Posted on 08/01/2013 8:41:18 PM PDT by pastorbillrandles
To take the parable as a description of actual persons is to nullify both the words of Eccl. 9:5 for The characters of the parable had died.
That general resurrection Jesus spoke of at John 5:28 had not occurred yet so neither Abraham nor Lazarus or any rich man could be speaking after they had died. They would have wait in death in Hades just as David was.(Acts 2:31-34)
Just as Jesus had told Nicodemus (John 3:13) that no man (that would include Abraham and Lazarus) had ascended into heaven except Christ.
The parable of Luke 16 is just that..as a comparison with what is said else where about the resurrection shows.
Certainly the Pharisees viewing themselves as being in a position of favor with “Abraham” is proved false by Jesus’ comment about the kingdom being taken from them.
I completely agree. If you will retread my posts, you will notice that I NEVER advocated for a higher reading to supplant the literal one.
All that I was doing was asking if there was another lesson in there for us.
I also wonder a bit about such little items as the 4 beasts with 6 wings in chapter 4; the 4 horsemen of chapter 6, why only 144,000 of all the tribes of Israel were sealed; and the locusts of chapter 9 are very oddly formed.
Then, what about the red dragon of chapter 11, the one with 7 heads and 10 horns? Surely this is symbolic of something?
And of course, we know that the Lamb is another Christ. Surely He will not appear as a lamb as we know the beast.
As I said, I'm a pre-millilenialist. This is a group that takes this scripture pretty seriously. Yet even they think that these are symbols for other specific individuals or institutions
I think Revelation is giving us serious warnings that are disregarded only at peril. So I think it behooves us to determine exactly what it is telling us. In short, I think there is little harm in looking a higher, more metaphorical interpretations, as long as we only use them to supplement, not replace the more literal ones.
I started this line of questioning, not to defend a point, but to further my own understanding of the question, and I truly appreciate you response.
I agree that I should be more clear.I posted those verses from Hebrews to illustrate that a great motivation to persevere is to do the work of God and lay hold of that hope/joy set before us just as Jesus endured because of the joy set before Him.Knowing that Jesus endured more than anyone.
The fear of hell may be a motivation in our beginning with God but He tells us that we have not been given the spirit of fear and so I think God turns us (as we discover His goodness toward us)from 'running from to running to'...from looking back to looking forward....from fear to hope....from despairing at our own inability to being persuaded that He is able!
Then, what about the red dragon of chapter 11, the one with 7 heads and 10 horns? Surely this is symbolic of something?
Rev. 1:2 is about John the Theologian having written down the things that he saw, like Daniel did. Doesn't mean he understood all the things he saw. Daniel did not.
I wish I had more time to discuss, but right now I have more than I can handle. Later.
Actually, it is quite evident that Hebrews, while being an evangelistic tool to the Jews (and along with Romans, the second primary doctrinal book of the NT), is written to immature Christians, who are exhorted, not to come to faith, but to keep so great salvation - based on a better covenant, promises and high priest - in the face of pressure to deny it, from internal or external sources .
"But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. " (Hebrews 6:9-10)
The subjects here are clearly Christians, not Jews being called to conversion.
"Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children , My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:... "Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: " (Hebrews 12:28) " (Hebrews 12:4-5)
The lost are children of wrath, while these "we" are persecuted Christians who have not yet resisted unto death, and are exhorted to not faint but focus on Jesus holding fast the faith, which is a constant theme in Hebrews. Likewise these are being called to continue serving, not to come to faith in the Lord Jesus. .
All such texts, which are many, esp. where personal exhortation is involved, and objectively considered in context , show they are not written to the lost - though also applicable sometimes - but those who are of faith in the Lord Jesus
A few examples chronologically:
"...when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; " (Hebrews 1:3)
Believers are the ones who have had their sins purged.
"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. " (Hebrews 3:6)
These had a beginning of their confidence, (cf. v. 14) a confidence which they are told to hold fast, not a faith they had yet come to.
"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; " (Hebrews 3:12-14)
These brethren are warned against departing from the living God in the context of holding fast to the Lord Jesus in whom they had already trusted - "the beginning of our confidence," (cf. Acts 11:23) and to exhort one another daily to that end, as which is part of Christian conduct, versus being like the Israelites who forsook their covenant, and could not enter in because of unbelief. (v.s/ 8-16) .
""For we which have believed do enter into rest,...Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. " (Hebrews 4:11)
RWP: Do enter (eiserchometha). Emphatic futuristic present middle indicative of eiserchomai. We are sure to enter in, we who believe.
Believers have a sure rest by faith, but the full realization is yet future (Rv. 14:13) and obtained by faith, thus they once again are exhorted against falling away, as said, "in departing from the living God, sinning willfully and drawing back into perdition" (Heb. 10:25; 38) which the elect will not
"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. " (Hebrews 5:12)
These were immature Christians, not lost souls being called to conversion.
"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, "Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit. " (Hebrews 6:1,2)
Rather than being written to lost souls in need of conversion, this was penned to immature believers in need of growth and fruit bearing, and are warned of the dangers of those of inert faith, but which are not them. "But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. " (Hebrews 6:9-10)
Again, this is incontrovertible testimony that the subjects of this letter were Christians.
"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus...Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)" (Hebrews 10:19,22-23)
It is only believers who already have boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, and can be told to "hold fast the profession of our faith."
"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. " (Hebrews 10:23-25)
Again, the exhortation is not to one who has yet to make a profession of faith, but to those who had that they would hold firmly to it, and exhort each other to that end.
"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. " (Hebrews 10:26-27)
It is texts as this that compels some to disallow it as addressing Christians, but as with the other exhortations, it is addressed to believers and flows from v. 25," Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."
Thus believers are warned against forsaking that fellowship which fosters faith, so that they do not impenitently live a sinful life, effectively denying the Lord that bought them. Note also that "the knowledge of the truth" is a phrase used to denote conversion. (1Tim. 2:4; 2Tim. 3:7)
"Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? " (Hebrews 10:29)
In context and according to the most natural reading, these were souls who had been sanctified by the blood of Christ, but like the Israelites the writer of Hebrews has often used as an example of drawing unto perdition," he warns them of the consequences of this denial of faith and forfeiture of what it gains, for "the Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (vs. 30,31) Likewise Gal. 5:1-4.
"But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;... For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. " (Hebrews 10:32,34)
Again, believers are the subject, exhorting them to remember how they began and not to forsake their faith and so great salvation it appropriated. "Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. " (Hebrews 10:35-36)
Here again believers are being addressed to hold firm to their faith.
"Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. " (Hebrews 10:38-39)
The just are those who possess a living and tried faith, versus those who forsake this faith, which they are warned against doing in the light of the grace given them. .
It has become obviously this examination necessarily has extended beyond revealing who is being addressed in Hebrews to what they are being exhorted to do, and which challenges OSAS . And which i believe is the reason so many attempt to relegate it to being an evangelistic call to the Jews, which is only secondarily can be considered to be.
I myself would rather hold to OSAS, and perhaps allow the warnings to be hypothetical, and i esteem other verses which provide assurance, but i must try to go wherever honest exegesis leads and i honestly see Hebrews as teaching as described herein.
Some do, but are proud of how pious they are.
I didn't say they desired hell. I said they enjoyed sinning.
I was responding to your statement that, "People desire to go to hell," though the Biblical Hell and experience is not what even some desire.
Eccl. 9:5 is judged by the Lord's words as what the fuller revelation teaches as fact. Solomon often speaks according to the natural man, and in 9:5 is is describing the physical state, and later he said, "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. " (Ecclesiastes 12:6-7)
That general resurrection Jesus spoke of at John 5:28 had not occurred yet so neither Abraham nor Lazarus or any rich man could be speaking after they had died...Just as Jesus had told Nicodemus (John 3:13) that no man (that would include Abraham and Lazarus) had ascended into heaven except Christ.
The general resurrection is not relevant here as this was not Heaven, which has no gulf btwn it and Hell, but The Lord said "Abraham's bosom," which OT saints went to as they could not enter glory yet, as described in this recent thread http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3047735/posts?page=348#348
And obviously before the resurrection, Moses and Elijah and were conscious and the so-called "good thief," Stephen, and the souls who were slain for the word of God who inquired about vengeance in Rv. 6, were with the Lord.
Just as Jesus had told Nicodemus (John 3:13) that no man (that would include Abraham and Lazarus) had ascended into heaven except Christ.
Exactly, as dealt with in the link above and a prior one.
A very good post on Hebrews; however, as touching Final Perseverance, we should not take the existence of commands and warnings in scripture as evidence for a moral ability, in and of ourselves, to either accomplish them, as in the more obvious examples wherein we are commanded to “be ye perfect, as my Father in heaven is perfect,” or to “sin no more”; and in the other case of falling away, as the scripture tells us in other places that it is impossible for the Elect to fall away, and those who do fall away are always described as “never” being known, or never “being of us,” and so they must “leave us,” to make manifest what they really are.
The same God who “calls” whom He “predestinates,” and then infallibly “justifies” them, and “whom he justifies he glorifies,” also ordains that they are to be brought forward to Christ through the preaching of the truth and of sound doctrine, which such preaching is believed and accepted effectually in the Elect by the Holy Spirit, and in the case of the reprobate is rather used to render them “unexcused,” and is a “savour of death unto death” to them.
For Christians we have not only a fear of God but also the peace knowing God is understanding and loving.
I think of David with Bathsheba. David declared that he deserved death to Nathan, but God wouldn't allow that level of punishment. There was consequences for David to be sure, but God was always loving.
His rod and His staff, they guide us. While we should fear that rod and staff, we know they are meant to help us.
It is impossible for us to do an analysis of the book of Hebrews here. Scholars today believe it was written to a mix audience. However, John MacArthur disagrees with this interpretation and I think he's correct. So do other historical authors. So I know I'm not heretical on this matter. I would suggest that the title of the book should give an indication that this book was written to the Jews. This makes sense as it talks how Christ is better than the angels, the priests, and completes the faith.
If you are trying to convince me that one must do something to keep their salvation, I'm very sorry but that is completely works oriented. Christ did it all. I rest in this fact that any good work of God that I may do in my life is due to Christ working through me. We are saved to do good works. We are not saved because of good works.
Tit_2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
That, in retrospect, was a poor choice of words on my part. People desire is to sin. Their will is bent towards sinning. They don't care if the consequence for their action is hell.
God has to give us a new heart to not be so inclined to sin.
Rather...They don't care if believe the consequence for their action is hell.
"God has to give us a new heart to not be so inclined to sin."
Amen!
From our position,an impossible task,we don't even fully KNOW our own "deceitfull above all things and desperately wicked" heart.From my admittedly limited understanding it seems to me that God first 'nukes' the old heart ie: "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and* that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13)and then exhorts us to KNOW that,to believe it in our heart.Almost every prayer of Paul's in the NT is to that end.That we would be persuaded,that we would understand,compehend,grasp,take hold of that which God has freely given us!
I can't help thinking that if that KNOWING were to be twisted into a 'sin of presumtion' then that deceitfull heart is attempting to thwart the beginning of God's good work in us in order to remain in control! To remain for all intents and purposes 'lord' over us.Keeping us in bondage to the fear and doubt of death and hell to the point we constantly are looking at how bad we are instead of how GOOD He is.
Peter goes so far as to tell us "if you do these things ye shall NEVER FALL" (2 Peter 1:10)
Who but the enemy of men's souls would want to keep that assurance from us?
"If the Son makes you free you shall be free indeed"
The “substantial teaching” you provided is in error. Solomon’s words are part of God inspired Scripture and mirror what God told sinning Adam, you will return to the dust..period.
The general resurrection is most relevant as until that point no one had come from the memorial tombs and to combine Abraham’s bosom with Paradise is something the Scriptures do not do. Nor do the Scriptures hint that Abraham’s bosom was a temporary stop for OT saints.
Those like David or Job who died before Christ would just have to wait in death till Jesus resurrected them. Hence the vision of Moses and Elijah was just that, a vision, not a pulling of them from Abraham’s bosom to a mountain or a resurrection from the dead of them.
Even the dying thief recognized any hope of remembrance would be “when you come into your kingdom”, not instantly at death.
Those events of Rev. 6 were yet to come when Jesus went forth to conquer in the midst of his enemies. (Acts 2:34,35).
Luke 16 is a parable.
How well i know. Indeed the natural mind is not subject tot he law of God, neither can it be, which is why it is not reformed, but crucified, and overcome by looking to Jesus and yielding to the Spirit. Still working on that myself.
That is a most excellent correction, thanks.
From our position,an impossible task,we don't even fully KNOW our own "deceitfull above all things and desperately wicked" heart.
Absolutely. In our Sunday School class last week our instructor stated that the more he learned about the holiness of God, the more he understood the depths of his sinfulness. Our hearts are deceitful. We like to think we're good people but we're really not. And you hear this today how we're made in the image of God and God made everything good. Therefore, we must be good. All this excludes the fall of man. All God did in the garden was simply showed man what would happen if man was given a choice between God and a piece of fruit.
As Michelangelo stated:
At the same time we should be praying that God who called us out of darkness will bend our wills ever more to His glorious light. There is no reason Christians should sin. Christ in His humanity showed us we could live a perfect life. Yet we sin. We grieve and quench the Spirit rather then be led by the Spirit as our Lord was. God gives us manna, the bread of the angels, but we want quail. But God is faithful and understanding as He slowly removes the sin from our lives.
Non-believers cannot understand the deceitfulness of their hearts. Christians sometime misses this same point as well. We are constantly warned to be on guard.
Grace and peace to you in your fight Daniel.
No small wonder when the god of this world constantly holds up as the paragon of everything 'good' in humanity..."follow your heart".
"Christians sometime misses this same point as well."
Because faith does indeed come by hearing.Because deep in the unknowable heart people will trust the most what they hear the most.Wether they know it or not.
"We are constantly warned to be on guard."
Indeed we are but how many are inclined to examine EVERYTHING they hear? To hold captive thoughts and imaginations,to turn them over,thoroughly inspect and evaluate them as to wether they honour God or not? Whilst all the while our own deceitfull heart whispers that all these thoughts 'you own' to shame and burn our consciences.To cause us to hide within ourselves.Yet all things are open and naked to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.In the middle of that terrifying 'hiding yet naked before God' stands Jesus Christ.
Thankyou both for your responses,you need not know the details but you did more of a service than you know toward me right now.A wonderful moment! Praise God!
Good point, Daniel, and it needs to be stressed. I was confused by some verses in Ecc years ago and a wise person cleared it up for me. Hopefully, your post will do the same for others.
And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" And Jesus said to him, "Truly I say to you, TODAY you shall be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23:43
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