Skip to comments.Mormon apologetics group brings conference to Provo [Mormonism being 'disenchanted' on the 'net]
Posted on 08/01/2013 6:55:36 AM PDT by Colofornian
The Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research (FAIR) is bringing its annual FAIR Mormon Conference to Provo on Thursday and Friday.
The organization, whose mission is to discuss and defend criticisms against The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, used to hold its annual conference in Sandy, but chose the Utah Valley Convention Center this year because of a growing audience. FAIR has seen increased interest recently, both within the church and from outsiders, as the Internet increases access to -- and questions about -- the entirety of church history.
Daniel Peterson, an Arabic professor at Brigham Young University and a noted Mormon apologist, said this increased access has caused church members to stumble upon anti-Mormon material more than ever would otherwise. These increasingly frequent run-ins, he said, are changing church members' attitudes toward criticisms of its history and doctrine.
"It's going to force us to up our game, not only in apologetics, but in the church generally, to make sure that members understand things better than they have in the past," Peterson said.
This cultural shift within the church, and perhaps the necessity for such a shift, was highlighted in a New York Times front-page story from July 21. The article, titled "Some Mormons Search the Web and Find Doubt," profiled Swedish Mormon Hans Mattsson, an emeritus Area Authority who has gone public about his doubts, and his criticism of how prominent church leaders deal with such criticisms.
"I felt like I had an earthquake under my feet," Mattsson shared in the article. "Everything I'd been taught, everything I'd been proud to preach about and witness about just crumbled under my feet. It was such a terrible psychological and nearly physical disturbance."
Discussing this article, FAIR president Scott Gordon said Mattsson's case represents a fundamental problem in what Mormons often expect from Sunday services and church leadership.
"They think that Sunday school is a history class, and it's not," Gordon explained.
"Sunday school is a place where the church uses stories and history to teach gospel principles. So you can sit through 20 or 30 years of Sunday school and never hear all of church history, because that's not the point of it."
This responsibility for this education, he said, rests not on church leaders, but on the members themselves. The purpose of FAIR and its conferences is to provide this education in a believing, faithful and unafraid spirit, he said.
"We're not here to stir the pot; we're here to try to heal wounds in a safe environment," he said. "People come to us to try to find out what the true scoop is."
In line with this aim, this year's FAIR conference will focus on the topic of doubt itself. Michael R. Ash is the author of "Shaken Faith Syndrome," a book that explores controversial Mormon topics and how members struggle to reconcile those topics with their faith. Ash will discuss this subject at this year's FAIR conference.
Ash said attending the FAIR conference should be a must for members wishing to better understand the church in all its complexities. Having participated in a handful of past FAIR conferences, Ash said the gatherings have helped him appreciate the great things the church has accomplished -- and ultimately, the truthfulness of the its teachings -- even with the weaknesses and shortcomings of its members.
"It's a matter of having answers, so that we can see that there is not a silver bullet, there's not a nail in the coffin, that proves the church is false," he said.
FAIR's conference starts today...
As indicated, what do you think is THE most common topic presentation at this conference?
Allow me to provide some presentation titles:
Lead-off A.M. talk: Shaken Faith Syndrome, Part Deux
Mid-afternoon: Why Mormonism Matters: Pastoral Apologetics and the LDS Doubter
Second day (A.M.): Disenchanted Mormonism
Second day, Mid-afternoon: The Loss and Rekindling of Faith
THIS is the ONLY topic that gets attention EVERY morning and afternoon of the Mormon apologists' conference!
Here's the NY Times article: Some Mormons Search the Web and Find Doubt
Here's the FR discussion from someone posting that article: Some Mormons Search the Web and Find Doubt [See post #50 for two additional FR links which previously discussed the apostasy going on among Mormons in Sweden...prior to the Times highlighting it]
Anybody gonna say anything about Napoleon Bonaparte and the Rosetta Stone??
Interesting! Mormonism may be the first case in history where the internet exposed a false prophet and cult leadership(past, present and future) who over the last 170 years or so have exploited millions for fun and “PROFIT!”
“there’s not a nail in the coffin, that proves the church is false,” he said.”
Sure it’s false.
It is unBiblical, it perverts the nature of God, it offers “another Gospel” as a substitute for His Gospel of grace, it teaches polytheism, it’s founder was a scammer and Horndog,and its foundation is feelings.
In short, there isn’t a single thing it has in common with Christianity except the name of Christ... And when they use it, the mean an entirely different person than the Jesus Christ revealed in the Bible.
Bigotry, lies, and five more minutes of HATE. Isn’t God proud of you?
Danial Peterson is a sloppy researcher at best, his claim on horses in the new world having no evidence and equivalencing it with the lack of evidence of Hun horses shows that there COULD have been horses in the new world is a good example.
(took almost 2 min on web to find proof of Hun Horses)
Also, Pew Forum just came out with a study among Mormons...it says the biggest reason why convert Mormons join, which are over a quarter of all Mormons, is "beliefs."
(So much for those who portend that "theology" doesn't matter)
Per the survey results from over 3,000 Mormons seriously reviewing their faith --
--see UNDERSTANDING MORMON DISBELIEF: Why do some Mormons lose their testimony, and what happens to them when they do? for 26-page results!
-- Here are the top five "General Factors Contributing to Disbelief"...[this is found on page 8 chart of results]:
1. I ceased to believe in the church's doctrine/theology (74%)
2. I studied church history and lost my belief (70%)
3. I lost faith in Joseph Smith (70%) [my note: A very bad place to place & transfer faith toward to begin with!]
4. I lost faith in the Book of Mormon (65%)
5. I lost confidence in the general authorities (50%)
Two other factors within the Top 10 included:
* "I did not feel spiritually edified at church" (47%)
* and "Church's stance on race issues (blacks, native Americans, etc.)" (43%).
In contrast to the reasons Mormons & Mormon leaders often pin upon such disbelievers, only 4% said it was because they were offended by someone in the church and 4% also pinpointed "I wanted to engage in behaviors viewed as sinful by the church" [the very bottom reasons listed on the chart].
12% said they "received a spiritual witness to leave the church and go elsewhere"...Over 1/4 said they lost their faith in God/Jesus.
FR postings on this topic from earlier this year:
* Mormon Reformation [Posting of 95 Theses on Mormon Church Doors]
* How to Stay in the LDS Church After a Major Trial of Faith [Internal Mormon critic]
* 400: Top 5 Myths and Truths about Why Committed Mormons Leave the Church [Lds FAIR group critiqued]
* Sunstone 2012 Recap [Focus on internal Lds critic Dehlin's presentation on why some Mormons stay]
* Why People Leave the LDS Church, and what family/friends/community can do about it
* Viewpoint: 'Hold on to what you believe' [Lds: 'Does it feel...everyone you know is falling away?']
Postings previous to that on this topic:
* When He Stopped Believing [Mormon exodus underway] [Note: This was in the official Lds church publication, Ensign]
* But Im a good Mormon wife: Sean and I had the perfect life. Then his faith started to crumble...
* Different takes on Mormon faith from Republican rivals [Mormon exodus underway]
* 'Spiritual Olympics' Series (S.O.S.): A Glimpse of Mormonism Around the Globe [Vanity]
Earlier 2012 postings:
*Notes: Mormonism and the Internet [Duplicity/mixed messages cited; baptism-of-dead issue lingers]
* Survey on Mormon Disbelievers to be Released at UVU Forum [74% point to theological concerns]
* Why Mormons flee their church
* Number of faithful Mormons rapidly declining
* Mormons opening up in an Internet world [& Losing members accordingly]
* Special report -Mormonism besieged by the modern age [Lds church is hemorrhaging in member losses]
* See also 2010 posting: Why Mormons Leave
|Thesis #||Links||MRM.tv; John Ankerberg links; Mormonisminvestigated (UK) youtube linkage, etc.|
|1. Smith's peepstone usage in Book of Mormon 'translation'||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #15 from this article) + Translation of the Book of Mormon + Book of Mormon translation + A Seer Stone and a Hat - "Translating" the Book of Mormon||Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #3)|
|2. The Missing Mormon archaeology of Book of Mormon civilizations||The Scientific Search for Nephite Remains (Mormon Archaeology )|
|3. Book of Mormon history -- anachonisms||Anachronisms||Where did the Book of Mormon come from? + Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #4 & #5))#|
|4. DNA as relating to undergirding Book of Mormon history||Lamanite DNA (scroll down) + DNA Science Challenges LDS History||DNA vs. the Book of Mormon|
|5. Note how Book of Mormon names matches up, with slight revisions, with local names where Joseph Smith resided||In Search of Book of Mormon Geography + Book of Mormon Geography: Which Theory do you Believe?|
|6. Early Mormon theology and latter-day fallout from disbelieving Mormon theology/doctrine||Resources on Lds theology + "This Is My Doctrine": The Development of Mormon Theology + The Evolution of Mormon Theology + Joseph Smiths Modalism: Sabellian Sequentialism or Swedenborgian Expansionism?|
|7 to 11. Losing faith in Book of Mormon as historical account||The Book of Mormon + Book of Mormon Difficulties||John Ankerberg Show "Book of Mormon is not qualified" + Top 10 Mormon Problems|
|10. First Nephi has LOTS of issues||The Book of Mormon and the King James Version (KJV Translation errors show up in the Book of Mormon)|
|12 to 14. Book of Abraham really an Egyptian funeral document?||The Book of Abraham + The Book of Abraham + Book of Abraham + Death Blow to Mormonism The Book of Abraham is a Fake? + The Book of Abraham + Min is Not God!||The Lost Book of Abraham + Top 10 Mormon Problems|
|15. Fake Kinderhook Plates which fooled Joseph Smith||The Kinderhook Plates||Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #7)|
|17. Joseph Smith marries 14-year-old...and dozens of wives||Joseph Smith's 14 year old bride Helen Mar Kimball 100|
|18. Polyandry: Joseph Smith married the wives of 11 fellow Mormons||Joseph Smith Married Other Men's Wives: Would you share your spouse with the Prophet?|
|18 thru 25. Polygamy--including post-manifesto polygamy/Polyandry -- "polyandry" including Joseph Smith being married to 11 women already married -- who remained married||Polygamy [Everything you might want to possibly know about historical Mormon polygamy] + LDS Leaders Still Believe There Will be Polygamy in Heaven||The 34 wives of Joseph Smith (and their 11 husbands) + Lifting the Veil of Polygamy + Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #8)|
|20. Joseph Smith secret 'marriage' to teen Fanny Alger minus authority to do so||Alger History and Ancestry: Fanny W. Alger 1817-1879 + Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (See #17, 18 from this article)|
|21. LDS Leaders' Lies to Cover-Up Historical Polygamy||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #56 thru #59, #64, #71, #72, #76 thru #113, #132 from this article) + LDS Leaders, Their Ethics and Lying for the Lord|
|22. Joseph Smith lied to his original wife||See # 22, 24, 29, 30, 39, 40 etc. from this list: Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read]|
|23. Polygamy: How it went from 'everlasting' to 'embarrassing'||Great Moments in Mormon History|
|24. Post-manifesto Mormon polygamy||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #56 through #59, #76 thru #113, and #125 from this article) + see Solemn Covenant: THE MORMON POLYGAMOUS PASSAGE -- see appendix list of about 260 plural marriages solemnized between 1890-1910|
|25. Lds 'scriptures' inconsistent with each other||The Book of Mormon vs Mormonism|
|28. Joseph Smith, post 'first vision,' tries to join Methodist church||Joseph Smith Tries to Join the Methodists|
|29. Multiple/conflicting versions of Joseph Smith's 'First Visions'||Joseph Smith's First Vision: Examining the evidence related to Joseph Smiths claim to have seen the Father and the Son + The First Vision + First Vision plagiarized||Heart of the Matter: First Vision II|
|30. Why lengthy lag time of announcing 'First Vision'? (Authenticity or credibility of 'priesthood restoration'/Is Lds church 'One True Church?')||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #1 from this article) + Priesthood Restoration + The Great Apostasy + Did Brigham Young teach that Christians are ignorant people?||Those Abominable Creeds +|
|31. Smith's history of treasure-digging||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #11 from this article) + Joseph Smith and Money-Digging + See post #15|
|32. Joseph Smith repeatedly claimed angel 'Nephi' -- Not 'Moroni' was 'Angel' that visited him||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #5 from this article)|
|33. Gold plates difficult for Joseph Smith to move||How Heavy Were Those Gold Plates?|
|34. Loss of credibility of so-called 'Book of Mormon witnesses'||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #14 from this article) + The Witnesses + Book of Mormon witnesses||Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #9)|
|36. No early mention of Melchizedek priesthood in Mormon church||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #10 from this article)|
|38. Joseph Smith wouldn't have been able to pass a 'Word of Wisdom' interview||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #6 from this article)|
|43. Masonic influences in temple ceremony||Masonic Influence in the Endowment Ceremony + Masonry/Temple||Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #10) + Sandra Tanner on Mormon Temples|
|45 & 46. Lds temple ceremony changes: Why change something 'direct from Mormon god?'||Temple Ritual Changed...Again + Only The Latest In A Long Line: Temple Ceremony Changes Through History + Why the temple ceremony was changed in 1990 - LDS-Mormon + Why the need for secret death oaths in the LDS Temple Endowment Ceremony? [Secretive Mormon church]||Sandra Tanner on Mormon Temples + Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #10)|
|48. Lds church making Jews into 'Mormons' post-death as their 'saviors?'||Are Mormon people LITERAL saviors of dead Jews, others? (The OTHER World Series: Vanity)|
|50. Joseph Smith shenanigans re: Nauvoo Expositor||Nauvoo City Councils minutes of 1840s provide chaos, contention and lies [Lds' Smith Shenanigans] + Unparralled Outrage at Nauvoo + The Martyrdom: The Prophet Seals His Testimony with His Blood [168th anniversary of Lds censorship]|
|51. Joseph Smith died in a gun battle||PALMER'S ALMANAC: Mormon prophet Joseph Smith met with violent end + The Nauvoo Expositor Affair [Death of Mormon Joseph Smith]|
|53. Mormon cosmology?||Mormon Science and Space Doctrines [Kolobian cosmology]|
|56. Lds prophet prophecies that failed to pass (Losing faith in Joseph Smith)||The Prophecies of Joseph Smith + this earlier 2003 FR posted piece: Failed prophecies of Joseph Smith + Joseph Smith||Jesus Christ/Joseph Smith +The Prophecies of Joseph Smith + First steps into a New Life|
|57. Brigham Young's "Adam" = Mormon god teaching over 20 years||Adam God doctrine||BYU Professor Admits Adam-God Taught By Brigham Young|
|58 to 61. Losing confidence in Lds general authorities||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] + An American Fraud: One Lawyer's Case Against Mormonism + Resources on Lds theology + How Well Do You Know Mormon Church Leaders of the Past? + Can Mormons Trust Their Prophets?|
|62. Lack of Mormon leader discernment when meeting with con artist/ murderer-to-be Mark Hofmann scandal||Film in the works about Hinckley and the Mark Hofmann Episode||Mormon Stories Podcast: The Mormon Forgery Bombings The Complex Legacy of Mark Hofmann 25 Years Later|
|65. Do official Mormon sources exist? What about the Journal of Discourses?||Do Official Mormon Sources Exist?|
|66. Church history cover-up by Lds leaders||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #7, #129)|
|67. Studying Mormon church history leading to disbelief -- therefore church leaders pre-empt scope of much Lds historical scholarship||Historical issues + Interesting Looks at Mormon History||The Early Years of Mormonism|
|69. Lds church placing illegal aliens in leadership positions||2 LDS branch presidents in Utah deported to Guatemala, El Salvador|
|72. Mormon 'testimonial' manipulation||Ten Lies I Told as a Mormon Missionary|
|73. Mormon 'prophet' Hinckley covered up Mormon teaching of becoming gods||Mormon Profits and Lying|
|74. Blood atonement: How Jesus' blood is anemic per Mormonism||Blood Atonement||What is Mormon Doctrin of "blood atonement"?|
|76. Mountain Meadows Massacre: First 9/11 terrorist act in USA||Mountain Meadows Massacre:MOUNTAIN MEADOWS MASSACRE HORROR CONTINUES 150 YEARS LATER + Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #133-134)||Mountain Meadow Massacre|
|78 to 81. Mormon Racism: Exclusion of blacks from Priesthood into 1978||Blacks and the priesthood + Racism + Racial Statements in LDS Scriptures + See Bott file & links||>Racism and Mormonism + Top 10 Mormon Problems|
|83. Lds stances re: women||Great Moments in Mormon History + Making Mormon 'Spirit' Babies [Ecumenic]|
|87. Lack of Lds church financial transparency -- even to its own members/leaders||Mormon church earns $7 billion a year from tithing, analysis indicates|
|89. Supposedly 'lay clergy' Mission Presidents receive 'sweet' 'benefits' deal||Unpaid Mormon leaders get pretty sweet deal|
|94. Relying upon emotional sentiments? (A 'testimony')||Quick Responses to the 10 Most Common LDS Questions (See #7)|
Indeed...from FAIR's own Web site: Of 'Mormon Studies' and Apologetics [Mormon apologist recounts his firing by BYU]
Here was an earlier report from June of 2012 about Peterson's firing: BYU Professor Daniel Peterson Fired as Editor of Mormon Studies Review at BYUs Maxwell Institute
Changes are coming.
|Top 7 Issues Leading to Mormon Exodus||% of Sampled Disaffected Lds Pinpointing Specific Issues (Per Sample of 3,000+ LDS, what % rated as a 'major problem')||Q: What is Dehlin's take on these issues?|
|1. Fallout from disbelieving Mormon theology/doctrine||74%||"Forget 'true.' Consider 'good.' -- What will bring you the most joy?" Source: Slide 36, http://www.slideshare.net/mormonstories/why-people-leave-the-lds-mormon-church-and-how-we-can-help-1232579|
|2. Studying Mormon church history leading to disbelief||70%...and per p. 11 of Mormon sample taken by Dehlin, the third-fastest rising issue as affecting disbelief||* 5th generation LDS * Mormon world view * Very conservative theological and doctrinal LDS education * Served mission * Married in temple * "Morally clean" * Aspired to high level church positions * Called as early morning seminary teacher [slide 7 from Oct 2007 presentation found at: http://www.slideshare.net/mormonstories/how-to-stay-in-the-lds-church-after-losing-your-faith]...Then in slide 8, he said: "In spite of 32 years of church education, didn't ever learn about...* "Peepstone in hat" treasure digging and translation of Book of Mormon * Credibility issues w/ the 3 and 8 witnesses * Multiple lst vision stories, and the changing narrative of founding stories * Book of Mormon historicity issues * Book of Abraham papyrus issues * Joseph Smith having 30+ wives, 8+ of them married to other men at the time they were sealed to Joseph * Post-Manifesto polygamy, and polygamy as a requirement for exaltation * The depth of the Temple Masonry connections * The basics of Mountain Meadows (though lots about Haun's mill)...* The extreme racist statements and opposition in civil rights by top church leaders In slide 9: Dehlin "felt * Deceived * Disappointed * Angry * Like it was all a fraud * Like I had a moral obligation to resign" "I quickly discovered that I was not not alone...not by a long shot"|
|3. Losing faith/testimony in Joseph Smith||70%||"Once this happens to you...* You can never look at Joseph Smith the same way again * You never look at scripture the same way again * You never look at the church the same way again * You never think of 'authority' the same way again * Your concept of God and Jesus and the 'one true church' can change dramatically." 2008 presentation, slide 31|
|4. Losing faith in Book of Mormon as historical account||65%||Per the 2012 Sunstone conference, he "doesn't believe the Book of Mormon is a literal history, but believes it is inspired" Per his Oct 2007 powerpoint: "Decades of serious and honest scholarship have failed to uncover credible evidence that these Book of Mormon civilizations ever existed" (slide 11); In his 2008 powerpoint (slide 24): "What the history/facts seem to tell us...the Book of Mormon * Has had over 4,000 changes. Many minor, some major. * Geography? "Narrow neck?" Which Cumorah? Where is Cumorah? No one knows. * Where are the steel swords? Armor? Bones? * Horses? Elephants? Steel? Barley? Wheat? 7-day calendar? * DNA? 95%+ Asiatic * Who are the Lamanites? * View of the Hebrews. Book of Abraham--Experts agree (Nibley included)--is not a translation of the papyrus|
|5. Losing confidence in Lds general authorities||50%||Dehlin has actually had conversational access to Lds general authorities. Per the 2012 Wheat & Tares article based upon a Dehlin Sunstone presentation: "John asked point blank if the person [a member of the Quorum of the 12] "wanted liberal Mormons inside the church, and the apostle emphatically said yes..."|
|6. Lds stances re: women||47%||For more on this, see Feb. 10, 2013 Podcast: 400: Top 5 Myths and Truths about Why Committed Mormons Leave the Church|
|7. Mormon Racism: Exclusion of blacks from Priesthood into 1978||43%||2008, slide 13 includes these Brigham Young quotes from the Journal of Discourses: "You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race that they should be the 'servant of servants;' and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree."--Brigham Young JOD v. 7 p. 290 "Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." --Brigham Young JOD vol. 10, p. 109|
* Source for column 2: Page 8 of UNDERSTANDING MORMON DISBELIEF: Why do some Mormons lose their testimony, and what happens to them when they do?
* 2012 Sunstone Conference (see Sunstone 2012 Recap)
* 2009 = How to Stay in the Lds Church After a Major Trial of Faith (Oct. 12, 2009)
* 2008 = Why People Leave the LDS Church, and what family/friends/community can do about it
God provides many blessings. It is good that we recognize those blessings which are Mormon.
I will join you in praying for any faithful believers in the Mormon Church, but I can’t say I recognize any blessings FROM the Mormon church.
All blessings flow from the hand of God- by way of Jesus the Christ.
I worry that Mormon believers (in Jesus) will not have victory over darkness in this world, or will they ever find the meaning of “shalom”.
God’s will be done.
This brings to mind that the origins of the LDS and the profile of its "prophet" bear striking similarities with Islam and Mohammed. Both borrowed heavily and clumsily from Judaism and Christianity and both leaders were charismatic frauds who were inclined to alter their prophesies for convenience sake and take whatever they wanted, up to and including every girl and woman that caught their eye.
God's blessings come in many forms; present themselves through many different avenues.
It is proper that we recognize the Mormon faith as one of those avenues, and give thanks for it.
How does one “up their game” in defending a lie, lie better?
It looks as though the majority of ex-Mormons fall into atheism. That’s the biggest tragedy of Mormonism.
Problems noted in the Article: The Internet increases access to -- and questions about -- the entirety of church history ... increasingly frequent run-ins are changing church members' attitudes toward criticisms of its history and doctrine ... [there is a] cultural shift within the church ... [church members] think that Sunday school is a history class, and it's not ... [there is a rapidly] growing audience [of doubting believers] ...
FAIR's Non-Response: [We are gathering] to provide this education in a believing, faithful and unafraid spirit ... not here to stir the pot; we're here to try to heal wounds in a safe environment ... [to] appreciate the great things the church has accomplished ... [hopefully the "great things" will demonstrate] truthfulness of the its teachings -- even with [i.e. despite] the [amoral, satanic, occult, bizarre sexual practices and criminal] weaknesses and shortcomings of its members [including its leadership, down to and including its founding prophet]
In other words: The primary apologetics ministry of the Mormon Church is dancing around the issues, providing non-answers to the tough questions, because quite frankly, they have no other alternative! The Church is rapidly losing the war!
Colofornian, great post. Thanks.
I mean it's got what? 138 sections or so...and the first 123 of them (+ sections 133, 134, & 137) were Smithized into being by March 1839...meaning the Mormon god was quite effusive post Book of Mormon's 1830 print date for 9 years...and since then these Mormon "prophets" have been rather seerless.
I mean section 135 isn't "revelational"...just a historical account from Mormon leaders' eyes...
So...we get a dream from an old man nephew of Smith -- about to die -- and that's deemed "scripturable" to add to the D&C as section 138...along with a brief nothing by Brigham as D&C 137...
What happened to the "continuing revelation"???
And then, even with those 1830s "revelations"...all those names in those sections...
Did you ever stop and see how many of those names of Mormons mentioned by Smith apostatized?
These weren't for the most part wicked men...Thomas B. Marsh per an official D&C student manual published by the Mormon church in 2000 labeled Marsh "among God's noblest sons" (p. 65, published 2000) He was part of the apostles quorum as of 1837.
Why did Marsh leave the church? Thomas B. Marshs Story: A More Accurate Version of Why He Left the Church
In the index of that student manual, W.W. Phelps -- whose name pops up in a LOT of Mormon hymns -- is mentioned as having become disaffected and excommunicated (see p. 505).
Phelps was rejected as a member yet was said to be a "man of God"
Just look at all of the names of the Mormons who left in the D&C:
* William McLellan (M'Lellin)
* Lyman E. Johnson, part of the 1837 apostles quorum
* Luke S. Johnson, part of the 1837 apostles quorum
* John F. Boynton, part of the 1837 apostles quorum
The early leaders with Smith all left...Sidney Rigdon, David Whitmer, John Whitmer (mentioned in D&C 47:1), Warren Cowdery ALL Left the Mormon Church! ...Warren Cowdery joined Warren Parrish, Leonard Rich, and Stephen Burnett leaving in Kirtland...
Even Mormons like Oliver Cowdery & a feeble-minded, feeble-bodied Martin Harris who died having returned to some level of fellowship with Mormons, each left for a while.
William Law was a counselor to Smith...and turned vs. him vociferously...
Even Lds apostle Orson Pratt was disaffected vs. Smith when Smith tried to have him turn over his wife to him -- like Lds apostle quorum leader Orson Hyde had to do...and even Hyde signed the same affidavit referenced in the Marsh link above.
Ezra Booth's name pops up a few times in the D&C. He left and returned to Methodism.
James Covill is mentioned in D&C 39 & 40...he had been a Baptist minister for about 40 years...he exited Mormonism.
Later in Mormonism...see: The last son of Joseph Smith understood the power of doubt [Real Mormonism]
Here's a true Christian. 'Nuff said.
(A Quiz: Match 8 these 8 past Mormon leaders to the "answers" about them)
Some of them remained loyal...despite Smith targeting their wives.
How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg?
Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg. -- Abraham Lincoln
Giving you the benefit of the doubt because apparently you didn't know, calling people like Robert Tildon, Fred Phelps, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson Christian doesn't make them Christian!
“It is good that we recognize those blessings which are Mormon.”
Believing in many false gods is not a blessing.
Believing in a false gospel of man-made works is not a blessing.
Believing in a false Christ is not a blessing.
"If you give me a FALSE Christ, I will send it back."
"If you try to pawn off a FALSE gospel of works, I will send it back."
"If you try to get me to believe in millions of mormonic gods, I will send them all back."
-Anthony Grotti, The Office
The Narrow and Wide Gates
13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
How can mormonism be a blessing when it opposes the word of God?
No Other Gospel
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
The bible says there are no other gods, that God has always been God and not a man who became a god. People will not be married in heaven like the mormons claim.
If you believe anything that contradicts the bible, how can that be a blessing? Didn't Paul warn us about false teachers and prophets?
* Lyman E. Johnson, part of the 1837 apostles quorum
* Luke S. Johnson, part of the 1837 apostles quorum
The Johnson’s probably left when Joey Smith raped their sister...
Truth has a way of doing that to one.
So this thread is I & CCs II.
(But that's OK if you're chronologically challenged...we love the challenged here)
Again an empty quip from one who so loves the LDS he won’t join himself...
Who is that?
And what is a “true Christian”, according to you.
Would you please define hate?
Again I ask, how is posting direct links to lds sources and the words of lds leaders ‘hate’?
Unless, you mean what these words and leaders say about Christians, that is.
Please, provide examples, thanks.
“I join you in praying with, and for, our Mormon Christian brothers.
God provides many blessings. It is good that we recognize those blessings which are Mormon.”
So what blessings are you talking about? The blessing of having an illogical belief system and depending on a false prophet and false works for to earn salvation and godhood in the Celestial Kingdom? Will Mormons be blessed in hell for their denial of the savior?
“It is proper that we recognize the Mormon faith as one of those avenues, and give thanks for it.”
No thanks. You stick with your broad religion, and I’ll stick with the One-way of Jesus Christ. “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes unto the Father, but by me.”
You sure are obsessed with attacking anyone who says negative stuff about Mormonism. Why are you so hateful against Christianity?
In my lifetime, I have invited many to pray with me, and give thanks to God.
You are not the first to recoil at the prospect.
Nor are you the first to include my fellow Baptists in your dismissive zealotry.
I will pray without you then, and give thanks for the power of God's influence.
I will pray that it finds, and blesses you.
P.S. Welcome to FreeRepublic
“I will pray without you then, and give thanks for the power of God’s influence.
I will pray that it finds, and blesses you.”
What confused rubbish is this? Talk all you like, but you have nothing whatever to do with Christianity. So go and pray to your idol for me, and see if perhaps he will be able to save you from the judgment of Jesus Christ.
I agree. I think we should put EVERYBODY in that bowl.
Ok I normally don’t feed your trolling efforts but I gotta ask. You’re an all paths Baptist? Never heard of such especially given Baptist are among the more stable of believers doctrine wise and are among the best at resisting the liberalizing effects of the modernization efforts of 21st century American “Christianity”...
Won’t even touch a baptist defending Mormonism....
Fortunately we don’t look to you for “thinking”...
The more people outside the church learned about Mormonism, the harder it became to be Mormon. When people were ignorant, you could make the church seem mainstream by skipping over all the weird stuff.
My relationship with God is a personal one, and does not require the authentication of sinners.
This very morning He told me I'm doing good work here.
He reminded me to not be heartbroken by those who recoil or cringe at the prospect of prayer and giving thanks. That it is His sadness to bear, and not mine.
I prayed for you both, and my prayers have been heard.
“This very morning He told me I’m doing good work here.”
Teaching men that there is more than one way to heaven? How is that even logical? The voices in your head are not from God.
Argumentum ad hominem. Always illustrative.
Thank you for the clarity.