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{Catholic Caucus] Adieu SSPX
@Vivificat - From Contemplation to Action ^ | 28 June 2013 | TDJ

Posted on 06/28/2013 2:09:10 PM PDT by Te骹ilo

Brethren, Peace and Good to all of you.

As you may know from most Catholic media, the Priestly Society of St. Pius X (SSPX), founded by the dissident traditionalist French Bishop Marcel Lefebvre, has announced its definitive separation from the Catholic Church.

I don't have to go into the details and for that I refer you to the news report. However, I will share my opinion with you: even when I prayed for a miracle, and granted the SSPX the benefit of the doubt, I never really believed they were actig in good faith. You can read my consistent doubts throughout all my posts about the SSPX collected under the "SSPX" tag or category.

I also will tell you the core reason why the SSPX rejected normalization with the Church - an event that will lead them into formal schism again: their core leadership, many of their clergy as well as their laity are a bunch of anti-Semites. Period, yes, that's what it is, I have no doubt about. For them, the Jewish people have no reason to exist, as individuals, as a distinct community, and as a state. They feel odium theologicum against the Jews and therefore disagree vehemently any exchange between the Church and the Jews that is not aimed at obtaining their unconditional capitulation to Christian truth. Since they no longer find the Church a hospitable place to exercise their hatred under the mantle of traditional liturgics and piety, they leave us so that they can hate in peace.

Brothers and Sisters: I have learned to love the usus antiquor, the extraordinary form of the Latin Mass. I love too the Byzantine Liturgy, and I am at home in a Mass of Paul VI properly and reverently celebrated according to the rubrics. The SSPX has no standing whatsoever to judge the Church gathered around Peter's Successor, nor the spiritual standing of the vast majority of Catholic Christians who disagree with their stands. The SSPX is headed to die in the vineyard now that they have cut themselves off from the Church of Jesus Christ.

To those Catholics of good faith that up to now have stood with the SSPX, you now face a serious choice: you either return in body, mind, and soul to the Catholic Church, or dissolve yourselves in the mist of schism and separation. Your salvation depends now on your decision.

Return, oh return, to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Roman Church. Repent, confess, and begin your healing. Then, come with us to help us rebuild the Church.


TOPICS: Catholic; General Discusssion; Judaism
KEYWORDS: catholic; lefebvrists; schismatics; sedevacantists; sspx
Blunders. Typos. Mine.
1 posted on 06/28/2013 2:09:10 PM PDT by Te骹ilo
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To: YellowRoseofTx; Rashputin; StayoutdaBushesWay; OldNewYork; MotherRedDog; sayuncledave; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 06/28/2013 2:10:12 PM PDT by Te骹ilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: Te贸filo

Why waste digital ink over the SSPX, a miniscule group that is still Catholic but in an irregular juridical status until the Vatican says otherwise?

We’ve got far far bigger problems to deal with than a bunch of poor abused Catholics who sought refuge from liturgical abuse and heterodoxy with priests and bishops who still believe and preach the Faith and Liturgy as it was taught for 1960 years.


3 posted on 06/28/2013 2:15:45 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

It’s of interest to me.


4 posted on 06/28/2013 2:21:43 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Te贸filo
I also will tell you the core reason why the SSPX rejected normalization with the Church - an event that will lead them into formal schism again:

Praytell, Teo. Please tell us exactly when, and why, the SSPX entered and then exited formal schism, your Highness. What exactly happened betwixt your two imaginary dates? What iota of Faith did the SSPX reject or invent to transfer them from one status to the other?

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, we have a Pope declaring atheists can go to Heaven and his Princes of the Church are preparing to celebrate Luther's 500 year old attack against the One, True Church.

5 posted on 06/28/2013 2:27:24 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: Brian Kopp DPM

Because it needs to be pointed out that high piety is not foreign to high pride.

The true Traditionalists are faithful to Peter’s Successor. Those who aren’t, follow idols of their own creation. They are not truly Catholics.

This fact needs to sink in in all our minds.

+JMJ,
~Theo


6 posted on 06/28/2013 2:27:59 PM PDT by Te骹ilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: Te贸filo
Repent, confess, and begin your healing. Then, come with us to help us rebuild the Church.

What is your authority to demand confession and repentance, your Highness? What confessions and repentance did the Archdiocese of Campos make? As far a rebuilding your personal idea of a "church", I'm sure the SSPX will pass.

7 posted on 06/28/2013 2:33:42 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: Te贸filo
Because it needs to be pointed out that high piety is not foreign to high pride.

Speaking of high piety, preach it to Francis, Bishop of Rome.

8 posted on 06/28/2013 2:36:06 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

All bishops once ordained by Bp. Lefevbre illictly were once excommunicated, along with Bp. Lefevbre himself. Since they were the in charge of the SSPX, that made the SSPX excommunicated and in schism.

Pope (E) Benedict XVI lifted the excommunications to facilitate their reconciliation. At that moment the SSPX ceased to be in schism and only became an irregular body within the Church.

The new stance by the SSPX ruling bishop rejects dialogue. They might not be right now into schism but I don’t need to be a seasoned vaticanista to know that they’ll soon be back on square one, perhaps by performing illicit ordinations or episcopal consecrations.

I don’t lift myself in judgment of Peter’s Successor and the bishops and faithful in communion with him. That’s the arrogated prerogative of heretics and schismatics. If you don’t want to be in that company, you know what you need to do. Then come and help us rebuild the Church.

+JMJ,
~Theo


9 posted on 06/28/2013 2:39:40 PM PDT by Te骹ilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: ebb tide

My authority derives from my baptismal dignity and my duty to perform the works of spiritual mercy.

+JMJ,
~Theo


10 posted on 06/28/2013 2:40:37 PM PDT by Te骹ilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: ebb tide

Scripture states: “You shall not speak ill of the leader of your people.”

+JMJ,
~Theo


11 posted on 06/28/2013 2:41:20 PM PDT by Te骹ilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: Te贸filo

They aren’t going to accept gay marriage.


12 posted on 06/28/2013 2:43:46 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: Te贸filo

I figured you were an Obama fan.

Did not Paul speak ill of Peter, your Highness? Did not St Catherine to her pope?


13 posted on 06/28/2013 2:46:39 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: nickcarraway

If you feel that the Holy Spirit has abandoned the Catholic Church, feel free to join the SSPX. You will not be the first person to leave the Church in history in protest for one thing or another.

+JMJ,
~Theo


14 posted on 06/28/2013 2:46:46 PM PDT by Te骹ilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: ebb tide

Insulting me will avail you nothing

They never left the Church. And thank you for calling me “Your Highness,” for indeed I am a son of God and brother to the King of Kings. Our Christian dignity is a royal dignity that we often forget.

+JMJ,
~Theo


15 posted on 06/28/2013 2:49:25 PM PDT by Te骹ilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: Te贸filo

We can’t entirely rule out hope for the future, but the news story certainly indicates that they have refused the Vatican’s very generous offers to make an agreement that would let them back into the Church from their state of schism.

I much preferred the traditional Latin Mass and I am constantly irritated by much of the new music and other aberrations in the post-Vatican II Church. The new translation is a big step in the right direction, but it still has its annoyances. But I put up with all that stuff, because it is the One True, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. And it still makes the Mass and Sacraments available to us.

I don’t know if I agree that anti-Semitism is the PRIMARY reason why they have refused to come to an agreement. I suspect that they have learned to enjoy their position of power and authority, and that the breaking point is that they would have to re-submit themselves to the authority of the Magisterium. They’re just too proud and full of themselves to do that. Sad, because a lot of what they objected to was, indeed, objectionable. But they crossed the line into heresy and schism, and now they are refusing to return.


16 posted on 06/28/2013 2:55:44 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Cicero
But I put up with all that stuff, because it is the One True, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. And it still makes the Mass and Sacraments available to us.

HEAR HEAR. :-)

+JMJ,
~Theo

17 posted on 06/28/2013 3:06:21 PM PDT by Te骹ilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: Te贸filo
Then, come with us to help us rebuild the Church.

Well, at least you admit the Church is in trouble. Yet, you have the very "audacity of hope" to ask the very Society you are demonizing to rebuild it!

18 posted on 06/28/2013 3:20:54 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: Te贸filo
You have NO authority to make me or anyone (except yourself) out of the Catholic Church. I am sorry to disappoint you that the Catholic Church is not created in your image. If you don't like Pope John Paul II or Pope Benedict, that is your business, but you have/had no right to "excommunicate" people who supported them.

And contrary to what you think, Pope Francis is not what you say he is. Pope Francis has never said that people who are against gay marriage are excommunicated. Quite the opposite. Why don't you concern yourself with your own soul, instead of vesting yourself with authority you don;t have.

19 posted on 06/28/2013 3:32:16 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: Te贸filo
They never left the Church.

You will not be the first person to leave the Church in history in protest for one thing or another.

Could you please make up your mind! If the SSPX never left the Church, why did you say they were in schism and soon going to enter it again. Do you believe the Orthodox, the Lutherans, Anglicans, etc, also never left the Church?

20 posted on 06/28/2013 3:33:09 PM PDT by ebb tide
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: ebb tide
at least you admit the Church is in trouble.

Just as Christ did in 1205 in the Chapel of San Damiano when He said "Francis, go and rebuild My Church, which you can see has fallen into ruin."

22 posted on 06/28/2013 4:57:56 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Electorate data confirms Resolute Conservative voted for Soetoro)
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To: Te贸filo
And thank you for calling me “Your Highness,” for indeed I am a son of God and brother to the King of Kings.

You have just put yourself above St. John. Why am I not surprised?

The next day, John saw Jesus coming to him, and he saith: Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sin of the world. [30] This is he, of whom I said: After me there cometh a man, who is preferred before me: because he was before me.

23 posted on 06/28/2013 5:13:11 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: A.A. Cunningham

Same complex where Buddhists put a statue of Buddha upon a tabernacle. Same church that suffered severe earthquake damage after one of JP II’s Assisi ecumenical love fests.

St Francis was a fervent missionary who spread the Catholic faith, and he and his priests preached “extra Ecclesiam nulla salus”. What is the current Bishop of Rome, Francis, in comparison? He preaches good atheists might go to Heaven without conversion.


24 posted on 06/28/2013 5:26:31 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: Cicero
We can’t entirely rule out hope for the future, but the news story certainly indicates that they have refused the Vatican’s very generous offers to make an agreement that would let them back into the Church from their state of schism.

What was generous? What other priestly society has had to swear fidelity to an admittedly flawed "pastoral" Council . For goodness sake, not even the converting Anglicans have been required to do so! Not even Campos was put through the crap Rome now demands of the SSPX.

25 posted on 06/28/2013 5:48:07 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

Well, I don’t have the time or interest in entering a full argument about this. Basically, the SSPX argued that Vatican II was heretical, and that the Pope was the Antichrist. Also, that theirs was the true Church and the Catholic Church went off the rails. And so forth.

That is very different from thinking that there were problems with Vatican II. Also, that Vatican II was taken by liberal Catholics, including many priests and bishops, and used to do things that it really didn’t call for. The so-called “Spirit of Vatican II.”

I have read all the documents of Vatican II, and am persuaded that there are no actual heresies in any of them. that accords with the teaching of the Church that the Holy Spirit will watch over it and prevent the Pope, ex cathedra, and formal councils from any heresies. A couple of times Popes have come close, but they have backed away from formal heretical pronouncements. Some Popes have been bad men—the Medicis spring to mind—but even they have not formally promulgated heresies.

On the other hand, not every council is especially useful. Nicea and Trent were vitally important. Some others have pretty much been forgotten, and accomplished little. My own feeling, FWIW, is that Vatican II was one of those. Better if they hadn’t held it, probably, although it’s still too early to tell for sure. Many of the problems were already infesting the Church, and Vatican II was merely an excuse to bring them out.

In any case, SSPX like the Anglicans was given a lot of latitude to do their thing, provided that they consented to recognize the authority of the Church. And it seems that they are refusing to do that.


26 posted on 06/28/2013 6:24:57 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Cicero

“and that the Pope was the Antichrist.”

I stopped right there. Until you provide evidence of the above, I will assume you are not a truthful poster.


27 posted on 06/28/2013 6:39:15 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: Te贸filo
This love of the Church explains the rule that Archbishop Lefebvre always observed: to follow Providence in all circumstances, without ever allowing oneself to anticipate it. We mean to do the same: either when Rome returns to Tradition and to the Faith of all time – which would re-establish order in the Church; or when she explicitly acknowledges our right to profess integrally the Faith and to reject the errors which oppose it, with the right and the duty for us to oppose publicly the errors and the proponents of these errors, whoever they may be – which would allow the beginning of a re-establishing of order. Meanwhile, faced with this crisis which continues its ravages in the Church, we persevere in the defence of Catholic Tradition and our hope remains entire, as we know by the certitude of Faith that “the gates of hell will not prevail against her.” (Mt 16:18)

25th anniversary of the episcopal consecrations

I don't see any "adieus" here, let alone antisemitism. One of these two conditions that they list will be met one glorious day, and your slanders forgotten.

28 posted on 06/28/2013 7:03:34 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: ebb tide

Bishop Lefebvre vacillated on calling the Pope Antichrist, or raising the sedevacantist argument, but he did certainly say that from time to time.

Here’s an extract from a long article that discusses the matter, one of several places in the article where the topic comes up:


Was Lefebvre a sede vacantist? It seems that it depended on his mood, or on the audience he was addressing. In 1980 he wrote to the Holy Father and protested, “I have no hesitation regarding the legitimacy or the validity of Your election. I have already had to condemn these ideas and I continue to do so in the face of some seminarians who allow themselves to be influenced by ecclesiastics outside the Fraternity.” But in his various tours, the ex-Lefebvrite priest informs me, he would speak a “faithful-to-the-pope” line to conservative Catholics, and a suggestively sede vacantist line when talking to radical traditionalists. Like any politician, he played to the audience.

But he threw caution to the winds in the preface of his 1987 letter to the four bishops-to-be. Here he calls the pope an Antichrist, which is a vivid way -of saying the papal seat is empty. Moreover, there exists an audiocassette tape of a Lefebvre sermon given shortly after John Paul II’s 1986 Assisi peace convocation. Basing his charges on that ecumenical gathering, the archbishop says, “I think that when a Pope or bishop honors God in this non-Catholic way, they have the intention of going to God as a non-Catholic, thereby renouncing the Catholic faith. Never has it happened in the Church before that he who sits on the throne of Peter has participated in the cult of false gods. Are we then obliged to believe that this Pope is not Pope? Because it seems impossible that a Pope could be a public and formal heretic.”

The sede vacantist question brings us back to the United States. Three previously Lefebvrite priests, Fathers Cekada, Dolan and Sanborn, have now split from the Pius V Society, which Fr. Kelly had formed when he broke with Lefebvre, to become involved in varying degrees with the cult at Mount St. Michael, whose pretense to Catholicism rests on its connection to the Bishop Thuc (of South Vietnam) lineage. As Lefebvrite seminarians proposed for the priesthood back in the 1970s, these three encountered opposition because of their openly expressed sede vacantism. A delegation of American priests warned Lefebvre.

But the Archbishop. knowing their standpoint ordained them anyway. Then, in 1983, Lefebvre used that excuse, sede vacantism, to kick Fr. Kelly and the others out of the Society. The accusation must have rung hollow, given Lefebvre’s own leanings. Especially since Richard Williamson, openly a sede vacantist as a seminarian at Econe, was later made bishop for North America.


The full article is at:

http://sspx.agenda.tripod.com/id9.html

I was speaking from memory in my earlier post. We lived at one time near the seminary of SSPX in Ridgefield, CT, and I read quite a bit about the matter, pro and con. I was not fond of Vatican II and what came after it, but after considerable investigation, I stuck with the Church—warts and all—because it is the Church.


29 posted on 06/28/2013 7:17:36 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Cicero
Your source is biased and you have yet to prove Archbishop Lefebvre or any of his bishops ever declared the Pope to be the AntiChrist. Why would Bishop Fellay have negotiated with the antiChrist over the past two years? However, I did notice your source quoted priests that were kicked out of the Society as if they were still in it; quite disingenuous of your source. As far as your church with warts: I prefer the Immaculate Bride of Christ.
30 posted on 06/28/2013 7:35:12 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: annalex

Bravo, annalex!


31 posted on 06/28/2013 7:39:49 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Friendly note: This is a Caucus thread.


32 posted on 06/28/2013 9:45:57 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

Sorry, somehow I didn’t even notice.


33 posted on 06/28/2013 11:05:13 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: ebb tide

the Pope did not declare that athiests can go to Heaven. Don’t get fooled by the MSM’s misquotes. Pope Francis clearly stated that Christ’s salvation is for all. If some reject it, their loss, but Christ’s sacrifice was for all


34 posted on 06/28/2013 11:07:48 PM PDT by Cronos (Latin presbuteros>Late Latin presbyter->Old English pruos->Middle Engl prest->priest)
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To: Te贸filo

“Blunders. Typos. Mine.”

With all this hubbub, I had to go read the original for myself.

The blunder is that they just didn’t say what you said they said. Not no way, not no how.

The problem I have, you see, is that I want to remain faithful to the Church as the Spiritual Bride of Christ, and obedient to the Holy Father. However, it is sometimes very difficult to remain obedient to the men who temporarily occupy posts in the Catholic hierarchy, for this one reason: The SSPX is right.


35 posted on 06/29/2013 12:35:13 AM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: Te贸filo

I don’t know about the Anti-Semitism...Williamson is gone. I don’t blame the Society for being skittish, especially now that BXVI has retired.


36 posted on 06/29/2013 1:22:22 AM PDT by informavoracious (We're being "punished" with Stanley Ann's baby. Obamacare: shovel-ready healthcare.)
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To: dsc

I think you are grasping at straws. However, this is your choice. Just be aware that choices have consequences.

+JMJ,
~Theo


37 posted on 07/02/2013 4:38:57 AM PDT by Te骹ilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: Te贸filo

Libel also has consequences. Think about it, before you post more of it.


38 posted on 07/06/2013 7:05:08 PM PDT by ebb tide
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