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Pope Francis: The end of ‘fortress Catholicism’?
The Washington Post ^ | August 1, 2013 | John Gehring

Posted on 08/03/2013 2:47:42 PM PDT by ebb tide

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To: ebb tide
Yeah, the progressives misunderstand Pope Francis; they think he's saying that God is OK with their sinfulness. Actually, the Pope teaches that God loves everyone, even sinners, but liberals close their ears when the Pope says that even though God loves us, in order to be with Him fully, we have to turn away from that sinfulness.

They're excited because they think Pope Francis is the 'nice guy', compared to that Big Meanie, Pope Benedict. They will be disappointed, then they'll start beating up on Pope Francis, too.

51 posted on 08/03/2013 8:21:32 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: Talisker; ebb tide
Hey, I don't really care what you do. But instead of being a CINO, why don't you find your integrity and just accept that you're a Protestant. Because the issue is extremely simple - obedience. Catholics are obedient, period. And to strip out the Pope and claim to be a Catholic is the very definition of hypocrity.

Would you have given this same advice to a Roman Catholic under Pope Alexander VI? Would you have commanded Cardinal della Rovere to do the same?

52 posted on 08/03/2013 9:03:27 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: RetiredTexasVet

Is he peddling “The One World Religion”


Sure sounds like it, but coming from a news media its hard to tell.


53 posted on 08/04/2013 4:51:21 AM PDT by ravenwolf
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To: ebb tide

The Catechism doesn’t say anything about ordaining homosexuals, but it does say something along the lines that Muslims worship the same God as Catholics and that we should esteem them.

That right there is Vatican II speaking to you.

I’m totally with you ebb. But part of what this Pope (which is not much different than JPII and Benedict) says and does is *directly* related to Vatican II. Vatican II brought false ecumenism.

This is why I sit here scratching my head trying to reconcile Vatican II with pre-Vatican II teachings. The Muslim faith was NEVER esteemed. It was considered false and diabolical. How any Catholic can sit here and say Church teaching has not changed on this is beyond me.


54 posted on 08/04/2013 5:26:43 AM PDT by piusv
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To: Old Yeller
Wow! Catholics should study the Bible, and let God's word instruct you. But then you wouldn't remain Catholic for long if you did.

Sure you would, because NOTHING the Church teaches is against God's Word.

55 posted on 08/04/2013 10:04:34 AM PDT by SuziQ
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To: Jeff Chandler; Alas Babylon!; Mrs. Don-o; FR_addict; ebb tide; boatbums

To all of you up in arms, I understand. I finally left the Catholic Church over similiar issues. Not because I “rejected” Catholicism, and not because I “hate” Catholicism, and not because I “don’t understand” Catholicism. But because I do, indeed, understand Catholicism, at least as well as you all do (and judging from some of your responses, a whole lot more).

But here’s the deal: it doesn’t matter what I think, and it doesn’t matter what you think.

What matters is what the Church teaches. And the Church teaches that it holds the authority to decide the nature of your questions, the extent of your dissent, and the answers to your questions and dissent you may have. That’s not me talking - that’s the Church.

And as I’ve pointed out before, the Pope is not limited to certain times and offices for your obedience to him. You like to argue about the limitations of his infallibility - you’re missing my point. My point is that it doesn’t matter if he’s infallible - he’s the Pope, and you’re not. What he says, goes. You question him to the extent the Church allows you to question him, and that’s it. And you accept the answers the Church - and the Pope directly - gives you about what he said, and what he meant.

According to the Church, being a Catholic is being in a state of obedience and learning - not teaching and opinionating. And serious restrictions apply to the latter, and serious requirements to the former. That’s why I’m not a Catholic - I simply realized that I do not accept those limitations being placed upon my own search for God. Sure, it was a lot of the answers the Church gave that I disagreed with, but that’s not why I left. I left because I couldn’t stay, because staying meant violating the obedience requirements of the Church.

But everywhere I see Catholics violating those obedience requirements - remember, obedience in thought, as well as belief - and claiming to be Catholics, and claiming to “defend” the Church to me as they violate its core tenants right in front of me.

This last message from the Pope is a perfect example - he directly taught for Catholics to “integrate” homosexuals into society. At the very least, that means not loathing them. But you know, the Pope might actually mean accepting them as equals and even loving them, and dropping any bias against them in your mind, heart and soul. I don’t think such an interpretation is wildly off the mark, here.

Yet instantly, the Pope that Catholics honor as the vicar of Christ himself, the difference between Protestants and Catholics, is just some guy with an opinion they don’t have to give two cents about. Or that can be compared to murderous Popes fo the past (and by the way, the Church - not me - teaches that yes, indeed, if you lived during the time of those murderous Popes, your duty was to honor and obey them).

You think your hypocrisy goes unnoticed, but I’m telling you, it doesn’t. And I’m not the only one who finds this issue extraordinarily serious - it’s a huge Catholic issue that even Benedict commented on. Yet those who dismiss their own hypocrisy - or is it heresy? - are the first to question my motives or learning, or even call me a heretic. Whatever. Kicking over the table is a common tactic of scoundrels.

But the Church hasn’t changed its teachings. So what is a Catholic who doesn’t follow Catholicism? I mean, if there are enough of them, and they all agree that what they are doing is acceptable - is it?

That’s the kind of religio-democratic communitarian nonsense that was being offered to me as the alternative to obeying the clear obedience teachings of the Church itself. And that’s why I left, and never looked back. I disagree with the Church, but I respect it. It is what it is, and it does enormous good and sustains millions of deeply good and spiritual people despite all its propblems.

But I have no stomach for CINO waffle weasels with hidden agendas, especially concerning my relationship with God.


56 posted on 08/04/2013 4:44:21 PM PDT by Talisker (One who commands, must obey.)
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To: Talisker; Jeff Chandler; Alas Babylon!; FR_addict; ebb tide; boatbums
Dear Talisker --

I am trying to absorb your points attentively and accurately, so if I in some way fall short, or some other way exceed the mark, please correct me and I will do better in the next volley. But I do think I have something to add here which may be, if not balanced, then perhaps balancing to your own valuable remarks.

The fact that Pope Francis is the 266th pope, means that he has 265 predecessors whose authoritative teachings on matters of faith and morals he cannot repudiate. In other words,the longer the line of spiritual pedigree, the less leeway a pope would have to come up with some theological novelty. He has less "freedom," in that sense, than any monarch on earth.

And that's the way it should be. We don't need a pope to be a brilliant innovator, or, still less, a "religious genius". We have a pope to conserve and transmit the Faith of Our Lord Jesus Christ that comes to us from the Apostles.

You are quite right that the Pope's authority doesn't just consists of special Gothic-letting-and-gold-leaf Ex Cathedra StatementsTM. His Petrine ministry of, as Our Lord said, "strengthening the brethren", means confirming and upholding the whole Ordinary Magisterium: the Scriptures above all, the Creeds, the Councils, the Liturgy, the teachings of the Fathers and Doctors and mystics, and what he learned at his mother's knee: whole patrimony.

This is the "Hermeneutic of Continuity". It's huge. Vast. Historically intricate. Internally coherent. It goes way beyond just papal monarchy.

In this sense, you are hitting the nail just a tad off-center when you say that "the Pope teaches; we obey." The true axiom would be: Christ teaches us through the Church; and we, from the Pope to the little church-mouse, obey.

The Pope's duty of obedience is no less than that of the Christifideles laici.

I hope my remarks here will not be taken as an excursion over to the Cafeteria Side Dish Buffet. God knows I respect the Pope and obey his authority --- and if I ever fail to do so, may somebody pull me aside, get their elbows in my ribs and set me straight.

But the Pope is NOT a limitless autocrat and NOT an all-purpose oracle. Pope Francis would be the first to tell you that.

He and Benedict would tell you stereo-style, in both ears.

57 posted on 08/04/2013 5:36:47 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Point of clarification, I hope.)
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To: RetiredTexasVet; Mrs. Don-o

nothing of the sort. The doctrine is the same, it’s just that the face is friendlier...


58 posted on 08/05/2013 7:40:45 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: ebb tide; Talisker

Do actually read what the Pope said — he never said anything about permitting those who indulge in homosexual activities as priests and he did not say to respect the teachings and values of Islam — stop paraphrasing.


59 posted on 08/05/2013 7:43:52 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Old Yeller
Wrong, reading the Bible makes you even more aware of the facts that Christ's teachings are only lived through in orthodoxy

What does Jesus say saves us?


Jesus says that if you endure to the end you get salvation, that if you helped your fellow man you inherit the kingdom of God (you get salvation) --> note these are HIS own words


60 posted on 08/05/2013 7:46:30 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Cronos

I wasn’t paraphrasing him; I quoted him verbatim. Did you actually read my posts?


61 posted on 08/05/2013 5:47:35 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

I did read your posts and you were paraphrasing in “respect the teachings and values of Islam “ — what was said was a message TO Moslems at the end of Ramzan asking “to respect each other’s religions” — that was the exact wording, not “teachings and values”


62 posted on 08/05/2013 10:37:28 PM PDT by Cronos
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