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'Cessationists Are Wrong' About Speaking in Tongues, Says Pastor Mark Driscoll
Christian Post ^ | 06/14/2013 | Nicola Menzie

Posted on 06/14/2013 10:49:52 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

Pastor Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill Church in Seattle, Wash., recently spoke on the gift of tongues as described in the New Testament as part of his "Acts: Empowered for Jesus' Mission" sermon series. The conservative Reformed, or New Calvinist, Christian minister laid out his arguments as to why he believes the gift of speaking in tongues did not end with Jesus' apostles in the first century.

Cessationists, such as influential pastor and traditional Calvinist John MacArthur, believe that 1 Corinthians 13:8 and other Biblical passages indicate that the divine ability to speak in other languages or an unknown tongue (glossolalia) ended with the apostles' deaths, as did prophetic revelations and faith-healings through individuals. Some Christians, however, believe that these Holy Spirit-inspired gifts will continue until Christ's return.

In the sermon excerpt shared online this week by Mars Hill Church, Pastor Driscoll tackles three "common questions about the gift of tongues," listed as: "Can every Christian have the gift of tongues? Does Mars Hill Church believe that the gift of tongues is for today? And what happens when the private use of tongues goes public?"

Before diving into his responses, Driscoll insisted that the only way to know who may be "right" or "wrong" about speaking in tongues was by studying the Scriptures — and "not by taking our experience and making it normative."

Although the key text for the full sermon, titled "Empowered by the Spirit to Follow Jesus," was the account of Pentecost in Acts 2:1-13, the megachurch pastor and bestselling author looked to 1 Corinthians 12:8-11 to help frame his responses.

Driscoll relayed a part of the passage: "'For to one is given through the Spirit . . . various kinds of tongues' — or languages, heavenly or earthly — 'to another, the interpretation of tongues' — the ability to articulate in the other language what has been said in the foreign language. 'All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.'"

In regard to whether Mars Hill Church believes that the gift of tongues is an ongoing occurrence, Driscoll stated his agreement with cessationism, while also asking the congregation to consider life in heaven.

"When we get to heaven, the gift of evangelism is not going to be as needed as it is now. You're like, 'I'm going to go out and find the lost people.' There aren't any. This is the kingdom of God. Everybody here already loves Jesus. ... So, evangelism comes to an end," he said, according to the sermon transcript.

He noted 1 Corinthians 13:8-12, which reads: "Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known."

"So, we agree with the Cessationists that yes, certain gifts, at least, they're going to cease. They're going to cease," added Driscoll. "Where we disagree with the Cessationists and we agree with the Continuationists is when they cease. We believe that all of the gifts continue until one very important transitionary moment in the history of the world."

He continued, "So, when do these gifts cease? When? When Jesus comes back, when we see him face to face. So the Cessationists are right: certain gifts will come to an end. But the Cessationists are wrong: the end has not yet come. And the Continuationists are right: all the gifts continue until we see him face to face, until Jesus comes again."

The full sermon, third so far in Driscoll's 10-part series, "Acts: Empowered for Jesus' Mission," is available on Mars Hill Church's website. Driscoll, 42, preached "Empowered by the Spirit to Follow Jesus" on June 9, 2013, at the megachurch's Bellevue, Wash., location.

Some Cessationists, such as Pastor John MacArthur, whose The Master's Seminary shares the same campus as his Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, Calif., agree with Driscoll's suggestion that the "perfect" referenced in 1 Corinthians 13:10 speaks of a future eternal state, a period precipitated by Christ's earthly return. However, the evangelical Christian minister points to other passages he believes serve as strong evidence that "tongues ceased in the apostolic age." Cessationists also argue that the completion of the New Testament writings made the continuation of charismatic spiritual gifts unnecessary. Christians in general, though, believe that the Bible teaches that other spiritual gifts, such as teaching, exhortation, discernment and others, are always present to believers.

"Miracle gifts like tongues and healing are mentioned only in 1 Corinthians, an early epistle. Two later epistles, Ephesians and Romans, both discuss gifts of the Spirit at length — but no mention is made of the miraculous gifts," explains an adaptation of MacArthur's 1992 book Charismatic Chaos, published on the theologian's Grace to You (GTY) ministry website. "By that time miracles were already looked on as something in the past (Heb. 2:3-4). Apostolic authority and the apostolic message needed no further confirmation. Before the first century ended, the entire New Testament had been written and was circulating through the churches."

He adds, "The revelatory gifts had ceased to serve any purpose. And when the apostolic age ended with the death of the Apostle John, the signs that identified the apostles had already become moot (cf. 2 Cor. 12:12)."

Listing further Biblical evidence, the GTY.org writing suggests that "tongues were intended as a sign to unbelieving Israel (1 Cor. 14:21-22; cf. Is. 28:11-12). They signified that God had begun a new work that encompassed the Gentiles. The Lord would now speak to all nations in all languages. The barriers were down. And so the gift of languages symbolized not only the curse of God on a disobedient nation, but also the blessing of God on the whole world."

The final Scriptural support given identifies the gift of tongues as "inferior to other gifts" and something that was "given primarily as a sign (1 Cor. 14:22) and was also easily misused to edify self (1 Cor. 14:4)."

"The church meets for the edification of the body, not self-gratification or personal experience-seeking. Therefore, tongues had limited usefulness in the church, and so it was never intended to be a permanent gift," concludes the GTY.org resource titled "The Gift of Tongues." MacArthur, who will tackle the issue in his upcoming Strange Fire conference, reiterates that view in a recent excerpt of his commentary on 1 Corinthians, in which he calls the gift of tongues "(t)he most controversial spiritual gift in our day."


TOPICS: Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: cessationists; driscoll; holyspirit; markdriscoll; megachurch; pastor; seattle; tounges
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To: HangnJudge

Amen!


21 posted on 06/14/2013 11:58:34 AM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: Truth2012
"Any Christian, who has attended a Messianic service understands what 'speaking in tongues' is all about."

Can you elaborate on that comment? I'm honestly curious as to what you're talking about.

22 posted on 06/14/2013 12:08:59 PM PDT by ducttape45
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To: cuban leaf
If you want to argue something really juicy and with more scriptural evidence, how about Saul using a medium to conjure up Samuel, the dead Samuel’s comments, and the context of what the bible says about what happens to people after they die?

What are the books and versus where this is mentioned? Thank you.

23 posted on 06/14/2013 12:11:24 PM PDT by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
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To: ducttape45

Yes. I would be glad to. I have contemplated what speaking in tongues is all about. I have visited churches where people openly pray in public, in tongues, and over the years I have come to the conclusion that this idea of a secret prayer language in the charismatic church is a trick of the mind.

It was not until I , as a Christian, attended a Messianic congregation that I understood that ancient Hebrew is the sound that the Lord meant.

The services about Jesus in Hebrew are eye opening.


24 posted on 06/14/2013 12:20:02 PM PDT by Truth2012
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To: SeekAndFind

Gobbledygook mumbo-jumbospeak.

Audible insanity is what speaking in tongues is all about.


25 posted on 06/14/2013 12:36:04 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: Lx

1 Samuel 28, starting in vs 3 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20samuel%2028&version=NIV

I listen to the bible on my android through my car stereo most days on my way to and from work. It is a 2.5 hour round trip so I get heavy “single session” doses of the bible. I’m on 2 Samuel now but this whole visit to the medium was fascinating. You rarely hear sermons on it. ;-)


26 posted on 06/14/2013 12:40:20 PM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Read Corinthians. You cannot help but see that the “unknown” tongues are nothing but foreign languages. Nothing more.


27 posted on 06/14/2013 1:11:40 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Sometimes you need 7+ more ammo. LOTS MORE.)
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To: Sloth

The thing about speaking in tongues is that anyone can do it if they enter into an ecstatic state. You don’t have to be a Christian or to even believe in God. The hard part is to decipher the source of the behavior.


28 posted on 06/14/2013 1:25:12 PM PDT by CityCenter (Pleading the 5th is just so 1972.)
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To: Lx; cuban leaf

I would be careful in reading that instance as Samuel actually rising up. From the illustrious Matthew Henry’s commentary on those verses:

The spectre, or apparition, personating Samuel, asks why he is sent for (1Sa_28:15): Why hast thou disquieted me to bring me up? To us this discovers that it was an evil spirit that personated Samuel; for (as bishop Patrick observes) it is not in the power of witches to disturb the rest of good men and to bring them back into the world when they please; nor would the true Samuel have acknowledged such a power in magical arts: but to Saul this was a proper device of Satan’s, to draw veneration from him, to possess him with an opinion of the power of divination, and so to rivet him in the devil’s interests.

II. Saul makes his complaint to this counterfeit Samuel, mistaking him for the true; and a most doleful complaint it is: “I am sorely distressed, and know not what to do, for the Philistines make war against me; yet I should do well enough with them if I had but the tokens of God’s presence with me; but, alas! God has departed from me.” He complained not of God’s withdrawings till he fell into trouble, till the Philistines made war against him, and then he began to lament God’s departure. He that in his prosperity enquired not after God in his adversity thought it hard that God answered him not, nor took any notice of his enquiries, either by dreams or prophets, neither gave answers immediately himself nor sent them by any of his messengers. He does not, like a penitent, own the righteousness of God in this; but, like a man enraged, flies out against God as unkind and flies off from him: Therefore I have called thee; as if Samuel, a servant of God, would favour those whom God frowned upon, or as if a dead prophet could do him more service than the living ones. One would think, from this, that he really desired to meet with the devil, and expected no other (though under the covert of Samuel’s name), for he desires advice otherwise than from God, therefore from the devil, who is a rival with God. “God denies me, therefore I come to thee. Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.” - If I fail with heaven, I will move hell.

III. It is cold comfort which this evil spirit in Samuel’s mantle gives to Saul, and is manifestly intended to drive him to despair and self-murder. Had it been the true Samuel, when Saul desired to be told what he should do he would have told him to repent and make his peace with God, and recall David from his banishment, and would then have told him that he might hope in this way to find mercy with God; but, instead of that, he represents his case as helpless and hopeless, serving him as he did Judas, to whom he was first a tempter and then a tormentor, persuading him first to sell his master and then to hang himself. 1. He upbraids him with his present distress (1Sa_28:16), tells him, not only that God had departed from him, but that he had become his enemy, and therefore he must expect no comfortable answer from him: “Wherefore dost thou ask me? How can I be thy friend when God is thy enemy, or thy counsellor when he has left thee?” 2. He upbraids him with the anointing of David to the kingdom, 1Sa_28:17. He could not have touched upon a string that sounded more unpleasant in the ear of Saul than this. Nothing is said to reconcile him to David, but all tends rather to exasperate him against David and widen the breach. Yet, to make him believe that he was Samuel, the apparition affirmed that it was God who spoke by him. The devil knows how to speak with an air of religion, and can teach false apostles to transform themselves into the apostles of Christ and imitate their language. Those who use spells and charms, and plead, in defence of them, that they find nothing in them but what is good, may remember what good words the devil here spoke, and yet with what a malicious design. 3. He upbraids him with his disobedience to the command of God in not destroying the Amalekites, 1Sa_28:18. Satan had helped him to palliate and excuse that sin when Samuel was dealing with him to bring him to repentance, but now he aggravates it, to make him despair of God’s mercy. See what those get that hearken to Satan’s temptations. He himself will be their accuser, and insult over them. And see whom those resemble that allure others to that which is evil and reproach them for it when they have done. 4. He foretels his approaching ruin, 1Sa_28:19. (1.) That his army should be routed by the Philistines. This is twice mentioned: The Lord shall deliver Israel into the hand of the Philistines. This he might foresee, by considering the superior strength and number of the Philistines, the weakness of the armies of Israel, Saul’s terror, and especially God’s departure from them. Yet, to personate a prophet, he very gravely ascribes it once and again to God: The Lord shall do it. (2.) That he and his sons should be slain in the battle: Tomorrow, that is, in a little time (and, supposing that it was now after midnight, I see not but it may be taken strictly for the very next day after that which had now begun), thou and thy sons shall be with me, that is, in the state of the dead, separate from the body. Had this been the true Samuel, he could not have foretold the event unless God had revealed it to him; and, though it were an evil spirit, God might by him foretel it; as we read of an evil spirit that foresaw Ahab’s fall at Ramoth-Gilead and was instrumental in it (1Ki_22:20, etc.), as perhaps this evil spirit was, by the divine permission, in Saul’s destruction. That evil spirit flattered Ahab, this frightened Saul, and both that they might fall; so miserable are those that are under the power of Satan; for, whether he rage or laugh, there is no rest, Pro_29:9.


29 posted on 06/14/2013 1:28:20 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: trebb

Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 1 Corinthians 13:8-10

Paul wrote that when the perfect came the partial would cease.

The “perfect” came in 70 AD, when the partial - the Law - was finally and forever done away with in the destruction of the Temple (the “reformation” of Hebrews 9).

I would strongly urge all to read the book of Hebrews to understand the significance of what the imperfect vs. the perfect meant.


30 posted on 06/14/2013 1:50:24 PM PDT by Stingray (Stand for the truth or you'll fall for anything.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Thank you. I agree. I like to bring this stuff up to discuss and also refute wnat the overt satans say/do. You answered some of my questions and demonstrated that there can often be wisdom hidden in plain sight in the bible. Your post also makes me think that this should be the subject of sermons more often.


31 posted on 06/14/2013 1:50:46 PM PDT by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: Sloth; sargon
1 Cor 14:18,19

"I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue."

Paul points out the differences in using tongues in private vs. public settings.

In private he speaks in tongues more than anyone presumably for self-edification.

But in church the tongues should be interpreted for the benefit of others.

32 posted on 06/14/2013 3:27:37 PM PDT by what's up
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To: Stingray

On other words, the apostolic understanding of perfect vs. imperfect is canonized in the book of Hebrews.


33 posted on 06/14/2013 3:56:45 PM PDT by Stingray (Stand for the truth or you'll fall for anything.)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
Read Corinthians. You cannot help but see that the “unknown” tongues are nothing but foreign languages. Nothing more.

They appear to be foreign languages...

But then,,,, Paul says, 'tho I speak in tongues of men AND ANGELS,!!! What is that???

My conclusion based on 'not much' is that Adam was gifted with a language not only to speak to God with but his descendents as well...And I conclude from the verse that angels can converse with an actual language...

I have also concluded this language is probably Hebrew...

I find no language in the scriptures that justifies speaking in what Charismatics call tongues...

34 posted on 06/14/2013 6:01:37 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Tax-chick
Why is any one person so concerned about how any other person speaks to God? We’re His children. If He doesn’t want us to pray any particular way, He can say, “Shut up and go to sleep now, already.”

LOL! I honestly don't care what goes on between a person and God, because, If the person is sincere, God WILL teach him how to pray. Sometimes that may involve being still and knowing God. The concern I have over the so-called gift of tongues in use today is when people insist that, in order to be saved, one must be "filled with the Spirit" or "baptized in the Spirit" - demonstrated by "speaking in tongues". They make this a mandatory exhibition and actually question a person's sincerity if he doesn't "get" this gift. To me, that is wrong and cannot be proved by Scripture. Paul even said in Corinthians that not everyone gets the same gifts, so that means the one who didn't speak in tongues was no less a real Christian than one who did.

35 posted on 06/14/2013 9:14:13 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: sinatorhellary
Amen! Some of the stuff that many modern Charismatic televangelists say Jesus revealed to them personally is often anti-scriptural and, sometimes, utter lunacy. Yet, their “flock” is expected to believe it because he has “the gift”. Scripture said prophecy would stop and I believe that the Apostle John was the last prophet for this age.
36 posted on 06/14/2013 9:20:56 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Stingray; trebb
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 1 Corinthians 13:8-10

I've had people tell me that their gift of tongues was a heavenly language and that the Holy Spirit was praying through them "in words that cannot be uttered". They insisted that ALL Christians should pray in the Spirit - but to them that means we all should speak in tongues. I believe the Scripture you posted disproves that contention since Paul says that these "tongues" would cease. I imagine that in heaven we will all be able to understand each other no matter what our native language was while here on earth and there will be no deaf or mutes there, either. Therefore, the heavenly language is NOT the same thing as the tongues/unknown language God gifted to those first century believers. That gift was a special one designed to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to all nations - both those represented in Jerusalem that first Pentecost after the resurrection as well as the new believers spread throughout the world when the church began.

37 posted on 06/14/2013 9:59:13 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: trebb
Preachers like that woman you mentioned are doing exactly what the Apostle Paul scolded the Corinthian believers for doing. They were “showing-off” and using what was meant as a tool to preach the Gospel to unbelievers for their own personal pride....and we know how God thinks about pride.
38 posted on 06/14/2013 10:02:07 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

Hi boatbums- I just read all your comments on this thread. Those were wise words.


39 posted on 06/15/2013 12:01:00 AM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: johngrace

Thank you. I cherish the times we can agree. :o)


40 posted on 06/15/2013 12:14:13 AM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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