Posted on 08/01/2013 8:41:18 PM PDT by pastorbillrandles
But you deny Paul is referring to the old physical body, while debate is not that the coming kingdom of God is not inherited by corruptible bodies of flesh and blood, but to those who have glorified incorruptible bodies, but the debate is that this means no one can spiritually be with the Lord now, despite what numerous texts say on the matter.
Is Paul saying that the body of flesh and blood will glorified and taken to heaven? Obviously not as he discusses the spiritural body versus the physical. “It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, then there is a spiritual body.” (vs. 44.)
"Obviously not?" Being sown a physical body and raised up a spiritual body does not teach that the redemption of the body is something other than the believers corruptible body, but that it is indeed that body corresponds to what Paul states, that God "shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. " (Philippians 3:21)
Believers presently are already in the kingdom of Christ, (Col. 1:13) despite having bodies of flesh and blood, which blood" represents man with his corruptible vile body, but the coming kingdom is given to those who have been glorified together with Christ with a body like unto His - who said He would raised up the His body that the lost "destroyed" (Jn. 2:19) - and thus reign with Him over overs during His 1,000 years. (Rv. 20:4,6)
Paul wrote to his “holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling..” (Heb. 2:1) And said to the Thessalonians concerning the resurrection that those sleeping in death would rise from the dead (be resurrected) before those alive at the presense of the Lord in his kingdom. (1 Thess. 4:15). Paul died and would have to “sleep in death” for a time.
Its Heb. 3:1, which book also refers the heavenly Jerusalem with an innumerable company of angels, and the spirits of just men. As for 1 Thess. 4:15, this refers to the bodily resurrection, but does not teach on where they - represented by the physical body that belonged to them - spiritually are before that.
“This best expresses that departing from them by death to be with Christ would be immediate, not 10 or potentially thousands of years later at the resurrection. Likewise [to Phil. 1:21-24] “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” (2Cor. 5:6,8) And “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” (Acts 7:59) And the just men made perfect who in the heavenly Jerusalem. (Heb. 13[12]:23) And the souls of slain men in heaven inquiring of the Lord (Rv. 6) You must reject all these as teaching believers are with the Lord before the resurrection.”
Not at all.
Yes indeed, you reject all as teaching this.
as 1 Cor. 15 makes clear, to be with Christ in heaven the believer would be raised up with a spiritual body.
"1 Cor. 15 makes clear?!" It certainly does not make that clear, only that they will be bodily with the Lord when their corruptible body puts on a glorified body like that of the Lord's in His resurrection. Meanwhile, again, numerous texts I have provided and you reject still indicate postmortem saints are with the Lord now, and thus await the "redemption of the body."
A good point, “....changed, as Christ’s was...” since Christ, as Paul said, “became a life-giving spirit”. So too then would those redeemed and given immortality in heaven be spirits with spiritual bodies. (1 Cor.15:45).
And what that means is answered by other texts:
"Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up...But he spake of the temple of his body. " (John 2:19,21)
"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. " (Luke 24:39)
"Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. " (John 20:27)
Thus Christ raised up the body which the lost killed, and which was changed into a new spiritual body with bone but no blood. And shall change the vile body of believers that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body .
Yet, as said, i can allow souls sleep itself as a possibility, though it see it as much less warranted than that believers are with the Lord in their spirit upon death. However, as it is apparent that you simply cannot allow anything other than the basic WTC/SDA interpretation on soul sleep, and ignore or constrain opposing texts to conform to it, then i am not favorable to further attempts at dialog with you, and have other debates to attend to. Perhaps see you there.
I certainly don’t want to keep you away from other matters you must attend to. So Cheers! Yes, perhaps another time.
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