wine.” 14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words. 15 “For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; 16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 17 ‘AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,’ God says, ‘THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS; Acts 2:5-17

There are several things noteworthy about this passage from Acts. The first is that Luke uses the words describing these Jewish foreigners as devout men “from every nation under heaven.” He then goes on to list some of the nations from which these men came to Jerusalem. This phrase is repeated several times in the New Testament, and it’s always in reference to every nation under heaven as the apostles knew the world at that time: not as we do.

So when someone asks if America is in Biblical prophecy, the resounding answer is an emphatic “NO!” Neither is Russia nor Japan, nor South America, to name a few. Tongues were given to the apostles to preach the gospel in the world they knew.

Second, Peter claims this event was a sign of the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy indicating they were living in the “last days” (verses 16-17). In Peter’s epistle, he reaffirms this idea:

The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 1 Peter 4:7

So if the end of all things was near to the apostles, but the world didn’t end as many evangelicals believe it should have, either we have to say Peter (and the other apostles) lied, were nuts, or we have to adjust our view of what the end meant to them and try to understand it from their perspective.

Dispensationalist and futurist doctrine are the two main reasons why the tongues movement persists even though it ceased with the ministry of the apostles. People who continue to practice this “gift” are deluded.


44 posted on 06/15/2013 6:02:39 AM PDT by Stingray (Stand for the truth or you'll fall for anything.)
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To: Hot Tabasco
Pagan shamans (witch doctors) do essentially the same thing (speak in unknown utterances). Shamanism (/ˈʃɑːmən/ SHAH-mən or /ˈʃeɪmən/ SHAY-mən) is a practice that involves a practitioner reaching altered states of consciousness in order to encounter and interact with the spirit world.[2] A shaman is a person regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of benevolent and malevolent spirits, who typically enters into a trance state during a ritual, and practices divination and healing.[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism God wants people who worship Him in spirit and truth, not just spirit.
45 posted on 06/15/2013 6:11:59 AM PDT by Stingray (Stand for the truth or you'll fall for anything.)
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To: caww

As a spiritual gift, it is possible to communicate to man that which is already in scripture, but not being recognized in the present context.

God is not a god of confusion, though, so without the tongues being interpreted, they are good for nothingness, which is not an attribute of God.

1Co 14:27-33
(27) If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
(28) But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
(29) Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
(30) If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
(31) For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
(32) And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
(33) For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.


46 posted on 06/15/2013 6:14:33 AM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Hot Tabasco

I can see why. This guy has “FAKE” written all over him.


47 posted on 06/15/2013 7:07:18 AM PDT by BipolarBob (Jesus gave us His life, His Word and His Spirit.)
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To: boatbums
That gift was a special one designed to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to all nations - both those represented in Jerusalem that first Pentecost after the resurrection as well as the new believers spread throughout the world when the church began.

1Co_14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Right...And as you know, tongues were for a sign...A sign to the Jews...And since the Jews are blinded during this dispensation, there is no need for the sign of tongues...That's why Paul said the sign of tongues would decrease...

48 posted on 06/15/2013 11:08:37 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: circlecity
MacArthur has a dispensational eschatology so I'm not sure I'd call him a "traditional Calvinist".

One would certainly not classify him as a preterist, nor is he not charismatic (auto^matic=self-acting; charis^matic = grace-acting = Spirit-controlled).

There is a pejorative use of the word "charismatic" today that is not befitting its true meaning to describe the consistent behavior of regenerated believer-disciple-priests irreversibly bought by The Blood and The Word of Christ, The Anointed One.

49 posted on 06/15/2013 4:58:50 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Let the redeemed of The LORD say so, whom He hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy. (Ps. 107:2))
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To: SeekAndFind
From the article, Driscoll says:

He continued, "So, when do these gifts cease? When? When Jesus comes back, when we see him face to face. So the Cessationists are right: certain gifts will come to an end. But the Cessationists are wrong: the end has not yet come. And the Continuationists are right: all the gifts continue until we see him face to face, until Jesus comes again."

In contrast, MacArthur says:

Apostolic authority and the apostolic message needed no further confirmation. Before the first century ended, the entire New Testament had been written and was circulating through the churches.

Driscoll may not always be wrong, and MacArthur may not always be right; but in this Driscoll is very far wrong and departs from the grammar and exposition of the Koine Greek of the time of writing of Chapter 13 of this book to the arguing, disunified Corinthians. Very simply, the crux of the debate rests on gender and number of the two demonstrative pronouns "that" in verse 10. Here's the verse:

"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away" (AV, DRB leaves out 'then').

If the first "that" is masculine and singular, then it could refer to Jesus. If that were so, and Driscoll was correct in his exegesis, then the second "that" would have to refer to the "certain gifts," which then must refer logically to three spiritual categories--prophecies, tongues, and knowledge--summed up in the plural sense, either "spirituals" (v. 12:1), or "gifts" (v. 12:4); both of which are both neuter and plural.

However, in the text, both of these demonstrative pronouns are neuter, and both are singular. The conjugationof the verbs expresses the pronouns are third person singular. Therefore, in context, the reader would never have thought that the verse referred to The Christ or His perfection (and hence not the time of His second coming), nor to a plural number of items consisting of the temporary "spirituals". Driscoll's exposition spurns, if not scorns, the explicit grammar, and is worthy of further attention only because his theme does violence to the doctrines of how The God administers His People. The distraction and division of/in the churches today from this misinterpretation cannot come from The Holy Ghost.

Therefore, Driscoll can not be correct in any sense. On the other hand, MacArthur, in referring to doctrine of the presence of the complete, compiled, finalized, and shared, progressively revealed body of the Sayings of The God, The Word, The Hrema (neuter, singular), never to be diminished or embroidered, thus may certainly be correct in calling for the practicing of pseudo-gifts to stop.

Here is the way that I personally suggest that the first century Corinthian, Jew or Gentile, would have understood this verse had he interpreted it to us in the American English of our time:

"And/but whenever it has arrived--that completely finished thing--then that thing having partial quality shall become unuseful any more" (note that "partial" is anarthrous and imparts quality, not particularity, and is therefore singular).

That "thing" that has arrived is the completed anchor of The Faith, The Holy Bible, completely fit for the salvation of the populated world, and the guidance of The God's saints throughout Eternity.

The "thats" as used in 1 John 1:1 and 1:3 are both neuter and singular.

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; . . . That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full" (1 Jn. 1:1,3-4)(my emphasis)

I fully insist that John here in "that which" and "which" (singular, neuter) refers to the body of Sayings, the Rhema, about (peri) The Word of Life." These two demonstrative pronouns do not refer to Christ Himself. They refer to the body (soma) of accumulated and inspired sayings concerning Jesus ("these things," plural, neuter), making them neuter.

Now in this time, this era, this dispensation, there is no more special revelation occuring, no more prophecies originating from on High, since now that the Bible is not deficient in anything pertaining to The Faith, Its propagation, and administration. There are no Papal Bulls redefining the doctrines of The Old Sword. The Perfected Word is closed to any further amendment, and its content has been sealed since John, the Theologian, under The Holy Ghost's inspiration, laid down his pen. The Volume was then fully completed. It has been preserved through the ages by His appointed conveyance, the local churches, and need no Lower or Higher Criticism to synthesize a "newer" and "better" apograph.

There is no more need for vocal communication of sounds not even known by man through objective grammar--they ceased for lack of need or use and have long been forgotten. Today's attempts to resuscitate them is spurious, not encouraged by The Author or His Spirit.

There is no "word of knowledge." The God has done away with that, since The Indwelling Holy Spirit has activated spiritual discernment in the maturing disciple to both interpret and wisely apply the counsel of the Will of The God, through dreading to disappoint or disobey His commandments, and by walking in His Ways with Him (Ps. 128:1). That is, there is no extra-Biblical supernatural implantation of information not already supplied in His Fully and Completely Finished Word. Anything else has been negated. Forever.

50 posted on 06/15/2013 8:13:03 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Let the redeemed of The LORD say so, whom He hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy. (Ps. 107:2))
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