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To: Viennacon
You ignore chaos theory (the butterfly effect) in your assertion that an all-loving god “could not” do something you deem to be terrible. You have no way of knowing if one child’s death might save millions of children hundreds of years later.

Bingo. I have a relative who is Jewish and will not go to Germany because of the holocaust, also, he doesn't believe in God because why would God allow such a thing to happen? Well, what if the appx. 6 million deaths from the holocaust allowed billions of other lives to exist?

I have a couple of kittehs who are incredibly intelligent (for a cat or Democrat) but us understanding an infinite God whose perception of time we will never understand in this lifetime much like my cats will never understand something like the TV remote. Time for us is linear, I'm sure everyone would like to go back in time to correct a mistake but it isn't happening, for us time goes one way. Now, I don't know how God experiences time or whether time even exists for him and with our linear version of time, we'll never know how God sees time until we see him.

We know he can look forward to future events but much like the character Paul Atredes in the book Dune, he can see time and it is a curse for him because he knows how everything is going to happen, no surprises. Even after he's blinded in the 2nd book, he still walks and acts like he can see because he sees the future which makes me think that God, if he chooses can see every single event that will happen but I think he only looks at the big picture because I think he would like to be surprised. Incidentally, I didn't come up with this idea, Frank Herbert who wrote the Dune series did.

Otherwise, why doesn't God call in all our markers and move on to the thousand year reign of Christ?

45 posted on 06/23/2013 6:30:31 PM PDT by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
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To: Lx

Thank you for that theory. I hadn’t ever considered this idea of God keeping some future events from even himself. Would this be logically consistent for an entity that was omniscient by nature?

Time as we understand it only exists in our universe. God as described by Alvin Plantinga would have certain properties, among them spacelessness and timelessness.
Since God transcends the universe, he cannot require time or space to exist. He has to be able to exist entirely without the presence of the universe, similar to abstract objects.
You understand how foolish it is for us to try and apply our very sub-standard understanding of the universe and its workings to an entity that transcends space and time. There is simply no way we could ever comprehend such a being’s reason and thought in our current state. In fact, I would guess even in our state beyond this finite life, when we are joined with God, we will not understand Him completely although our knowledge with be cosmic compared to what it is now. Lucifer, who was also at least a semi-transcendental entity seemed to be ignorant of God’s design and ability despite being with Him, beyond the natural world.

As it relates to the Holocaust and the Jews, it’s important to look at this in the context of Biblical history. The Jews were enslaved in Egypt for over 400 years, and as we learn, there is a grand design and purpose behind this. Certain contingencies had to be met regarding the Canaanites. The dimmest flame of faith and devotion had to be snuffed out through toil and suffering before the inferno of commitment to God was ignited. The Hebrews witnessed the miracles of God firsthand as they were freed and Egypt fell into ruin.
If the Holocaust had not occurred, what would the world look like today, particularly the Middle East and Israel. What would Israel’s population look like? Would it even exist? There are so many variables that its impossible to say. Then you have the problem of human evil. Was the Holocaust simply Hitler’s exercising of free will to do unspeakable evil? Were the events that led to his rise part of a butterfly effect themselves, putting the right man in the right place at the right time?

It is fascinating to ponder such things. Some argue that God removes all mystery. That He is a way of explaining away tough questions. I think on the contrary, God’s existence raises even more questions for us to puzzle over. In the end, we only have one piece of a jigsaw almost infinite in size. We might know where it goes, but we can never see what image it is a part of.

48 posted on 06/23/2013 9:27:49 PM PDT by Viennacon
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