Skip to comments.Lds Temple Haunted? Did Declaration of Independence signers appear as ghosts to leader? [Vanity]
Posted on 07/04/2013 8:54:37 AM PDT by Colofornian
St. George Mormon Temple Haunted? Did the Declaration of Independence signers appear as ghosts to a later Lds 'prophet'?
Without saying his name, Mormon leaders and grassroots Mormons daily reference Wilford Woodruff when they interact with non-Mormons and the media.
Well, they like to tell others how polygamy is a supposed bygone of another era; how a certain Lds "prophet" in 1890 put the kabosh on it...or, at least, started a mainstream Mormon move toward monogamy.
Yet, there's a little-known episode that this same Wilford Woodruff said that occurred in the 1870s -- before becoming the head "prophet" of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In the last two weeks before he left the St. George, Utah temple, we have at least four accounts that claim that the spirits of the signers of the Declaration of Independence -- with George Washington -- having appeared to Woodruff.
Is the temple haunted? Were these indeed ghosts of the signers?
Could they have been demons in disguise as ghosts?
Or was the one even contemporary Mormons appeal to as the "authoritative" voice of God on polygamy vs. monogamy perhaps given to wild religious fantasies?
Furthermore, does the official Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints play down this occultic episode as being just a small event in the life of Woodruff?
Or are the sources questionable?
The answer to these last two questions is: Not at all. In fact anybody can go to Lds.org and find Lesson 39 of the Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Gospel Doctrine Teachers Manual, where they would see a Sunday School lesson plan that actually plays it up and highlights Woodruff's claims...giving credence that contemporary Mormons buy into it! -- The Hearts of the Children Shall Turn to Their Fathers
In fact, in the lesson plan detailing the account, Mormon church curricula writers then have their teachers ask the question:
What can we learn from these two stories? (Answers could include that those who are dead are anxious for us to perform ordinances for them and that we should be diligent in our efforts to redeem the dead.)
So the Mormon church actually see such occultic ghostly/demonic encounters as evidential of baptizing dead spirits!
Furthermore, Brigham Young University also includes the account as part of their curricula for incoming freshmen who have taken their "Religious Education Intro to LDS Family History (Genealogy)" course. In the BYU version of the account, the comment includes how "those men who laid the foundation of this American Government and signed the Declaration of Independence were the best spirits the God of Heaven could find on the face of the earth. They were choice spirits, not wicked men."
Yet Lds doctrine is that ALL men and ALL church members of the 18th century were "apostates." Joseph Smith claimed that when entities appeared to him -- supposedly early in the 19th century -- that he wasn't to join any of the churches that the founding fathers of our country were part of...plus Smith specifically said that these unnamed entities told him that "all" professors (professing believers) were "corrupt" (see Lds "scripture," Joseph Smith History, Pearl of Great Price, verses 18-20). How could the signers of the Declaration of Independence be both "choice spirits, not wicked" -- and "corrupt?"
Official Mormon doctrine emerged -- a doctrine that remains to this day -- that the historic Christian church went into complete apostasy well before the Founding Fathers came along and remained in apostasy in the 18th century. How can BYU label "apostates" the founding fathers? How can they "play it both ways" -- that the Founding Fathers were both apostates and "choice spirits, not wicked?"
Four accounts of The Haunting of St. George Temple:
1870s (Last two weeks before Woodruff left the temple):
Account #1 (BYU curricula): The following account of Wilford Woodruff helps demonstrate the importance of this work to those who are on the other side of the veil. I am going to bear my testimony to this assembly, if I never do it again in my life, that those men who laid the foundation of this American Government and signed the Declaration of Independence were the best spirits the God of Heaven could find on the face of the earth. They were choice spirits, not wicked men. George Washington and all the men that labored for the purpose were inspired of the Lord. Another thing I am going to say here, because I have a right to say it. Every one of those men that signed the Declaration of Independence with General Washington called upon me, as an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the Temple at St. George two consecutive nights, and demanded at my hands that I should go forth and attend to the ordinances of the house of God for them. Men are here, I believe, that know of thisBrothers J. D. T. McAllister, David H. Cannon and James C. Bleak. Brother McAllister baptized me for all these men, and I then told these brethren that it was their duty to go into the Temple and labor until they got endowments for all of them. They did it. Would those spirits have called upon me, as an Elder in Israel, to perform that work if they had not been noble spirits before God? They would not. I bear this testimony because it is true. The spirit of God bore record to myself and the brethren while we were laboring in that way (Lundwall, 1947, p. 87). Source: Religious Education C261 Intro to LDS Family History (Genealogy)
Account #2 (personal journal of Chief Record of the St. George temple): Temple and witnessed the appearance of the Spirits of the Signers... .the spirits of the Presidents...And also others, such as Martin Luther and John Wesley...Who came to Wilford Woodruff and demanded that their baptism and endowments be done. Wilford Woodruff was baptized for all of them. While I and Brothers J.D.T. McAllister and David H Cannon (who were witnesses to the request) were endowed for them. These men.. ..laid the foundation of this American Gov., and signed the Declaration of Independence and were the best spirits the God of Heaven could find on the face of the earth to perform this work. Martin Luther and John Wesley helped to release the people from religious bondage that held them during the dark ages. They also prepared the peoples hearts so they would be ready to receive the restored gospel when the Lord sent it again to men on the earth. (Personal journal of James Godson Bleak-Chief Recorder of the St. George Temple) p. 2 of this pdf: Vision of Former Eminent Men in The St. George Temple (By Glen W. Chapman, Jan, 2002)
Account #3 (Journal of Discourses): Every one of those men that signed the Declaration of Independence with General Washington, called upon me as an Apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, in the Temple at St. George, two consecutive nights, and demanded at my hands that I should go forth and attend to the ordinances of the House of God for them. Men are here, I believe, that know of this, Brother J. D. T. McAllister, David H. Cannon and James S. Bleak. Brother McAllister baptized me for all those men, and then I told these brethren that it was their duty to go into the temple and labor until they had got endowments for all of them. They did it. Would those spirits have called upon me as an elder of Israel, to perform that work, if they had not been noble spirits before God? They would not. JoD, vol. 19, pp. 229-231, Sept. 16, 1877
Account #4 (Official Lds curricula): Explain that for a period of time, President Woodruff served as president of the temple in St. George, Utah. It was in that temple that endowments for the dead were performed for the first time in this dispensation (see Doctrines of Salvation, 2:171). While serving there, President Woodruff was visited by the spirits of many eminent men who had died. Invite a class member to share the following account by President Woodruff: The spirits of the dead gathered around me, wanting to know why we did not redeem them. Said they, You have had the use of the Endowment House for a number of years, and yet nothing has ever been done for us. We laid the foundation of the government you now enjoy, and we
remained true to it and were faithful to God. These were the signers of the Declaration of Independence [of the United States of America], and they waited on me for two days and two nights.
I straightway went into the baptismal font and called upon Brother McAllister to baptize me for the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and fifty other eminent men, making one hundred in all, including John Wesley, Columbus, and others (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, sel. G. Homer Durham , 16061). What can we learn from these two stories? (Answers could include that those who are dead are anxious for us to perform ordinances for them and that we should be diligent in our efforts to redeem the dead.) ((Lds Sunday School lesson from "Doctrine and Covenants and Church History," "The Hearts of the Children Shall Turn to Their Fathers," p. 3)
Source: Lesson 39 of the Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Gospel Doctrine Teachers Manual -- The Hearts of the Children Shall Turn to Their Fathers
Since this was published, I discovered the online link for Account #3: Not Ashamed of the GospelThirty Years Progress in the MountainsThe Gospel UnchangeableJoseph InspiredPresident Young's WorkWork of the TwelveLabors in St. George TempleGathering of the Spirits of the Dead Discourse by Elder Wilford Woodruff, delivered in the New Tabernacle, Salt Lake City, Sunday Afternoon, September 16, 1877, transcribed by Geo. F. Gibbs on pp223-230 of volume 19 of the Journal of Discourses.
Here is a larger excerpt from this Lds "prophet" -- from Vol. 19, 1877:
...it was a duty that the God of heaven required of him to open up the Gospel to those in the spirit world who had not received it. And there is no greater duty resting upon the Latter-day Saints today than that of building Temples, and officiating therein for the dead as well as the living...We have labored in the St. George Temple since January, and we have done all we could there; and the Lord has stirred up our minds, and many things have been revealed to us concerning the dead. President Young has said to us, and it is verily so, if the dead could they would speak in language loud as ten thousand thunders, calling upon the servants of God to rise up and build Temples, magnify their calling and redeem their dead. This doubtless sounds strange to those present who believe not the faith and doctrine of the Latter-day Saints; but when we get to the spirit world we will find out that all that God has revealed is true. We will find, too, that everything there is reality, and that God has a body, parts and passions, and the erroneous ideas that exist now with regard to him will have passed away. I feel to say little else to the Latter-day Saints wherever and whenever I have the opportunity of speaking to them, than to call upon them to build these Temples now under way, to hurry them up to completion. THE DEAD WILL BE AFTER YOU, THEY WILL SEEK AFTER YOU AS THEY HAVE AFTER US IN ST. GEORGE. THEY CALLED UPON US...two weeks before I left St. George, the spirits of the dead gathered around me, wanting to know why we did not redeem them. Said they, "You have had the use of the Endowment House for a number of years, and yet nothing has ever been done for us. We laid the foundation of the government you now enjoy, and we never apostatized from it, but we remained true to it and were faithful to God." These were the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and they waited on me for two days and two nights. I thought it very singular, that notwithstanding so much work had been done, and yet nothing had been done for them. The thought never entered my heart, from the fact, I suppose, that heretofore our minds were reaching after our more immediate friends and relatives. I straightway went into the baptismal font and called upon brother McCallister to baptize me for the signers of the Declaration of Independence, and fifty other eminent men, making one hundred in all, including John Wesley, Columbus, and others; I then baptized him for every President of the United States, except three; and when their cause is just, somebody will do the work for them. I have felt to rejoice exceedingly in this work of redeeming the dead...
On June 23, Lds had this special worldwide broadcast to its wards about its new missionary emphasis.
In this two-hour presentation, a pre-recorded clip
-- an interview with a long-time Mormon convert --
--Neill F. Marriott (she converted pre-marriage, pre-11 children after graduating from Southern Methodist University) was conducted...
[For who she is, you can see: General Auxiliaries: Sister Neill F. Marriott]...
Anyway, Mrs. Marriott talked about her 11 children as also being "choice spirits"...
What does the term "choice spirits" mean in Mormon culture...
That "special spirits" who existed in the alleged "pre-existence" came down from another planet and inhabited particular bodies.
More than 29,000 church members are expected to report in coming months, bringing the worldwide total of missionaries proselytizing and performing community service to an all-time high of 85,000 by this fall, new church estimates show.
That's 38 percent more than at any other time in history.
At least one church analyst predicts the total could swell to more than 100,000 next year before it levels out somewhat in the next several years. That would be nearly double the number of missionaries the church had during most of the 2000s.
BUT....FR mormons whine and complain about the presence of a few dozen FReepers who bring the truth about mormonism to light.
Church leaders “daily reference” this??? Your credibility is, once again, exposed as near-zero.
I am in my 50’s and have been actively involved in the LDS church for a lifetime, living in multiple states, and I have never, ever heard a church leader reference this, even once.
My impression is that you seem to fall into the category of those who lie to deceive because they suppose that others are lying to deceive.
....obviously "choice spirits" is defined by mormons to point out the superiority of mormonism over all Christian religions and the "speshulness" of its members.
Anyone want to feel what ‘perfumed emptiness’ feels like, just visit a Mormon church.
Its a VERY uneasy feeling.
EXACT same feeling when I visited the Masonic Temple in Alexandria.
Something very ‘false’ about those two places.
An Open Letter to Mormons who are
sincere and serious about their faith...(but slightly troubled and embarrassed by poststhat raise problems with mormon teachings andbeliefs that cannot be answered)If you peruse the Free Republic religion forums
you will notice a pattern. Theres a group of
Christians who spend a great deal of time posting
from Official Mormon Sources - both the Book of
Mormon as well as Mormon Prophets and Church
materials - real quotes from real mormon materials.You will also notice that many of these Christians
are former Mormons who left Mormonism and came to
know the Biblical Jesus Christ and His Gospel of Grace- apart from the treadmill of human works.They have a passion to share what they learned withother Mormons.Of course, they are attacked regularly by a very,
small group of Mormons on FR who have zeal, but no real
knowledge beyond what the Mormon Church has told
them.Why can't these so-called "defenders" provide any:Objective Facts
Or Logical supportAnything OBJECTIVE that any reasonable person would
see and agree that it lends support the claims of
Mormonism.God is a God of real history. He wove the strands ofhuman DNA, His Book, the Bible is rooted and groundedin real places on real maps and is verified througharcheology, geography, history and genetics.If Mormonism is true, why is it based only on subjective
feelings and why doesn't it have the same kind of objective
support the Bible does?Has God changed?Is He no longer in control of the world?If they could support the claims of Mormonism with facts,
you know they would. But it never happens. I've even heardthese "defenders" say God hid all evidence to make ourfaith greater. Has the God of the universe now becomethe Cosmic Easter Bunny? Or is He unchangeable, like theBible teaches?*** Why would God provide every kind of objective support
for the Bible's rich history and none for the Book of
Mormon? ***These "defenders" post links over and over again that
address things yet never provide an answer that is
buttressed by the ring of truth, echoed by history,
archeology, genetics, geography, etc.You deserve more than feelings and non-answers.After reading both sides on this thread and others,
you may very well be wondering about what you were
taught when you joined the LDS church. You also may
be wondering how to resolve the tension of a faiththat is based entirely on subjective claims, yetwants to claim the same God who has commanded youto love Him with "all your mind."You are not alone in this journey.Many have approached us who are Christians asking whereto find out more and some, even, to ask how to come toknow the Biblical Christ and some even how to gracefullyleave Mormonism and start a new life with Christ.Many here have already set out to finally and joyfully know
the true God and Savior. They understand the terrible choice
of being totally sincere about your faith, but increasingly
concerned that it isn't everything you once believed and hoped for.
After coming to know the truth, they are on a path that gives them
the rest God promised to His children and the certainty of His
ultimate plan for them.Here are some links to get you started in your quest to know
the Biblical Christ:In the end though, links may raise more questions and concernsand sometimes it helps to have someone who has already wrestledwith all these issues already.I invite you to private FReep-mail any of the Christians
on this thread to ask questions about the concerns you have.We always do our best to directly answer your questions with
facts, evidence and logical support.Take a step. I also challenge you to not only pray about these issues,but go the one step farther and examine them to see if they aretrue quotes, true teachings of the LDS church. Are you intellectuallyhonest enough to do this, or are you satisfied with just feelingsand a lack of facts, evidence and logic? If you are not willing toexamine your faith, is it because of what you might learn? Or are youindeed intellectually lazy?What do you have to lose at this point? And you have much togain.If something is true, it can withstand any question, no matterhow tough. If it is false, it is better to know while your lifeis in front of you.There is peace and rest waiting for you today. Take a step tofind it now.All the Best,
I quit taking Mormonism seriously after that.
LDS Temple Haunted ...
According to the noted historians Hubert Bancroft and Fawn Brodie, the Saints maintain that their 1836 dedication of the Kirtland, Ohio Mormon Temple featured appearances by "Jesus Christ, Moses, Elijah, Elias, and numerous angels; speaking and singing in tongues, often with translations; prophesying; foot washing; and other spiritual experiences." (See also D&C Sec. 110)
Mrs. Brodie went on to point out that the Saints had made and consumed a large amount of home brew in honor of the occasion, causing a number of them to be bombed out of their skulls.
It has also been well established that LDS leadership has from time to time lived by a different set of rules than those advocated in the Word of Wisdom. For example, Joseph Smith frequented Mossier's Tavern in Nauvoo, before opening a saloon in his mansion there. According to LDS President John Taylor, Joseph also polished off a bottle of wine before he was killed in a blotched jail break. The Tanners have proven that Brigham Young owned a distillery in Utah.
You don't suppose these facts may, in some part, help explain the sightings of ghosts in the St. George Temple?
Just asking ...
I have heard it plenty of times, it is one of the favorite ‘temple stories’. It has often been referenced in conference talks as well as LDS church history manual (official).
Ezra Taft Benson, The Faith of our Founding Fathers, 21 said this...
Shortly after Spencer W. Kimball became president of the Church, we met together in one of out weekly meetings. We spoke of the sacred records that are in the vaults of the various temples of the Church. As I was soon to fill a conference assignment to St. George, President Kimball asked if I would go into the vault at the temple and check the early records. In so doing, I realized the fulfillment of a dream I had had ever since learning of the visit of the Founding Fathers to this sacred place. I saw with my own eyes the records of the work that was done for the Founding Fathers of this great nation, beginning with George Washington. I was deeply moved on that occasion to realize that these great men returned to this promised land by permission of the Lord and had their ordinance work done for them. If they had not been faithful men, if they had not been God-fearing men, would they have come to the elders of Israel to seek their temple blessings? I think not. The Lord raised them up, sanctioned their work, and proclaimed them wise men. Moreover, a president of the Church declared them to be the best spirits the God of heaven could find on the face of the earth, and testified that they were choice spirits and inspired of the Lord.
And there in the St. George temple I saw what I had always hoped and prayed that someday
I would see. Ever since I returned as a humble mi
ssionary and first learned that the Founding
Fathers had appeared in that temple, I wanted to
see the record. And I saw the record . They did
appear to Wilford Woodruff twice and asked why
the work hadnt been done for them. They had
founded this country and the Constitution of this la
nd, and they had been true to those principles
In the archives of the temple, I saw in a book, in bold handwriting names of the Founding
Fathers and others, including Columbus and other
great Americans, for whom the work had been
done in the house of the Lord... .All these appeared
to Wilford Woodruff when he was President
of the St. George Temple. President George Wash
ington was ordained a High Priest at that time.
You will also be interested to know that accord
ing to Wilford Woodruffs journal, John Wesley,
Benjamin Franklin, and Christopher Columbus we
re also ordained High Priests at the time.
(TEACHINGS OF EZRA TAFT BENSON
I can give you other references as well.
My impression is that you seem to fall into the category of those who lie to deceive because they they need to make the LDS church seem ‘normal’.
More sources from current LDS manuals - for someone with the screename ‘justthetruth’ you haven’t been telling it.
We don't call it a living history museum for no reason.
LOL, have to lock up the Vodka from the ghosts.
The one time I visited a Mormon church was during a family trip to Salt Lake City, when we took a tour of Temple Square and listened to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. The people were lovely, and we couldn't have had a better time.
The LDS culture sees the division between the living and the dead as a thin and two-way passable veil. It is commonplace for dead relatives to visit and say things to the living(necromancy, talking to dead people, which scripture forbids) in the LDS world.
Cemeteries in the LDS culture are active places, where the living relatives will leave gifts, leave little solar lights and decorations, leave candles, even leave treats, in the thinking that it will please their relatives.
The cemetery, in fact, is one of the most telling places to indicate that indeed, Mormonism is paganism with a Christian veneer.
We watch it every day, as we live in a 90% LDS community, and our front door has faced the cemetery across the street for the last 23 years.
I am still waiting for anything to remotely support the “daily reference” assertion. Crickets chirping on that one?
Also, when in history have devoted followers of God and their beliefs been considered “normal” by the prevailing religious “orthodoxy” of the world in their day?
Check your reading skills.
#1...The "daily reference" was to Woodruff himself...not this "temple experience" he had with "the dead."
#2...I lumped grassroots Mormons AND church leaders TOGETHER...didn't "single them out" like you did.
#3...as an IDENTITY GROUP, yes, Mormons DAILY reference (at least indirectly) Woodruff.
Why? How? Because some Mormon somewhere...daily...is talking about the polygamy manifesto of 1890 -- issued by Woodruff. The context is usually some Mormon somewhere -- perhaps some Mormon missionary -- saying that "No, we don't engage in polygamy, anymore...back in 1890...President Woodruff..."
The Church Fathers and some modern Christian writers have debated the theological issues raised by this text. The story of King Saul and the Witch of Endor would appear at first sight to affirm that it is possible for humans to summon the spirits of the dead by magic.
Medieval glosses to the Bible suggested that what the witch actually summoned was not the ghost of Samuel, but a demon taking his shape or an illusion crafted by the witch. Martin Luther, who believed that the dead were unconscious, read that it was "the Devil's ghost", whereas John Calvin, who did believe in the immortal soul, read that "it was not the real Samuel, but a spectre."
Many non-Mormons complain too.
That is because we are WAY more effective!
“I am in my 50s and have been actively involved in the LDS church for a lifetime, living in multiple states, and I have never, ever heard a church leader reference this, even once.”
I’ve actively involved myself with LDS for just a year or two and have heard it many times.
Then listen to one whose credibility is above question:
"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;
and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,
and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.
Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)
Deceptive lies are troubling all right...
1836: The Haunting of Kirtland Temple:
Temple dedications were often the scenes of such mysterious occurrences. Joseph Smith wrote of "many strange visions" that were seen when the first temple was dedicated at Kirkland, Ohio on 27 March 1836. It was noted that men would run about "under the influence," while others would "speak in a muttering, unnatural voice and their bodies [would] be distorted...."(49) 49. Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, 1 April 1842, page 747. Source:
Many false spirits were introduced, many strange visions were seen
"Soon after the Gospel was established in Kirtland...many false spirits were introduced, many strange visions were seen, and wild, enthusiastic notions were entertained; men ran out doors under the influence of this spirit, and some of them got upon the stumps of trees and shouted, and all kinds of extravagances were entered into by them; one man pursued a ball that he said he saw flying in the air, until he came to a precipice, when he jumped into the top of a tree, which saved his life; and many ridiculous things were entered into... (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 213-214)
What kinds of "ridiculous things?"
The records of early Mormonism are replete with accounts of activity from the spirit world. According to John Whitmer, who was the official Church Historian in Joseph Smith's time, some converts to the new religion would "act like an Indian in the act of scalping," or would "slide or scoot on the floor with the rapidity of a serpent...."(46) During the ordination ceremony of Harvey Whitlock as a high priest in 1831, he was seen to have "turned as black as Lyman was white," his fingers "were set like claws," and, unable to speak, he went about the room with eyes "as the shape of oval Os...."(47) On another occasion, one man, who weighed over 200 pounds, was thrown through the air by an unseen force, and another "began screaming like a panther...."(48) 46. John Whitmer, John Whitmer's History (Salt Lake City, Utah: Modern Microfilm Company, n.d.), Chapter Six. 47. Max H. Parkin, Conflict at Kirtland: A Study of the Nature and Causes of External and Internal Conflict of the Mormons in Ohio Between 1830 and 1838 (Salt Lake City: Max Parkin, 1966), pages 79-80. 48. Parkin, ibid. Source:
Now did these "spirits" leave Mormons alone after this jumpstart? Not on your life:
"Soon after the Gospel was established in Kirtland...many false spirits were introduced, many strange visions were seen, and wild, enthusiastic notions were entertained; men ran out doors under the influence of this spirit, and some of them got upon the stumps of trees and shouted, and all kinds of extravagances were entered into by them; one man pursued a ball that he said he saw flying in the air, until he came to a precipice, when he jumped into the top of a tree, which saved his life; and many ridiculous things were entered into... (Joseph Smith pp. 213-214)
I miss ol' PD!
HE was about useless when it came to defending his faith; but at LEAST he had a bunch of links that showed interested people where to find the MILK of MORMONism...
Here; in his memory; is The LIST:
Ghosts... ...or the guests?
Didn’t get very deep into theology; did ya...
So, aside from your lack of basic reading skills...allow me to also explain why I even pointed out that Mormons (both leaders and grassroots Mormons TOGETHER) DAILY REFERENCE Wilford Woodruff himself -- even when they do so indirectly?
I mentioned it to show that Mormons don't deem Wilford Woodruff as simply some obscure NOBODY from yesteryear.
IOW, Mormons today -- BOTH leaders AND grassroots Mormons -- cite Woodruff authoritatively as a SOMEBODY...a Mormon AUTHORITY who exercised the sheer power to change the entire Mormon culture from institutional polygamy to institutional monogamy.
|The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
© 2006 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved.
Yeah. You just never know about those spirits.
(I've heard it said they like to HANGover AROUND)
“I can’t remember. It’s been a lifetime since I read it.). Then, further on, it say Isaias appears, and everyone is amazed, except that Isaias is the greek form of Isaiah,”
You know, this is actually a mistake I’ve seen Mormons make in a debate. A Mormon was making some absurd claim (I’ve forgotten the details), and during the process got Isaiah and Esaias confused as two different people. When I pointed out that Esaias is just Isaiah, he wouldn’t believe me. I even showed him proof, and he would not believe me that Isaiah and Esaias were actually the same person. I thought he was just illiterate in the Bible, being a Mormon, but now you make me think that they’re probably taught that there is a Prophet named Isaiah and a Prophet named Esaias who are separate people.
Mormonism is based on feelings, maintained by distortions of history, Scripture and fact, propped up by rituals from Masonism that do not appear in mormonic verses, coerced by fear and ended when The Biblical Lord Jesus Christ intervenes to open the eyes of those who seek truth.
Thank God HE is Faithful!
So far so good; until a Living Prophet® decides to countermand something that WW taught or believed.
Management...and the lapsed Mormons.
So far so good; until a Living Prophet® decides to countermand something that WW taught or believed. [Elsie]
True...As Lds "prophet" Ezra Taft Benson said...a "living prophet" trumps the dead ones...hence...Lds show their true colors not only to readily dismissing the Bible by whim of a current "prophet" -- but even their own add-on "scriptures."
That's why when BYU prof - author Bob Millet defines the Lds standard works as a "standard" to measure all doctrine...that's all a bunch of crock & hooey...
Why? Exactly because of what Elz mentions here: The "standard" becomes, in Mormonism, ANYTHING -- and I mean ANYTHING that the current "living Mormon 'prophet'" declares!
Hence...Elz' comment reminds me of a 1960s survey of Mormons about how many would jump back into polygamy if the Mormon "prophet" told them to do it:
"Another survey taken in the 1960s found that not only do contemporary church members overwhelmingly disapprove of polygamy but only two in five said they would enter the principle if commanded by the prophets." [B. Carmon Hardy, Solemn Covenant, University of Illinois Press, p. 339, citing survey published in 1963 by John R. Christiansen, "Contemporary Mormons' Attitudes Toward Polygamous Practices," Journal of Marriage and Family 25 (May 1963): pp. 167-170)].
Now I don't know about you -- but 40% who said "they would enter the principle if commanded by the prophets" in 1963 is pretty high!
Imagine that, everybody!
2 of 5 of your Mormon neighbors would expand their bedrooms in their homes come the edict from the Mormon "prophet"...
Of the other 3 of 5 of your Mormon neighbors, 2 of them are probably "jack Mormons" and don't pay attention much to what the "living prophet" says, anymore...
The other 20% are households ruled by a wife who would put a "No Trespassing" sign on their bedroom door (or additional husbandly bedroom doors in their home)
Well I know that Joseph Smith didn't know that "Esias" is simply a Greek form of "Elijah" -- and therefore in Doctrine & Covenants mistakenly treats them as two different people.
I read a book by a former Lds "prophet" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr., Religious Truths Defined ... 1959). On page 79, he claims that "pre-mortal spirits are graded."
Hence Mormon leaders try to convey that...
...some pre-existence existed (tho we can't remember it);
...some such spirits there were more "valiant" than others;
...these spirits were "graded";
...and then you get heads of Mormon women's auxiliaries (Mrs. Neill Marriott) -- promoted by the very top etchelon of SLC via its worldwide June 23 broadcast...that "choice" spirits existed in this pre-existence...
...and, of course, these best spirits "landed" in Mormondom on earth.
It's a "neat circle" they've invented that reinforces itself.
It conveys: "Hey, we're great because some spirits were greater in the pre-existence. And the Mormon god of the Church of Mormon picked out those greater spirits to be in Mormon families. And that's just the way it is. (Even tho we can't remember ANY of it)"
Mormon elitism at its finest!
“Well I know that Joseph Smith didn’t know that “Esias” is simply a Greek form of “Elijah” — and therefore in Doctrine & Covenants mistakenly treats them as two different people.”
Now that you mention it, I remember the details now. His mistake (the Mormon I mentioned) wasn’t with Esaias and Isaiah, though I can see him making the same mistake since that’s how it’s spelled in the New Testament (and Smith’s way of doing theology seemed to be rather random). It was with Elias and Elijah. If I remember correctly, his argument was that Joseph Smith was Elijah all along, who was to come before the coming of Jesus Christ. When I replied that this was fulfilled by John the Baptist. He told me that John the Baptist was Elias, a different person. What a poor fellow! But it was an argument I only ever heard once, after many many debates with LDS.
Well, it's not as if the tour guide started speaking of golden plates and the angel Moroni...
I was simply contrasting my experience with that of the previous poster who gets a "very uneasy feeling" of "perfumed emptiness" when he visits a Mormon church. I didn't feel any different at a Mormon church then when I visited any other church, be it Presbyterian, a synagogue, or the Sistine Chapel.
(although in all fairness, I did find the Sistine Chapel very impressive!)
A lost of Irony with a Mormon choosing that as a screen name...
No such thing as ghosts.
They’re demons. Any apparitions are.
Really? Huh my mormon family talk about this “event”
It is written about in lds litature, are you sure you’ve never heard this story?
Hahahahaha So a link is provided to official lds source and you apparently reject it.
SVCW is right.
Here I give a link to Lds.org official curricula (account #4);
+ a link to official BYU curricula (account #1)
+ the Mormon Journal of Discourses...
And yet, the question is: How much other embarrassing historical stuff has your leadership kept from you?
District13 calls this Mormon official curricula stuff about dead spirits appearing to Mormon leaders "ridiculous nonsensical gobbledygook"...and it all really is...unless, of course, it is as Metmom says...demonic agents appearing to Mormon leaders disguised as diseased spirits...THEN we're talkin' 'bout really serious stuff!
Give it up.
I’d be inclined to recommend that you consider finding an obsession other than straining at every historical gnat you think you can detect through your relentless and incessant searching and fault finding; a pattern of living unlikely to achieve a state of happiness, contentment and peace, IMHO.
I won’t be looking back at this string, however, because I have a life to live, focused on better and more fulfilling things to do other than to engage in such pointless debate.
I understand now.