Skip to comments.Man Arrested After Fight Over Church Seats [Mormon church fight over pews spills into parking lot]
Posted on 07/05/2013 9:59:02 AM PDT by Colofornian
And lo, it is written: Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors house, nor thy neighbors seat Unless that seat is being saved, apparently.
Wayne Dodge, 51, was arrested Sunday following a violent row at a Mormon church that reportedly started over seat-saving.
According to Deseret News, Dodge, a regular at the Meadows Ward LDS Church in Plain City, Utah, sat in a section of pews being reserved by a family who does not usually attend the ward.
There [were] some seats that were allegedly saved, and there was a disagreement over whether they were saved or not This continued to escalate throughout the day, Weber County Sheriff Lt. Mark Lowther told FOX affiliate KSTU.
Police said the argument spilled out into the churchs parking lot and became physical. Punches were thrown, and after one man returned from cleaning himself up, Dodge allegedly struck him with his car, according to Deseret News.
Brett Ferrin, bishop of Meadows Ward told KSTU that about 400 people were gathered for a missionary farewell and a baby blessing. Many of the faces in the crowd were unfamiliar as a result. So much for loving thy neighbor.
Ferrin called the incident a teaching moment; Dodge might learn the hard way that lame as it is to save seats, its not worth felony aggravated assault charges. If convicted, Dodge could face up to five years in prison and a $5,000 fine, according to the Utah State Courts website.
I thought only us Southern Baptist did this kind of stuff.
We know where we're supposed to sit or not sit.
No one get's into fights (at least during the services) over where we sit.
Only when the last of the beer is at stake.
You cannot save a pew since it has no soul.
We all carry :)
It was outlandish and completely uncalled for.
When a Missionary is leaving, and when a baby is blessed, people/family/friends come to those meetings from other wards and areas of the country many times. It is always a joyous occassion, and usually a very spirit filled meeting.
But not this time.
When either one of these poccurs, it can make the main worship service meeting pretty crowded and usually extra seating is set up in the cultural hall (the Gynm) which is usually behind the chapel. Those large, heavy, tracked curtains are opened and people sit there in extra seats they set up. That is what happened here.
But, there are also "regular" members who sit in the same seats pretty much all the time during most weeks. Sometimes those folks get a little too attached to those seats and feel they are entitiled. Happens in many congregation...and, I might add, many denominations too.
Well, on this Sunday, the one guy came in and found "his" seat taken by some out-of-towners/visitors, etc. coming to see either a friend or family leave on a mission or have their baby blessed.
This guy basically just went ahead and sat down, even though the people sitting there indicated that they were saving it for others. When the people who they were saved for arrived, they found they could not sit with their family/friends and were upset. They argued and both raised their voices right there in the chapel before the meeting.
After the meeting they continued arguing out into the foyer and then into the parking lot. The "regular," ultimately punched the other man in the face, bloodying his nose. An alteraction ensued and they were pulled apart. The man who was punched, went into the church and washed the blood off and cleaned up as best he could, Then he went back out to go home with his family/friends.
When he came out into the parking lot, the other guy had been waiting and ran into him with his car.
At that point, the agressor was subdued completely by other members, the police were called, and the man was held in the Bishop's office until the police arrived.
A rediculous, and clearly "UnChrist-like" display of emotion, anger, and violence. The guy, from what I have heard, deserves to be convicted and sent to prison.
This guy could have easily just sat somewhere else...even if it had to be in back. Likewise, when the others came in and found him sitting there, they too could have defused it right there by simply sitting somewhere else.
But instead, neither did that and they let their emotions got the best of them and they argued loudly.
Afterwards, they saw one another and continued arguing. At that point too, either one of them could have simply said, "I'm sorry, it's over, and I am not going to tlak any more about it," and left. But it escalated and finally the "regular," lost it completely and started throwing punches.
When that was broken up, the police could have been called, but apparently everyone thought it was over. Until the guy came out of the church and was then hit by the guy with his car.
A sad, sad thing.
Seat saving sucks. In my book there is nothing more rude than telling somebody who is in the process of sitting down that they are not welcome there. It needlessly humiliates. Why do people think this is ok? If your group can’t arrive together then too bad.
What was this anyway? A reenactment of the Mountain Meadows Massacre?
Lord save these seats!
We're not talking about the movies, a parade, a city council meeting here!
Obviously, families come from far and wide to witness obvious deeply meaningful times, especially for the families in question. Maybe the visitors come from the airport or from driving many hours to witness this one time event.
What's the problem with offering a bit of civility, dare I say Christian Love to strangers?
It's a single service, a one time event, meaningful for grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc.
Can't we expect Sunday worshipers to not to sink to the level of mud wrestlers or WWF, over blessing of a new born baby or laying on hands to pray for someone leaving to serve on a foreign mission?
you tube, “don’t sit in my pew”:
***I thought only us Southern Baptist did this kind of stuff.***
They only take over the back rows nearest the exit.. Plenty of room down front.
Comedian Emo Philips:
“Once I was sitting at the Tivoli and this guy says, `Excuse me, is this seat saved?` I said, `Well if Thomas Aquinas reasoned that animals have no souls, how can an inanimate object like a chair achieve salvation?”
“My wives and I always sit here!”.
(Perhaps if it was done by proxy...since the proxy "stand-ins" have a soul...but this would need to come from the top Mormon "prophet," who dictates all doctrinal issues for the entire Planet Earth...say Mormon leaders...repeatedly so)
I appreciate your candor with sharing this.
You are indeed a unique Mormon...one who doesn't feel the need to cover up everything.
(Perhaps that's also a tribute of your Baptist upbringing)
[At least I seem to recall you saying that you're a Mormon convert with such a background]
Well, you do raise an issue that can be more of a problem within Lds facilities for any gatherings.
If you look @ any given Lds parking lot, you will see more vans & other high-capacity passenger vehicles.
Larger families can make it more difficult to simply "squeeze" in where you can if you arrive "later" to a service/event.
Naturally, some larger families become turf-protective for this simple reason.
(Obviously, it didn't seem to readily apply to the perp in this situation)
(99% of boxers, upon losing, get up & fight again)
In the Baptist Church we just sit on the pew.
We were at a funeral of a young man who was killed in Afghanistan. Everyone knows the first few rows are reserved for family and military escort so we sat on the second row behind them and let some of his friends (our kids) sit on the row behind the reserved pews. There is this one woman (sorry, an insult to all women) who took it upon herself to reassign the pallbearers and order everyone around. No, she was no relation and no closer to the family or the young man than any of the rest of us. But, you know, there’s always one and she is it. Horrid creature. An officer asked politely for her to move back just enough for the family and soldiers to be seated but she jumped in his face and made a scene. A few minutes later another officer asked her to move and she proceeded to make an a** out of herself again. A total embarrassement. The military sat down but the family opted to sit in whatever vacant pews. So, there she sat like an island and on display.
Then, at the gravesite, she was all up with the pall bearers. She tore up the pall bearers’ friendships and to this day they haven’t mended. Horrid, horrid, evil monster.
There is no reserved seating unless the church says so. The “regular” did nothing wrong by sitting in the middle of an out of town family.
We call them MAVs - Mormon Assault Vehicles. One pulls up, to doors slide open, and out pops 8 mormons.
I’m thrilled that you have found something this substantive about the evils of Mormonism. Had she been a member of a ‘real’ religion, this clearly would never have happened.
magazine? Jez kiddin'! lol
...and whatever they do they better not start' reachin'?
Ouch. but hey, you started it with the assault jokes. one good joke deserves another, maybe two?
Where's humble? I might need some back-up on this one...
But lds are all such nice people
Being out-familied, I backed down right quick.
"Ok, ok lady. It's your pew". no problem lol -- "but why do ya'll sit in the back corner? I'm just try to sneak in and not be noticed."
slinking away, muttering maybe I'll make it out of here before anybody offers me a visitor's card [grin]
My point is that telling somebody they are not welcome to sit down because a seat is “saved” is rude. Now if the guy knew that the seats were taken so that a family could sit together for a rare special occasion that might also be rude. But in most instances this is not the case. Rather the “savers” are simply looking out for their own convenience.
And they will tell you so, early and often!
And so, what? Are you saying that when people say Mormons are "nice" or "good people" (the shoe on the other foot)...
...that isn't "substantive?"
Why do surface moral judgments about "good/nice" Mormons =substance; and good surface moral judgments about this not-so-nice Mormon is suddenly off-limits?
You know, this whole episode caters to the liberal caricature that Hollywood especially loves to depict "Christians" as...
And so...when counterfeit Christians claim to be Christians, yes, their actions effect the reputation of all of us truly in Christ.
I mean even Mormons recognize this...
I just happened to be reading these past two days a quotebook of Mormon quotes from Mormon women.
One Mormon woman, Belle S. Spafford, said: "The individual behavior of each person who claims to be a Mormon affects the reputation of the Church as a whole, and influences the opinions of people with regard to the general desirability of the religion and its effectiveness in the lives of Church Members. (Original source: Relief Society Magazine, August 1942, p. 550)
Do you think this Mormon woman is wrong?
Mrs. Stafford went on in that article (p. 551) to say that "ALL" Latter-day Saints now have unusual and abundant opportunity to teach the Gospel in the most impressive and effective way--by living according to Church standards every day under all circumstances."
Note that she didn't say "SOME"...now did she?
Mrs. Stafford also wrote in Today's World, p. 62: "Latter-day Saints can remain composed, they can calm the frenzy of others..." [Or, I suppose, they themselves can be the frenzied one -- like this Mormon guy at a Mormon church]
Mormon women like Janette Hales Beckham claimed in this same book that "Our stakes and wards CAN provide a place removed from worldly influences."
(I s'pose the operative word there is "can"...)
Had she been a member of a real religion, this clearly would never have happened.
Hey, I'm not saying Christians in Christian churches haven't gotten "territorial" over "their" pew; but the extreme actions of this Mormon guy puts the burden upon you to back up this statement...and show us examples of where this has occurred under the umbrella of a Christian church.
Thank you for your candor. I was following this story and I agree it was uncalled for.
Im thrilled that you have found something this substantive about the evils of Mormonism. Had she been a member of a real religion, this clearly would never have happened.
You mean the individual person have nothing to do with it?
You mean the individual person have nothing to do with it?
However what you and i see as religion may be different.
Ha! I hate it when people save seats. There’ll be this entire pew with three people sitting there and then you try to sit down and they say, “Sorry, these seats are saved.” Ack! Then the program starts and we're sitting way in the back with the front row still basically empty and then TEN MINUTES LATE here comes a parade of yahoos going up to the front and sitting in that row - making a spectacle and commotion. Come to think of it, they're just lucky I never punched anyone over this. Ha!
You completely miss the point.
Bad behavior knows no religion any better than the rest, as all religions are made up of flawed human beings.
This story has nothing to do with this or that religion and it is silly that it is posted on the Religion forum.
Sorry, JMO, Colofornian.
but the extreme actions of this Mormon guy puts the burden upon you to back up this statement
Your challenge is as silly as the original post being put in the religion forum.
Once you demonstrate that the action was taken because of Mormonism, then we have a useful challenge. Until then, all I see is a story of a guy behaving badly in church.
But to satisfy your odd need to see this happening in other churches (not Mormon), here you go.
Well, my points weren't presented completely.
There is one thing that Hindus, many New Age people, and Mormons have in common: They think they already are divine.
For Hindus & New Agers, they simply need to "realize" their divinity.
For Mormons, their leaders present themselves variously as...
future gods running entire planets
CURRENT divine beings
It's this "CURRENT divine beings" categorization that gets my attention as it relates to our discussion here.
People sin; but in my book, truly CURRENT divine beings don't sin, lest you start throwing stones @ God, Himself...and accusing Him of being less than holy.
Allow me to give you but a few examples:
* "When you dwell on your limitations excessively...you mock God in his very creation. You deny the divinity within you." (Patricia T. Holland, BYU Speeches, Sept. 6, 1988, p. 25)
* When a woman ignores her familial responsibility, frustration will become apparent in her divine nature." (Susan Easton Black, LDS Women's Treasury, p. 18) [And Lds author Aileen H. Clyde likewise references this CURRENT "divine nature" in her book Hearts Knit Together, p. 177]
So...which are we? Flawed human beings? Or divine beings?
Mormonism, like the New Agers & Hinduism, makes claims beyond a simple "flawed human beings" approach.
So how do then some Mormons try to explain such obvious flaws?
Ah...we just forgot for a moment our "divinity within":
"Our forgetfulness of our divinity causes us much grief..." [Lds author Margaret J. Wheatley, Women and the Power, pp. 170-171]
Ah...isn't it "great" to see how Mormons have integrated this New Age "tinge" into their very religion? /sarc [They all agree that we simply have "forgotten" or stuffed this "realization" of our divinity...and we just then need to focus on "self-realization]
Thank you for those examples.
usually a very spirit filled meeting.
Yes so it was
they found they could not sit with their family/friends and were upset.
Couple of things Jeffie
1. Maybe they’ll be on time and not late next time
2. Isnt the guy part of the “family” himself ??? “Brother” “Sister” etc
3. Arent the Mormon one big happy famnily ???
4. Whats with the clichy stuff ???
5. Arent the family going to the celestial kingdom with this guy ???
6. the family are just apostates eh ???
7. the family are just “gentiles” eh ???
8. the family are NOT good neighbors thats fer sure...
And..."Jeffie"? Come on TN, do you think you could work harder at being even a little more condsescending?
It was unfortunate, sad, and totally unseemly behavior, which ultimately became illegal and dangerous.
So the guy was a Mormon? So what? Does that alone make it newsworthy? No...but it is not a common thing in church, although it does happen in other denominations too.
He lost it, assaulted another person, and was arrested and will now be tried in court.
As I said, from people who were there, he apparently deserves to go to jail for what he did.