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Under the Roman Sky (film details heroic efforts of Pius XII to save Jews of Rome from the Nazis)
The American Catholic ^ | Donald R. McClarey

Posted on 06/15/2013 4:03:11 PM PDT by NYer

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To: ansel12

We being referred to as ‘Protestant America’ in the prior post.

John Hancock has no idea what is discussed here either.


51 posted on 06/15/2013 10:39:49 PM PDT by rwilson99 (Please tell me how the words "shall not perish and have everlasting life" would NOT apply to Mary.)
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To: rwilson99

Sorry, but searching for things that aren’t there just wastes everyone’s time.


52 posted on 06/15/2013 10:53:14 PM PDT by ansel12 (Social liberalism/libertarianism, empowers, creates and imports, and breeds, economic liberals.)
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To: ansel12; Religion Moderator; narses

**The Catholics and Jews voted about the same for JFK, 80 and 82%.

The Catholics and Jews both always loved and voted for FDR, until he finally died as our only American ‘President for life’.

So isn’t just the Jews who loved those guys.**

It has been discussed on a thread about slandering Catholics that blanket statements such as these are not acceptable.

Can you use a qualifier word? “Some” Catholics? “Some” Jews, a “few” Catholics, a “few Jews??

Even the word “many” would help, “many” Catholics, “many” Jews.


53 posted on 06/15/2013 11:03:55 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

This is the way that you interpret everything? Do you think that American Jews are all voting for a Kennedy?

To: NYer
The Catholic POPE did 1000 times more than AMERICAN JEWS did to help Jews during the Holocaust!! And the American JEWS VOTE FOR THE KENNEDY’s whose patriarch was a NAZI SUPPORTER!!!
4 posted on 6/15/2013 4:09:55 PM by Ann Archy


54 posted on 06/15/2013 11:12:15 PM PDT by ansel12 (Social liberalism/libertarianism, empowers, creates and imports, and breeds, economic liberals.)
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To: ansel12
“We did defeat the Soviet Union over a 75 year period”

During the 75 year period you discuss the politicians in the U.S. were supporting the former Soviet Union most of the time either openly or covertly.

The Communist government was bankrupt and its economy had failed so badly it was on the brink of collapse when the FDR Administration recognized the former Soviet Union and began supporting it in 1933. FDR's Administration was pro Soviet.

The Soviet military received the atomic bomb, the MIG jet and most of their technology from the United States. Communists in the American government assured that. The Truman Administration facilitated the expansion of the Soviet Union into Eastern Europe and helped the Communists take over China. Truman admired Stalin and compared him to Tom Pendergast the Kansas City criminal and Democrat boss who was Truman's mentor and father figure and who took Truman from a failed and bankrupt storekeeper to a politician and eventually Senator.

The Truman Administration worked with the communists to take over South Korea and hopefully eventually Japan. When MacArthur's outnumbered, underequiped army defeated them with minimal casualties MacArhur was fired and the army was left to fight under rules of engagement that assured heavy casualties and no victory. Truman was about to surrender South Korea through negotiations when he left the presidency.

The U.S. State Department facilitated Castro's rise in Cuba and murdered South Vietnamese President Diem who had defeated the Communists. The Americans then undermined the governments of South Vietnam and worked to get the U.S. to unconditionally surrender. After Nixon carpet bombed North Vietnam to finally get a truce the U.S. government withdrew all support for South Vietnam and allowed the North Vietnamese to win.

The U.S. propped up the failed Soviet economy throughout the 1970’s. The Carter Administration helped the communists win victory after victory from central America to Afghanistan.

Only when Reagan became president did the U.S. begin to oppose the Communism and the Soviet evil empire. Reagan, Thatcher and Pope John Paul defeated the Communists. Most U.S. politicians tried to undermine Reagan and sabotage his efforts.

The whole 75 year war you speak of simply never existed.

55 posted on 06/16/2013 2:05:06 AM PDT by detective
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To: detective

Well, good luck with all that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpPoBroNGdM&feature=related


56 posted on 06/16/2013 2:16:59 AM PDT by ansel12 (Social liberalism/libertarianism, empowers, creates and imports, and breeds, economic liberals.)
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To: ansel12

ah, but FDR didn’t send Catholics back to Nazi Germany to be KILLED.


57 posted on 06/16/2013 2:37:21 AM PDT by Ann Archy (Abortion.....the HUMAN Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: detective
The people who put their lives on the line in the US Armed forces during those 75 years may not look exclusively at the "big picture" when at their level those who died in combat, in accidents while doing intrinsically dangerous things, and even in training, are every bit as dead as anyone who died in any other war.

Equating the corrupt leadership working to betray our Constitution with the millions who served in good faith to preserve our Constitution is a major mistake. One easy to make when you take the "academic" view but one those faithful patriots who served cannot ignore.

At least that's the way I see it.

58 posted on 06/16/2013 2:39:36 AM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: Ann Archy

What in the world are you talking about?


59 posted on 06/16/2013 2:41:38 AM PDT by ansel12 (Social liberalism/libertarianism, empowers, creates and imports, and breeds, economic liberals.)
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To: ansel12

I’m just answering your post to me.


60 posted on 06/16/2013 2:49:45 AM PDT by Ann Archy (Abortion.....the HUMAN Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: ansel12
This thread is about Pope Pius rescuing the Jews during WWII. When you are done hijacking the thread please try and get back to the topic. If you really want to discuss Catholics in Mexico go to the link that was posted or start your own revisionist thread.

Please note I am asking this politely.

61 posted on 06/16/2013 4:42:03 AM PDT by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: Rashputin

“Equating the corrupt leadership working to betray our Constitution with the millions who served in good faith to preserve our Constitution is a major mistake”

I never equated corrupt leadership with those who served in good faith. I was trying to teach a little history in a very short space to another poster. I honor patriotic Americans and those who served their country.


62 posted on 06/16/2013 6:24:04 AM PDT by detective
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To: detective
I understand, I just think that when you give a brief historical overview pointing out that our leaders betrayed us while we actually were at war shows just how depraved they were more than saying their betrayal amounted to there not being a war going on.

I wasn't implying you didn't honor those who serve and have served.

63 posted on 06/16/2013 6:41:08 AM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: ansel12; Religion Moderator; narses

It seems to me that ansell12’s posts are somewhat off-topic and also biased.

Sure, you could say that the revolution in Mexico was “Catholics fighting Catholics,” but in fact it was basically Communist ex-Catholics fighting and murdering Priests and other Catholics.

It was much the same as the Civil War in Spain, which was also Communists murdering Priests and other Catholics. Franco was villanized by the leftist media, but he simply chose to fight against the Communist murderers; and he managed to keep Hitler from occupying Spain, which was about as much as he was able to do in the circumstances. He also provided refuge to quite a few Jews who managed to make it out of France into Spain, although the leftist Jews certainly don’t give him any credit for that.

I think narses sometimes gets carried away on these threads, but I don’t entirely blame him.

As for whether the U.S. should have intervened in the Mexican civil war, that’s a different question. Probably not. But Mexico wouldn’t be such a mess even now if not for the class warfare that has gone on down there. The best analysis of what’s wrong with Latin America that I know of is Joseph Conrad’s “Nostromo,” which describes the constant shift of dictators in Latin America from left to right, from Communism to crony capitalism. Not much the U.S. can do about it, although it might help if our Democrat politicians didn’t get so loving with their Communist dictators.


64 posted on 06/16/2013 7:15:45 AM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Salvation; ansel12
The Religion Forum guidelines have not changed.

Ad Hominems

The main guideline to posting on the Religion Forum: ”Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.”

Whereas posters may argue vigorously for and against beliefs on “open” Religion Forum threads it is never tolerable to use ad hominems in religious debate because they invariably lead to flame wars when the subject is one’s deeply held religious beliefs.

For something to be "making it personal" it must be speaking to another Freeper, personally.

"Protestants are heretics" is not making it personal. "You are a heretic" is making it personal. "Catholics worship Mary" is not making it personal. "You worship Mary" is making it personal. "Mormons worship many gods" is not making it personal. "You worship many gods" is making it personal.

However, when a poster paints with a brush that accuses an entire religion of criminal behavior - his post will be pulled as flame bait. For example, posts that say "Protestants kill babies" or "Catholics molest children" or "Mormons kill non-Mormons" will be pulled. However, if the post is specific about a non-Freeper, I will not pull it. For example "Rev. Doe says abortion and infanticide are not sin" or "Father Doe was convicted for molesting those kids" or "Mormons killed non-Mormons at Mountain Meadows" would not be pulled.

Statements formed as questions are rarely "making it personal."

"Are you a heretic" is not making it personal. "You are a heretic" is making it personal.

Forms of "making it personal" include mind reading, attributing motive, accusing another Freeper of telling a lie (because it attributes motive, the intent to deceive) - making the thread "about" individual Freeper(s), following a Freeper from thread to thread and badgering a Freeper over-and-again with the same question.

The words "prevarication" "dishonesty" "slander" "deceit" "calumny" and "subterfuge" are synonymous with "lie" because they entail intent.

Words such as "false" "error" "wrong" "inaccurate" "misstatement" do not attribute motive and are not "making it personal."

Other words push the envelope of motive but are not synonymous with "lie" for purposes of modding the RF. However, they can be "making it personal" if applied to another Freeper, personally, in such a way the discussion becomes "about" the individual Freeper instead of the issues. Those words include "misrepresentation" "detraction" "disinformation" "distortion" "hyperbole" and "doublespeak."

Another example, calling a group of Freepers "anti-Mormon" attributes motive to them as a group which is not technically "making it personal" - but saying that another Freeper, personally, is anti-Mormon instead of anti-MormonISM is an ad hominem. It is "making it personal."

Another example, a poster may say on an “open” RF thread that a particular belief, diety, religious authority, etc. is "Satanic." But he must not say "You are Satanic." That would be "making it personal." The Bible is always a legitimate source on the Religion Forum, so a poster might quote the Bible where Jesus called Peter "Satan." If a post serves no debate purpose (flame bait or 'making it personal' by devious means) - it would be pulled.

When in doubt, avoid the use of the pronoun "you" and Freeper's names - or put yourself in the other guy's shoes.


65 posted on 06/16/2013 7:17:38 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: NYer

Not really a new film, watched it on Netflix over a year ago.


66 posted on 06/16/2013 8:49:34 AM PDT by ops33 (Senior Master Sergeant, USAF (Retired))
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To: narses

I applaud your defense of the Faith! I did not see your correction of erroneous statements about the Church as incendiary, but as this is a private forum, the moderator makes the rules. Think of the RM as a nun with a ruler!


67 posted on 06/16/2013 11:35:15 AM PDT by NewCenturions
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To: Cicero; verga

Post 9 was in response to post 8 that describes situations or history in the Soviet Union, Eastern Europe, Asia and Latin America, Mexico, Africa and the Middle East, China, North Korea, Vietnam, and Cambodia, that I disagreed with and that encompassed my father’s and mine, and my brother’s time in the military, and my nation’s engagement in combat in almost all those areas.

Responding to post 8 made sense, but I think it is right to point out that other posters got way off topic when they tried to get overly involved in Mexican history.

They even avoided the relevant question of which countries were supposed to send their Army’s to Mexico, and why, and if Mexico needed to be invaded, then perhaps the many Catholic nations south of it could have invaded, or perhaps the Catholic nations of Spain, or France could have gone to help.

America did it’s part by taking in hundreds of thousands of refugees from their Catholic nation of Mexico during that period.


68 posted on 06/16/2013 12:55:48 PM PDT by ansel12 (Social liberalism/libertarianism, empowers, creates and imports, and breeds, economic liberals.)
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To: Ann Archy
but FDR didn’t send Catholics back to Nazi Germany to be KILLED.

Following that act, president for life, FDR, still retained Catholic voters at 73% in 1940 and 1944, and Jewish voters at 90% both of those elections, and the majority of Protestantism voters were voting against the guy, trying to get him out of office.

Everything remained pretty much the same for his veep in 1948, as America's Protestants as a whole were still voting against the administration, but Truman did magnificently with Catholics and Jews.

69 posted on 06/16/2013 1:04:28 PM PDT by ansel12 (Social liberalism/libertarianism, empowers, creates and imports, and breeds, economic liberals.)
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To: Rashputin; detective

Yes, some of us lived and served during that 75 years, as nations like the United States gave blood and treasure, freerepublic is full of us.

One often sees an anti-Americanism show up on these threads.


70 posted on 06/16/2013 1:09:58 PM PDT by ansel12 (Social liberalism/libertarianism, empowers, creates and imports, and breeds, economic liberals.)
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To: ansel12

Why is it so hard for many to accept that the vast majority of Jews in America have always wanted to be AMERICANS? So much so that they have always overlooked the plight of their fellow Jews in distant lands.

They’re not American conservatives because that has always meant a measure of Christian primacy if not of outright Christian authoritarianism.


71 posted on 06/16/2013 1:12:19 PM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: ansel12
You are still dragging this thread off topic and I will not be baited. If you have a need to discuss your topic please feel free to start a separate thread. Once again this is a polite request.
72 posted on 06/16/2013 1:20:02 PM PDT by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: verga

I was responding to your post 61 to me, post 9 was in response to post 8, and I was right to correct that post.

See post 68.


73 posted on 06/16/2013 1:23:50 PM PDT by ansel12 (Social liberalism/libertarianism, empowers, creates and imports, and breeds, economic liberals.)
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To: Religion Moderator

74 posted on 06/16/2013 1:27:06 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: jjotto
Why is it so hard for many to accept that the vast majority of Jews in America have always wanted to be AMERICANS?

By voting as far left as they can go? Do you think that desiring to be American explains 90% democrat votes and supporting Debs of the Socialist party at 38%?

The conservative vote is the more American.

75 posted on 06/16/2013 1:29:36 PM PDT by ansel12 (Social liberalism/libertarianism, empowers, creates and imports, and breeds, economic liberals.)
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To: ansel12

See post 72.


76 posted on 06/16/2013 2:52:48 PM PDT by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: ansel12

You left out the second part. A lot of people besides Jews don’t want to live under Christian authoritarianism. The Founding Fathers, for example.


77 posted on 06/16/2013 3:06:46 PM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: ansel12
almost everyone involved was Catholic

The people orchestrating the persecution were not Catholic, as I have already patiently explained.

78 posted on 06/16/2013 3:34:34 PM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: Campion

I think we can assume that almost everyone involved in the Mexican power struggle was indeed Catholic.


79 posted on 06/16/2013 4:26:46 PM PDT by ansel12 (Social liberalism/libertarianism, empowers, creates and imports, and breeds, economic liberals.)
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To: jjotto

So the Jews are, and the 1780 Americans were, anti-Christian?

The Jewish vote has always been so liberal for in American history, even leftist and socialist in America, not because of politics, but because of the hope that the democrats will suppress Christianity? Is that why they supported Debs by 38%?


80 posted on 06/16/2013 4:32:07 PM PDT by ansel12 (Social liberalism/libertarianism, empowers, creates and imports, and breeds, economic liberals.)
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To: verga

I saw that post, did you see post 8?


81 posted on 06/16/2013 4:33:22 PM PDT by ansel12 (Social liberalism/libertarianism, empowers, creates and imports, and breeds, economic liberals.)
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To: ansel12
The topic is Pope Pius and how the Catholic Church is responsible for rescuing numerous Jews from under the very noses of the Nazis. If you wish do discuss a different matter than start a new thread. This is my third polite request for you to stop hijacking the thread.
82 posted on 06/16/2013 4:39:51 PM PDT by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: verga

I didn’t hijack anything, I responded to posts 4 and 8.

I have also responded to your attack on me in post 61 and your continued posting to me, so far every one of your posts on this thread, is to me.


83 posted on 06/16/2013 5:09:46 PM PDT by ansel12 (Social liberalism/libertarianism, empowers, creates and imports, and breeds, economic liberals.)
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To: verga

The thread has been hijacked to Meheeko, which incidentally is unmentioned in posts cuatro or ocho. (I thought Cuba was a common hijacking destination.)


84 posted on 06/16/2013 5:14:44 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: ansel12
so far every one of your posts on this thread, is to me. That is correct each one has been a polite request that you stick to the topic of the thread. If you do that I will be glad to engage you in that subject, but I will not be baited into your thread hijack.
85 posted on 06/16/2013 5:15:18 PM PDT by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: verga

Well, I don’t know why you want to keep posting at me, but it seems that you will.

Post 9 was in response to post 8 that describes situations or history in the Soviet Union, Eastern Europe, Asia and Latin America, Mexico, Africa and the Middle East, China, North Korea, Vietnam, and Cambodia, that I disagreed with and that encompassed my father’s and mine, and my brother’s time in the military, and my nation’s engagement in combat in almost all those areas.

Responding to post 8 made sense, but I think it is right to point out that other posters got way off topic when they tried to get overly involved in Mexican history.

They even avoided the relevant question of which countries were supposed to send their Army’s to Mexico, and why, and if Mexico needed to be invaded, then perhaps the many Catholic nations south of it could have invaded, or perhaps the Catholic nations of Spain, or France could have gone to help.


86 posted on 06/16/2013 5:36:53 PM PDT by ansel12 (Social liberalism/libertarianism, empowers, creates and imports, and breeds, economic liberals.)
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To: ansel12

That is correct each one has been a polite request that you stick to the topic of the thread. If you do that I will be glad to engage you in that subject, but I will not be baited into your thread hijack.


87 posted on 06/16/2013 5:42:57 PM PDT by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: verga

Certain Protestant types on this board enjoy trolling seemingly innocent Catholic-related threads and trying to prove some simplistic, juvenile non sequitur that is utterly unrelated to the topic at hand. These posters, fortunately, come across as the mouth-breathing idiots they are, as evidenced by the fact that even the most diehard members of the FR Catholic bashing caucus tend to stay away from discussions where this occurs.


88 posted on 06/16/2013 5:49:47 PM PDT by HoosierDammit (St. Vincent de Paul, pray for us!)
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To: NYer

His reward was to be slandered by Jews as Hitler’s Pope.


89 posted on 06/16/2013 5:51:12 PM PDT by Hacksaw (I haven't taken the 30 silvers.)
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To: HoosierDammit
They also fail to recognize that no one is forcing them to reply or to continue in ludicrous thread hijacks.

Beating a dead horse does not win them points and only serves lower our already Marianas trench level of their debating techniques and abilities.

90 posted on 06/16/2013 5:58:18 PM PDT by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: verga

Who knows what your views are on anything, you would need to post one for us to know.

Posting nothings to me sure isn’t helping the thread.


91 posted on 06/16/2013 5:58:51 PM PDT by ansel12 (Social liberalism/libertarianism, empowers, creates and imports, and breeds, economic liberals.)
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To: verga; HoosierDammit

A thread consisting of veiled personal attacks and inaccurate claims is hardly relevant and helpful.

I notice that you guys don’t seem interested in all the posting related to Mexico, is that because you don’t see that as off topic?


92 posted on 06/16/2013 6:03:04 PM PDT by ansel12 (Social liberalism/libertarianism, empowers, creates and imports, and breeds, economic liberals.)
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To: ansel12

The topic is Pope Pius and how the Catholic Church is responsible for rescuing numerous Jews from under the very noses of the Nazis. If you wish do discuss a different matter than start a new thread. This is my third polite request for you to stop hijacking the thread.


93 posted on 06/16/2013 6:06:56 PM PDT by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: ansel12

The topic is Pope Pius and how the Catholic Church is responsible for rescuing numerous Jews from under the very noses of the Nazis. If you wish do discuss a different matter than start a new thread. This is my third polite request for you to stop hijacking the thread.


94 posted on 06/16/2013 6:07:44 PM PDT by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: verga; moder_ator

Your persistence in posting the same thing at me while not responding to anything, reminds me that at some point the moderator will point out to you to lay-off the simple badgering.

When a guy jumps on a thread to just keep posting nothing at a poster over and over and refuses to discuss with or respond to him, it just isn’t useful.


95 posted on 06/16/2013 6:11:56 PM PDT by ansel12 (Social liberalism/libertarianism, empowers, creates and imports, and breeds, economic liberals.)
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To: ansel12; moder_ator
When a guy jumps on a thread to just keep posting nothing at a poster over and over and refuses to discuss with or respond to him, it just isn’t useful.

I am politely asking ansell2 to stick to the topic of the thread so that I may respond something on topic.

No one is forcing him to continue to try and bait me into an off topic thread hijack.

96 posted on 06/16/2013 6:21:44 PM PDT by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: NYer

The Chief Rabbi of Rome was so moved by the pope’s efforts to save the Jews that he converted to Catholicism, and took the pope’s name as his baptismal name.

This whole mythology was created by the KGB-directed, revisionist play, “The Deputy,” in 1963.


97 posted on 06/16/2013 6:24:15 PM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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To: ansel12

Who do you like tonight - Spurs or Heat?


98 posted on 06/16/2013 6:24:28 PM PDT by HoosierDammit (St. Vincent de Paul, pray for us!)
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To: verga

You have made your single post clear, many times, at some point it needs to cease.

And since you started posting to me, no one is forcing you to continue posting to me.


99 posted on 06/16/2013 6:42:06 PM PDT by ansel12 (Social liberalism/libertarianism, empowers, creates and imports, and breeds, economic liberals.)
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To: HoosierDammit

Did you read post 8, how about post 4?


100 posted on 06/16/2013 6:42:49 PM PDT by ansel12 (Social liberalism/libertarianism, empowers, creates and imports, and breeds, economic liberals.)
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