Skip to comments.Circum-Decision
Posted on 06/14/2013 5:27:08 PM PDT by Former Fetus
The mystique of Bris Milah is as old as Judaism itself. Throughout the generations, this mitzvah has been the pilot light, making sure that our spark would never be extinguished. For no matter how high the assimilation rate would rise, the importance of Bris, the seal of a covenant with God dating back to Abraham, was never questioned. Bris remained sacred to Jews of all stripes.
But now, for the first time in our history, that reassuring flame has begun to flicker.
"My husband and I are both Jewish, not practicing in the traditional sense, and we are debating whether to circumcise our son, soon-to-be born. We both have some problems with circumcision, and are researching a Jewish organization that opposes circumcision."
So speaks a young American woman on a popular radio talk show, sharing her willingness to give up a 3,000-year-old legacy, based on the little she knows about the procedure, and almost nothing about its meaning.
Yes, this woman may represent a negligible minority. But anti-circumcision literature is proliferating rapidly through the Internet and on the airwaves, planting thoughts in people's minds. Here is one example, which would be comical if it weren't so sad, from "Mothering" magazine:
Last year a baby boy was born to Jewish parents. The parents wanted to give the child a Bris without inflicting the pain of circumcision. On the eighth day friends were invited to their home. A friend who is a rabbinical student read the appropriate scriptures, blessed the child with a Hebrew name, and at the time of circumcision, a large organic carrot was produced and the tip severed. It was a joyous moment for all involved... Perhaps this is the alternative some of you may have been looking for.
(Excerpt) Read more at virtualjerusalem.com ...
seems pretty clear to me.
...The Midrash at the beginning of Shemos (The Book of Exodus) tells us that the bondage in Egypt only started after the Jews stopped circumcising themselves.
The Jews wanted to identify with the Egyptians and the rest of the world who were not circumcised. At that moment Pharaoh plotted and initiated the bondage - thus enslaving the Jews until their time of redemption. G-d allowed the events to evolve and unfold as they did because the decision of the Jews to be in an uncircumcised state...
Son, I have one word for you: smegma. ‘nuff said.
The Eighth Day:
Why is the circumcision preformed specifically on the 8th day? Scientific research has proven that on the 8th day of a babys life his blood clots at its fastest rate. Until the 8th and from the 9th the clotting is slower, rendering the 8th day the best possible day in a human beings life to circumcise. Some claim that this is why Hashem commanded us to perform the circumcision on this day, in order to preserve the babys health in the best way possible; however can we indeed claim that this is the REASON we circumcise on the 8th day, or the reverse true? Hashem ensured that the clotting reach its peak on this day, because this was the day we would have to circumcise? If so, we are back to square one - what is the reason which binds the circumcision specifically to the 8th day of a babys life?
Bravo - taking things out of context and across covenants. You cite and Old Covenant dictate. Perhaps you didn't notice how, in the New Covenant, such that continued circumcision as a way to "be obedient" were among those who were chastised for "falling from Grace" for trying to prove their worthiness in the face of the Savior's sacrifice. The New Covenant was a game changer.
Eph 2:12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Speaking to the “former” gentiles, Paul stands in opposition and says that it is you who are taking his words out of context. Do you even know what these covenants of promise are that we are now heirs to through Messiah? Paul doesn't say we are brought into something new, he states that we are now brought near to that which already existed.
And of course let us not forget, the “new” covenant is not really new, it is simply “renewed” as the actual covenant does not change, only the location from stone to hearts of flesh is made. This covenant also states that it is for the house of Judah and the house of Israel(the scattered sheep) and it is when the two are brought back together that the covenant will be fulfilled.
Religious talking points will be the demise of many just as political talking points become the eventual downfall of many because they know not that which they purport to speak of.
We’re not Jewish but we have a son, and I did research on this when expecting him. Among Gentiles in the US, it became popular during the Victorian era, IIRC, because it was thought that this would control boys’ urges and make them less horny in their teen years.
In the 20th Century, it grew more popular in the baby boomer years. My older three brothers, at the beginning of the boomer years, were not circumcised. By the time the later two boys came along, it was standard procedure for all boys. Now the practice is being reconsidered again.
Crown Prince Charles Circumcised by London Mohel London (JTA) Crown Prince Charles, son of Princess Elizabeth and heir to the British throne, was circumcised in Buckingham Palace by Rev. Jacob Snowman, official Mohel of the London Jewish community, the Mizrachi News Bureau reported. Rev. Snowman, who is a noted Jewish scholar specializing in the poetry of Bialik, has been ritual circumciser in London for many years.
Interesting! Under what circumstances would the mother not be considered impure?
Interesting study. Thanks for the link.
Circumcision is a Divine commandment to all Jewish fathers concerning all Jewish sons. Unfortunately, since you can’t talk about Divine commandments in public without sounding like Sarah Palin, the “official Jewish leadership” is going to try to make it a “like, it’s our thing, man” issue out of it.
In BB King’s autobiography, there’s a chapter called “Circumcision is no laughing matter.” He suffered from infections and was circumcised as an adult. It stopped the infections.
Maybe there’s some benefits, but he said he would have rather had it when he was an infant.
Perhaps it is not I that don't understand the import of the New Covenant that even God said would be a New Covenant (read Jeremiah and then call me mistaken).
The New Covenant is in fact a game changer and taking a single phrase or two without keeping proper context is no argument that will change it.
BTW - if you put in Eph 2:11 first, it helps make my point:
11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called uncircumcised by those who call themselves the circumcision (which is done in the body by human hands) 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
You must have known that the original topic was circumcision (else, why omit that single line in your post?) and those "Illuminati" that think it is still a requirement are sorely mistaken.
Does the Son say He and the Father are one?
Is not there only one household of God?
If the goal of what Paul is speaking of in Eph is to bring all into that one household, then how could the Son teach that the two are to remain separated?
If God says something is right and a sign of a covenant, can it ever be wrong and a sign of breaking covenant?
If God says something is wrong and an abomination to Him, can that something ever be right?
Some folks seem to place religious doctrine above the message because they need reason to believe in the doctrine more than in the message. One of the reasons I don't like religion and tend to agree with those that maintain it is sinful.
In this, the words of Messiah are true when He said in Matthew 15, verse 24;
But He answered and said, I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
In John 10 Messiah said that other sheep He has that are not of that fold, that fold being the house of Judah that He was directly speaking to in the land of Judea.
Paul quotes the Prophets often and he didn't leave that custom of his out of Eph 2 when he, Paul, said;
17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.
This is a direct quote from Isaiah 57:19, I create the fruit of the lips: Peace, peace to him who is far off and to him who is near, says YHVH, And I will heal him.
Paul oft refers us also back to Hosea who reveals that the lost sheep of Israel would become to look and act like the nations because of the false prophets that lead them.
Hosea 8:11 Because Ephraim has made many altars for sin, they have become for him altars for sinning. 12 I have written for him the great things of My law, but they were considered a strange thing.
Many wanted to make the lost sheep be circumcised as a requirement for salvation, but circumcision has never been a requirement for salvation, but rather a sign of being a member of a covenant just as baptism is a sign of being a member of a covenant.
Paul states in Eph 2 that those who come to Messiah are not heirs of all the covenants of promise made with our fathers Abraham, Isaac & Israel (Jacob). And this is why Paul circumcised Timothy, because Timothy was called to teach and to teach, Timothy was convicted to be circumcised according to the covenant of promise he was now an heir to.
And that is the crux of the entire dialog of Acts 15, that one sect in verse 1 was teaching that circumcision was a requirement for salvation and the other sect, the believing sect in verse 5 was saying that it was a required as a sign of being a member of the covenant and body of Messiah. It was all cleared up in verse 21&22 when James said that these lost sheep, called gentiles, would hear Moses every Sabbath and in hearing they would come to understand and then do what Moses wrote, just as Messiah said would happen in Mt 23:1-3. This is called the ‘shema’ which is Dt 6:4-9 and which every Christian pastor is very familiar with. Shema means to hear and do, not just hear as to just hear is nothing because the fruit, our fruit we are to produce, is shown in the doing. Therefore, Messiah said,
Mt 7:20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
He is the vine, we are the branches and if He as obedient unto death, so too are we to be if He is truly in us and we in Him. The branches do not determine the fruit, it is the vine that determines the fruit and that vine's roots are the Word of God that feeds the vine which feeds the branches.
Faith is not a religion, faith is a walk of life and He set before us two paths, the Way of the Father (Ps 119:1) and the way of death (Prov 14:12, 16:25). The choice is ours, blessing and life or evil(lawlessness) and death. And His Way has always contained the connection to Messiah as the Son came to do in the flesh, that which had already been done from the beginning.
Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Abraham knew the Lamb, Moses knew the Lamb. How is this if they had never known or seen the Lamb as Scripture tells us that they did?
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.
Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaohs daughter, 25 choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26 esteeming the reproach of Messiah greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.
Ex 33:18 And he said, Please, show me Your glory. 19 Then He said, I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the YHVH before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
John 3:13 And no one has gone up into the heaven except He who came down from the heaven the Son of Aḏam.
John 5:37 And the Father who sent Me, He bore witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
Mat 11:27 All have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and he to whom the Son wishes to reveal Him.
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
John 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and makes alive, even so the Son makes alive whom He wishes. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has given all the judgment to the Son
Until one understands that it has been the Son all along, the Son who comes in the name of YHVH, then whether one be Jew or gentile, that one remains blind in part and lacks understanding of the plan and the promises of the Father given to us through the Son, the Word of God, the Voice of God.
Isa 8:14 He will be as a sanctuary, But a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense To both the houses of Israel,(see Rm 11 & Eph 2) as a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Wow...wow...You couldn’t be more wrong if you tried. The “purpose of Ephesians is the bringing the two houses of Rm 11, the gentiles being the house of Gen 48:19, back together into one new man in and through Messiah...” Since the one new man Paul speaks of is a MYSTERY, kept SECRET SINCE the world began, hid in God from the foundation of the world, and planned by Him from BEFORE the foundation of the world until revealed to the Apostle Paul, explain how, from the Scriptures, Gen. 48:19 brings Jew and Gentile “back together”...
Those who see no disctinction between Israel and the church are in for a big surprise.
Maybe theres some benefits, but he said he would have rather had it when he was an infant.
My mother told me her older brother had to be circumcised as a teen and was in agony for days from it. She and all her siblings were born at home so it was not cone.
A good friend told me that her father demanded that all the sons and grandsons be circumcised. It was not done in the old country and during the war (WW1 I think) the rate of infection and gangrene was unbelievable among the uncircumcised men.
That would be enough for me. Gangrene?!?! Eeewww!!
Hey, Former Fetus.
Not sure I understand your question in regards to my post’s subject. I’m going to assume that you delved further into the material at the link than did I. I just searched out a reference to the 8th day blood clotting part because it stuck in my mind and I was fascinated by it. YHWH never fails to fascinate.
But, I know the dangers of assuming. Please correct me and help me understand your question.
Micah 5:2 But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.
Now go read the rest of Micah 5, Jacob who is Israel is in the midst of the nations as if she is eaten up by them, she walks, talks and acts like them because she has forgotten her Maker and His Law is a strange thing to her as we read in Hosea.
He was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, but then as Paul says, not all Israel is Israel because God's house is not made up of the seed of man, but of the seed of Messiah, the seed of the woman who is the bride of Messiah and who the promise of Gen 3:15 given to, just as it was given to Sarah, not to Hagar.
Paul speaks of grafting in and then warns those grafted in not to boast against the natural branch. Why? Because Messiah said that salvation comes from the Jews. Paul says to Judah first, why? Because to Judah was given the promise of the eternal scepter, the Law holder of the Father, the one who is to rule and judge rightly by the Word of God, not adding to and not taking away, but ruling according to all that God has said and written.
God only has one house. He named that house Israel and so all who come to join His house, join the house of Israel which is neither Jew or gentile. Caleb was born a Canaanite, so how did he become a member of Judah? Because he wholly followed God's commands because he had a different spirit within him, God's spirit of truth. Of all the adult males of the tribe of Judah who left Egypt, the only one who entered the Promised Land was the one who was grafted in, not the one who was born of the seed of man, but the one of the seed of Messiah. Yes there were those of the physical seed of Judah who entered, but all those had been born in the wilderness. There was only a remnant who left Egypt who entered into the Promised Land and that remnant was Joshua that natural branch and Caleb the grafted branch, both who wholly followed the commands of God because they wholly believed in the promise of Messiah and eternal life.
Have you never read Hebrews 3-4 and how those who died in the wilderness never enter into His rest? Into His eternal kingdom? Have you never read in 1Cor 10 where Paul says that those in the wilderness became examples of disobedience that we are to learn from?
John 3:36 He that believeth in the Son, hath everlasting life, and he that obeyeth not the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.
As it was for them in the wilderness, so it is true for us, as to them the Gospel message was first given, which because it was not mixed with faith that God will deliver on all the promises He made, only a remnant actually received the reward of the promise and entered the Promised Land. The Promise Land then being a shadow and type of the Promised Land to come at Messiah's return.
Well, if one actually reads and studies the chapters that come before Rm 11, then one knows that Paul is speaking of Rm 7 in which I might add, that unless you understand the Law of God, he, Paul, is not speaking to you.
Rm 7:1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? ... but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Messiah, that you may be married to anotherto Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
And why was this a big deal to those Paul was speaking to?
Jer 3:8 Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel had committed adultery, I had put her away and given her a certificate of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but went and played the harlot also.
Law Concerning Divorce
Dt:24 When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some uncleanness in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house, 2 when she has departed from his house, and goes and becomes another mans wife, 3 if the latter husband detests her and writes her a certificate of divorce, puts it in her hand, and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies who took her as his wife, 4 then her former husband who divorced her must not take her back to be his wife after she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the Lord, and you shall not bring sin on the land which the YHVH your God is giving you as an inheritance.
So because they, the lost sheep, the ones who went spiritually whoring by worshiping according to what was right in their own eyes rather than according to the Way God commanded them to worship Him, they were banned from returning and had remained under the eternal curse of the Law of divorce, which is death. But God being a merciful God and not taking pleasure in the death of any man, God provided a way for them to enter back into His house.
And that is the “Good News”, that through Messiah, the lost sheep who had become the “fullness” of the gentiles, was freed from the curse of the Law by the redeeming blood of Messiah. They are now able to enter back into the household of God and be partakers in all the covenants of promise.
Gal 3:13 Messiah has redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Messiah Yeshua, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Leviticus 12:1-5 --> "Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, Speak to the children of Israel, saying: If a woman has conceived, and borne a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days; as in the days of her customary impurity she shall be unclean. And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. She shall then continue in the blood of her purification thirty-three days. She shall not touch any hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary until the days of her purification are fulfilled". But if she bears a female child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her customary impurity, and she shall continue in the blood of her purification sixty-six days.
Is there an alternative to bearing a boy or a girl? Just wondering!
This is pretty esoteric stuff, but the reference is to cesarean section. It’s slightly more clear in the original source:
Thanks, I would have never thought of that.
Thanks for the reply, Former Fetus. Tomorrow I will read the link jjotto provided. Thanks, Jjotto.
Looks very interesting. Please let me know if you come about the answer to your question.