Skip to comments.R.C. Sproul: There Is No True Prophecy Today
Posted on 07/22/2013 10:36:50 AM PDT by juliosevero
By coincidence, his personal bad experience aligns itself with a strong theological view in many Calvinist circles: the belief that God does not grant today supernatural gifts as healings, speaking in tongues, prophecies and other miracles. Cessationism. Apparently, all because they had bad experiences.
Revelation 22:17 is clear that Calvin was wrong.
God doesn’t pick and choose who is saved. Jesus even tried to convert the hard hearted Pharisees. Why would he even waste his time?
“For whosoever shall call upon the name of The Lord shall be saved”. Romans 10:13
Jesus, someone mentioned some time ago to me that you will
give no more signs, You said it to the Pharisees; he said this when I
said that this guidance (message) is from You.
Vassula, when I said this to the Pharisees I meant My miracles of
the time I was in flesh and among them; condemning Me now, for it is
to condemn My Heavenly Works, shows how arid and closed their
hearts have become; My signs will never end; My Presence will be felt
in the world and I will continue to show Myself in signs;
believe, believe O men of little faith, do not distort My Word, for
what have you to say about Fatima; are you dreading to believe that I
am the One who gave you this sign? O men of little faith, what would
you not declare rather than accept that Heavens signs are from Me!
love my My Works, accept My Works; believe, believe in Me, I, who am
Infinite Wealth and Mercy; My signs are so that all men see that Love
has not forgotten you; Love has not withdrawn and glories in His
Glory; Love is among you, never leaving you;
~Jesus, May 28, 1987 True Life in God
Just to be clear, that name is YHWH. (yod he waw he)
It is my understanding that it is pronounced “Yahuah”
Agree with almost everything you said there. He didn’t try to save any Pharisees except maybe for Nicodemus types. Others he called a generation of vipers because certain of them knew exactly Who He was. And still fought against him.
But yes, whosoever will. Certain of the Pharisees chose not to exercise their will.
Thanks for reposting this in the Religion Forum. Will you be participating in this thread?
I posted this in the other thread:
There are four ways to tell a true from false prophet:
If the prophet or prophetess (Note the quotes):
1. has prophesies that arent 100 percent accurate 100 percent of the time (or are manipulated to come true) = False.
2. points to any Jesus other than the biblical one = False.
3. uses supernatural or occultist techniques used in his or her prophecy = False.
4. has a rebellious, unrepentant spirit = False.
All FOUR of these tests should be applied, as many false prophets can pass two or three of them. If he or she fails at any one of these, = FALSE.
What if somebody prophesies something and it comes true?
Should you listen to them? Check out what Deuteronomy says in Chapter 13 verse 1:
If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them, you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the LORD your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you.
So the Bible is saying that just because someone prophesies the futureit doesnt mean they are a true prophet. Further, it says God will allow certain prophets to arise who are false who will perform signs and wonders, to test you to find out if you love Him. Then you are to test these prophets by their DOCTRINE! If they are preaching a different Christ or it doesnt matter you are not to listen to them.
The grave error here is that the entire premise of the article is built around the legitimacy (or illegitimacy) of “Calvinism”. Further, Sproul did not say what the author puts in his mouth (cessationism). But, it makes for good controversy...just no light.
This article wanders all over the farm, but interesting. Regarding Reagan, my earliest memories from 1959 was my father watching Reagan on TV and lamenting: “Why can’t someone like him be President?” Remember at that point Reagan had not ventured into politics. My Dad was not Pat Boone and he wasn’t claiming to speak prophecy, but he beat Boone to the punch by 10 years!
I am here, but I confess that I do not understand much how this works.
SeekAndFind made IMO an excellent post on the first version of this thread (and again here) regarding the Biblical test of true prophecy. In short, any alleged post-apostolic prophet needs a verifiable 1.000 batting average in regards to predictions AND Christology, or he's a false prophet. Can anyone cough up such an individual to demonstrate why Sproul's experience is wrong?
You've been a member of Free Republic for almost four and a half years. What don't you get?
RE: In short, any alleged post-apostolic prophet needs a verifiable 1.000 batting average in regards to predictions AND Christology, or he’s a false prophet.
OK, just for argument’s sake, what do we make of the NON-FULFILLMENT of Jonah’s prophecy to the Ninevites?
This is what he said : “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned.” (Jonah 3:4).
That’s it. NO CONDITIONS, NO IFs or BUTs. Not even an exhortation to repent.
We have been discussing this very topic in our Sunday School class on theology. We delved into Dr. Wayne Grudem’s conjecture that N.T. prophecy is different from O.T. prophecy. It exists, but it must be tested. This is because, in his view, it can be flawed.
He contends that most evangelical congregants are not strict cessationists with regards to miraculous gifts; e.g., tongues, prophecy, and healing. Instead he categorizes them as “Open but cautious”.
Personally, I'd say that the sweeping nation-wide changes in Ninevah, from the greatest to the least (Jonah 3:5-10) constitute a definitive moral overturning.
And yet there is so much false prophecy...
Yes, but what kind of prophet did that make Jonah?
An accurate one, IMO. Are you interpreting “overthrown” to mean a solely political / physical change, and not an ethical one?
RE: An accurate one,
I’d say an inaccurate one.
He only told them part of the whole prophecy.
He gave them the doom part but not the salvation part.
Christian Mysticism Within Evangelicalism
Cessationism, Revelation & Prophecy
His explanation seems to comport with classical Christian belief.
I can say that after reading some accounts of the church growing in places like China and Africa, there seem to be stories akin to the first chapters of the book of Acts; people speaking in tongues, miraculous healings, etc.....I think these accounts, if accurate, reflect God working in a geographic place that has been "dormant" for centuries--as He did in the early days of the church when The Way was just beginning.
Ive had a few prophetic dreams in my life. You know them when you have them. But they weren’t for the world, big historical events. Instead they were at important turning points in my life, dealing with relationships with other people, or the salvation of one I really cared about.
Lately, it’s sort of just reading the Bible and turning on the tv.
**He didnt try to save any Pharisees except maybe for Nicodemus types.**
I don’t think that verse proves what you think it proves.
God showed his grace to Ninevah, just like he showed it to our parents in the garden.
However, the nice thing about RC Sproul is that he often admits he is not right about everything and is open to having his mind changed by God.
EX: I remember reading that he once did not believe in a literal 7 day creation but he said his mind is now changing on that.
**Revelation 22:17 is clear that Calvin was wrong.**
Those who have hearts of stone don’t know they are thirsty. Why would they want to get a drink?
‘Tis only after they have been regenerated do they think “Wow! Water of life?!? Give me the x-tra large one please!”
I find this thread interesting. I think prophecy today is mostly about our gracious Lord, finding people who have presented their themselves to God, and who, by reason of use have exercised their skills in sensing the leadings of God, via scripture and intense, yielded prayer — and have obtained insights into scripture. These can be kept and pondered in the heart, like Mary did, or reserved for future reference in one’s own life, or in the life of one’s family, or congregation.
God comes to us from His unique dimension with His higher ways and thoughts. These are very beneficial, as they give to us the special boldness, access and confidence we need in order to speak and act with the assurance of the existence of those higher thoughts and ways.
The ink and paper of scripture constitute one aspect of God’s gift to us; but it is the Spirit disclosing to us what the words mean, specifically, for us, in our present weaknesses and dilemmas, that really open the New Testament doors into what is prophetic and what isn’t.
As to Jonah, I think God included that historical account mainly to show us what kind of foul ball, or incomplete pass, a prophet can become when his heart is not in the right place, or who has ulterior motives and is not fully yielded. The same can be said of Samson or King Saul. They are examples of how NOT to use the gifts and callings of the Lord. Lastly, Jonah is a lot like the elder son in the illustrative account Jesus told on the Prodigal Son. There is yet another example of missing God’s best by missing the point.
With all due respect, that is not the point. If a prophet arose with 1.000 average, even Sproul would say, "This is a prophet." To date, I believe Sproul would currently say, no one has made the cut. I fully agree. But, tomorrow? Are we prepared to say, "God could not send a prophet!"
Notice, the great majority of this article was primarily about the legitimacy of prophecy being just as reasonable as the legitimacy of Calvinism. But, Calvinism has such a wide spectrum of adherents (Sam Storms charismatic, RC Sprould non-charismatic) that we cannot draw any conclusions about prophecy based on various Calvinists. Frankly, a lot of folks calling themselves Calvinists have no idea what that means.
RE: As to Jonah, I think God included that historical account mainly to show us what kind of foul ball, or incomplete pass, a prophet can become when his heart is not in the right place, or who has ulterior motives and is not fully yielded. The same can be said of Samson or King Saul. They are examples of how NOT to use the gifts and callings of the Lord. Lastly, Jonah is a lot like the elder son in the illustrative account Jesus told on the Prodigal Son. There is yet another example of missing Gods best by missing the point.
NOTE TO SELF: This is a good thing to include for the kids in my next Sunday School class...
In my class on spiritual gifts I have a bullet item to make the point: “Do not confuse the conferring of spiritual gifts with maturity”.
This applies to ourselves as well as gifts seen in others. My example? Sampson
I am touched by that. Keep up the good fight.
This is a view held by "concentric cessationists".
Here are good links to both charismatic and cessationist viewpoints and many flavors of each:
Just because there is much so called prophecy out there that doesn’t come to pass, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t or can’t happen.
The bigger problem is people looking for sensationalism, either to have *words* spoken over them or more prideful, seeking the gift so they can speak over others.
My take on the matter is to live a life so that should God decide to use me to give a word to someone, He can use me to be that conduit. And that means dying to self, which I don’t see happening in all the people who chase after the gifts or manifestations.
Yes, that’s what I meant by ‘Nicodemus types’. Those who actually wanted to hear the Truth of the Gospel.
Obviously some of them might have come (others we don’t know about). But He put sweeping terms over them.
But I *was* only thinking of the Gospels, trying to pull out who else besides Nicodemus. Thanks for taking me to the Epistles and reminding me that Paul was a Pharisee of the Pharisees.
Funny that it took Damascus Road to convert Paul but Nicodemus seemed to come with peaked interest.
Your post was funny, but it didnt counter Revelation 22:17 and it doesn’t counter Mark 8:34 or Romans 10:13.
God gave us all free will. Those who choose to be saved have made a choice, just as those who choose not.
If God had already chosen who is saved and who is not, there would’ve been absolutely NO reason for Christ to die on the cross.
There’s many others. Romans 10:13 , Mark 8:34 .
Those are just a few off the top of my head.
Jonah spoke the Words of the Lord, as he was told, I’d say.
When Nineveh repented, God gave them a 70-year break (subsequentily fulfilled in Nahum if memory serves).
I agree it wasn’t presented as a conditional prophecy, and Jonah was certainly disappointed that he didn’t get to see it happen, for the Ninevites had performed much evil.
Amazing, 38 posts about Sproul and prophecy, and not a word said about him being a Preterist. Sproul believes all prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD. Makes no difference, whether Bible prophecy or from individuals who claim the spiritual gift of prophecy, its all false to him.
Sure it does.
God gave us all free will. Those who choose to be saved have made a choice, just as those who choose not.
We will always choose death. It is not until we are given a heart of flesh that we can respond in flesh. (BTW, free will is mentioned one time in Scripture, and not in the context of salvation.)
If God had already chosen who is saved and who is not, there wouldve been absolutely NO reason for Christ to die on the cross.
Actually, if we had free will we would not need the Cross. I would be able to choose not to sin, and them have eternal life on my own account, not that of Jesus.
“I see Calvinist churches ordaining gays, supporting abortion and boycotts against Israel, especially in Europe and America. Should I conclude that Calvinist churches are not genuine Christian churches?”
Not the Calvinist church I’m a member of-Presbyterian Church in America(PCA). I don’t think you’d see such behavior in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church(OPC), Evangelical Presbyterian Church(EPC) the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church(ARP) or the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America(RPCNA) either.
Jesus said, “you did not choose me, I chose you” John 15
EVERY major family of Churches has apostates “ordaining gays, supporting abortion and boycotts against Israel, especially in Europe and America.” Including charismatics...
In fact, the ordination of homosexuals in (liberal/apostate) denominations is often done (falsely) invoking (gag!) a “new move of the Holy Spirit,” so its very unfair to single out Calvinists. Mainline Presbyterianism rejected actual Calvinism a couple generations ago anyway...., and they actively persecute those congregations and pastors who do not go along with their sexually perverted apostasy....
The author also very oddly refers to “LUCK” several times...as if there’s a random, outside of God, force that affects people.
There are very good reasons why non-charismatic Christians are suspicious of charismatic Christians, as they often do seem superstitious and just (frankly) flakey.
In John 15, Christ is speaking to the disciples before sending them out. He was not speaking to all believers.
You misinterpreted Acts 13:48. Christians, once saved, are ordained to good works and to witness and to eternal life.
God knows who will be saved, but he does not choose. His eternal purpose is to have a people that are faithful without being chosen. He already has the angels that were created with the full awareness of His existence. If that were all He wanted, there would be no reason for human creation.
“Actually, if we had free will we would not need the Cross. I would be able to choose not to sin, and them have eternal life on my own account, not that of Jesus.”
The ability to sin is proof of free will. You already have the free will to choose to sin or not to sin and also to choose to believe in Christ or not. But living a sinless life is impossible. If there was no free will, as you claim, humans would essentially be robots.
In fact, you’re claiming that we don’t have free will proves that we do.
***The ability to sin is proof of free will. ...But living a sinless life is impossible.***
Make self-refuting arguments much?
Frankly, what Sproul means by “true prophecy” has never been in great supply. After all, the Bible isn’t really that big a book, and the true prophets are therein.
However, I don’t believe in cessationism either. I think God will do what God wants to do.
“1 Samuel 19: 19 Word came to Saul: “David is in Naioth at Ramah”; 20 so he sent men to capture him. But when they saw a group of prophets prophesying, with Samuel standing there as their leader, the Spirit of God came upon Saul’s men and they also prophesied. 21 Saul was told about it, and he sent more men, and they prophesied too. Saul sent men a third time, and they also prophesied. 22 Finally, he himself left for Ramah and went to the great cistern at Secu. And he asked, “Where are Samuel and David?” “Over in Naioth at Ramah,” they said. 23 So Saul went to Naioth at Ramah. But the Spirit of God came even upon him, and he walked along prophesying until he came to Naioth. 24 He stripped off his robes and also prophesied in Samuel’s presence. He lay that way all that day and night. This is why people say, “Is Saul also among the prophets?”