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Joel Osteen and In-N-Out Are our hearts changed by something within us or by Someone outside us?
The Aquila Report ^ | July 22, 2013 | Marc5solas

Posted on 07/22/2013 6:38:29 AM PDT by Gamecock

If you’ve never had the pleasure of eating an In-N-Out Burger, you are missing out on one of the little, artery clogging,  pleasures of life.

As for the name, it’s about as basic and simple as you could get.  You come in, get your burger, and go out.  Fast, easy, and well.. tasty.

Inside of you is hunger, outside of you are tasty burgers for your enjoyment.  You go there, get one, and satisfy your hunger. There are no burgers inside of me, so I go out, where there are burgers.  Simple. Not exactly deep theology here.. right?

Can you imagine the absurdity and utter confusion of getting that basic premise wrong?

Would it be absurd? Would it be mocked?  You would think so, but I recently saw this obvious error applauded and treated as if it was the deepest, most philosophical, life-changing truth imaginable by no lesser names than media mogul Oprah Winfrey and “christian” Pastor Joel Osteen.

Before you think I unfairly listed Osteen as “christian” (in quotes), let’s watch his latest appearance on Oprah’s “Lifeclass.”

Did you catch the quote?

“You’ll never rise any higher than you see yourself.” – Joel Osteen

Hmm.  So, how high I rise (externally/out) is based upon me (internal/in) and how I see myself (internal/in).

So the answer to the external is from within.. how I view myself, and as he states later, what words I speak about myself.

You’ve got to see this … Joel Osteen’s view, his teaching in the role of “Pastor” is that the external is determined by the internal (You, your view, your mindset, and your words).

Sounds good, and boy, does it sell.  Oprah has built a multi-billion dollar media empire. Joel Osteen “Pastors” the largest church in the United States, it’s also helped sell books like “The Secret” and spin up careers of Oprah’s other Lifeclass speakers.  But what does scripture say?  Is THIS the message of Christianity, that the internal controls the external?  That it’s IN that controls OUT?

The written word of God, inspired by God the Holy Spirit is clear.. it’s not the SOLUTION that’s in us, it’s the PROBLEM!

(I’m going to intentionally quote a LOT of scripture this week. I want the sheer weight and volume of scripture which speaks to this core issue to blow you away.  While Joel Osteen doesn’t quote a single verse, here is a mere sampling of God’s word on the issue. Read them all now, or later, but they’re here for your reference.)

1. Men are born in sin:

2. As all men have sinned, they are slaves to sin:

3. The heart of sin is UNABLE and UNWILLING to do good. It is, in fact, HOSTILE to God:

So, if we are born in sin, slaves to sin and hostile to God, unable to do good works… is the heart a good place to be looking?

Yes, for those in Christ, He has changed their heart of stone into a heart of flesh.  But.. where does that come from? IN or OUT?

Our righteousness? OUT! It is an external (or what some call “alien”) righteousness. Our only hope in life and death is the external/OUT righteousness of Christ!

“The first is alien righteousness, that is the righteousness of another, instilled from without.  This is the righteousness of Christ by which he justifies though faith, as it is written in I Cor. 1:30:  “whom God made our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption.”  In John 11:25-26, Christ himself states:  “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me…..shall never die.”  Later he adds in John 14:6, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.”  This righteousness, then, is given to men in baptism and whenever they are truly repentant.  Therefore a man can with confidence boast in Christ and say:  “Mine are Christ’s living, doing, and speaking, his suffering and dying, mine as much as if I had lived, done, spoken, suffered, and died as he did.”  Just as a bridegroom possesses all that is his bride’s and she all that is his—for the two have all things in common because they are one flesh[Gen. 2:24]—so Christ and the church are one spirit [Eph. 5:29-32].  Thus the blessed God and Father of mercies has, according to Peter, granted to us very great and precious gifts in Christ [II Pet. 1:4].  Paul writes in II Cor. 1:3; “Blessed be the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places.”

- Martin Luther

So, do you see the completely backward message of Joel Osteen? Not only is it not biblical (Did you hear a single mention of Jesus, or a single passage of scripture in his dicussion?) it’s the polar OPPOSITE of biblical Christianity.  And he’s telling unregenerate sinners (who the bible says are slaves to sin and UNABLE to please God) that they are blessed and victorious?  That’s not just incorrect, it’s rank heresy. He’s speaking peace and victory to people who in their unregenerate state are destined for hell.  Smiley face and sweet voice or not.. that’s the cruelest act I can think of a man committing, and to do it while presenting himself as a “Pastor”?  God have mercy!

False teacher much?

So, the takeaway here is this:  Get the In-N-Out right, your only hope is OUT, through the external/alien righteousness of Jesus Christ through faith in Him for the forgiveness of sins.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Current Events
KEYWORDS: heresy; osteen; pastors; ybpdln
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1 posted on 07/22/2013 6:38:29 AM PDT by Gamecock
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You don’t need to get up on sunday Morning to hear this. Plenty of motiviational speakers out there that teach this and do it better. Then you can use Sundays to sleep in or play golf.


2 posted on 07/22/2013 6:40:24 AM PDT by Gamecock (Member: NAACAC)
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To: Gamecock

“Inside of you is hunger, outside of you are tasty burgers for your enjoyment.”

Joel Osteen, or...Homer Simpson?

I enjoy Joel. Thanks! :)


3 posted on 07/22/2013 6:41:48 AM PDT by Diana in Wisconsin (I don't have 'Hobbies.' I'm developing a robust Post-Apocalyptic skill set...)
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No, really, I do. I take him for what he’s worth - a motivational speaker. No more, no less.


4 posted on 07/22/2013 6:44:08 AM PDT by Diana in Wisconsin (I don't have 'Hobbies.' I'm developing a robust Post-Apocalyptic skill set...)
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To: Diana in Wisconsin
Joel Osteen is nothing more than a motivational speaker. And he's very successful at it.

Far too many so-called Christian pastors don't even rise to Joel's level. They don't even come close.

5 posted on 07/22/2013 6:51:49 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: Diana in Wisconsin

The Big Lebowski turned me on to this particular spiritual experience.


6 posted on 07/22/2013 6:56:04 AM PDT by dagogo redux (A whiff of primitive spirits in the air, harbingers of an impending descent into the feral.)
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To: Gamecock

Your article captures the bankruptcy of most of today’s assemblies. They hunger for ear-tickling motivational speeches trying to make this experience better, more enjoyable. Even believers are tempted to view the guaranteed suffering as something abberant and follow these heretics.

But, all of this error is itself managed by God as a deluding influence pouring over the world. Whether we are in the final chapter is yet to be seen. The Gospel, however, is diminishing in both presentation and influence among the population. Thanks for the post.


7 posted on 07/22/2013 7:07:44 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Gamecock

I’m not so sure Osteen isn’t being taken out of context but again I am saying this on the fly, I don’t have hours to spend here right now. If Osteen’s vision is God, then yes he will rise to a God given level of blessings. If you go to the Ritz Carlton you will get better food than if you go to the In-N-Out burger joint. Anyhow, yes one can artificially limit one’s gospel vision. Fortunately the gospel can teach you how you’ve been doing that and how to stop it (or rather how to start God’s love in the place of the limitation).


8 posted on 07/22/2013 7:19:19 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Whatever promise that God has made, in Jesus it is yes. See my page.)
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To: Dutchboy88; CynicalBear

The Pentecostal movement is especially vulnerable to this kind of teaching. They swallow stuff like this not only from Osteen, but Hinn, Popoff, Copeland, etc.

I have been in a meeting where it has broken out in *holy laughter* and it was a result of a rather well known *worship leader* who was great with the theatrics and working the crowd. If you could sit back and watch it objectively without getting caught up in it, you could see so clearly what was happening.

I have an acquaintance who I do believe is sincere in her profession of faith in Christ, but went to one of these meetings and got *filled with the Spirit* and is still justifying blatant, unrepentant sin in her life. There are other things in her life which cause me to wonder if she’s merely been deceived and is not really saved.


9 posted on 07/22/2013 7:24:20 AM PDT by metmom (rFor freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Gamecock

What’s with the slam on In-n-Out?

A Double-Double is a balanced meal, similar to the turkey subs that Jared (Subway) has lived on. Especially if you withhold the cheese. The fries, sodas and shakes are where the damage is done.


10 posted on 07/22/2013 7:27:43 AM PDT by cicero2k
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To: Gamecock
Inside of you is hunger, outside of you are tasty burgers for your enjoyment. You go there, get one, and satisfy your hunger. There are no burgers inside of me, so I go out, where there are burgers. Simple. Not exactly deep theology here.. right? Can you imagine the absurdity and utter confusion of getting that basic premise wrong?

Would it be absurd? Would it be mocked? You would think so, but I recently saw this obvious error applauded and treated as if it was the deepest, most philosophical, life-changing truth imaginable by no lesser names than media mogul Oprah Winfrey and “christian” Pastor Joel Osteen.

You forgot to post the chart:


Joel Osteen Heresy Gauge

11 posted on 07/22/2013 7:29:01 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: Vigilanteman
Far too many so-called Christian pastors don't even rise to Joel's level. They don't even come close.

I am thankful for that. One Osteen spouting heresy is enough!

12 posted on 07/22/2013 7:50:49 AM PDT by Gamecock (Member: NAACAC)
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To: Gamecock
Osteen's knowledge of The Bible and Scripture is very, very thin.
That's the best complement to him I can come up with.
13 posted on 07/22/2013 7:59:44 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: DocRock; del4hope; Alex Murphy; Gamecock; Dr. Eckleburg; jude24; Ottofire; fishtank; ...
So the heretic has partnered with the pagan.

2 Timothy 3:2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

____________________________________________________________

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.

____________________________________________________________

YBPDLNPL Ping

The YBPDLNPL is generally published infrequently, but based on the exploits of the megachurch pastors posts can spike for a period of time. If you would like on or off of this list please FReepmail me.


14 posted on 07/22/2013 8:01:42 AM PDT by Gamecock (Member: NAACAC)
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To: Gamecock
You don’t need to get up on sunday Morning to hear this. Plenty of motiviational speakers out there that teach this and do it better.

I've run into the "outer world follows inner thought" teaching in the strangest places. Even among otherwise level headed folks.

Charles Heller, of Liberty Watch Radio (recommended) in Tucson, who's normally a pretty high quality listen once had someone pushing a purely secular version of this for a whole hour, and he was lapping it up.

15 posted on 07/22/2013 8:23:05 AM PDT by Lee N. Field ("You keep using that verse, but I do not think it means what you think it means.")
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To: Vigilanteman
Far too many so-called Christian pastors don't even rise to Joel's level. They don't even come close.

That's OK. They don't have to. They just have to preach the truth.

16 posted on 07/22/2013 8:23:56 AM PDT by Lee N. Field ("You keep using that verse, but I do not think it means what you think it means.")
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To: Gamecock

That Olsteen would participate at all in one of these Oprah “things” speaks volumes to me. . .and it’s not good.


17 posted on 07/22/2013 8:42:49 AM PDT by MEGoody (You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: MEGoody

Watch the linked videos. They are horrible.


18 posted on 07/22/2013 9:00:44 AM PDT by Gamecock (Member: NAACAC)
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To: Gamecock

YBPDLNPL = ?????


19 posted on 07/22/2013 9:13:05 AM PDT by metmom (rFor freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

Your Best Purpose Driven Life Now Ping List.


20 posted on 07/22/2013 9:16:47 AM PDT by Gamecock (Member: NAACAC)
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To: Gamecock

What is it? Just to alert of the doings of the false teachers?


21 posted on 07/22/2013 9:17:58 AM PDT by metmom (rFor freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Lee N. Field
That's OK. They don't have to. They just have to preach the truth.

I totally agree. There are just far too few who do.

God bless those few and grow their numbers!

22 posted on 07/22/2013 9:20:50 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: Gamecock

Unfortunately, JO is far from alone. He is also far from the worst. He also mixes some very nice motivational talk in with his heresies. Very effectively, I might add.


23 posted on 07/22/2013 9:23:07 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: metmom
What is it? Just to alert of the doings of the false teachers?

Follows the mischief ongoings of the megachurch pastors.

24 posted on 07/22/2013 9:45:24 AM PDT by Gamecock (Member: NAACAC)
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To: dagogo redux

25 posted on 07/22/2013 9:53:01 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: metmom
Founded in 2006 with the below linked thread, the YBPDLN Ping List has grown to several members. Often times months go by with no ping, buth then something, like Victoria Osteen being arrested, will occur and there will be a flurry of pings as more information becomes known.

Rick Warren called 'enabler and defender' of evil

Example of a Vicky Osteen thread: Osteen's Wife on Trial for Temper Tantrum

26 posted on 07/22/2013 10:01:39 AM PDT by Gamecock (Member: NAACAC)
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To: metmom
"I have an acquaintance who I do believe is sincere in her profession of faith in Christ, but went to one of these meetings and got *filled with the Spirit* and is still justifying blatant, unrepentant sin in her life. There are other things in her life which cause me to wonder if she’s merely been deceived and is not really saved."

I have had the same situatio with friends of mine. They claim these odd, un-biblical experiences and attribute them to the Holy Spirit. I believe, like you, that there is a strong possibility that in spite of "professions of faith", "altar calls", even "re-commitments to Christ", these folks may not have been adopted by God. Read that, He never knew them. Sounds harsh, and I don't pretend to be able to discern their state. Just saying...

27 posted on 07/22/2013 10:57:02 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: HiTech RedNeck

By the way I do not mean to tout a “prosperity gospel” at least not in the way that has been made notorious by televangelists. God will make a believer prosperous spiritually if the believer asks for that, because the believer is asking according to God’s will. That MIGHT or MIGHT NOT entail certain quantities of earthly mammon. If one’s heart is to use whatever mammon one has to “make friends so that they may greet you in the heavenly places”... then if God sees that you will follow through, God might make you “stinking rich.” But the riches must never, ever be used as idols because God can humble that kind of pride right quick.


28 posted on 07/22/2013 11:18:34 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Whatever promise that God has made, in Jesus it is yes. See my page.)
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To: Dutchboy88

Sometimes what’s blatant is a matter of perspective. We know, to our humility if we are cognizant, that we won’t be rid of the presence of all our sin — the repentance won’t be finished — until we get to glory with Jesus.

Brethren may see the sin clearly but also be unable to muster the grace to set the erring person right in love. Such brethren should also try being a bit more humble to see if that will gain them better effectiveness. A jillion published articles about fits of anger might not do as much good as one loving brother or sister coming in private.


29 posted on 07/22/2013 11:29:06 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (Whatever promise that God has made, in Jesus it is yes. See my page.)
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To: SoothingDave

It’s time for lunch!


30 posted on 07/22/2013 11:41:59 AM PDT by dagogo redux (A whiff of primitive spirits in the air, harbingers of an impending descent into the feral.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

I have absolutely no idea what you are getting at.


31 posted on 07/22/2013 12:21:35 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88

I agree. That’s the problem with trying to discern someone’s salvation based on outward *signs*.

The whole tongues thing is a perfect example. I’ve attended Pentecostal churches and have heard from the pulpit that tongues is a sign for believers that they heave been filled with the Holy Spirit, (baptism with evidence...) and yet Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 14 that tongues is a sign for unbelievers, not believers.

I have had my own experience which I am sure was the filling of thee Holy Spirit (I can FReepmail details if you have the time) and all I can say that if someone needs to have evidence that what they experienced was from God, nothing happened. You cannot be touched by God like that and NOT know it. I certainly don’t need a *sign* to validate it.


32 posted on 07/22/2013 12:39:45 PM PDT by metmom (rFor freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: HiTech RedNeck
Brethren may see the sin clearly but also be unable to muster the grace to set the erring person right in love. Such brethren should also try being a bit more humble to see if that will gain them better effectiveness.

Part of the problem might not be pride as much as fear of rejection, fear of the reaction on the part of the person being confronted.

I know that for me that has beena factor in the past but by God's grace, I am learning to overcome that.

33 posted on 07/22/2013 12:42:29 PM PDT by metmom (rFor freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
The "tongues" matter you mention represents a world view built upon a misunderstanding of Scripture. The tongues Paul speaks of (I Cor.) originated in Acts 2 and was simply a foreign language unknown to the speaker. The "miracle" was that remarks made were in shockingly perfect dialects known only to those from the more than 16 foreign areas mentioned by Luke. That is why a translator is necessary and why it is for unbelievers. Paul is simply exagerating when he says, "If I could speak in a tongue of angels..."

And, incidentally, I have heard of an example of tongues in the biblical manner described. A young girl in a gathering stood and spoke up in what most thought was babbling. She was asked to sit down. But, an older man stood with tears running down his face and begged them to allow her to continue. He said she was speaking to him in a Russian dialect known only in the small village he was from. He was visiting some friends in the US and she was telling him the Gospel of Jesus Christ in his native tongue. That afternoon a soul was adopted by God.

But, the glossalalia induced by repetitious chanting while praying, claiming to be driven by the Holy Spirit is one more of those practices which makes one question whether these really are believers or if they are just "experience junkies". Ask yourself if you ever saw Jesus get high this way or encourage others to do so. Their "tongues" is a manufactured error borne of bad theology and poor hermeneutics.

Your remarks are dead-on. You don't need a sign if you understand grace.

34 posted on 07/22/2013 3:43:07 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Alex Murphy

I like that. This is one we can agree on.


35 posted on 07/22/2013 4:35:42 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Dutchboy88

“experience junkies”

I need to remember that for future use.


36 posted on 07/22/2013 6:57:39 PM PDT by metmom (rFor freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Dutchboy88

**Paul is simply exagerating when he says, “If I could speak in a tongue of angels...”**

If I may, here’s what may be your personal interpretation of 1Cor. 13:1:

“Though I speak with the tongues of men, OR IF I COULD SPEAK IN THE TONGUES of angels....”.

I prefer the actual wording in the KJV: “Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels...”.

No comma after ‘men’.

Here’s Paul showing his approval of unknown tongues from God; given for the individual’s edification. “He that speaketh in an UNKNOWN”(I repeat, UNKNOWN) tongue speaketh NOT”(I repeat, NOT)”unto men, BUT unto GOD: for NO man understandeth him: HOWBEIT in the SPIRIT he SPEAKETH MYSTERIES.” 1Cor. 14:2

**And, incidentally, I have heard of an example of tongues in the biblical manner described.**

Glad you agree with that experience!

**But, the glossalalia induced by repetitious chanting while praying, claiming to be driven by the Holy Spirit is one more of those practices which makes one question whether these really are believers or if they are just “experience junkies”.**

The fakers are ‘tares’ (not that those souls can’t be corrected and converted). And just like ‘tares’, can be any number of weeds in the wheat field. Each species having it’s own identity, but managing to be amongst the wheat. Some are dreadfully obvious, like the ‘ragweed’ (big show, can’t miss them); some, not quite so obvious, like ‘barnyard grass’ and ‘foxtail’ (unpretentious, yet not belonging there). God sez he’ll sort them all out at harvest.


37 posted on 07/22/2013 7:58:03 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: Zuriel

You may wish to take a course in Greek and hermeneutics.


38 posted on 07/23/2013 7:10:32 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88; metmom

**Your remarks are dead-on. You don’t need a sign if you understand grace.**

It’s life, to reach ‘milestones’, ‘watershed moments’, life changing experiences. People will find something, and stop, find something, and stop....over and over. And maybe at each stop, thinking...”I found what I’ve been looking for, I felt something like never before, and this is it. There’s no more greater experience to be found”. ....Until the hunger for something more takes hold. And the search continues.

A common passage used to refute the teaching of tongues for every newborn: 1Co 12:29-30 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?.

First and foremost:
ANY scriptures taken from the epistles are to be read with this understanding: The epistles were written to the churches; the saints, whether they be pastors, elders, or other born again members. Most of the introductions point this out, with the most common being, “to the saints..”. Those people had already been born again. There are a few passages alluding to that experience, but not mentioned regularly since they had already ‘been there’.

The Lord prophesied of the baptism of the Holy Ghost:

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou HEAREST the SOUND thereof, but canst NOT tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: SO is EVERY ONE that is born of the Spirit.

“He that believeth in me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) John 7:38,39

Detailed accounts of the Spirit poured out:
Acts 2:4 The Jews: “And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”

Acts 8:17 the Samaritans (part Jew, part Gentile): “Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.” A scene apparently so startling that Simon the sorceror (no small time magician) wanted to buy that power, so that he too could to pass on to others the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:44-46 the Gentiles: While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were ASTONISHED.....FOR they HEARD them speak with tongues, and magnify God.”

Acts 19:6: “And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Ghost came upon them, and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.”

A SIGN/EXPERIENCE.....WHAT IS SCRIPTURAL? CONSIDER PETER’S LIFE IN THE GOSPELS:

(written in autobiographical fashion)

“My life was forever changed; it was my new beginning.....”

..when I saw the Lord turn WATER into WINE!

..when I saw the Lord clease the lepers RIGHT before my EYES!

..when the Lord was walking on the water and called me to him..AND..I..WALKED ON WATER!!

..when I saw the Lord call for a dead man to come forth....and the dead man CAME to LIFE!

..when I SAW the Lord TRANSFIGURED on the mount,..HE GLOWED!

..when I saw the events of the crucifixion, and my denials of the Lord, my heart was SO convicted!

..when I saw the resurrected Christ walk right through a WALL, into a room where I was present!

..when I watched him ASCEND up into heaven!

BUT NO!...HERE.....is Peter’s testimony of the BEGINNING of his new life in Christ; his account to the brethern in Jerusalem after the conversion of the household of Cornelius: “..the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us AT THE BEGINNING.” 11:17 (caps to remind that the beginning of the church is that initial outpouring).

As for myself, I had heart tugging experiences that drew me nearer to the Lord ( the loss of my older brother, to a farm accident, when I was 10. Being drawn deeply to repentance different times. Attending a ‘crusade’, and making a confession of faith, etc.). BUT...the biblical conversion was just not taught at my Calvinist assembly, so I didn’t even known what it really was.

Peter put the death, burial, and resurrection in Christ (for the sinner) in one verse: Acts 2:38.


39 posted on 07/23/2013 8:09:59 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....nearly 2,000 years and still working today!)
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To: Zuriel
Here’s Paul showing his approval of unknown tongues from God; given for the individual’s edification.

The gifts are NOT for the edification of the individual. They are for the edification of the church.

Read 1 Corinthians 14 for proper exercising of the gifts.

40 posted on 07/23/2013 8:29:40 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Zuriel; Dutchboy88
People in the church who claim that tongues are a sign of the infilling of the Holy Spirit are wrong.

Tongues are not a sign for believers but for unbelievers.

1 Corinthians 14:22 22 Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers.

Nor do I see a huge rush to interpret as Paul said must happen when tongues is exercised.

Nor do I see people seeking to prophesy.

No, everyone is after the experience of speaking in tongues, even to the point of telling people to makes sounds to loosen up and have the gift come on them.

Experience junkies is it.

41 posted on 07/23/2013 8:37:21 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

I had forgotten about I Corinthians 14:22. I’m trying to teach a young man who obtains much of his theology from Jimmy Swaggart Ministry videos. We’ve made some progress, but this reminder will help.


42 posted on 07/23/2013 8:40:23 PM PDT by AD from SpringBay (http://jonah2eight.blogspot.com/)
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To: AD from SpringBay

Seems that a LOT of people forget about chapter 14.

1 Corinthians 12 is good, too.

Especially verses 7 and 11 and 27 - 31.


43 posted on 07/24/2013 5:31:05 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

The verses in Mark 16:17-18 are what I’ve been focusing on lately. Still waiting for someone to drink that cup of bleach. What’s funny is that I’d been through I Cor. 12-14 with him not too long ago. Some things he heard and some didn’t get through. Problem is, this young man bought the Jimmy Swaggart ‘power’ bible with all kinds of foot notes and misinterpretation.


44 posted on 07/24/2013 7:34:03 AM PDT by AD from SpringBay (http://jonah2eight.blogspot.com/)
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To: AD from SpringBay

It’s funny how many people cherry pick verses out or Mark 16 to support their theology and ignore the rest.

Catholics do it as a proof text that water baptism is necessary for salvation but ignore the rest of the passage.

Pentecostals use it as a proof text for speaking in tongues, casting out demons, and laying hands on others for healing, but don’t practice the snake handling or drinking poison or use it so support water baptism.

People need to show some integrity when using Scripture. Either the whole passage applies or it doesn’t. You can’t pick and choose what you like about what Jesus says and discard the rest.


45 posted on 07/24/2013 7:48:59 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

Amen - a little context goes a long way.


46 posted on 07/24/2013 9:25:35 AM PDT by AD from SpringBay (http://jonah2eight.blogspot.com/)
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To: Vigilanteman

that makes no sense

Christianity is not about motivation.

being a motivational speaker is not benchmark as a pastor

Pastors are light bearers


47 posted on 07/24/2013 9:29:18 AM PDT by wardaddy (the next Dark Ages are coming as Western Civilization crumbles with nary a whimper)
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To: AD from SpringBay

Paul experienced this supernatural protection from a viper when he was shipwrecked on the island of Melita (Acts 28:3-5). However, this is the only recorded example of this in the New Testament. There is no record of the disciples picking up snakes just to prove they were believers. That would be tempting God (Luke 4:9-12).

This, as well as drinking any deadly thing, is a promise that if we pick up snakes accidentally or are forced into that position because of our stand for Christ, we can believe for supernatural protection.

Like taking up serpents, this does not mean that we can tempt God by drinking poison just to see if this promise works.


48 posted on 07/24/2013 12:14:49 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Dutchboy88
Paul is simply exagerating when he says, "If I could speak in a tongue of angels..."

Not so. There are two different kinds of speaking in tongues. 1 Corinthians 13:1 says we can speak with the tongues of man or of angels.

The tongues of men is speaking of known languages such as what took place on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:4-6). This is the gift to supernaturally speak a known language without having been taught it, and it comes for the purpose of witnessing, as on the Day of Pentecost.

There is also a gift of tongues that is speaking in a heavenly language (what 1 Corinthians 13:1 calls the tongues of angels). This is a language that is not known to the speaker (1 Corinthians 14:2 and 14) but allows the believer to communicate directly with the Lord through the Spirit. There is another kind of speaking in tongues that equals prophecy if it is interpreted (1 Corinthians 14:5).

Not every believer will speak in known languages, as on the Day of Pentecost, or prophesy in the assembly through a message in tongues and an interpretation (1 Corinthians 12:30), but every believer who receives the baptism of the Holy Ghost can speak in the tongues that are for the purpose of edification (1 Corinthians 14:4).

"He that speaks in an unknown tongue edifies himself; but he that prophesies edifies the church. I would that you all spoke with tongues but rather that you prophesied: for greater is he that prophesies than he that speaks with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. 6ow, brothers, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?"

It's a bit of self righteousness to say they don't need a sign, it's that GOD GIVES a sign. They don't have to receive what He gives. IT doesn't mean they aren't saved. Speaking in tongues is still a supernatural gift to every believer who will receive it.

49 posted on 07/24/2013 12:52:02 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name
Nearly every claim you make here is based upon the tradition of your group. There is no biblical support for "...two different kinds of speaking in tongues." Your group leaders have manufactured this distinction. When you are able to set out the single thread woven through I Cor., you will understand how far away the Charismatic perspective has wandered. Take a good course in hermeneutics.

And, of course every believer is baptized in the Holy Spirit. It is just the fringe groups of believers who think this is the repetitious chanting they claim.

50 posted on 07/24/2013 1:09:51 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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