Skip to comments.Ky. church wants pastor gone after wife's column
Posted on 07/10/2013 3:05:50 AM PDT by markomalley
A newspaper column lampooning Southern Baptists, calling the group "the crazy old paranoid uncle of evangelical Christians," is causing quite a stir in a Kentucky city and put a pastor's job in jeopardy.
The column was written by Angela Thomas, the wife of Bill Thomas, an assistant pastor at the First Baptist Church in Madisonville. Her column was done in response to the Southern Baptist Convention's opposition to a new Boy Scouts of America policy that welcomes gay members.
"Sexuality doesn't come up and isn't relative to typical scouting activities but now, thanks to Southern Baptists, the parents of little innocent scouts everywhere are having to have The Talk," she wrote June 19 in The Madisonville Messenger. She writes a weekly humor column for the community paper, which publishes daily.
In the weeks since, the status of Bill Thomas' job with the church has become unclear. The First Baptist pastor said he had accepted Thomas' resignation, but Thomas' wrote in a letter obtained by the newspaper he had not quit.
Thomas has worked at the church for 10 years and was also its musical director.
Bill and Angela Thomas declined to be interviewed by The Associated Press on Tuesday. But he previously told the newspaper he agreed with what his wife wrote.
The column said Southern Baptists have become "raging Shiite Baptists" after drifting "to the right" for the past four decades.
(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...
Too many in the church think Jesus would have drifted to the left. They better think again.
“Thou shall not make fun of thine husband’s vocation”
“The column said Southern Baptists have become “raging Shiite Baptists” after drifting “to the right” for the past four decades.”
It does sound like she needs to pray. Church politics are brutal but putting something like that in the paper is problematic.
That's so the little tykes will be able to recognize a sexual predator queer scout (or scout leader, once they beat that restriction back) when he comes to the tent (or is already IN the tent).
This is what happens, when a church sets up it’s own version of a ‘corporate board room’. (Find THAT in either ‘Timothy’, if you can.) Also, has this church a current ‘503c’?
It is always amazing to see what happens, when a pastor’s wife opens her mouth, and begins to give her views. A lot of folks don’t accept a pastor’s wife, as a separate, thinking, human being of value, which unknown to them, IS an American value. It seems that “the right to free speech”, ends at the pastor’s domicile, and shall not be seen or heard of, in the outside world. The cry of “Pastor, bridle thy wife!”, must be raging throughout Kentucky, and beyond.
I give her a lot of credit, for stating what she feels needed to be said! The Pentecostal addage, “Wives, submit to your husbands.” has never sat well with me, (and I was married twice), because it -IS- an encroachment on the American right of free speech, bought with blood, (some of mine, too).
Maybe you better.
Pepeat, fire THEIR sorry butts. These ministerial jobs are hard to come by. They can be replaced in a flash.
Ironically, if a conservative pastor’s wife had written a column that made similar sharp criticisms about homos, the same people defending this woman would be in full attack mode against her.
Actually, it's thanks to the predatory perverts on the left that we have to have "The Talk". Back when I was a young Scout (before I became an adult Scouter, and now a former Scouter), any evil pervert who harmed a child sexually would not have made it home. Today? Those who pose a danger to the innocent are part of Scouting's new diversity, thanks to our leadership being hijacked.
As a former Southern Baptist pastor I am stunned that she would think that Southern Baptists have drifted to the right in the past 40 years. Frankly it has probably been more of a move to the left rather than to the right... and I was in college and working as an associate pastor 40 years ago IN KENTUCKY., so I do know a bit about churches in Kentucky, their theology and the climate in leadership.
From the perspective of a Southern Baptist Church that believe the Bible to be true, it is difficult for them not to stand by several scriptures that are specific about these issues.
Like it or not, any married couple who serves in the ministry in any capacity knows that there are limits to what the spouse of an employed person can and cannot do. She absolutely had to know that it would put her husband’s job at risk before she wrote the letter to the newspaper.
If you read the article you will also see that her husband’s job was at risk because he allowed an openly gay person to join the choir. When asked not to allow it, he refused. This flies in the face of the theology they believe and in a church the choir is up in front of the whole church regularly. They represent the church. My guess is that this is the primary issue AND perhaps her motivation for writing the letter in the first place.
I suspect, like churches I have worked at, that a man or woman living with a girlfriend or boyfriend outside of the marriage bond would not be allowed to sing in the choir or hold positions in the church either. Neither would they allow non-Christians to serve in ministerial roles.
I do not give her credit. Anybody can open their mouth and garbage comes out. There should be a little common sense. A woman should support her husband’s beliefs when it is their paycheck, and in his position for goodness sake! The southern Baptist’s support the Word of God and what it says - and I say.....thank goodness.
Gee, I hate to say this ... when I was referring to ‘the corporate boadroom’, you proved my point.
Even when I was a Pentecostal, for more than a year, I have always felt that a wife, anybody’s wife, as long as they are American, has the right to speak her piece, even if you don’t like it! HE married her, not YOU!
But .... who am I? just another American.
This isn’t a “free speech” issue at all. Nobody is saying this woman (and her associate Pastor husband who said he agreed with her) had no right to say what they said. But the congregation and other Church leaders also have rights to speech and if they believe these people do not properly represent their Church then they have every right to fire them. If it was my Church I would make it quite clear that either they go or I go and I would have no problem shaking their dust off my feet and leaving if that’s what it came down to - the Bible commands me to flee from Babylon.
A church is an organic unit and the wife if part if that unit. She repudiated that church and, like the vain and silly fool she must be, has now made it impossible to do his job and he must go. He serves at the pleasure if the congregation and they are offended and undermined. It’s nit unlike being an officers wife in the military. You want the military life? Be s military wife.
The dingbat has it backwards. It was the acceptance of openly gay scouts that made sexuality a topic of conversation in scouting.
It also obviously didn't occur to her that scouting is usually one meeting a week and a week or two of jamborees, etc., per year. The scouts also attend school and many other activities that take up the bulk of their time. The need for "The Talk" is present whether or not a boy is a scout.
She seems to have succeeded at being wrong on every point she thought she was making.
> That’s so the little tykes will be able to recognize a sexual predator queer scout (or scout leader, once they beat that restriction back) when he comes to the tent (or is already IN the tent).
Or already has a tent of his own.
We'd like to believe that churches are perfect, but any Christian will tell you that are filled with people just like you and me. And any good Christian will tell you that the people of the churches face problems just as the rest of us do.
Sin can break out and what is a church body to do? It can ignore it; letting the sin fester - just causing more problems later or the church can use church discipline - dealing squarely with the problem, reducing the effects and getting back on track sooner than later.
It sounds like the assistant pastor's wife touched off a firestorm. If the assistant pastor was also the youth pastor, then the churches parents would have had a major concern for their children (an issue this article studiously avoids).
No church parents wants gay teens making overtures to their sons in the churches boy scout program. If those overtures are successful what are the parents to do? What is the church to do? Ignore it and just watch it fester?
So, I believe the wife's article touched off a firestorm of controversy just as the Devil and the mainstream press so loves. And while Worldly folks pile on, the church struggles on to deal with the problem.
In this case, I commend the church for using graceful church discipline. Grace, because a severance package was offered. Good church discipline is evident because if was contingent upon non-disclosure (no need to give the churches detractors more ammunition). However, it seems the assistant pastor has not abidded the church Elders (who had to approve such a package in the first place) causing yet another headache for this congregation.
My prayers of support go to God for this church in it's attempts to resist the obvious attempts by the world to infiltrate it with sin.
Thus I am requesting a PRAYER BUMP for this Congregation (and other Congregations) dealing with such worldly attacks, That the Elders be given even more Wisdom from Above to quench the fiery darts of the wicked one. And to be enabled yet again to serve the Lord with gladness; ministering to the needy so in need of His gracious Salvation from such sin and death.
Practicing Southern Baptists, like practicing Catholics, believe that Marriage is between one man and one woman, and that homosexuality is an abnormal, sinful, hedonistic, chosen life style which shouldn't be pushed.
Didn't the pastor's wife know what her husband did for a living?
Certainly she has a right to say anything she wants to ... but if the people that employ her husband don't like it, they can fire him.
If a wife wrote a column in which she described the management structure and owners of the Madisonville, KY hardware store where her husband works as "a bunch of nazis and perverts", he might find himself unemployed the next day .. how is this different than that?
Exactly, this chosen life style of sin that is being pushed by the enemy in order to lead many away from God's gracious Love for a mess of sexual pottage.
I can see the humor in what she wrote. /not
No kidding! Especially if her husband says he agrees, as this pastor’s done. Yup, going to be some employment issues there.
I would wonder if the pastor himself helped pen this letter. How does a congregation call a pastor or remove him in a Baptist church? Could it be he wants "out" of this congregation and this is how he and his wife decided to begin the process?
It depends on each local church. in the Southern Baptist Convention each church is autonomous. They can fire or hire at their own will and pleasure. As I mentioned, in the article it said that he also allowed an openly gay person to be in the choir even though the senior pastor instructed him not to. The senior pastor is Shepard of that flock and an associate pastor really would not have the right to flaunt the wishes of the church or the senior pastor. The board most likely makes those types of decisions and they were trying to allow him to resign. In the Southern Baptist denomination a firing pretty much means that you don’t find other jobs, so a resignation would allow him to find employment at another church.
Problem is that this is that church’s prerogative and right and should have been a private matter.
True. The worship team, be they vocal or instrumental, are in ministry. I was put through the proverbial wringer when I got divorced, although once they realized my husband abandoned me I was allowed to stay. Had I initiated the divorce for any reason other than abuse or adultery, I would have been asked to leave the orchestra. We represent the church.
It’s not mere adage, it’s part of God’s inerrant, infallible, and fully sufficient Scripture. And that passage puts as much or more obligation on the husband. Sadly, too many don’t understand it within the church, so I certainly don’t expect those outside the church to get it.
The wives in my church are treated with honor and respect. And they are a credit to their husbands, they are real ladies who would never embarrass their husbands by being in open rebellion against God’s moral order in the local newspaper.
King James Version (KJV)
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
You probably don’t like what the Bible has to say about remarrying if your first spouse is still alive. I hope you follow the rules a bit closer on envy, theft, murder, gossip and egotism.
As an Eagle Scout, former Scoutmaster and District Committee member, I know the Scout Oath and its passage about being MORALLY STRAIGHT, and any Scout having sex outside of marriage is breaking that oath. “Openly Homosexual” means practicing homosexual and is against the Scout Oath.
Boys may join the Scouts at age 11 or the fifth grade and continue until age 18, or 21 in the Explorers. Everything is fun and fine until an “openly gay” 17 year old decides he is attracted to a fifth grader......
Furthermore, Baptists in the SBC do not generally consider themselves Pentecostal.
....Thomas has worked at the church for 10 years and was also its musical director. Bill and Angela Thomas declined to be interviewed by The Associated Press on Tuesday. But he previously told the newspaper he agreed with what his wife wrote. The column said Southern Baptists have become "raging Shiite Baptists" after drifting "to the right" for the past four decades.
That was no "drift".
The issue at hand here seems to be wanting to LIBERALIZE the Southern Baptist denomination and using their church leadership position to do so which is wrong and conduct that should be questioned by the church. Deacons would be wise in asking them both to move on. That should be well within a churches right to set their own doctorine and standards of conduct for membership in same. Oh and I would say the same for any member of the church doing this.
Why should her and her husband be so special? Sure both of them can have an opinion and even attack their church. If it is public then their church has the right to ask them to leave. It's not that complicated really.
When I first read this story, certain verses from the 14th chapter of Proverbs came to mind.
14:1 “Every wise woman buildeth her house: but the foolish plucketh it down with her hands.” I hope this family is ready for unemployment because that is the likely outcome. Did her foolish rebellion pluck prosperity out from under her family?
14:8-9 “The wisdom of the prudent is to understand his way: but the folly of fools is deceit. Fools make a mock at sin: but among the righteous there is favour.”
14:12 “There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.”
14;25 “A true witness delivereth souls: but a deceitful witness speaketh lies.”
14:33-34 “Wisdom resteth in the heart of him that hath understanding: but that which is in the midst of fools is made known.Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.”
Both are opposed to the very clear teaching of the Bible. This did NOT happen because "the local church set[s] up it's (sic) own version of the corporate board room". The issue was brought up at the Southern Baptist Convention voted on and approved.
You seem concerned as to whether or not "this church has a current '503c' ". I assume that you mean the 501(c)(3). "Organizations described in section 501(c)(3) are commonly referred to as charitable organizations."
Do you advocate that a tax exempt status be revoked due to opposition to the homosexual targeting of young boys? California is trying to rule that teenaged boys can use the girls restrooms & showers. Would a church's opposition to co-ed camping trips by teenagers also displease you?
The American right of free speech is in regard to governmental restraints, not private. It also happens to be enumerated in a phrase which is PRECEDED by the prohibition "impeding the free exercise of religion", which was also "bought with blood, (some of mine, too)".
Churches routinely & rightly prohibit freedom of speech (e.g., vulgar jokes & music), freedom of the press (Playboy & Hustler in the hymnal racks on the back of the pews) and they would most likely "interfere with the right to peaceably assemble" ("No, you cannot hold your weekly poker game with whiskey & cigars in the back of the sanctuary during Sunday morning services!")
The US government is trying very hard to Establish a religion (The 1st Church of Sodomy) and the very first phrase in the First Amendment clearly prohibits this.
Finally, I suggest that you re-read the Bill of Rights and, since you mentioned them, the New Testament books of First and Second Timothy. In particular, 1Timothy 1:6-10
"Some have departed from these and have turned to meaningless talk. They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.
We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurersand for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine"
You may be right on the money here. The whole resigned vs. terminated issue sounds like someone jockying to receive unemployment benefits. The whole patter of behavior may be someone looking for a way to get fired that would still allow them to collect unemployment.
In all fairness, I need to back off on this assertion a bit. I see now the Church offered a severance package, so I may be way off base here.
I'm mildly curious about two things:
1) Do you claim to be a Christian?
2) Do you know the origin of that "Pentecostal addage (sic)"?
The wife's character and behavior is taken into account when hiring a pastor. God has made them one flesh, she is as important as he is to the health of the church.
There was no outcry that she voiced her views. That is both expected and needed in the church. The outcry is that her views are anti-biblical.
I give her a lot of credit, for stating what she feels needed to be said!
What she said was "I do not believe in the bible as the inspired word of God. I believe the bible is wrong and that homosexuality is a perfectly acceptable lifestyle. I believe that homosexuals should be allowed to prey upon our younger boys in boy scouts."
This is not an acceptable belief for a pastor to have. And if his wife has it, but he does not (Although he publicly agreed with her so we know he also holds it), then he is failing to rule his own house (as required by scripture) and allowing his wife to not only believe heresy but to preach it. He has failed both her and the church.
The Pentecostal addage, Wives, submit to your husbands. has never sat well with me, (and I was married twice),
Ever think that maybe the reason you had to be married twice is that you did not accept what the bible said about it? (Although please interpret it correctly in the full light of scipture. The verses quoted above by another poster do not make the wife a slave to her husband).
because it -IS- an encroachment on the American right of free speech, bought with blood, (some of mine, too).
She has every right to free speech. No one said she didn't. But the church also has every right to fire her and her equally non-believing husband because they are promoting homosexuality (and thus enabling the homosexuals to go to hell, rather then dragging them back from the edge and getting them saved). They should never, ever get another job in ministry as they obviously don't believe God. They are not Christians.
Well, it didn't. But it isn't the Southern Baptists who introduced the subject. To the best of my knowledge, the Scouts had no policy requireing boys, or scoutmasters, for that matter, to declare their sexuality. Their ban was on "out" homosexuals. How could they know if a boy didn't announce his orientation, or get caught in the act?
No, the gays wanted to shove their perversions in your face and make you like it. But the Baptists, all real Christians in fact, are just never going to like it.
"CONGRESS. SHALL. MAKE. NO. LAW."
"Free exercise" of speech, of the press, of religion, means this in practice: a whole lot of people deploying their speech, press, and religion as they see fit, with no government interference.
It means Ms Ministerial Wife has the right to print her divisive, hyperbolic and insulting views about the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) in the newspaper, and it means the Baptist Church has a right to hire and fire at their discretion.
The "right to free speech" means speech without government censorship, not without real-world consequences.
This woman wanted her words to be "impactful," as they say, and lo and behold, they had their impact. She should be marveling that people read her and took her seriously.
She sure can't blame the Church for saying "You don't want to be associated with 'raging Shiite Baptists'? Fine. You're outta here."
Dear Mrs. Don-o,
Very well written.
“If ya’s don’ t’ink d’at da’ folks iz gonna read d’em woids, d’en don’ go and put d’em in dah paper!”
Personally, I think she has had a long-time ax to grind, and somebody handed her that proverbial ‘straw’.
Why not also tell them that if the scout master makes them angry, just yell “He touched me! He touched me!” and he’ll do anythinbg you want.
“Nonsense! the right to free speech means the government shall not interfere with it. It doesn’t mean private individuals can’t bring social pressure on the speaker. That would interfere with their free speech.”
That last sentence - about interfering with free speech. Isn’t that what this is all about? Unless you agree with women having bridles in their mouths, and short whips stuck-you-know-where, and prancing around like pretty ponies with long tails.
Just because “she is the pastor’s wife”, does NOT shut off her right to open her mouth and say what she thinks, parishoners be damned.
I did notice, when in my days of insanity as a Pentecostal, there was a sort of Pentecostal ‘PC’ speech, too.
Arrogant Bastard wrote:
“ I’m mildly curious about two things:
1) Do you claim to be a Christian?
2) Do you know the origin of that “Pentecostal addage (sic)”?”
1. I’m an ordained U.L.C. minister.
2. I was a member of Smithtown Gospel Tabernacle, N.Y., for 8 years.
Does that do it for ya?
I have no idea what a U.L.C minister is.
Prior membership in what I presume to be some pentecostal congregation does not imply knowledge of the origin of some phrase purported to be a Pentecostal adage.
Why not just answer the questions directly?
The answer to (1) is either "Yes" or "No".
Legitimate answers to (2) could be more complex, but simply claiming prior membership in some organization is NOT an answer.
Wow!!! That was really difficult to obtain, wasn't it? Years of study? Careful examination of your learning by acknowledged experts? I'm not sure I'm up to it ...
“I do not give her credit. Anybody can open their mouth and garbage comes out. There should be a little common sense. A woman should support her husbands beliefs when it is their paycheck, and in his position for goodness sake! The southern Baptists support the Word of God and what it says - and I say.....thank goodness.”
So, you want her silent, only to respond with ‘yes dear’, and “kiss his tukus”, for the entirety of their marriage?
How’s that old song go?
Oh yes ... “Be pretty, Be quiet, and Be ready.”
This is 2013. The day of the submissive wife, outside of those ‘special relationships’ where that is accepted, ahem, has been gone for a long time.
If I remember right, there is an old story that God put Lilith and Adam together first. how did that work out?
Angela and her husband are not representing the beliefs of this church.
“He serves at the pleasure if the congregation and they are offended and undermined. “
Please find me in either Timothy’s, where the pastor is at the flock’s whim?
Thank you for proving ‘board room ethics’, again.
Only government is required to respect freedom of speech. Churches, businesses, and other public and private institutions do not have to put up with speech that is derogatory or destructive to their objectives. Her attitude reflects back toward the church, and the church is free to ask her and her husband to leave.