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Dispelling the Anti-Mormon Myth
The Fledgling's Tale ^ | 7/31/13 | Jen

Posted on 08/01/2013 7:59:33 AM PDT by colorcountry

Remember: when you see the bitter apostate, you do not see only an absence of light, you see also the presence of darkness. Do not spread disease germs! - Boyd K. Packer

This past Saturday, The New York Times published an article titled "Some Mormons Search the Web and Find Doubt." The article is about Hans Mattsson who was an Area Authority in the LDS church, and it discusses his crisis of faith. I admire his courage in speaking out about his issues with the church, and I think it is further evidence that doubts affect all types of members. I encourage everyone to read the article and watch the video.

There has been a lot of discussion online in response to this article, and not surprisingly, the issue of anti-Mormons and anti-Mormon material keeps coming up. As a Mormon I was aware of the fact that there were a lot of anti-Mormons in the world, and that many of them wrote books, articles, websites and blogs dedicated to telling lies about the church. Now that I have left the church, my perspective of this label has changed completely, and I can see just how harmful it is.

"The word "anti-Mormon" is meant to be nothing more than an ugly pejorative. It is usually slapped on anyone who questions or disagrees with the teachings of the LDS faith and implies that the perceived critic is somehow "against" (anti) Mormons (as individuals)." - Bill McKeever

What makes something qualify as anti-Mormon? The general idea within the LDS church, and one that is frequently perpetuated by its leaders, is that anyone or anything that teaches something that contradicts the church's teachings, or paints the church in a negative light, is anti-Mormon. Read the following list and see if you can pick out which are anti-Mormon statements:

1. Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon using a special rock called a peep stone. He placed it in a hat, then put his face in the hat to block out the light, and then text was revealed to him on the surface of the stone. Joseph also sometimes received revelations through the stone. 2. Joseph Smith practiced polygamy, and had as many as 33 wives or more. Some of these marriages were polyandrous, meaning that Joseph married women who were already married to other men. Some of Joseph's wives were teenage girls. Joseph was secretive about his various marriages. In fact, at one point he married two sisters (who had been brought into their home as maids) and neither knew that the other was married to Joseph. 3. There are varying accounts of the First Vision, including differences in who visited Joseph, what he had been praying about, what was said to him, and even when the vision took place. 4. Joseph Smith and the others with him drank wine while in Carthage Jail. 5. The Book of Abraham does not match the contents of the papyri it was supposedly translated from. In fact, not only is the text nothing more than ordinary funerary papers, but the papyri have also been found to have originated much later than Abraham's time. 6. Oliver Cowdery used a diving rod to receive revelation and translate. 7. Joseph Smith was a treasure seeker or money digger, who was often involved in efforts to search for buried treasure by means of folk magic (including the use of diving rods and peep stones). 8. Many changes were made to revelations in the Book of Commandments before they were reprinted as the Doctrine and Covenants. 9. Joseph Smith claimed to have translated a portion of the Kinderhook Plates which were later discovered to be a hoax. 10. Mormon settlers massacred over 100 unarmed men, women and children in the Mountain Meadows Massacre in southern Utah, in 1857. 11. There was a group of men in the early church known as the "Danites," who were known for attacking non-Mormons. 12. Changes have been made to the text of the Book of Mormon over the years. One of the most significant changes involved altering references that referred to Jesus as "God" into "the Son of God."

Of all the issues on this list, how many of them have you heard discussed in Sacrament Meeting, Sunday School, General Conference, or other church meetings? How many of them are addressed in lesson manuals, Ensign articles and other church publications? How many of them seem to contradict things you have been taught in church? How many of them are you inclined to disregard as anti-Mormon statements?

The fact is that all of these statements can be verified in church approved resources. Every single one of them. (See notes below.) But these things aren't being taught in church, and many of them do contradict current church teachings. So by the generally accepted definition of "anti-Mormon," these statements qualify, and they come from the church itself!

I think it's time for the church and its members to abandon use of the term "anti-Mormon" for a few reasons. First of all, it is disingenuous and manipulative of the church leaders to encourage members to discover truth for themselves while also teaching that members should only trust "approved" resources. The truth should be evident, regardless of what sources are used. It is also misleading to categorize things as anti-Mormon when so much of what is discussed is verifiable in church resources.

Another reason the term "anti-Mormon" is harmful is because it is associated with a feeling of persecution among the members. They often feel like they are being attacked when someone presents information to them that is contrary to what they've been taught. An awful lot of feelings get hurt needlessly simply because of a misconception. If you can discuss differing views about politics without taking it personally when someone disagrees with you, then the same should be true of discussing religious beliefs. Disagreeing with an idea or a belief is not the same as hating the person who espouses those beliefs.

I think the worst thing about the term "anti-Mormon" is that it's so divisive. It polarizes people, and it shuts down discussion that is desperately needed. The world is not black and white. Not everything can be neatly categorized as pro-Mormon and anti-Mormon. The LDS religion is nuanced and complex. There are a variety of perspectives about different facets of it. It is a shame when dialogue is curtailed because of accusations that someone is anti-Mormon, or their source is anti-Mormon. It causes hard feelings on both sides of the fence, and it is often a factor in damaged relationships between people who leave the church and their friends and family who are still believing members.

Ultimately, the term "anti-Mormon" is not only damaging and counterproductive, but it is also inaccurate. The simple truth is that most people who are labeled as anti-Mormon have nothing against Mormons. In fact, many of them were once Mormons themselves. Many have countless friends and family members who are still in the church. These are people who love Mormons, not hate them. Love is what motivates many of them.

It's time to drop the term "anti-Mormon" from our vocabulary so it can stop detracting from the important issues, like open and honest discussions in the never-ending search for truth.

Note: The list above is by no means comprehensive, and is only a sampling of what can be found in the church's own resources. I will provide links to verify each statement, however please be aware that many of the statements can be confirmed in multiple places, and it would be too time consuming for me to provide links to every reference.

1. http://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/07/a-treasured-testament?lang=eng http://www.lds.org/ensign/2013/01/great-and-marvelous-are-the-revelations-of-god?lang=eng 2. http://www.lds.org/ensign/1979/06/steadfastness-and-patient-endurance-the-legacy-of-edward-partridge http://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/M18K-6J5 http://josephsmithpapers.org/person/marinda-nancy-johnson-hyde http://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/M1ZP-PZV 3. http://www.lds.org/ensign/1985/01/joseph-smiths-recitals-of-the-first-vision?lang=eng http://www.lds.org/ensign/1996/04/joseph-smiths-testimony-of-the-first-vision?lang=eng 4. http://byustudies.byu.edu/hc/hcpgs/hc.aspx?HC=/hc/6/1.html&A=616 (Vol. 7, Ch. 9, Pg. 101) 5. http://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/07/i-have-a-question 6. http://history.lds.org/article/doctrine-and-covenants-oliver-cowdery?lang=eng http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/revelation-april-1829-b-dc-8 7. http://byustudies.byu.edu/hc/hcpgs/hc.aspx?HC=/hc/6/1.html&A=616 (Vol. 3, Ch. 3, Pg. 29) http://josephsmithpapers.org/intro/joseph-smith-and-his-papers-an-introduction?p=2 8. http://books.google.com/books?id=pbkUAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=book+of+commandments&hl=en&ei=4lFATZTYIYH4sAP45oSzCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=book-thumbnail&resnum=1&ved=0CDcQ6wEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false http://www.lds.org/ensign/1985/02/preparing-early-revelations-for-publication?lang=eng 9. http://www.lds.org/ensign/1981/08/kinderhook-plates-brought-to-joseph-smith-appear-to-be-a-nineteenth-century-hoax?lang=eng http://archive.org/stream/improvementera6509unse#page/n21/mode/2up 10. http://www.lds.org/ensign/2007/09/the-mountain-meadows-massacre 11. http://www.lds.org/ensign/1979/04/missouris-impact-on-the-church http://www.lds.org/friend/1993/07/persecutions-in-missouri 12. http://www.lds.org/ensign/1983/12/understanding-textual-changes-in-the-book-of-mormon


TOPICS: Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: antimormon; inman
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1 posted on 08/01/2013 7:59:33 AM PDT by colorcountry
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To: Colofornian; Elsie; FastCoyote; svcw; Zakeet; SkyPilot; rightazrain; Tennessee Nana; ...

This goes out to all who have born the label “anti-Mormon.”


2 posted on 08/01/2013 8:02:06 AM PDT by colorcountry (The gospel will transform our politics, not vice versa (Romans 12:1,2))
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To: colorcountry

Sorry. I will continue to be “anti-Mormon”.


3 posted on 08/01/2013 8:02:58 AM PDT by daniel boob
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To: colorcountry

Sorry. I will continue to be “anti-Mormon”.


4 posted on 08/01/2013 8:02:58 AM PDT by daniel boob
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To: daniel boob

Good. Me too. I’ll wear the badge they put on me, until they finally see.


5 posted on 08/01/2013 8:04:49 AM PDT by colorcountry (The gospel will transform our politics, not vice versa (Romans 12:1,2))
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To: colorcountry

I am not anti-Mormon. I an anti-Mormon theology.


6 posted on 08/01/2013 8:11:46 AM PDT by SkyDancer (Live your life in such a way that the Westboro church will want to picket your funeral.)
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To: colorcountry

Real question: The Mormons I have met are decent, well educated, intelligent, and neighbor-friendly, so how can such people believe in all the fantastical poppycock that the Book of Mormon is full of? Why are they so deceived?


7 posted on 08/01/2013 8:15:23 AM PDT by elcid1970 ("The Second Amendment is more important than Islam.")
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To: colorcountry
Instead of using more accurate terms or words like “church critic”, the word “anti-” is used as it relates to the mormons as a people, “anti-mormon”. That it is a personal prejudice. To draw parallels to many “anti-” [such as anti-semitism] pogroms from the past and currently.

It’s an incendiary word that is already loaded with negative connotations that arouses in people a reflexive response that is neither necessary or relevant, almost feral in nature.

To elicit a sympathy response from an outsider who may or may not understand what has actually been said in previous discussions, only reflexive outrage. “Propaganda”, “attacker”, “misrepresent”, “twist”, etc. all fall into the same category.

The obstinate and childish nature becomes evident when the poster is confronted. The projection begins, the revision of comments and quotes, the “lols”, etc. All in an attempt to present himself as above the “fray”, better than the opposition because he’s attempting to claim the moral high ground. That he’s just a “poor widdle mormon being persecuted by all those evil evangelicals”.

Attempts to ridicule, deride or malign are the typical response. The choice of words, sentence and comment construction are such that it projects to the reader that only he is noble, that all those who reject his premises are ignoble, are untrustworthy, not sincere. That is a tool of deceit. Deceit is the devil’s playground. Dancing right up to the edge of truth, yet never entering.

All one has to do is follow the trail of comments to see how the poster “responds” to the criticism of his beloved church. Doesn’t matter if the criticism is true or not. The only thing that matters is the source of said criticism. Mormons are NOT permitted by their authorities to question their church.

They have been warned and admonished. IF they choose to do so, they will find themselves before their bishop or a “court of love” to determine whether or not they are disfellowshipped or excommunicated.

So for any who think a TBM will constructively criticize the mormon church, think again. It ain’t gonna happen. But we need to pray for them. If this behavior is the last bastion a mormon has to fall back on, then it should be quite evident to any that they are most certainly led astray.

Here's a "comment" from a FReeper from some time back that I believe accurately reflects that attitude of most who insist on mischaracterizing those of us who are ex-mo's and challenge LDS doctrine..."The anti Mormons here have blood on their hands....... they are the scum left from the Mormon killers of old."

8 posted on 08/01/2013 8:19:03 AM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: colorcountry
"Some Mormons Search the Web and Find Doubt."

Do tell?

Some Catholics search the web and find doubt. So do some Protestants. Some married men search the web and find pornography. Some liberals search Free Republic and find doubt.

Others liberals find mindless attacks on one of a dwindling number of religious denominations who don't buy into the liberal agenda and find hope that the conservative movement is hopelessly divided quarreling over how many angels to stand on a pin and other theological minutia and press on with their godless agenda.

Sorry to interrupt. Now, go back to preaching to your worthless little faction.

9 posted on 08/01/2013 8:20:56 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: Vigilanteman; Zakeet

Please refer to post #8.

Have a GREAT day!

:-D


10 posted on 08/01/2013 8:31:20 AM PDT by colorcountry (The gospel will transform our politics, not vice versa (Romans 12:1,2))
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To: colorcountry; SZonian

Meant to ping you to this post #10.


11 posted on 08/01/2013 8:32:23 AM PDT by colorcountry (The gospel will transform our politics, not vice versa (Romans 12:1,2))
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To: Vigilanteman
Now, now. Don't detract from the ravings of the new THREE MINUTES' HATE poster. When they really get wound up in their bigotry you can tell because they foam at the mouth.

Another clue is when they make multipage posts in seconds, from pre-prepared rants.

12 posted on 08/01/2013 8:33:33 AM PDT by jimt (Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed.)
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To: colorcountry
I am fine with Anti Mormon because the rational know two things, it is against the tenants and doctrine not the people and “Anti-Mormon” = “Pro-Truth”.
13 posted on 08/01/2013 8:36:12 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: SZonian

Anti-cult-of-every-kind-placemarker

[and greetings to SZ!]


14 posted on 08/01/2013 8:37:55 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ( The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws. - Tacituss)
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To: jimt
Ahhhh... another post that needs the WAAAAMBulance EMT

"Now, now. Don't detract from the ravings of the new THREE MINUTES' HATE poster. When they really get wound up in their bigotry you can tell because they foam at the mouth. Another clue is when they make multipage posts in seconds, from pre-prepared rants."

FIX:

"Now, now. Don't detract from the TRUTH posted about the cult of mormonism. When they really feel compassion toward those caught in mormonism, they spend time showing TRUTH. Another clue is when they save time by reposting answers to repeated mormon questions, or misunderstandings of God's Holy Scriptures."

15 posted on 08/01/2013 8:41:16 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ( The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws. - Tacituss)
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To: jimt

I note you only rush in to “defend” mormonism by using perjoratives and mischaracterizations of FReepers as your defense mechanism.

Is there any instance of “defending” Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Pagans, etc. in your record?

Doubtful, which goes to show your bigotry and hypocrisy is obviously focused only on those who challenge the doctrine and theology of mormonism, using a variation of the tactics described in the article.

Thanks for providing an example of what the author is talking about.


16 posted on 08/01/2013 8:42:14 AM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: jimt

You are very angry at me then. Why? Is it perhaps fright?


17 posted on 08/01/2013 8:50:35 AM PDT by colorcountry (The gospel will transform our politics, not vice versa (Romans 12:1,2))
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To: colorcountry; All
Thanx for posting...

ALL: FYI: Also posted on FR this a.m.: Mormon apologetics group brings conference to Provo [Mormonism being 'disenchanted' on the 'net]

LOTS of school districts get started around the country in August...Time to get "educated" on the REAL MormonISM!

18 posted on 08/01/2013 8:54:33 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: elcid1970; All
Real question: The Mormons I have met are decent, well educated, intelligent, and neighbor-friendly, so how can such people believe in all the fantastical poppycock that the Book of Mormon is full of? Why are they so deceived?

(a) Mom & Dad & other relatives trained them;
(b) Mormon leadership ingrains them thru cultic "blame games" aimed at apostates;
(c) overwhelming emphasis on "feelings" as determiner of truth...

Examples on (C):

From the Doctrine & Covenants "Student Manual" published by the Mormon church in 2000:

"Elder Boyd K. Packer described how the Spirit communicates: 'I have come to know that inspiration comes more as a FEELING than as a sound...'" (p. 378) [Packer's an "apostle"]

Reuben Clark was one of the top three hierarchical Mormons:

"...after praying to the Lord and FEELING inspired..." (p. 362)

p. 21 of the manual uses the word "feeling" or "felt" three times on p. 21...uses the word "burn" or "burning" three times (in relation to a "burning of the bosom")...

Altho Mormons place a high emphasis on education, much of Mormonism's "discernment" boils down to such sentimentalism...which leads to...

"'We can tell when the speakers are 'moved upon by the Holy Ghost' only when we, ourselves, are 'moved upon by the Holy Ghost.'" (Address delivered to seminary & institute of religion personnel July 7, 1954, as cited in the student manual, p. 144)

So there ya go. A kind of circular reasoning...well, "reasoning" isn't the right word here...circular "bosoming" perhaps...where just about anything can be constantly reinforced as "so"...

19 posted on 08/01/2013 9:07:10 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

When the mishies were cruising me for conversion as I was on my way to Vietnam, one frequent expression was

“We know these things to be true.”

This was used to quell investigators’ doubts about

Nephites
Lamanites
Gold plates inscribed in `reformed Egyptian’
Book of Abraham
Umim & Thummim
Terrestrial/Celestial/Telestial Kingdoms
BoM books with names like Jarom, Omni, Mosiah, Ether, Alma, etc.


20 posted on 08/01/2013 9:23:46 AM PDT by elcid1970 ("The Second Amendment is more important than Islam.")
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

Greetings ampu...


21 posted on 08/01/2013 9:25:45 AM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political parties in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: elcid1970; colorcountry; All
The Mormons I have met are decent, well educated, intelligent, and neighbor-friendly

I was born into mormonism in a heavily mormon area in which I knew mormons who were drunks, thieves, pedophiles, adulterers and instead of neighbor-friendly were back-biting and judgmental.

In other words, having lived in several locations where mormons were plentiful, I found that mormons are NOT any different from any other group of people except in their tendency to consider themselves superior because of the claim to have the "restored" gospel and "the one and only true church on the face of the earth" and continually exhibit the arrogance that comes from that supposed "superiority".

mormon.org "The True and Living Church

Leave it alone..mormon style

You ask "Why are they so deceived?" I ask, why are so many Christians fooled by the false face presented by mormons to the world?

22 posted on 08/01/2013 9:25:56 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Mormonism is the only religion that teaches God will forcibly separate your family after you die.)
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To: colorcountry

"If you call me anti-mormon, I will send it back."
"If you give me a FALSE Christ, I will send it back."
"If you try to pawn off a FALSE gospel of works, I will send it back."
"If you try to get me to believe in millions of mormonic gods, I will send them all back."

-Anthony Grotti, The Office


23 posted on 08/01/2013 9:29:17 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ( The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws. - Tacituss)
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To: jimt
You know after all this time of defending Mormonism, its tenants and beliefs etc. the fact they you yourself have clearly said it is your spouse that is LDS not you truly undermines your attempts a rebuttal...

This type post by you is just silly...

24 posted on 08/01/2013 9:34:45 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: Vigilanteman

Was there a point in there some where?


25 posted on 08/01/2013 9:36:02 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: SZonian; colorcountry; Vigilanteman; jimt
I was on the varsity debate squad for a leading university during my early years as an undergraduate.

One of the greatest sins you could make in a tournament, almost always promptly resulting in a loss of the contest, was resorting to ad hominem arguments ... attacking the motives or character of an individual rather than rebutting the validity of their position.

The dismissive use of the term anti-Mormon is a classic example of this loathsome practice.

It is done out of desperation.

In all of my many years of challenging the Saints with annotated facts, I have never had one instance where a Mormon was able to even minimally refute a major issue such as: the anachronisms in their scriptures; the contradictions between their scriptures; the additions and deletions to their scriptures; vast changes in their fundamental beliefs; the false prophesies made by their founders and early church members; and their sordid past.

And, of course, this is exactly why, at the present time, the Church is conducting a FAIR conference focusing on the topic of doubt by Mormons who are finally exposed to these facts regarding their faith.

26 posted on 08/01/2013 9:46:41 AM PDT by Zakeet (Democrats: Making everything free in this country except you)
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To: elcid1970

Because the Good Book tells me that in the last days even the very elect are in danger of being deceived......


27 posted on 08/01/2013 9:46:42 AM PDT by Nifster
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To: elcid1970; colorcountry; greyfoxx39; Elsie; aMorePerfectUnion; SZonian; All
Nephites
Lamanites

I'm SO glad you responded as you did...especially on a thread entitled: Dispelling the Anti-Mormon Myth

Well, yesterday I happened to be reviewing the word/topical index in the back of the 1990 Mormon church published "triple 'scriptures'" (Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, Pearl of Great Price) under the entry Lamanites.

Allow me to post the index entry as it's found on p.200:
"Alma 23:17 (24:3) Lamanite converts take new name, Anti-Nephite Lehies"

ALL: I kid you NOT!!!

Joseph Smith...in a "time period" supposedly between 90 and 77 B.C....inserts the gold plate etcher as supposedly saying in the Book of Alma:
* "And it came to pass that they called their names Anti-Nephi-Lehies; and they were called by this name and were no more called Lamanites." (Alma 23:17)
* Alma 24:1 talks about those who "had not taken upon them the name of Anti-Nephi-Lehi"
* Alma 24:2 mentions how people "took up arms against the people of Anti-Nephi-Lehi"
* Alma 24:3 says "Now the king conferred the kingdom upon his son, and he called his name Anti-Nephi-Lehi."

Oh, sure.

Pre-Christ Native Americans readily id'd selves as "Anti-Nephi-Lehies."

I believe it. Don't y'all?

/NOT!

(But I do have some parcels of land in Anti-Nephi-Lehi land I want you to consider buying sight unseen...based upon your implicit trust in my ability to describe this land to you in narrative detail)

Quite obviously, Mormons LOVE to label people as "Antis"...from their very founder on down!

28 posted on 08/01/2013 9:51:51 AM PDT by Colofornian (Mormons LOVE to label people as 'Antis'...just read 'bout the 'Anti-Nephi-Lehies' in Book of Mormon!)
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To: Zakeet; SZonian; colorcountry; All
In all of my many years of challenging the Saints with annotated facts, I have never had one instance where a Mormon was able to even minimally refute a major issue such as: the anachronisms in their scriptures...

I spent some time recently further pondering such anachronisms...This was mostly "first-hand" research...not simply reading what others who've had issues with MormonISM...but digging DIRECTLY (primarily) into Mormon church published stuff...

Mormons, take a look yourself in this same way:

* In Alma 36:18, supposedly written 73 years prior to Christ's birth, we see this phrase: "Oh, Jesus thou Son of God, have mercy on me." [Really?]
* In 2 Nephi 9:18, supposedly written in 6th century B.C....the character talks about how others "endured the crosses of the world"
* We have a Democratic principle of how "law...must be established by the voice of the people" in 87 B.C. (Alma 2:3)
* Or in 67 BC we get phrases like "yielded to the standard of liberty...are compelled to hoist the title of liberty upon their towers and in their cities..." (Alma 51:20)
* What 1850s Utah Mormons couldn't have was supposedly in abundance in 90 B.C.: "wearing costly apparel" (Alma 1:32) consisting of "silk and fine-twined linen" (Alma 1:29)
* Also Alma 1: Did the gold-etcher REALLY use the word "ignominious" as an adjective in 90 B.C.? (Alma 1:15)
* And all this resurrection of the dead stuff in 83 BC? (Alma 4:14; see also being filled with great joy because of resurrection of dead -- Alma 5:14)
* John the Baptist language in same BC period? (Alma 5:50)
* Or compare Alma 7:14 to John 3...
* Or, if Alma 7:20 was written in "reformed Egyptian" -- how did it happen that the ENGLISH word "right" (used two different ways) is utilized as a play-on-words that works ONLY in English?
* Or how did BC Alma 7:24 look like Paul's 1 Cor. 13?
* Or how did they produce cement in BC times (Alma 9:28; see also Helaman 3:7,11)
* We see "church joining" in 120-100 BC times, eh? (Mosiah 26:14)
* Steel in Ether 7:9...or breakable windows in Ether 2:23...which supposedly was even earlier BC wise than all the above...

29 posted on 08/01/2013 10:11:33 AM PDT by Colofornian (Mormons LOVE to label people as 'Antis'...just read 'bout the 'Anti-Nephi-Lehies' in Book of Mormon!)
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To: colorcountry
Remember: when you see the bitter apostate, you do not see only an absence of light, you see also the presence of darkness. Do not spread disease germs! - Boyd K. Packer

Hey there Boyd!

What about ME??

A fella that never WAS a deceived MORMON??

30 posted on 08/01/2013 10:13:29 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: colorcountry
This goes out to all who have born the label “anti-Mormon.” CHRISTIAN!
31 posted on 08/01/2013 10:14:11 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Zakeet
Well bully for you! I was on a debating team once, too!

Some of us take this purpose statement of Free Republic at its word:

Free Republic is the premier online gathering place for independent, grass-roots conservatism on the web. We're working to roll back decades of governmental largesse, to root out political fraud and corruption, and to champion causes which further conservatism in America. And we always have fun doing it. Hoo-yah!

So tell me how your mindless "How many angels can stand on the head of a pin?" debates do anything to further conservatism in America?

Particularly when the rest of us aren't even interested in arguing with your ilk. You don't win a debate just because we ignore you.

My apologies for paying you any attention and crashing in on your pity party. Now, I'm back to ignoring you as I should have done in the first place.

32 posted on 08/01/2013 10:15:08 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: colorcountry
Remember: when you see the bitter apostate, you do not see only an absence of light, you see also the presence of darkness. Do not spread disease germs! - Boyd K. Packer

Everyone else; when you hear a MORMON speak; remember what MORMONism is founded upon:


Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

33 posted on 08/01/2013 10:16:31 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: SZonian

I do think there is room for the use of terms like “church critic” to describe a person who sets forth well thought out analyses of doctrine, history, or practice. But I think anti-mormon is still useful, especially in describing those who make a cottage industry out of their discourse, especially when it is markedly hostile.


34 posted on 08/01/2013 10:28:14 AM PDT by Burkean (.)
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To: elcid1970
Why are they so deceived?

1. Some were born into it and it is their CULTURE as well.
2. Some do not have a cursory knowledge of what the BIBLE has taught for centuries asnd bought into what the missionaries told them.
3. Some were LoveBombed into the cult and have not had time yet to completely find out what they have chosen.

Bottom line is this...



2 Corinthians 11:12-15

12. But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.



 

Did God REALLY say...


35 posted on 08/01/2013 10:31:24 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: SZonian
It’s an incendiary word that is already loaded with negative connotations that arouses in people a reflexive response....

Yup; like calling someone a RACIST or a HATER or a BIGOT.

It deflects the 'anti' away from examineing the falsity of whatever is being exosed, and into a defensive mode of trying to prove that they AIN'T what they just been called!


Homie don't play dat!

36 posted on 08/01/2013 10:34:39 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: SZonian
"The anti Mormons here have blood on their hands....... they are the scum left from the Mormon killers of old."

From someone who apparently APPROVED of the antics of the Danites - Porter Rockwell - and/or Friends of the Utes??



37 posted on 08/01/2013 10:36:03 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Vigilanteman
Now, go back to preaching to your worthless little faction.

Ah...

The love just oozes!


"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;

and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,

and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.

Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)



Have a great ETERNITY!!

38 posted on 08/01/2013 10:37:40 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Vigilanteman
"Some Mormons Search the Web and Find Doubt."

While others search it and find Truth.

39 posted on 08/01/2013 10:49:12 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: jimt
Poor ol' Jim.

NEVER has anything to add other than his 3 minute mantra...


The "Hates" (two-minutes hate and hate week) were inspired by the constant rallies sponsored by party organs throughout the Stalinist period. These were often short pep-talks given to workers before their shifts began ((two minutes hate), but could also last for days, as in the annual celebrations of the anniversary of the October revolution (hate week).


(Mormonism tends to inflate EVERYTHING!)

40 posted on 08/01/2013 10:54:32 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: jimt
Another clue is when they make multipage posts in seconds, from pre-prepared rants.

Please don't HATE me for being efficient!


 
 
http://www.mrm.org/heaven-and-hell#Hell
 
 Apostle and popular church educator John Widtsoe wrote:

"Now, it may be contended that a judgment, with some degree of salvation for all, encourages the sinner to pursue his dark ways. Not so. However generous the judgment, it is measured by our works. Our punishment will be the heavy regret that we might have received a greater reward, a higher kingdom, had our lives conformed more nearly to truth. Such remorse may yield keener pain than physical torture." (Understandable Religion, p. 89)

While Widtsoe is careful not to call a heavenly kingdom "hell", he is nonetheless certain that there will be a keen regret for lost opportunities:

"Humanity will be grouped according to their works in three main divisions: Celestial (like the sun), Telestial (like the moon), Terrestrial (like the earth). Within each group there will be many gradations and divisions, until from the lowest to the highest in all groups there will be a series of gradually ascending glories. There can be no talk of a hell, except for the few 'sons of Perdition,' but undoubtedly the regret for lost opportunities will be keen among those in the lower degrees of glory." (Program of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, p. 226)

Joseph Fielding Smith, on the other hand, considers the tormenting regret experienced in the bottom two heavenly kingdoms and concludes "in that sense it will be hell":

"This earth will become a celestial kingdom when it is sanctified. Those who enter the terrestrial kingdom will have to go to some other sphere which will be prepared for them. Those who enter the telestial kingdom, likewise will have to go to some earth which is prepared for them, and there will be another place which is hell where the devil and those who are punished to go with him will dwell. Of course, those who enter the telestial kingdom, and those who enter the terrestrial kingdom will have the eternal punishment which will come to them in knowing that they might, if they had kept the commandments of the Lord, have returned to his presence as his sons and his daughters. This will be a torment to them, and in that sense it will be hell." (Answers to Gospel Questions, v. 2, p. 210)

This line of thinking is interesting in light of Joseph Smith's following teaching:

"A man is his own tormenter and his own condemner. Hence the saying, They shall go into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone. The torment of disappointment in the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone" (TPJS, p. 357)

The entry in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism on "Damnation" essentially explains that the bottom two kingdoms of heaven are kingdoms of damnation:

"Just as there are varying degrees and types of salvation, coupled with eternal progression in some areas (D&C 76:96-98; 131:1-4), so are there varying degrees and types of damnation. In LDS doctrine, to be damned means to be stopped, blocked, or limited in one's progress. Individuals are damned whenever they are prevented from reaching their full potential as children of God. Damnation is falling short of what one might have enjoyed if one had received and been faithful to the whole law of the gospel. In this sense, all who do not achieve the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom are damned, even though they are saved in some degree of glory."


http://www.mrm.org/heaven-and-hell#Hell


41 posted on 08/01/2013 10:56:02 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: colorcountry
Why? Is it perhaps fright?

Well; just who Wouldn't be FRIGHTENED when they realize the FATE that the #2 Living Prophet® foretold for them??

42 posted on 08/01/2013 10:57:59 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: elcid1970
Doubts???


SHIZ!

43 posted on 08/01/2013 10:59:23 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Vigilanteman; jimrob
Maybe you should ask why, in light of this statement, JimRob hosts a Religion section.

Free Republic is the premier online gathering place for independent, grass-roots conservatism on the web. We're working to roll back decades of governmental largesse, to root out political fraud and corruption, and to champion causes which further conservatism in America

Maybe you didn't notice that this discussion is not in the political section but in the area set aside on FreeRepublic to discuss religion.

Here is the rest of the stated position of FR, ... As a conservative site, Free Republic is pro-God, pro-life, pro-family, pro-Constitution, pro-Bill of Rights, pro-gun, pro-limited government, pro-private property rights, pro-limited taxes, pro-capitalism, pro-national defense, pro-freedom, and-pro America. I don't think Jim means the Mormon god.

44 posted on 08/01/2013 11:00:34 AM PDT by colorcountry (The gospel will transform our politics, not vice versa (Romans 12:1,2))
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To: greyfoxx39
In other words, having lived in several locations where mormons were plentiful, I found that mormons are NOT any different from any other group of people except in their tendency to consider themselves superior because of the claim to have the "restored" gospel and "the one and only true church on the face of the earth" and continually exhibit the arrogance that comes from that supposed "superiority".

Ya don't say!!!



 

MORMON
ATTITUDES OF SUPERIORITY
 

  1. I’m Superior; I have a special gift of the holy Ghost -- you don’t!
  2. I’m Superior; I have God’s true priesthood power -- you don’t!
  3. I’m Superior; I can go in God’s secret Temple -- you can’t!
  4. I’m Superior; I’ve been Endowed with special Gifts and Knowledge -- you’re just normal!
  5. I’m Superior; I’ll have my family with me in heaven -- you’ll be with strangers!
  6. I’m Superior; I’m becoming a God -- you aren’t!
  7. I’m Superior; My women know their place as servants of man and yours don’t.
  8. I’m Superior; YOUR creeds are wrong because they come from man - mine comes from God (you can find each one printed in our Scriptures).
  9. I’m Superior; I don’t HAVE a creed - I’ve got 13 Articles of Faith.
10. I'm Superior; I have 4 "Bibles"-- the standard works (5 if you count the JST) -- you've only got one: in as far as it is translated correctly.
11. I’m Superior; I can lie with impunity about such things as church membership, church growth, church doctrine, church history, church influence, etc. —                           -- You can’t.
12. I’m Superior; I am right (everybody knows) when I say 'evangelical' Christians are lunatics -- 
                           -- You’re a hideous narrow-minded bigot, who is persecuting me by practicing discrimination by saying I'm not a Christian.
13. I'm Superior; I have a testimony about a prophet -- you don't.
14. I'm Superior; I have a Scripture-producing Amos 3:7 prophet -- you don't
15. I’m Superior; I have a Living Prophet who talks to god every day -- you have a dim-witted hireling of Satan who only talks to himself.
16. I'm Superior; I have my calling & election made sure -- you don't.
17. I’m Superior; I have magic underwear to protect me from the bogey man -- you don’t.
18. I’m Superior; I have secret clasps and grips to give the angel so I get admitted to the celestial kingdom -- you don’t ;so you can’t.
19. I'm Superior; I know secret handshake codes for afterlife entrances-- you don't.
20. I’m Superior; I will see Joseph Smith setting on the right hand of GOD, when I get to Mormon heaven, and he will recognize me and judge me favorably                              -- You’re on your own; when you get to wherever you’re going!
21. I’m Superior; I’m going to hie to Kolob -- you’re going to who knows where.
22. I’m Superior; I get to have a harem and act like a celestial stud for time and all eternity -- you don’t.
23. I’m Superior; I have sun stones, moon stones, sky stones, cloud stones, Saturn stones, and the evil eye of Osirus guarding my temple
                            -- You have nothing but a stupid cross.
24. I’m Superior; My church has billions in assets stashed away -- yours has taken a stupid vow of poverty.
25. I'm Superior; Last - we have the power to keep a whole race out of our priesthood if we wanted to reinsert our 148-year legacy  (we ARE still keeping an entire GENDER at bay!)
26.  I'm superior; I have the "higher law" -- everyone else "lives under the "lesser law' because I say so...(over and over).
 
 
Revision 46.5
Semi-Official creed of the EXclusive club of Freeper Flying Inmans.
All rights liable to be abused.

45 posted on 08/01/2013 11:00:41 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: greyfoxx39
I ask, why are so many Christians fooled by the false face presented by mormons to the world?

#35 - 2

46 posted on 08/01/2013 11:02:06 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ejonesie22
This type post by you is just silly...

You would NOT be saying this if it was YOUR night to get; ahem; lucky!

--MormonDude(Just sayin'...)

47 posted on 08/01/2013 11:03:48 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ejonesie22
Was there a point in there some where?

I...

must...

resist...



48 posted on 08/01/2013 11:05:13 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: colorcountry

I’d rather be called Anti-Mormon than Harry Reid. ;)


49 posted on 08/01/2013 11:21:31 AM PDT by SENTINEL (Kneel down to God. Stand up to tyrants. STICK TO YOUR GUNS !)
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To: Vigilanteman; Colofornian; colorcountry; greyfoxx39; Elsie; All
Thank you for proving my point!

Let's begin by recalling the issue that triggered your reply ...

In all of my many years of challenging the Saints with annotated facts, I have never had one instance where a Mormon was able to even minimally refute a major issue such as: the anachronisms in their scriptures; the contradictions between their scriptures; the additions and deletions to their scriptures; vast changes in their fundamental beliefs; the false prophesies made by their founders and early church members; and their sordid past.

Now take a look at your reply to my challenge:

Well bully for you! I was on a debating team once, too!

Response: Yep. I believe it. You're better than most as demonstrated by your abundant use of some of the tricks of the [debating] trade.

Some of us take this purpose statement of Free Republic at its word

A classic debater's trick: When you can't respond to an issue, change the topic. Lawyers call this pounding the table, as in, "When you have the law on your side, pound the law; when you have the facts on your side, pound the facts; when you have nothing on your side, pound the table."

So tell me how your mindless "How many angels can stand on the head of a pin?" debates do anything to further conservatism in America?

More tricks: an ad hominem (mindless), mischaracterization (how many angels ...), reply to the changed topic.

The rest of us aren't even interested in arguing with your ilk

Another trick: Tell the judge that he doesn't need to consider your opponent because you don't want to debate him.

You don't win a debate just because we ignore you.

Another trick: Establish a false standard and hope it works. Actually, you do win a debate if the other side fails to successfully answer the issues you raise. Every time ... without question!

My apologies for paying you any attention and crashing in on your pity party.

More tricks: Back to the unimportant and ad hominem (pity party) arguments.

Now, I'm back to ignoring you as I should have done in the first place.

One last trick: When all else fails, declare victory, pick up your marbles, and go home!

Which brings us to the bottom line:

Nothing is more important in your life than determining your eternal destiny ... a fact to which all Mormons that I know readily agree. Nothing is to more important in determining whether a religion is true than the answers to the questions that I originally posed. And as noted earlier, I have never had one instance where a Mormon was able to even minimally refute those questions.

In other words, you, sir, have again proved my point.

Thank you.

50 posted on 08/01/2013 11:21:59 AM PDT by Zakeet (Democrats: Making everything free in this country except you)
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