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Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Saints
Mormon Stories ^ | November 28, 2010 | Elder Marlin K. Jensen (LDS Church Historian) and Richard E. Turley Jr

Posted on 07/21/2013 3:31:29 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans

This is a transcript from a meeting between Mormon church historians and some rather intelligent "disaffected Swedish LDS Saints."

Once you get past the greetings and enter the question and answer phase, it basically transforms into a bloodbath for the official "church historians." Quite embarrassing and breathtaking for the LDS.

One of the interesting things that came out from this exchange was, unlike most LDS, the Mormon defenders from the LDS History department admitted that Joseph Smith was guilty of polyandry. (Marrying women still married to righteous Mormon men.) Their response was not a response, but basically saying that "times were different" in the past, and that there are things we cannot understand about certain aspects of church history, yet we (they) know Joseph Smith is true because of the burning of the bosom given by the Mormon Holy Spirit.

Due to its length, I'll just post the link for your perusal.

http://mormonstories.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Turley_Jensen_Stockholm_2010.pdf


TOPICS: Apologetics; Current Events; General Discusssion; History; Humor; Other Christian; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: bloodbath; inman; lds; mormonism

1 posted on 07/21/2013 3:31:29 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: greyfoxx39

Can ya ping this thread for me?


2 posted on 07/21/2013 3:33:03 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; Colofornian; Elsie; svcw; Zakeet; Tennessee Nana; aMorePerfectUnion; ...

Pingaling. ;-)


3 posted on 07/21/2013 3:37:38 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Mormonism is the only religion that teaches God will forcibly separate your family after you die.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
"the Mormon defenders from the LDS History department admitted that Joseph Smith was guilty of polyandry."

HORNDOG PROPHET ALERT!!!

4 posted on 07/21/2013 3:39:01 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ( The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws. - Tacituss)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

A fairly high-ranking member claimed to me that Joseph Smith never married anyone else, with the claim that because it couldn’t be ‘proven’, it didn’t happen. This was just a couple of years ago.


5 posted on 07/21/2013 3:43:09 PM PDT by OldNewYork (Biden '13. Impeach now.)
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To: OldNewYork

The LDS historians essentially confess to every aspect of those claims, but they rationalize it or evade it. They even justify “lying for the Lord,” comparing it to defending your children from murderers by telling a lie.


6 posted on 07/21/2013 3:45:43 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Shouldn’t we talk about the budget or Trey rather than bashing Mormons with the truth?


7 posted on 07/21/2013 3:47:28 PM PDT by bethelgrad
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To: bethelgrad

I dunno. I have argued with the LDS on the streets, in religious forums and in my own home.

Ignore history, DNA evidence, archeology, common sense, or whatever.

The truth does not matter. Look at the nonsense with Zimmerman. They do not and will not listen to the truth. Jury exonerated him, yet the government still wants to persecute him? What happened to the Constitution? Double jeopardy, maybe? Perhaps that is too big of a word to use against the liberal media.

After all, they are wearing tampons as earrings.

Hell, Mr. Ed from MSNBC is blaming repubs for Detroits troubles.

What planet is he from? What is it? 51 or 61 years since they had a pub in charge? They are all liars, pimps and whores.

I am an old man. When the Jehovah Witnesses came to my grandpa’s house while my father was serving in WW2, he kindly threw them down the steps.

I know countless that deserve the same treatment.


8 posted on 07/21/2013 4:11:43 PM PDT by bobo1 (the KDE plasma desktop is awesome!)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/us/some-mormons-search-the-web-and-find-doubt.html?hpw&_r=0

NYSlimes says questions like these....

Why does the church always portray Joseph Smith translating the Book of Mormon from golden plates, when witnesses described him looking down into a hat at a “peep stone,” a rock that he believed helped him find buried treasure?

Why were black men excluded from the priesthood from the mid-1800s until 1978?

Why did Smith claim that the Book of Abraham, a core scripture, was a translation of ancient writings from the Hebrew patriarch Abraham, when Egyptologists now identify the papyrus that Smith used in the translation as a common funerary scroll that has nothing to do with Abraham?

Is it true that Smith took dozens of wives, some as young as 14 and some already wed to other Mormon leaders, to the great pain of his first wife, Emma?

9 posted on 07/21/2013 5:41:30 PM PDT by Drango (A liberal's compassion is limited only by the size of someone else's wallet.)
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To: OldNewYork
A fairly high-ranking member claimed to me that Joseph Smith never married anyone else, with the claim that because it couldn’t be ‘proven’, it didn’t happen.

You must have been speaking toe an Rlds member.

THAT Mormon denomination disavows any hanky-panky on JS' part.

10 posted on 07/21/2013 7:23:24 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: OldNewYork
... with the claim that because it couldn’t be ‘proven’, it didn’t happen.


Eliza was a devout Mormon.
At age 38, she became Joseph Smith's 14th plural wife (in addition to Smith's lawful wife, Emma).
In 1842, after learning Eliza was pregnant, Emma Smith beat Eliza with a broomstick and
knocked her down a flight of stairs, causing Eliza to miscarry Smith's baby.

Miss Eliza R. Snow  was one of the first (willing) victims of Joseph in Nauvoo. She used to be much at the prophet’s house he made her one of his celestial brides... . Feeling outraged as a wife and betrayed as a friend, Emma is currently reported as having had recourse to a vulgar broomstick as an instrument of revenge: and the harsh treatment received at Emma’s hands is said to have destroyed Eliza’s hopes of becoming the mother of a prophet’s son (Dr. W. Wyl, Mormon Portraits, 1886, pp.57-58).

The Mormon writer Claire Noall acknowledged: “Willard realized that Emma had refused to believe that any of the young women boarding at the Mansion when it was first used as a hotel had been married to Joseph. She had struck Eliza Snow at the head of the stairs, and Eliza, it was whispered, had lost her unborn child” (Intimate Disciple, a Portrait of Willard Richards, 1957, p.407).

Sometime during February of 1843 Emma evidently became aware that Joseph had taken her best friend, Eliza R. Snow, as a plural wife. Eliza was currently living in the Smith home, which housed a number of boarders. LDS historians Linda Newell and Valeen Avery wrote:

When the full realization of the relationship between her friend Eliza and her husband Joseph came to her, Emma was stunned. . . . Although no contemporary account of the incident between Emma and Eliza remains extant, evidence leads to the conclusion that some sort of physical confrontation occurred between the two women. In 1886 Wilhelm Wyl published the first known version of the incident in his book, Joseph Smith the Prophet: His Family and His Friends:

They say . . . there is scarcely a Mormon unacquainted with the fact that Sister Emma . . . soon found out the little compromise arranged between Joseph and Eliza. Feeling outraged as a wife and betrayed as a friend, Emma is currently reported as having had recourse to a vulgar broomstick as an instrument of revenge; and the harsh treatment received at Emma’s hands is said to have destroyed Eliza’s hopes of becoming the mother of a prophet’s son...

Another story, attributed to LeRoi C. Snow, Eliza’s nephew, is an oral family tradition that tells of Emma knocking Eliza down the stairs with a broom, the fall resulting in a miscarriage for Eliza. . . .

Whether Eliza fell down the stairs or whether Emma pushed her or pulled her down by the hair, or whether Emma only turned her out of the house, the result seems to be documented in Eliza’s terse journal entry for February 11, 1843:

‘Took board and had my lodging removed to the residence of br. [Jonathan] Holmes.’

Eliza did not make another entry in her journal for five weeks and wrote no explanation for either the gap in her diary or her abrupt departure from Emma’s home. . . .

Several acquaintances of Eliza spoke of Emma discovering Eliza’s relationship with Joseph, leading to her departure.

 

The incident between Emma and Eliza forced the issue of plural marriage into the open. Emma could no longer believe that Joseph was not involved, and he could no longer deny it. Emma had not acted with violence before; now her determined opposition might show up again with unexpected force. Joseph resolutely tried to bring Emma around (Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, by Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery, 1994, pp. 134-137).



http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no106.htm

 



 
 

11 posted on 07/21/2013 7:29:42 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: bobo1
When the Jehovah Witnesses came to my grandpa’s house while my father was serving in WW2, he kindly threw them down the steps.

 

If you have cable TV, there won’t be much on to watch.


 

 

 

 

If there isn’t much on to watch, you will answer your door whenever someone rings.


 

 

 

 

If you open your door, you will see mormons.


 

 

 

 

If you talk to mormons, they will trick you into “praying about whether something is true”.


 

 

 

 

If you rely on your feelings, you may become a mormon.


 

 

 

 

If you become a mormon, you will have to wear magic underwear!


 

 

 

 

If you wear magic underwear, people will immediately label you as a cultist.


DON’T be a cultist!
Get DirectTV.


12 posted on 07/21/2013 7:32:22 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Drango
Why does the church always portray Joseph Smith translating the Book of Mormon from golden plates, when witnesses described him looking down into a hat at a “peep stone,” a rock that he believed helped him find buried treasure?

Uh... because it LIES???


The following are the LYING images that MORMONism has produced, KNOWING that they represent something FALSE!!
 
 
   

13 posted on 07/21/2013 7:33:46 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Drango; teppe; District13; restornu; Normandy
The following are the LYING images...




"Now the way he translated was he put the urim and thummim into his hat and Darkned his Eyes than he would take a sentance and it would apper in Brite Roman Letters. Then he would tell the writer and he would write it. Then that would go away the next sentance would Come and so on. But if it was not Spelt rite it would not go away till it was rite, so we see it was marvelous. Thus was the hol [whole] translated."
---Joseph Knight's journal.


"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."
(History of the RLDS Church, 8 vols.
(Independence, Missouri: Herald House,1951),
"Last Testimony of Sister Emma [Smith Bidamon]," 3:356.

"I, as well as all of my father's family, Smith's wife, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, were present during the translation. . . . He [Joseph Smith] did not use the plates in translation."
---(David Whitmer,
as published in the "Kansas City Journal," June 5, 1881,
and reprinted in the RLDS "Journal of History", vol. 8, (1910), pp. 299-300.

In an 1885 interview, Zenas H. Gurley, then the editor of the RLDS Saints Herald, asked Whitmer if Joseph had used his "Peep stone" to do the translation. Whitmer replied:

"... he used a stone called a "Seers stone," the "Interpreters" having been taken away from him because of transgression. The "Interpreters" were taken from Joseph after he allowed Martin Harris to carry away the 116 pages of Ms [manuscript] of the Book of Mormon as a punishment, but he was allowed to go on and translate by use of a "Seers stone" which he had, and which he placed in a hat into which he buried his face, stating to me and others that the original character appeared upon parchment and under it the translation in English."


"Martin Harris related an incident that occurred during the time that he wrote that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon which he was favored to write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone, Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and when finished he would say 'Written,' and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used."
(Edward Stevenson, "One of the Three Witnesses,"
reprinted from Deseret News, 30 Nov. 1881
in Millennial Star, 44 (6 Feb. 1882): 86-87.)

In 1879, Michael Morse, Emma Smith's brother-in-law, stated:
 
 "When Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon [I] had occasion more than once to go into his immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph's placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the scribes Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down."
(W.W. Blair interview with Michael Morse,
Saints Herald, vol. 26, no. 12
June 15, 1879,  pp. 190-91.)


Joseph Smith's brother William also testified to the "face in the hat" version:
 
"The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God"
("A New Witness for Christ in America,"
Francis W. Kirkham, 2:417.)


"The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret was the same manner as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, while the book of plates were at the same time hid in the woods."
---Isaac Hale (Emma Smith's father's) affidavit, 1834.




14 posted on 07/21/2013 7:34:59 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Drango
Is it true that Smith took dozens of wives, some as young as 14 and some already wed to other Mormon leaders, to the great pain of his first wife, Emma?



15 posted on 07/21/2013 7:35:57 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Polygamy: How it all got Started
 



 
 
 
Joe: Hey Emma!   Guess what!?
 
Emma: You KNOW I hate these guessing games! What is it, Dear?
 
Joe: I heard a voice, probably the Lord, tell me I must take other wives.
 
Emma: WHAT!?   You ding bat!  Don't you KNOW what our precious BOOK says?   After all; YOU are the one that translated it!
 
Joe: Books; schmooks.   All I know is I've been COMMANDED to take other wives and you are to OBEY ME!!!
 
 
Emma:      "Though shalt NOT commit ADULTERY!!!"
 
 
Joe: Silly Woman!  You KNOW better than to take things out of CONTEXT!!!
 
 
 
 
 

 
...and the rest is HISTORY...
 

 
 
 
 
 
THE BOOK OF JACOB
THE BROTHER OF NEPHI
CHAPTER 2
 
  24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
  25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
  26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
  27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
  28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
  29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
  30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
  31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
  32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
 

Or even HERE:
 

 1 Timothy 3:2-3
 2.  Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
 3.  not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
 
 
1 Timothy 3:12
   A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well.
 
 
 Titus 1:6
   An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.



 
 
Emma: That's IT!   I'm LEAVING your sorry *!!! 
  
            Can't you EVER get straight what GOD tells you???
 
          Doctrines and Covenants 49:16 Wherefore, it is lawful that he should have one awife, and they twain shall be bone flesh, and all this that the cearth might answer the end of its creation;
 
 
 
 
Joe:  DARN you Emma; you were TOLD to accept this!!   Wait!!!   I hear a voice again!!!
 
 


 
THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 132
 
  51–57, Emma Smith is counseled (commanded) to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.
 
 
  51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to aprove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.
  52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.
  53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.
  54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and acleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be bdestroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.
  55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ahundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of beternal lives in the eternal worlds.
  56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid aforgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to brejoice.


16 posted on 07/21/2013 7:37:18 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

No, a regular, responsible, office-holding elder in mainstream LDS.


17 posted on 07/22/2013 3:05:25 PM PDT by OldNewYork (Biden '13. Impeach now.)
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To: OldNewYork

HMMmm...

a sign that he didn’t know too much about what he had chosen to join.


18 posted on 07/22/2013 3:50:01 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

He was born into it, basically.


19 posted on 07/23/2013 1:47:14 AM PDT by OldNewYork (Biden '13. Impeach now.)
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To: bethelgrad; Greetings_Puny_Humans
Shouldn’t we talk about.......Trey rather than bashing Mormons with the truth?

Good point.

Ya think the LDS have baptized Trey yet?

20 posted on 07/23/2013 2:30:28 AM PDT by Gamecock (Member: NAACAC)
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To: OldNewYork

That’s the hardest bunch to reach with the UN’restored’ gospel; as it is their entire family and lifestyle and culture that will be displaced.

BUT...

...our GOD managed to get through to me; who had NO religious background - other than what little had filtered down through secular society - 50 years ago.


21 posted on 07/23/2013 4:08:04 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Gamecock
Ya think the LDS have baptized Trey yet?

ONLY if some family members have advanced his name.

(I think that's how it's supposed to work - I have no information on the details of what we un'restored' Christians refer to as Dead Dunking.)

22 posted on 07/23/2013 4:10:01 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Gamecock
I think that's how it's supposed to work - - -

I found some stuff:


The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints encourages its members to baptize the dead in their families going back at least four generations.
 
The church also has teams at headquarters in Salt Lake City and that travel around the world to identify as many people as possible to baptize,
whether or not they’re in the lineage of present-day Mormons. “The church is constantly going through parish records, wills, deeds and every other
genealogical source so they can extract names and put these people through the temple process,” says Bushman.
 
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/02/16/explainer-how-and-why-do-mormons-baptize-the-dead/
 
 
 
 
 

23 posted on 07/23/2013 4:18:24 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
...that there are things we cannot understand about certain aspects of church history...

DANG!

Ol' Joe SHOWED them how to DO it!!

"If any man lack wisdom...


24 posted on 07/23/2013 4:20:40 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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