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Is Daredevil Nik Wallenda Tempting God?
The Christian Post ^ | June 23, 2013 | JP

Posted on 06/23/2013 6:53:17 AM PDT by CHRISTIAN DIARIST

After his death-defying, history-making walk last year on a tightrope, several hundred feet above Niagara Falls, Nik Wallenda this evening will defy death yet again in his live televised walk across the Grand Canyon.

The walk will be 1,500 feet above northern Arizona’s Little Colorado River Gorge, known by locals as “Grand Canyon East.” The distance between Wallenda’s tightrope and the bottom of the gorge is equivalent to the distance between the top of Empire State Building and the sidewalk below.

So if Wallenda is off his game Sunday evening, if he suddenly encounters high winds or other deleterious conditions, he can easily plunge to his death.

Like his great-grandfather Karl Wallenda, who in 1978 attempted a walk between the twin ten-story towers of the Condado Plaza Hotel in San Juan, Puerto Rico, only to fall to his death before a live audience.

Many think the late Karl Wallenda’s great-grandson is tempting God by continuing to undertake extremely dangerous “skywalks” without benefit of a harness or a net. But 34-year-old Nck Wallenda, a purpose-driven Christian, sees it differently.

“Keeping the faith is all that keeps me balanced,” writes young man Wallenda, in his just-released memoir, “Balance: A Story of Faith, Family, and Life on the Line.” “If I didn’t believe, I’d fall in any number of ways. By believing, my spirit stays afloat.”

Wallenda professes that his high-wire act, which will be viewed by a national television audience, brings glory to God. He holds fast to his faith that God will be walking alongside him when he’s high above Grand Canyon East, as He was when the daredevil was high above Niagara Falls.

I’m praying for Wallenda. I believe that every time he successfully completes one of his death-defying walks, he confirms the pronouncement of the Apostle Paul that “we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.”

I also am persuaded that Wallenda has a unique anointing. Indeed, there were many, no doubt, who witnessed his Niagara Falls walk on TV, who heard Wallenda calling upon the name of the Lord during the live telecast, who were motivated by the Holy Spirit to seek Christ..

Similarly, there will be many who tune in tonight to see if Wallenda loses his life on live TV while attempting to traverse the spectacularly terrifying Little Colorado River Gorge or if Wallenda’s God once again delivers him from the clutches of death.

I, for one, believe God is with Nik Wallenda. And if the daredevil looks heavenward during his skywalk tonight, I believe he will see the Lord, high and lifted up.


TOPICS: Current Events; General Discusssion; Religion & Culture; Worship
KEYWORDS: chat
Neither height, nor depth shall be able to separate us from the love – or the protection – of God.
1 posted on 06/23/2013 6:53:17 AM PDT by CHRISTIAN DIARIST
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To: CHRISTIAN DIARIST

I won’t judge but I thank God he hasn’t called me to do it.


2 posted on 06/23/2013 6:55:06 AM PDT by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: CHRISTIAN DIARIST
If Mr. Wallenda wants to perform an act of courage in the name of his faith, may I suggest that he do something useful that doesn't draw attention to him?
3 posted on 06/23/2013 6:56:58 AM PDT by July4
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To: CHRISTIAN DIARIST

God has nothing better to do than keep a man balanced on a taut rope he chose to walk over for a hobby, while millions of children are born to their deaths, in abject misery.


4 posted on 06/23/2013 7:00:42 AM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: July4

He’s a world famous tight rope walker from a long line of world famous tight rope walkers, this is what he does.


5 posted on 06/23/2013 7:01:05 AM PDT by RC one
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To: CHRISTIAN DIARIST

I hope all goes well for him, and that this doesn’t become a “suicide by gravity.”


6 posted on 06/23/2013 7:02:58 AM PDT by Pearls Before Swine
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To: James C. Bennett

We are all born to our deaths. Some simply have shorter lives than others. Every soul has its calling and purpose in this life, even if we cannot comprehend it as finite, non-transcendent entities.

If this man wishes to try and bring glory to God in this very dangerous way, it is his life to lay on the line. I send a prayer to him, and hope God does indeed walk with him.


7 posted on 06/23/2013 7:08:53 AM PDT by Viennacon
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To: Viennacon

I’ve known more than my share of people with clinical depression, driven to commit suicide, to not allow me the luxury to partake in the fantasy you project. Every soul has a calling and purpose? What purpose does a spontaneously (naturally) aborted (miscarried) foetus have, often ejected without the mother even being aware?


8 posted on 06/23/2013 7:15:56 AM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: CHRISTIAN DIARIST

I wish him no harm, but I also see no spiritual value in doing something very dangerous so others can gawk and see if you die. I see nothing in it that glorifies God.


9 posted on 06/23/2013 7:28:43 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (Liberals are like locusts...)
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To: July4
If Mr. Wallenda wants to perform an act of courage in the name of his faith, may I suggest that he do something useful that doesn't draw attention to him?

Like this:

Math 6:5

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

10 posted on 06/23/2013 7:32:56 AM PDT by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
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To: July4

I concur.

I would be curious if the money he raises goes to Christian charities. I will give him kudos for giving God the glory for his success, but with all of the things needed by people today, I can’t see “walking across the Grand Canyon on a tightrope” as one of them.


11 posted on 06/23/2013 7:33:11 AM PDT by ScubieNuc (When there is no justice in the laws, justice is left to the outlaws.)
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To: James C. Bennett

As I stated, nobody could ever know because we are non-transcendent. You are talking about natural evil, things such as tsunamis and tornadoes that kill people, without other people being involved.
Unfortunately, there is a widespread delusion that God’s purpose in creating this world was to craft us a nice little terrarium where nothing bad ever happens. Unfortunately it may be the case that for God’s will to be carried out, we must live in a world saturated by evil.

In a world without God however, the baby you describe really has no objective moral value anyway. It has no soul, it is simply organic matter, no more valuable than a piglet or a caterpillar, as Richard Dawkins has described unborn babies. It really is a little self-refuting to deny God and then seem to mourn the suffering and death of other living creatures. Would you weep for a dead frog? If not, then why weep for a dead child? In a world in which only the natural exists, neither is more valuable than the other. You’re simply projecting your own delusion of moral value that doesn’t exist. Both are simply the product of biological reproduction, in the same cycle of life and death. It is all meaningless.


12 posted on 06/23/2013 7:35:50 AM PDT by Viennacon
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To: CHRISTIAN DIARIST

I hate the term.. “ tempting God” as if He is looking for the excuse to reach out and bitch slap us..... That is so far from who He is to us....


13 posted on 06/23/2013 7:36:25 AM PDT by Walkingfeather
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To: CHRISTIAN DIARIST

He seems to me to be placing responsibility upon God to keep him alive. I would not do that. God does not fear death for us. And God does not require any one of us to, Himself, be in His Heaven.


14 posted on 06/23/2013 7:41:03 AM PDT by TalBlack (Evil doesn't have a day job.)
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To: CHRISTIAN DIARIST

The Lord doesn’t need gimmicks and, as anyone who has studied physics knows, that pole is almost like having a handrail. But I won’t suggest he do it without the pole, blindfolded, backwards, after drinking a fifth of Jack.


15 posted on 06/23/2013 7:44:23 AM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: Viennacon

So the foetus was conceived and then aborted without anyone being aware as part of some divine plan? You contradict yourself when you claim at one instance that “every soul has a purpose” and then simultaneously state / imply that some don’t get a chance to fulfil that “purpose” because it is a “fallen” world.

Please.

The lion cannot survive without the antelope being mauled to death. The “fallen” state is the default condition.


16 posted on 06/23/2013 7:45:53 AM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: CHRISTIAN DIARIST

No.


17 posted on 06/23/2013 7:46:52 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: James C. Bennett

Who is a human to question the Creator? You don’t know enough to ask the right questions, or understand if given an answer.

Do you know what happens to the infant (fetus) after the miscarriage? If not, how can you judge?


18 posted on 06/23/2013 7:50:20 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (Liberals are like locusts...)
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To: CHRISTIAN DIARIST

No, he is tempting gravity.


19 posted on 06/23/2013 7:53:08 AM PDT by GSWarrior (When someone points at the moon, don't stare at his finger.)
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To: CHRISTIAN DIARIST

“Here! Hold my soda pop and watch this!”


20 posted on 06/23/2013 8:09:08 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Sometimes you need 7+ more ammo. LOTS MORE.)
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To: CHRISTIAN DIARIST

Luke 4
1 Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2 being tempted for forty days by the devil. And in those days He ate nothing, and afterward, when they had ended, He was hungry.
3 And the devil said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, command this stone to become bread.”
4 But Jesus answered him, saying, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.’”
5 Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said to Him, “All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. 7 Therefore, if You will worship before me, all will be Yours.”
8 And Jesus answered and said to him, “Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ”
9 Then he brought Him to Jerusalem, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down from here. 10 For it is written:
‘He shall give His angels charge over you,
To keep you,’
11 and,
‘In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’”
12 And Jesus answered and said to him, “It has been said, ‘You shall not tempt the LORD your God.’ ”
13 Now when the devil had ended every temptation, he departed from Him until an opportune time.


21 posted on 06/23/2013 8:15:46 AM PDT by EternalVigilance
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To: CHRISTIAN DIARIST

So, the answer to the question contained in the headline is “yes.”


22 posted on 06/23/2013 8:21:32 AM PDT by EternalVigilance
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To: James C. Bennett

That’s not what I stated. You must understand the difference between ‘natural evil’ and ‘human evil’. Human evil is very easy to explain. When a women has a ‘doctor’ kill her baby inside the womb, that is human evil. The woman has decided to take an evil action, and the ‘doctor’ has carried out a paid murder.
In this instance, as I see it (although other Christians may disagree), whatever purpose such a child might have had was indeed prevented by the evil of another person. This is free will, which I’m sure you understand. We would not want to be puppets, and God would have no use for such creatures anyway.

Natural evil, is a tougher subject, because no entity of this earth causes a hurricane, or a spontaneous miscarriage, yet these things are hideously destructive to human life. Now, there are two theories among theologians and philosophers with regard to natural evil.

A) Natural evil is the product of a fallen world. It is perfectly possible that we have to live in a harsh world, in order for God’s purpose to be fulfilled. Some speculate that these things are the machinations of Satan. Personally, I don’t really buy into that. I just think these things naturally occur in a fallen world.

B) Every event that occurs naturally in our environment has a reason for its occurrence. Nothing is random, there are no coincidences. I’m sure you’ve heard the old analogy about the butterfly’s wings and the tornado, a key part of chaos theory. Small, seemingly insignificant events now, could have massive ramifications in the future. Who would have thought that a wrong turn by a driver in Austria-Hungary would eventually lead to the rise of Hitler, the Russian revolution, a lot of the current turmoil around the world, all knock-on effects of that spark that caused WWI?
Like I said, you and I are finite entities. Our lifespans are insignificant on this planet. We also do not transcend the universe, so we have no way of seeing the future. You might see a butterfly go past your window. How would you know that this might, through chain reaction, lead to just the right conditions for a cyclone off the coast of Fiji 100 years from now? You wouldn’t.

You have not addressed the point that if the world with God is a “fantasy”, then we really have no reason to give a hoot if a baby dies naturally, or by the hand of an abortion doctor.


23 posted on 06/23/2013 8:37:34 AM PDT by Viennacon
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To: CHRISTIAN DIARIST

The Wallendas have a family tradition of fouling up and plummeting to their demise, or at least those members of the family not related by blood. Only one Wallenda died that way, and he was 73 years old at the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallenda


24 posted on 06/23/2013 8:37:52 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy (Best WoT news at rantburg.com)
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To: Viennacon

If our lives and our awareness of our existence is all we have, then the value of life is magnified by its scarcity. Things that are limited in quantity are also the ones that become invaluable. So, if life is all you have, and death is certain, won’t you work your best to beautify it, to have others help you beautify it, and promote reciprocity? Evolutionarily and logically, promoting this benefits you.

A god that creates a child to be born dead where its death goes unnoticed, is a failed god for indulging in a purposeless creation. You haven’t really explained this problem that your belief has to square with.


25 posted on 06/23/2013 8:46:39 AM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: LibWhacker

that pole is almost like having a handrail ...
Until it starts to move.


26 posted on 06/23/2013 8:48:08 AM PDT by Old North State
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To: CHRISTIAN DIARIST

“After his death-defying, history-making walk last year on a tightrope, several hundred feet above Niagara Falls....”

Sorry, but being hooked to a safety tether is NOT death defying. Now, what he’s going to do tonight with no tether IS death defying,...unless of course he’s wearing a parachute.


27 posted on 06/23/2013 9:01:18 AM PDT by Ronald_Magnus
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To: James C. Bennett

I think I have adequately explained that you have no way of knowing what purpose such an entity would have in anything it did, because you are not such an entity. It is like an insect watching through a window as a mathematician does calculus.

Your argument might work for preserving YOUR life, but children are born every day, all over the world. We have no reason to care about a child who dies or a man who commits suicide. And why would you promote reciprocity, especially if reciprocity is inconvenient for some individuals (e.g women who abort for financial reasons), and might deny them opportunities in life? If we die, and that is all, there is no logical purpose for our existence other than to indulge ourselves in as much pleasure as possible. We are simply a happy coincidence of evolution. We have no reason to concern ourselves with the continuance of the species. Why? What possible benefit could come to you by promoting reciprocity in others? A warm feeling inside that you helped the species? This is illusory.

When you place value on something, this is subjective to a large extent. One man’s trash is another man’s treasure. If Ted Bundy said that the lives of his victims had zero value, but you said that they had high value, who is right? He perceives the life as trash, you perceive it as treasure.

Now, in a world with God, Ted Bundy is wrong. Human life has objective moral value placed upon it by its creator, whose value is indisputable. Bundy has violated a commandment given from creator to creation.
In a world without God, neither you nor Bundy are right or wrong. You simply have a different assessment of the value of human life. Bundy is doing nothing more wrong than behaving unfashionably, or straying from the herd in his beliefs.

Reciprocity is simply a mechanical function of our nature, the same for all other animals. We are compelled to reproduce by biology. Our reproduction serves no greater purpose than a ferret’s reproduction. Any greater value of our continuance that humans place, is illusory. At least, in a world without God.


28 posted on 06/23/2013 9:21:01 AM PDT by Viennacon
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To: James C. Bennett

And as a side note, reciprocity does help with our continuance as a species, BUT it is not necessary.


29 posted on 06/23/2013 9:23:42 AM PDT by Viennacon
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To: Viennacon
Civilisation is impossible without reciprocity. Our human population would struggle to expand beyond a couple of million individuals, were it not for the peace dividend harnessed from mutual cooperation and reciprocity. The present billions would be reduced to a trickle, were it not for reciprocity fomenting the means for collaboration. Human advancement would be significantly stunted, were it not for reciprocity. You owe your very existence to reciprocity.

So you're wrong, it is absolutely necessary for reciprocity to exist, for you to be part of what you call civilisation.

Any behaviour that threatens the human social fabric in turn threatens its constituent individuals. This is why disparate cultures evolved laws against murder and theft, against premarital sex and fatherless child-rearing, if not without your god, then with other gods. So again, without invoking your specific god, Ted Bundy's acts would be seen as immoral simply because they threaten the social fabric, and damage trust and collaboration were the society to condone such behaviour.

Your argument might work for preserving YOUR life, but children are born every day, all over the world. We have no reason to care about a child who dies or a man who commits suicide. And why would you promote reciprocity, especially if reciprocity is inconvenient for some individuals (e.g women who abort for financial reasons), and might deny them opportunities in life? If we die, and that is all, there is no logical purpose for our existence other than to indulge ourselves in as much pleasure as possible. We are simply a happy coincidence of evolution. We have no reason to concern ourselves with the continuance of the species. Why? What possible benefit could come to you by promoting reciprocity in others? A warm feeling inside that you helped the species? This is illusory.

Wrong. Caring for another's life fosters reciprocity. It builds trust and frees individuals from allocating all their resources against defense from one another, thus giving them a very tangible advantage in living and reproducing, totally in line with Darwinian evolution. Take a look at the nomad tribes in the world today. Without settling, their numbers are limited and even here, without collaboration, individuals don't stand a chance. If they do want to settle, collaboration by way of reciprocity is of paramount importance.

You neglect the evolutionary pressures that dominate our thinking and outlook, the ones geared to goad us into reproducing and raising offspring. A Muslim is devoted to raising a family in spite of following a wrong god, because of this. The evolutionary forces making people desire such an outcome are more universal than your specific religion, thus underlining the inherent truth of the former. The best environment for one's offspring to succeed in, is one that fosters reciprocity. Because you cannot always be there to protect them. This trust is not a mere luxury but a prime necessity. You pooh-pooh it as a "warm, fuzzy feeling" out of your incapacity to recognise its importance in your life, because you don't want your dogma to collapse under the weight of truth.

Your god in the voice of a man was happy in commanding men to slaughter infants in 1 Samuel 15:3. If you can excuse this, how can you say Satan is bad? Where did that inherent value of human life disappear suddenly, from those infants who couldn't possibly have done anything yet to earn them this fate? And if they did earn it because their "evil" was foreseen by your god, then why did it conceive them, and cause them to be birthed in the first place? And if they can be forced to a trial before the act was committed, why are you allowed a pass? Your dogma has holes that cannot be patched by logic and reason, and can only be given a pass by highly subjective bias.

30 posted on 06/23/2013 10:02:16 AM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: CHRISTIAN DIARIST

This is just a worldly entertainment industry event. Simple as that. I really enjoy flying (private pilot), but, as of 18 yrs ago, I no longer attend airshows. After being present at one where a pilot died, I examined myself, thinking, “What purpose was it that made me want to come to this event?” The fleshly desire to be entertained.

I think it was a couple of years ago that a woman aerobatic pilot was killed, in NW Missouri, while practicing for her airshow routine. Structural failure ended her life. Her skills were not being honed for defense of the country, or for air ambulance/rescue; but just for entertainment of herself and others. She left behind two young sons.

People choose to do dangerous things, that are totally unnecessary, everyday; like riding a motorcycle without a helmet.

God does not tell the child of God to live recklessly like the world, but rather, to come out of it.


31 posted on 06/23/2013 10:15:10 AM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: CHRISTIAN DIARIST

I wonder how God sees all the millions who will tune in just to see a man die.

Yeah I know, nobody likes to admit that that’s why they’ll watch, but if they just wanted to see a guy walk a straight line they could just as well watch a roadside DUI test.


32 posted on 06/23/2013 10:47:02 AM PDT by Roccus
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To: Roccus

There will be a ten second delay per news stories and they won’t let those folks see that if it happens.


33 posted on 06/23/2013 10:50:11 AM PDT by John W (Viva Cristo Rey!)
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To: James C. Bennett

Haha. Well, you are definitely an atheist. The hatred towards any notion of God is palpable here. We’ll probably have to agree to disagree in light of this, but I will remind you that this is not a Reddit forum.

My assertion had nothing to do with “civilization”. You’re moving the goal posts. We were talking about the continuance of our species. Indeed civilization is not necessary for species survival, or we would be the only living things on earth.

“Human advancement would be significantly stunted, were it not for reciprocity”

And... what was the point of this statement? You can find examples of creatures who practice cannibalism, and eat their own offspring. This is not reciprocity, yet the species continues to survive. I can see no reason to put a greater value on a large human population as opposed to a small human population in a world without God. In fact, larger populations often come with problems of their own.

“Any behaviour that threatens the human social fabric in turn threatens its constituent individuals”

This does not make it objectively wrong. If I choose not to care about those individuals or your “social fabric”, and choose to place zero value on their lives, I can kill without any kind of moral qualms. In fact, there may be instances in which it is advantageous to me to kill them. I may gain something from a murder. The social fabric in your world is a construct of man, and all men being equal, your regard for it is no more valuable than my potential disregard for it. Again, we just have a different opinion, and any belief that your opinion is superior to Bundy’s is merely unjustified moral elitism. You are essentially making a god out of yourself, deciding what is right and wrong.

“This is why disparate cultures evolved laws against murder and theft, against premarital sex and fatherless child-rearing”

This is perhaps the most shaky claim you just made. If “this” is an objective reality, true for all people, that actions not promoting reciprocity are not compatible with societies, then no society in the world would ever have done anything that didn’t promote reciprocity. This is a ridiculous claim to make. Since humans have walked on the earth, there have been large societies that have undertaken horrific practices. Just look at the sacrificial rituals in ancient American societies. These civilizations did not collapse because of a lack of reciprocity, in fact they functioned well without it. Other factors caused their demise.

When you descend into petty attacks on the Christian God as a murderer, you really exit the realms of logic and attempt to fight a battle occupying two worlds. You’re applying the judgements of a world without God to a world with God. In a world with God, no action taken by God could be evil, no matter how you might perceive it as a finite, non-transcendent being. Once you enter a world in which God exists, you cannot ignore the reality of such a being’s nature. How can I not excuse any evil action taken by Satan? You seem to misunderstand what Satan is. He is a creation himself. If he carries out an evil act, it is no different to you or me carrying out an evil act. He is not a god. Indeed, he got his ass kicked out of Heaven by God.

“You pooh-pooh it as a “warm, fuzzy feeling” out of your incapacity to recognise its importance in your life, because you don’t want your dogma to collapse under the weight of truth”

And you value it because of your incapacity to recognize that any importance you place on it is illusory. You might compare it to someone in the Matrix who does not even want to think that everything is virtual because the Matrix has a “social fabric” and the world outside does not.
Of course, this is in a world without god. A world in which you and I are no more important than the salmon, having evolved through biological accident. Our species will eventually become extinct, if not through our own doing or some cataclysm, then in the heat death of the universe.

I would also like to point out that this isn’t something I am just concocting, this is the opinion of atheist scholars! It’s part of a very popular theory of ‘metaphysical naturalism’. Alex Rosenberg in his works argues that nothing has any meaning, even sentences, and any apprehension of morality or “right and wrong” are illusions of the human mind. Michael Ruse has also argued that “morality has no foundation”. There is a reason intellectual atheists are roughly split on whether to acknowledge objective morality or not. Those who don’t want to have to defend its incompatibility with atheism, often abandon it.

I would go on, but I fear I may be wasting my time. I have a feeling that you could witness a miracle first hand and you would still not believe in anything beyond the “social fabric” which must be maintained for unknown reasons. Have a good day, man. :)


34 posted on 06/23/2013 10:54:14 AM PDT by Viennacon
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To: cripplecreek

I can’t even look out a high rise window without the feeling of falling.......so I don’t do it.


35 posted on 06/23/2013 10:54:29 AM PDT by Hot Tabasco (This space for rent)
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To: John W

Oh, so if they WANT to but CAN’T then they’ll be OK.

Got it.


36 posted on 06/23/2013 11:00:41 AM PDT by Roccus
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To: Viennacon

1 Samuel 15:3.

You conveniently skipped it.

;^)


37 posted on 06/23/2013 1:21:26 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: James C. Bennett

Like I said, if you want to criticize God’s actions, you first have to acknowledge His nature, that nothing God does could ever be evil. You aren’t doing this.
In the same way, you could never say that Satan had done something good, because in acknowledging his existence, you would acknowledge that his nature prohibits any good.

There are plenty of passages you could cite where God does things that, if done by a man, would be questionable. You’re viewing God as some kind of non-transcendent entity like a king.


38 posted on 06/23/2013 2:10:05 PM PDT by Viennacon
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To: James C. Bennett
God has nothing better to do than keep a man balanced on a taut rope he chose to walk over for a hobby, while millions of children are born to their deaths, in abject misery.

I'm pretty sure Nik Wallenda doesn't monopolize God's full attention.

39 posted on 06/23/2013 2:32:22 PM PDT by RansomOttawa (tm)
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To: Viennacon

And therein lies the rub!

Based on your subjective choice of whose mythology you accept as your god, all its actions become “moral” in your sight. Just as you equated the slaughter of the infants by a man who heard another man say that his god wanted him to do it, as “moral” since you chose to believe this is what your chosen god wanted, so too can a Muslim make arguments about the violent commandments in the Quran.

Ultimately, it’s all subjective and the acts of your god become “good” just because you’ve retroactively chosen to define what “good” is to allow this chosen god of yours, a moral pass.


40 posted on 06/23/2013 2:41:25 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: James C. Bennett

I’m not entirely convinced this is coherent. You seem to have the process ass backwards. It’s not that I have chosen to define what good is. Good... IS GOD. I cannot judge good from bad on an objective level any more than you can. Of course it’s not subjective, because I didn’t write the law that says “you shall not bear false witness”. God did. If I had written this law, it would be a subjective one.
If it was as you say, my religion would have 100s of commandments, because it would be shaped around what I want, but it isn’t. It was shaped long before me by God. I have nothing to do with it.

“So too can a Muslim make arguments about the violent commandments in the Quran”

You seem to think this is some sort of good point, when really it isn’t. If Islam is the true religion, and the true vision of God’s nature, then yes, Muslims would be absolutely justified to follow those words in the Quran...

But I don’t believe Islam to be true, and I don’t think the arguments for its truth are very convincing, just like atheism’s arguments. For instance, I don’t think “Allah” has the same great making properties as the Christian God. He is not all-loving. This is a deficiency no god should have.

I’m not sure why we’re continuing. You hold a deep-seated belief that there is no God, and I hold the opposite to be true. It’s hardly likely we’re going to agree on anything in this field.


41 posted on 06/23/2013 2:57:21 PM PDT by Viennacon
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To: Viennacon

You said:

“I don’t think...”

“I don’t believe...” and so on, all based on SUBJECTIVE reasoning.

An all-loving god cannot order a man to slaughter infants conceived to be born, but extinguished before they can exercise free will (this is a deficiency no true god can afford to have). Or indulge in other barbarism. If you think it’s good for your god to order so, then even your definition of “love” becomes subjective, trapping you into that same circular logic used to define what “good” is.

Besides, all your information about your god was derived from human sources, beyond the hundredth hand. As such, you must have greater faith in the ability of mere men transmitting you that information without corruption than the faith you have in your deity. Why would a true god arrange for the circumstances to be such that you are dependent on your faith in human integrity to build upon it your faith in the very deity? Your faith is a subjective choice, more to do with the randomness of the things that defined your geography and history than with any objective reasoning on your part.


42 posted on 06/23/2013 3:42:42 PM PDT by James C. Bennett (An Australian.)
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To: James C. Bennett

In using terms like “think” and “believe”, even novice debaters know that those terms are used to assert a way in which we perceive something. If I say that “I believe there is a country called Japan”, this is not some wild assertion just because I have said that I believe it. I have good evidence to back up the claim. Not only do I know that Japan is a country, but I believe it because I know it.

You ignore chaos theory (the butterfly effect) in your assertion that an all-loving god “could not” do something you deem to be terrible. You have no way of knowing if one child’s death might save millions of children hundreds of years later. As I have already stated, your definition of “barbarism” is subjective itself. You are playing god by trying to apply your own ideas of right and wrong (which frankly are no more relevant than a sadist’s) to God. From an atheistic viewpoint, these children who would die are just biological matter anyway, similar to any other kind of biological matter you might find in a garden.
Any value you might place on such children, is simply the result of social conditioning and chemical reactions in the brain you might call ‘empathy’. In reality though, the dying child is of no value.

“If you think it’s good for your god to order so”

You’re again appealing to my own subjective morality, which I have not appealed to.
Your reasoning is as follows

I believe it to be good -—> it was good when God did it

When the logical reason that would follow from a situation in which God actually existed is as follows

God did it -—> it was good because God did it, even if the goodness is not apparent to me as a finite, non-transcendent being.

You then go on to the old attacks on the historicity of these accounts. Why would God wish me to trust in the Gospels, instead of appearing to me at night in a flowing robe and saying “see, I exist”. Well, there would be no point to my life here on earth if this was the case, unless I was some kind of prophet. Why wouldn’t God just create me in Heaven, and give me the same awareness of Him?
This is you, again, trying to make out that you could understand the workings of a mind that transcended space and time. “why didn’t God do this?” “why didn’t God do that?”. I used the example before of a bug staring in at a mathematician, trying to figure out why he draws a line instead of a circle. Even if the bug were capable of coherent thought, it would be impossible for him to comprehend anything that the mathematician was doing. Your relationship to God would be similar.

Have you ever trusted anything you have heard? How many experiments described in textbooks have you carried out yourself? You trust that people who write these things (however fantastic some seem) are being honest. Look at history. The vast majority of historical knowledge we have comes from accounts. We haven’t gone back in time to see exactly which day Ceaser died, but we take the accounts of his death on good faith.

Don’t take my word for it though. Let’s consult the experts in the field of which we’re talking about. There is no physical evidence that Jesus Christ ever existed. I can’t show you his body, nor can I present a video or a photograph of him at the beach. Despite this however, the vast majority of historians today, of all faiths and backgrounds, will tell you that Jesus of Nazareth was a real person. Granted, a small minority of historians deny his existence, but a small minority of historians also deny the Holocaust.

If you want to argue that they’ve got it all wrong, and that we cannot believe anybody existed unless we have scientifically measurable confirmation of their existence because the source might be “corrupt”, then that’s okay, but I don’t think it carries much weight intellectually. Is it possible that Jesus was simply a legend, that his followers lied, or that his followers themselves were imaginary? I guess. But this doesn’t seem like a very likely conclusion.

“Your faith is a subjective choice, more to do with the randomness of the things that defined your geography and history than with any objective reasoning on your part”

And your lack of belief was not shaped at all by these things? None of the atheistic influences you may have had would have failed to reach you had you grown up somewhere else? Tough to believe to say the least.


43 posted on 06/23/2013 4:28:20 PM PDT by Viennacon
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To: James C. Bennett

I wonder if some people think it would be better if there were no God, thus guaranteeing -— guaranteeing -—that those lives would have no possible meaning, no better denouement?


44 posted on 06/23/2013 5:22:36 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("Jesus thrown everything off balance." - Flannery O'Connor)
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To: Viennacon
You ignore chaos theory (the butterfly effect) in your assertion that an all-loving god “could not” do something you deem to be terrible. You have no way of knowing if one child’s death might save millions of children hundreds of years later.

Bingo. I have a relative who is Jewish and will not go to Germany because of the holocaust, also, he doesn't believe in God because why would God allow such a thing to happen? Well, what if the appx. 6 million deaths from the holocaust allowed billions of other lives to exist?

I have a couple of kittehs who are incredibly intelligent (for a cat or Democrat) but us understanding an infinite God whose perception of time we will never understand in this lifetime much like my cats will never understand something like the TV remote. Time for us is linear, I'm sure everyone would like to go back in time to correct a mistake but it isn't happening, for us time goes one way. Now, I don't know how God experiences time or whether time even exists for him and with our linear version of time, we'll never know how God sees time until we see him.

We know he can look forward to future events but much like the character Paul Atredes in the book Dune, he can see time and it is a curse for him because he knows how everything is going to happen, no surprises. Even after he's blinded in the 2nd book, he still walks and acts like he can see because he sees the future which makes me think that God, if he chooses can see every single event that will happen but I think he only looks at the big picture because I think he would like to be surprised. Incidentally, I didn't come up with this idea, Frank Herbert who wrote the Dune series did.

Otherwise, why doesn't God call in all our markers and move on to the thousand year reign of Christ?

45 posted on 06/23/2013 6:30:31 PM PDT by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
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To: RC one

Praise the Lord that Nik Wallenda made it safely across the canyon tonight.


46 posted on 06/23/2013 7:05:26 PM PDT by CHRISTIAN DIARIST
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To: CHRISTIAN DIARIST

An attention whore with a death wish? Thank you, no.


47 posted on 06/23/2013 7:08:20 PM PDT by brewcrew
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To: Lx

Thank you for that theory. I hadn’t ever considered this idea of God keeping some future events from even himself. Would this be logically consistent for an entity that was omniscient by nature?

Time as we understand it only exists in our universe. God as described by Alvin Plantinga would have certain properties, among them spacelessness and timelessness.
Since God transcends the universe, he cannot require time or space to exist. He has to be able to exist entirely without the presence of the universe, similar to abstract objects.
You understand how foolish it is for us to try and apply our very sub-standard understanding of the universe and its workings to an entity that transcends space and time. There is simply no way we could ever comprehend such a being’s reason and thought in our current state. In fact, I would guess even in our state beyond this finite life, when we are joined with God, we will not understand Him completely although our knowledge with be cosmic compared to what it is now. Lucifer, who was also at least a semi-transcendental entity seemed to be ignorant of God’s design and ability despite being with Him, beyond the natural world.

As it relates to the Holocaust and the Jews, it’s important to look at this in the context of Biblical history. The Jews were enslaved in Egypt for over 400 years, and as we learn, there is a grand design and purpose behind this. Certain contingencies had to be met regarding the Canaanites. The dimmest flame of faith and devotion had to be snuffed out through toil and suffering before the inferno of commitment to God was ignited. The Hebrews witnessed the miracles of God firsthand as they were freed and Egypt fell into ruin.
If the Holocaust had not occurred, what would the world look like today, particularly the Middle East and Israel. What would Israel’s population look like? Would it even exist? There are so many variables that its impossible to say. Then you have the problem of human evil. Was the Holocaust simply Hitler’s exercising of free will to do unspeakable evil? Were the events that led to his rise part of a butterfly effect themselves, putting the right man in the right place at the right time?

It is fascinating to ponder such things. Some argue that God removes all mystery. That He is a way of explaining away tough questions. I think on the contrary, God’s existence raises even more questions for us to puzzle over. In the end, we only have one piece of a jigsaw almost infinite in size. We might know where it goes, but we can never see what image it is a part of.


48 posted on 06/23/2013 9:27:49 PM PDT by Viennacon
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To: James C. Bennett; Viennacon
What purpose does a spontaneously (naturally) aborted (miscarried) foetus have, often ejected without the mother even being aware?

Just because yu don't know, doesn't mean there's not a reason.

But perhaps setting the stage for the next baby to come along, who might not have had the pregnancy continued.

I believe I miscarried once but was not sure. A couple months later got pregnant with my youngest daughter. Had the other suspected pregnancy occurred, Yes, I would have had a different child, but obviously, to me, God has a plan for THIS one, the one I have now, who would not exist under different circumstances.

49 posted on 06/23/2013 11:01:48 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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