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Where Does the Bible Say We Should Pray to Dead Saints?
catholic-convert ^ | July 11, 2012 | Steve Ray

Posted on 07/14/2013 3:02:43 PM PDT by NYer

Are saints who have physically died “dead saints” or are they alive with God?

A friend named Leonard Alt got tired of being hammered by anti-Catholic Fundamentalists on this issue so he decided to write this article. I thought you might enjoy it too, so here it goes…

Leonard writes: I wrote this note after several days of frustration with people, on Facebook, saying that saints can’t do anything, because they are dead. They seem to be leaving out the fact that the souls live on. ENJOY!

Dead and gone? Where is his soul-his person?

An antagonist named Warren Ritz asked, “Who are the “dead in Christ”, if not those who walked with our Lord, but who are now no longer among the living?” He is correct; the “dead in Christ” are those saints who have physically died. “For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first” (1 Thess 4:16).

THE CONCEPT OF LIVING SAINTS CAN DO HARM TO THE “JESUS ALONE” DOCTRINE. From some people’s point of view, people who have died are classified as “dead saints,” who can do nothing. They are no longer a force to reckon with; they can no longer appear; they cannot talk nor do other things. These same people don’t want the saints who have died doing anything because this would be another reason why the Protestant doctrine, “JESUS ALONE” fails. If the so-called “dead saints” do anything then it is not “JESUS ALONE,” but Jesus and the saints cooperating. And it would also mean that the so-called “dead saints” are in fact not dead, but alive with God.

Dead or in paradise?

HIS PHYSICAL BODY DIED BUT HIS SOUL LIVED ON. But, are the Saints who have gone before us alive with God or are they truly “dead saints” who can do nothing as some would suggest? Yes, their bodies are dead, but their souls live on. For example Jesus said to one of the criminals on the cross next to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise” (Lk 23:43). Yes, that day, this man became the dead in Christ because his physical body died on his cross; however, Jesus said that today, this man would be with Him in paradise. He was no “dead saint” because his soul was alive in Christ in Paradise.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob alive and concerned for their descendants

HE IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING. One person alluded to Mark 12:26-27 saying “Jesus is the God of the living, not of the dead” in an attempt to show that Jesus cannot be the god of those who have died; after all he says “Jesus is the god of the living.” However, he left out three people who were no longer alive in verse 26; Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. God said that He was their God. And so does that mean that God is the God of the dead? No; “He is not God of the dead but of the living.”

Abraham Isaac and Jacob are physically dead and yet their souls are alive because their God is not God of the dead but of the living and thus do not qualify as “dead saints.”

Moses was dead and buried. How could he talk to Jesus about future events on earth?

WHEN MOSES AND ELIJAH APPEARED WERE THEY DEAD OR ALIVE? There are those who insist that saints who have died are nothing more than “dead saints” who can do nothing. I usually ask them this question. When Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, were they dead or alive? “And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah” (Lk 9:30). Not bad for a couple of so-called “dead saints;” not only did they appear, but they were talking as well. The question that I asked usually goes unanswered.

SORRY LEONARD…YOU HAVE A BAD ARGUMENT. Bill says, “As Ecclesiastes says the dead have nothing more to do under the sun…sorry Leonard…you have a bad argument.” He is using this as definitive Biblical proof that people on the other side cannot do anything once they have died. After all, Ecclesiastes does say, “For them, love and hatred and rivalry have long since perished. They [the dead] will never again have part in anything that is done under the sun” (Eccles 9:6).

When a person dies their body is in the grave; it is dead. They can no longer work under the sun, in this world. However, Ecclesiastes 9:6 is not a prohibition against the activity of the person’s soul, which lives on. This of course begs the question; is there any indication of personal activity of a soul after death, in Scripture?

How did the bones of a dead guy bring another dead guy back to life?

Yes, there are a number of examples and here is one of them. Elisha after dying performed marvelous deeds. In life he [Elisha] performed wonders, and after death, marvelous deeds (Sir 48:14). “Elisha died and was buried. At the time, bands of Moabites used to raid the land each year. Once some people were burying a man, when suddenly they spied such a raiding band. So they cast the dead man into the grave of Elisha, and everyone went off. But when the man came in contact with the bones of Elisha, he came back to life and rose to his feet” (Kings 13:20-21).

Using, Ecclesiastes 9:6 as a prohibition against all soul activity after death is to use the verse out of context and at odds with other parts of the Bible. Ecclesiastes 9:6 is referring to the physical body that has died, not the soul that lives on. Elisha, after death performed marvelous deeds. It can’t be much clearer than that!

The saints are not dead but alive in the presence of their Lord Jesus and part of the praying Mystical Body of Christ

JESUS NEVER CLAIMED THAT THOSE WHO HAVE DIED ARE “DEAD SAINTS.” Jesus understood well that when someone dies, they will live and in fact those who live and believe in him WILL NEVER DIE.

Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this” (Jn 11:23-26)?

This union, with the saints on this side and the saints on the other side is referred to as the communion of saints in the Apostles Creed. Those who insist that “dead saints” can’t do anything because their bodies have physically died seem not to understand that their souls live on and are very involved.

So, where does the Bible say we should pray to dead saints? I would ask, Where does the Bible say saints are dead?



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ministry/Outreach
KEYWORDS: catholic; deadsaints; doctrine; prayer; scripture
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1 posted on 07/14/2013 3:02:43 PM PDT by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 07/14/2013 3:03:11 PM PDT by NYer ( "Run from places of sin as from the plague."--St John Climacus)
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To: NYer

Saint Skittles?


3 posted on 07/14/2013 3:03:35 PM PDT by LyinLibs (If victims of islam were more "islamophobic," maybe they'd still be alive.)
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To: NYer
Where Does the Bible Say We Should Pray to Dead Saints?

Where does the Bible say that the Bible says everything?

4 posted on 07/14/2013 3:04:00 PM PDT by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise.)
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To: NYer

I do enjoy axing the older folks if they believe in ghosts. They better!


5 posted on 07/14/2013 3:07:48 PM PDT by Libloather (The epitome of civility.)
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To: NYer

We are actually forbidden to talk to the dead; Saul was reprimanded for calling Elijah up to talk to him.

So it can be done, but we are not supposed to do it.


6 posted on 07/14/2013 3:08:12 PM PDT by Persevero ( What is your 'fair share' of what someone else has worked for?" -Thomas Sowell)
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To: NYer

Are there any “living saints”?


7 posted on 07/14/2013 3:08:37 PM PDT by reg45 (Barack 0bama: Implementing class warfare by having no class.)
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To: NYer

Not a very good article.

In the end, here’s what we have...

1. Straw man argument about being “dead”.
2. “Departed saints” is a better term.
3. The Bible does not encourage praying to departed saints.
4. The Bible does not show an example of praying or talking to a departed saint.
5. The Bible doesn’t command praying to departed saints.
6. There is no record that any Apostle or 1st century Christian prayed to a departed saint.
7. There is no evidence that the departed saints hear what you say to them.
8. Pretending a departed saint hears you doesn’t mean they do. It is an argument from silence.
9. If this was a powerful, wonderful Christian practice, why is it never mentioned in the Scriptures that are able to make a person of God mature/complete?
10. Cults love communicating with the dead.


8 posted on 07/14/2013 3:09:44 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ( “The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws.” - Tacitus)
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To: NYer

OK, if we accept the premise that the “saints” are alive but not of this world anymore. Why should we pray to another person, whether they be on earth or in heaven?


9 posted on 07/14/2013 3:10:49 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: reg45

“Are there any “living saints”?”

Every believer in Christ who has entrusted himself to Him is a saint - now.


10 posted on 07/14/2013 3:10:50 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ( “The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws.” - Tacitus)
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To: Jim Noble

The answer to both questions is NOWHERE.

;-)


11 posted on 07/14/2013 3:11:22 PM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: NYer

“where does the Bible say we should pray to dead saints?”

where does the Bible say we should pray to anyone but God?


12 posted on 07/14/2013 3:12:17 PM PDT by ctdonath2 (Making good people helpless doesn't make bad people harmless.)
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To: Jim Noble

Where does the Bible say that the Bible says everything?

“16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Tim 3:16)

“18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” (Revelation 22:18-19)

Lots more but that sort of sums it up.


13 posted on 07/14/2013 3:12:19 PM PDT by Persevero ( What is your 'fair share' of what someone else has worked for?" -Thomas Sowell)
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To: NYer

Extremely specious arguments. How is it logical to conclude that “the spirits of the dead are in paradise, therefore, they are omnipresent and omniscient on Earth, capable of hearing my prayers and aiding me?”

Nowhere in scripture does it state that we are to pray to the saints in heaven. In fact, the prayer of David in his Psalms is to his God, not to anyone else. Christ instructs us to pray “to our Father who art in heaven.” We are commanded to “pray in the name of Jesus Christ” for to receive blessings from the Father. The Holy Spirit is said to “intercede” on our behalf.

This is a truly pathetic and weak article.


14 posted on 07/14/2013 3:12:54 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

Is the Bible the pillar of truth for a Christian?


15 posted on 07/14/2013 3:13:08 PM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: SumProVita

The Holy Scriptures alone are God-breathed and able to make a man of God complete. Hopefully, the Church does it’s job in holding up the veracity of God’s Word.


16 posted on 07/14/2013 3:14:51 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ( “The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws.” - Tacitus)
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To: SumProVita; Jim Noble

I’m sure that ridiculous assertion makes you two feel good. There certainly is no history of the English in the Bible, or instructions on Chemistry. However, for all Christian purposes, it is complete:

2Ti 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

If it is capable of making the “man of God... perfect, thouroughly furnished unto all good works,” it doesn’t sound like there is anything else we need, unless there is some level beyond perfect.


17 posted on 07/14/2013 3:15:24 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

Since the Roman Catholic Church waits until after someone is dead before that person is declared to be a saint, I thought that the term “dead saint” might be redundant like “ATM Machine”.


18 posted on 07/14/2013 3:17:13 PM PDT by reg45 (Barack 0bama: Implementing class warfare by having no class.)
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To: driftdiver

I guess the great Joan of Arc (Jehanne T’arc) should not have spoken to Archangel Michael & St. Catherine to lift the siege of Orleans. But it certainly works for me!


19 posted on 07/14/2013 3:17:58 PM PDT by miss marmelstein ( Richard Lives Yet!)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Gee, I wonder how the Apostles and first Christians survived without that Bible?

Um..one other thing...where does the Bible state that it contains the COMPLETE teachings and/or that we need nothing else?


20 posted on 07/14/2013 3:19:27 PM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: miss marmelstein

You didn’t answer the question.


21 posted on 07/14/2013 3:19:45 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

The Holy Scriptures alone are God-breathed and able to make a man of God complete.

________________________

Where do the Holy Scriptures state exactly that?


22 posted on 07/14/2013 3:20:56 PM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: SumProVita; aMorePerfectUnion
Is the Bible the pillar of truth for a Christian?

For Christians, yes. For Catholics, not so much.

Yesterday saw...a forceful plea from a key papal advisor [Bishop Salvatore Fisichella, the rector of the Lateran University and President of the Pontifical Academy for Life] to reject the idea of Christianity as a “Religion of the Book”....

.......the big debate over Dei Verbum at the time of the council pitted what was then known as the “two-source theory,” which held that Scripture and tradition are essentially two separate streams of revelation, against the “one-source theory,” which posited that Scripture is the lone source of revelation and tradition is an elaboration of it. In effect, Dei Verbum held that Scripture and tradition are interdependent and integrally related to one another.
-- from the thread Synod: Christianity not a 'Religion of the Book'

"As we begin the work of this synodal assembly, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, let us turn our gaze to Christ, the light of the world and our only teacher," Cardinal Levada encouraged.

The prelate's point was further developed when Cardinal Marc Ouellet, archbishop of Quebec, took the floor to affirm that the Word is much more than the Bible. He clarified that Christianity is not a religion of the Book.

"The Word of God means before all else God himself who speaks, who expresses in himself the divine Word that belongs to his intimate mystery," he said.

This Word, he added during his Latin-language discourse, which he delivered seated beside the Pope, speaks in a particular and also dramatic way in the history of man, especially in the election of a people, in the Mosaic law and the prophets.
-- from the thread Cardinal Says Scripture Inseparably United to Tradition


23 posted on 07/14/2013 3:21:16 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("...Someone handed the keys to the Forum to the OPC and its sympathizers...")
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To: NYer

I’m not Catholic.

BUT

There is a bit of Scripture which says, and I paraphrase, That which is bound up on Earth, shall be bound up in Heaven.

I take this to mean that, our Earthly concerns, will have SOME weight, in the Final Judgment.

There are SOME people, that WE regard as particularly HOLY, as we, mere mortals, deem them.
These are the people that WE (mortals) deem as Holy and Christ-like, despite their Earthly Coil, i.e., All men are sinners and fall short of the Glory of God...

Anyway, as I have said, I am not Catholic, and have not been raised to give credence to the Saints, though now, I am re-thinking...

When one thinks that they understand the mind of God, they understand nothing...


24 posted on 07/14/2013 3:22:02 PM PDT by Paisan
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To: Alex Murphy

For Christians, yes. For Catholics, not so much.

____________________________

1. Catholics are Christians.
2. WHERE does the Bible state that the Bible is the pillar of truth?


25 posted on 07/14/2013 3:22:57 PM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: SumProVita

“Where do the Holy Scriptures state exactly that?

The passage has already been quoted on this thread at least twice...


26 posted on 07/14/2013 3:24:14 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ( “The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws.” - Tacitus)
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To: NYer
I've seen verses in the Bible describing clearly that the real self is the eternal soul, and the mortal body is a covering of the soul. The consciousness is coming from the soul, not the body made of material elements - so praying to "dead" saints means praying to those who are eternally alive and in perfect loving relationship with God. Same exact principle in the Hindu texts.

1For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed on with our house which is from heaven.

2 Corinthians 5

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Corinthians 5.6

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

C.5.8

And I found this one too:

I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body...

Peter 1.14

Just for comparison, verse from the Bhagavad Gita 2.20:

For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain.

27 posted on 07/14/2013 3:25:02 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: SumProVita

So you’re questioning the accuracy of the Bible?


28 posted on 07/14/2013 3:25:51 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: SumProVita

“Gee, I wonder how the Apostles and first Christians survived without that Bible?”

the Hebrew Scriptures were already there... as Paul tells Timothy. From childhood, he had known the Scriptures that are able to make you wise to salvation.


29 posted on 07/14/2013 3:26:14 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ( “The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws.” - Tacitus)
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To: SumProVita

“Gee, I wonder how the Apostles and first Christians survived without that Bible?”


Since the Apostles were scripture producers, and claimed to be writing scripture in the first place, I imagine they survived quite well.

“Um..one other thing...where does the Bible state that it contains the COMPLETE teachings and/or that we need nothing else?”


Try re-reading my post again before asking me to repeat myself.


30 posted on 07/14/2013 3:26:33 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Alex Murphy

The Word of God means before all else God himself who speaks,...

_______________________________

Makes sense to me...as I’m sure it did to the Apostles and first Christians.


31 posted on 07/14/2013 3:26:45 PM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: driftdiver

As an old-fashioned, 50s type Catholic, I don’t even read the Bible. (Put your eyebrows back on!) But I do pray to my favorite saints, one of whom includes Jehanne and Francis of Assisi.


32 posted on 07/14/2013 3:27:22 PM PDT by miss marmelstein ( Richard Lives Yet!)
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To: NYer

So why do Jews leave the door open and a glass of wine for ELIJAH if he is dead and can do no more???


33 posted on 07/14/2013 3:29:50 PM PDT by Ann Archy (Abortion.....the HUMAN Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: miss marmelstein

So why do you pray to other people instead of the Lord Jesus Christ Son of God who died for your sins?

As a 50s type Catholic I assume you read Catholic produced doctrine.


34 posted on 07/14/2013 3:30:23 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

I did read your post and saw nothing that stated we needed nothing else besides the Bible.

You stated: Since the Apostles were scripture producers, and claimed to be writing scripture in the first place, I imagine they survived quite well.

Hmmmm...well when Paul was writing...did the Christian communities (or even the rest of the Aposltes and disciples) have access to all the books of the Bible? When did they first have access to the Bible? Exactly how many years went by in the history of Christianity before there was a Bible?


35 posted on 07/14/2013 3:31:11 PM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: SumProVita

Well quoted in post 13


36 posted on 07/14/2013 3:31:14 PM PDT by petro45acp (It's a fabian thing.....how do you boil a frog? How's that water feelin right about now?)
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To: Paisan
Anyway, as I have said, I am not Catholic, and have not been raised to give credence to the Saints, though now, I am re-thinking...

That's good keep it up! Contrary to what some believe, the Church actually encourages her members to think for themselves, and consider issues carefully. Not just blindly accept everything without careful thought.

So as you continue to do so, keep this thought in mind: It is written that the prayers of the righteous "availeth much". Now consider: who could possibly be more "righteous" than those in heaven already? This is truly why their intercessory prayer is so highly prized.

Truly the only question one should consider in this issue is, whether of not it's possible for those in heaven to "hear" the prayers of those on earth. All the other objections ultimately point to and are related to this question.

God bless! And I'll pray that all the Saints pray for you as well!

37 posted on 07/14/2013 3:31:29 PM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

Huh?


38 posted on 07/14/2013 3:31:58 PM PDT by elkfersupper ( Member of the Original Defiant Class)
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To: little jeremiah; NYer

Except Christianity isn’t Hinduism, nor is it actually taught that our ultimate form is to be souls without bodies. That form is certainly an incomplete one. The Catholic article erroneously quotes the following scripture in support of the Spirits being alive. While spirits are certainly not “dead” by the modern definition, they are not “alive” since to be dead in the first place means a separation from the body.

The verse they quoted is in reference to the resurrection of the dead. The body and soul being reunited at the great resurrection at the end of time.

Mat 22:31-32 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, (32) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.


39 posted on 07/14/2013 3:32:30 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: driftdiver

“So why do you pray to other people instead of the Lord Jesus Christ Son of God who died for your sins?”

Maybe because He listens to a billion prayers every second? He needs a break too, you know.


40 posted on 07/14/2013 3:34:36 PM PDT by max americana (fired liberals in our company after the election, & laughed while they cried (true story))
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To: driftdiver
No! My type of Catholic never read doctrine. Baltimore Cathecism was enough for me.

Yes, I do pray to my favorite saints for interception with God. I also collect Sicilian votives of various body parts so that I can get relief from my sinuses, etc.

41 posted on 07/14/2013 3:36:02 PM PDT by miss marmelstein ( Richard Lives Yet!)
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To: FourtySeven

<<
<
=
=
What part of ONE don’t you understand? Jesus is our mediator - not anyone else.

1 Timothy 2:5

King James Version (KJV)

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus


42 posted on 07/14/2013 3:36:09 PM PDT by Catsrus (`)
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To: petro45acp

Sorry...but I don’t see the word *alone* in that quote anywhere.

I think all Christians agree that the Bible is an amazing, living source of teaching, inspired by God to assist us in following the WAY with Jesus...but I have never seen any Scripture that says it “alone* can teach/guide us. It does NOT say that the Bible is the pillar of truth for us either.


43 posted on 07/14/2013 3:36:10 PM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

I was merely pointing out the similarity of the understanding that the soul is alive, and the earthly body is a covering like a tent.

You see it differently, that’s all.


44 posted on 07/14/2013 3:37:25 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: driftdiver

Where does the Catholic church teach that we pray “to” the Saints in heaven?


45 posted on 07/14/2013 3:37:40 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge ("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
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To: SumProVita

“I did read your post and saw nothing that stated we needed nothing else besides the Bible.”


I can’t help you if you refuse to read the facts. Sorry. You can either actually respond to what I say or play stupid. But, I’m not obligated to play stupid along with you.

“Hmmmm...well when Paul was writing...did the Christian communities (or even the rest of the Aposltes and disciples) have access to all the books of the Bible? When did they first have access to the Bible? Exactly how many years went by in the history of Christianity before there was a Bible?”


Presumably the Old Testament always existed. And the New Testament was written and handed down to the church as they were being produced. Ignatius, Polycarp, and Irenaeus, from the end of the 1st century to the middle part of the 2nd century, quoted from essentially every book in the Bible, save maybe 2 Peter or Jude. That demonstrates that the scripture was already available, most of it being written before the destruction of the Jewish Temple, with the only stragglers possibly being the work of John, who survived after the Temple’s destruction.

Not to mention, all of the Apostles had the authority to produce scripture, and to be regarded as Prophets, so as long as they were alive, no written text was even necessary, and anything God inspired in them to write is what would become our treasure after they pass.


46 posted on 07/14/2013 3:37:41 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: NYer

“Let the dead bury the dead.”


47 posted on 07/14/2013 3:37:49 PM PDT by Armaggedon
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To: Catsrus

A mediator!= An intercessor.


48 posted on 07/14/2013 3:38:08 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge ("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

“And the New Testament was written and handed down to the church as they were being produced”

You never answered his question. When did the Church have access to the New Testament in the form that we have it today?


49 posted on 07/14/2013 3:39:08 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge ("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
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To: JCBreckenridge

Jesus is our only mediator


50 posted on 07/14/2013 3:39:27 PM PDT by GeronL
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