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Apostasy in America: The Strange but Just Judgment of God
Renew America ^ | August 5, 2013 | Linda Kimball

Posted on 08/05/2013 3:40:03 AM PDT by spirited irish

The age that saw the advent of Jesus Christ was a dark age rich in nature religions, superstitions, open intercourse with demons as well as philosophical and ethical systems encompassing the animism, sex worship and human sacrifice of the vast majority of the world to the Atomism (physical materialism) and pantheist Stoicism (spiritual materialism) of Greek nature sages, the Roman pantheon of deities and the Greek mystery religions. The darkness of sin was everywhere.

Into this putrid cesspool of unfettered libido and perverted revelation came the "light that shines in darkness" (Isaiah 9:2; John 1:5), the Son of God, fully man, fully God; the supernatural Source of life, being, personality, mind, and salvation (John 14:6) ; the self-consistent, unchanging standard of goodness, order, truth, wisdom, and knowledge (James 1:16-18; Rom. 3:4; Num. 23:19; Ezek. 24:14); the supernatural Creator-God Who from the beginning reveals Himself to mankind through His living Word, the Word by which He created all things ex nihilo (Gen. 1; Ps. 19; John 1:1-5; Col. 1:16); and Who through His Gospel of God's Grace, miraculous powers, death and resurrection cut through the intricate matrix of nature systems and across the whole web of fatalism, despair and fear of death to draw men unto Him.

In keeping with His Gospel, our Lord not only announced it but foretold the trials and tribulations that would encompass His followers.

The most lethal in our age is the spirit of apostasy that dresses evolutionary materialist and spiritually pantheist nature religions in Christian clothing in an attempt to overhaul the Christian faith.

In "Apostasy in America: An Overview of Warning Signs in Our Time," Dr. Peter Jones, Professor of Theology at Westminster Theological Seminary in California writes that in order for the,

"...pagan lie to succeed, it needs to look as much like the truth as it can. Hence the imperious necessity in the malevolent eschatology of spiritual darkness for the appearance of a new hybrid – 'Christian' paganism." (Jesus and the Den of Thieves, SCP Journal, Vol. 20:3-4, 1996, p. 15)

The malevolent spirit of apostasy began its work within modern "Christian" change-agents – false prophets, false messiahs, false apostles, and other workers of deceit who, though transformed into ministers of righteousness (2 Cor. 11:13-15), were in reality the intellectual heirs of a way of thinking that from its inception during the Renaissance has by its' nature been a counter-cultural, anti-tradition rebellion against the supernatural Triune God and Christian theism (Matthew 7:15-23). Like authentic Christianity, it has from the start been a movement of spirit having its taproot and energy in Satan, the father of lies, defiance, accommodation, change, rebellion, heresy, schism, and apostasy.

In his two books, "The Occult Underground: The Dawn of the New Age" and "The Occult Establishment," historian James Webb chronicles the rise of what he calls an occult intelligentsia as it emerged out of the Renaissance. Webb sees the Renaissance as a spiritually traumatic time in which the spiritual roots of many people at the highest levels of society were shaken free of Christianity. As a result, numerous Churchmen and Christian humanists eagerly embraced the materialist/pantheist occult traditions – Hermeticism, Theosophy, Buddhism, reincarnation, karma, esoteric Cabbalism, Mystery Religions, alchemy, neo-Platonism, and Gnosticism – sweeping into Christendom at that time.

"The Occult Underground" was originally called "The Flight from Reason" because Christians had turned back to nature religions and occultism – the science of magic. Webb's main point is that since the Renaissance, a powerfully influential occult spiritual community existing at the highest levels of Church, government and society has been both the intelligentsia and the real powers behind what has been variously called the Progressive Underground, the Anti-Establishment, and the Anti-Tradition Counter Culture, the aim of which is twofold: first, the total destruction of the Old Order based on Christianity and second, the creation of a socialistic kingdom of heaven (New World Order) here on earth which is to rise out of the smoldering ashes of the Old Order.

In the religious order the spirit of apostasy intends to fully possess the Christian faith and through revolutionary change-agent theologians and priests transform it completely:

"The natural parents of modern unbelief turn out to have been the guardians of belief." Many thinking people came at last to realize, "that it was religion, not science or social change that gave birth to unbelief. Having made God more and more like man....the shapers of religion made it feasible to abandon God, to simply believe in man." (American Babylon, Richard John Neuhaus, p. 95)

Between 1925 and 1937, Archbishop Fulton Sheen published 36 volumes dealing with the decadence of western society as the result of its apostasy from the Triune God and its' philosophical and Biblical-based foundations in favor of a new pagan Gnosticism with its dream of an earthly paradise, a kingdom of an immanent (pantheist) god-force built by god-men here on earth. Thus said Sheen, modern atheism was not only an esoteric philosophy,

"... preached by learned professors at Harvard and Yale; it was a new messianism emanating from Moscow and threatening to cover the face of the earth." (Great Catholic Books Newsletter; Volume II, Number 2, Fulton J. Sheen Issue)

Pointing to modern evolutionary thinking as the primary doctrine underlying modern atheism, a synthesis of all heresies called Modernism by Pope Pius in his 1907 encyclical "Pascendi Dominici Gregis," Sheen wrote:

"Modern philosophy has seen the birth of a new nation of God...It is God in evolution. God 'is' not. He 'becomes.' In the beginning was not the Lord, but in the beginning was 'Movement.' From this movement God is born by successive creations. As the world progresses, He progresses; as the world acquires perfection, He acquires perfection. (Moreover) man is a necessary step in the evolution of God. Just as man came from the beast, God will come from man..." (ibid)

Communism: Effect of Judgment

Regarding the murderous cult of Communism, Sheen argues that it is the price of our sins. Communism, the "apocalypse of violence" began in the heart of Christendom; it emerged from rebellion against the supernatural Triune God and true Christian theism. Its philosophy is German and it is both an effect and a judgment on Western civilization,

"... its sociology French, its economics English. Karl Marx, its founder, patched the dialectics of Hegel on to the materialism of Feuerbach, to the sociology of Proudhon, to the economic problems born of liberalism, and out of it came the new gospel which has now turned upon its creators to torment them for the past. (Communism and the Conscience of the West, New York, 1948, pg. 52)

"...it was born of our unfulfilled Christian duties, our abandonment of the Father's House in favor of materialism; a judgment because it reveals how wrong has been our thinking, how evil have been our deeds." (Great Catholic Books Newsletter; Volume II, Number 2, Fulton J. Sheen Issue)

Rise of Occult Pagan Spirituality

Ultimately, Marxist Communism's dialectical materialism was unappealing both to Russian and Western and American civilization, so whereas occult spiritual pantheism had previously flowed quietly beneath atheist-materialist-communism and neo-pagan Nazism during the twentieth century, today that order is quickly reversing. From positions of great power within the whole Church, seminaries, global interfaith movements, select salons, secret societies and the U.N., occult spiritual pantheists are brazenly striding onto the world-stage in full public view while materialism slowly fades to black.

Years ago, long-time Vatican observer Malachi Martin (1921-1999) described a situation in which the Curia is divided between 'progressive' (evolutionary pantheists) and 'traditionalists;' between adherents of evolutionary conceptions such as Teilhard de Chardin's Hermetic, quasi-Hindu idea, abortion, women and 'gay' priests, and openness to non-Christian nature religions and philosophies and those who oppose such an agenda. According to Martin, 'progressives' hold all the important positions of power, and so are able to bring about a major revolution that if unchecked will constitute,

"....one of the most spectacular expressions of apostasy in the modern era, dressed up in all the traditional robes and much of the terminology of Christianity but denying its essence." (ibid, Jesus and the Den of Thieves, SCP Journal, Jones, p. 17)

As for America's evangelical Protestant Church, the devilish spirit of apostasy has for many years been entering through the open door of accommodation. Decades ago Francis Schaeffer perceived this devilish spirit already at work amongst evangelical Protestants. In "The Great Evangelical Disaster" he wrote:

"Accommodation, accommodation. How the mindset of accommodation grows and expands...For the evangelical accommodation to the world of our age represents the removal of the last barrier against the breakdown of our culture. And with the final removal of this barrier will come social chaos and the rise of authoritarianism in some form to restore order." (p. 401)

Schaeffer rebuked evangelical compromisers, warning them that to accommodate,

"...to the world spirit about us in our age is the most gross form of worldliness in the proper definition of the word." (ibid)

In "Accommodating the Culture," Pastor Larry DeBruyn writes that the Apostle John warns against compromise, saying that whoever accommodates their Christian faith with the reigning culture's system is guilty of adultery via the lust of the eyes (materialism), the lust of the flesh (eroticism) and the pride of life (egoism):

"Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." (James 4:4)

Despite whatever feel-good pop rock musical ecstasy and other sensory feel-good passions might be "ginned up" during anti-traditional worship celebrations in compromised churches said DeBruyn, adulterated worship:

"... does not love the Father – let it be repeated, does NOT love the Father! (1 John 2:15-17). James tells us that the Christians' snuggling-up with the pagan culture (And there's no question that we've become a pagan nation.) is hostility toward God. James 4:4." (Accommodating the Culture, DeBruyn, Herescope, March 21, 2013)

Accommodation to the world spirit is hostility toward God thus it brings collapse, which is why the compromising evangelical church is on the verge "within ten years – of a major collapse...." warned Michael Spencer in "The Coming Evangelical Collapse."

Collapse will follow the deterioration of the accommodating mainline Protestant world,

"...and that will fundamentally alter the religious and cultural environment in the West. I believe this evangelical collapse will happen with astonishing statistical speed; that within two generations of where we are now evangelicalism will be a house deserted of half its current occupants, leaving in its wake nothing that can revitalize evangelicals to their former "glory."

"The response of evangelicals to this new environment will be a revisiting of the same rhetoric and reactions we've seen since the beginnings of the current culture war in the 1980s. The difference will be that millions of evangelicals will quit: quit their churches, quit their adherence to evangelical distinctives and quit resisting the rising tide of the culture." (internetmonk.com)

The spirit of apostasy is also entering the Church through American New Testament scholarship. Dr. Jones reports that "new" scholarship is introducing apostasy into the Church's scriptures, and this is just one warning sign among very many others pointing to the coming of age of pagan spirituality dressed in Christian terminology but denying its essence, its' living waters.

Just as the Curia is divided, Dr. Albert Mohler, President of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, reports a growing chasm in the evangelical church. In his book, "The Disappearance of God" he reports that on one side are faithful traditionalists. On the other, the anti-traditional Emergent and self-autonomous contemporary church, which defines itself over and against Traditionalism, or Authentic Christianity.

The contemporary church is strongly attracted to the counter-cultural, anti-tradition modernist kind of Christianity proposed by the Emerging Church, whose leaders include Brian McLaren, Bill Hybels, Rick Warren, and the pantheist Rob Bell. As the spirit of anti-tradition, defiance, change, heresy and apostasy energizes the Emergent Church, and the contemporary mind embraces its' pseudo-theology it is therefore uncomfortable with fundamental doctrine, said Mohler. It prefers "change" "progress" "novelty" "tolerance" "inclusion" and "feelings," especially whatever "feels good." It rejects rules and discipline and wants humanistic feel-good messages, deeds rather than creeds, and diversionary entertainment rather than expository sermons and sound teaching. Since its' deity is a dead-god of "all-inclusive love" it never speaks of wrath and judgment, hence hell, sin, and repentance are not just unwelcome, but are in fact intolerable to the self-autonomous contemporary mind.

Dr. Mohler warns Christians within apostatizing churches that Authentic Christianity is very narrowly defined. All Christians across a vast denominational range who hold fast to the fundamental doctrines are Authentic Christians while all who do not are not by definition Christian. Fundamental doctrines are:

"The Trinity (including full deity and humanity of Jesus Christ); the authenticity of Scripture (the Revealed Word of God); the Incarnation (death, burial, resurrection); justification by faith; sin (humanities willful revolt against God the Father); the traditional doctrine of Hell, and the absolute sovereignty of God the Father."

It is characteristic of our darkening age that relatively few churches vigorously engage in actively teaching the fundamental doctrines as well as fulfilling the biblical mandate. (2 Tim. 4:3, Rev. 20: 1-3) The biblical mandate where workers of deceit are concerned is twofold:

1. Do not to hold to any erroneous doctrine or concept. Because faithful Christians cannot protect themselves from false teachings unless the evils surrounding them are exposed they are to actively contend for the faith once given and by way of apologetics protect the Church from contagion by vigorously exposing the origins, logical fallacies, double-thinking, deceptions, delusions, errors, and tactics of the enemies of Christ.

2. We are to have compassion and charity for those who are enmeshed in false teachings with the primary objective of winning souls for whom Jesus Christ died.

Archbishop Sheen summarized the meaning of the biblical mandate when he argued that just as faithful Christians cannot protect themselves from false teachings unless the evils surrounding them are exposed, neither can those who are enmeshed in them be saved unless their disease is made known to them. Only when their disease is made known to them can they finally be converted to Jesus Christ. (Religion without God, 1928; Old Errors and New Labels, 1931; Moods and Truths, 1932)

Burgeoning Cults: Effect of Judgment

In the updated version of Dr. Walter Martin's "The Kingdom of the Cults," we read that in our own age, the kingdom of cults,

"....stretches throughout the world, its membership in the millions, with over seventeen million cult members in the United States alone." Cults are progressing at an alarming rate and speed, and many utilize the methods of Christianity and of New Testament propagation to woo, "converts from professional Christian fellowships – Protestant as well as Roman Catholic." (p. 23, 483)

Of the increasing stable of cults and false teachings analyzed in Martin's book are Jehovah's Witness, Christian Science, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, Spiritism, the Theosophical Society, Baha'i, Unitarian Universalism, Scientology, Eastern Religions, the New Age cult, Islam, Cults on the World Mission Field, Cult Evangelism, and the Jesus of the cults.

As with Communism, the kingdom of cults is the result of our sin, of our unfulfilled Christian duties and is therefore both an effect and a judgment on the Western and American Church and civilization. Most churches today, if not dead are apostate or lethargic and woefully delinquent, thus while the average Christian knows what he believes, he is unable to articulate why he believes it, does not know why he ought to be obedient to it, nor can he protect himself and his children against false teachings such as evolution:

"The clergy is largely at fault in this respect because they do not always emphasize the teaching ministry of the pulpit, but rather settle for an evangelistic emphasis with very little doctrinal depth..." (The Kingdom of the Cults, Ravi Zacharias, General Editor, p. 483)

Strange but Just Judgment

Having left unfulfilled its' Christian duties, America's church is divided against itself and fallen into lethargy and apostasy, hence we see the strange yet just judgment of God upon the Christian church in that He is allowing,

"..the forces of darkness to succeed with the methods of light while denying the source of light and life, the Gospel of Jesus Christ." (ibid, p. 483)

Our age is an age of self-worship and defiance against God issuing into accommodation, heresy, open apostasy and occult oppression. Space does not allow but for passing reference to the growing network of syncretic interfaith movements spreading like wildfire into unsuspecting evangelical and Catholic churches. Nor does it allow for much to be said about the rapid infiltration into the evangelical church of occult psycho-spiritual technologies dressed in Christian terminology that open Christians up to dark forces and demonic influence and oppression, or of the growing network of powerful global agencies espousing syncretic pagan spirituality.

The malevolent spirit of apostasy began its work right in the heart of Christendom, which today is a vast sea of darkness punctuated here and there by small shining lights. But today it is the case that most of the leadership of apostasy comes from post-Christian America, and this is why so very many churches over and across the entire denominational spectrum are becoming like cisterns without living water, yet people attending such places cannot see this and no longer know what they have lost,

"..... much less that they themselves are lost....The landscape is changing, the skies are darkening – and this is something we know with a... spiritual sense, a spiritual urgency." (Albert Mohler, The Disappearance of God, p. 158)


TOPICS: Apologetics; Moral Issues; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: apostasy; judgment; kimball; lindakimball

1 posted on 08/05/2013 3:40:03 AM PDT by spirited irish
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To: TXnMA; betty boop; MHGinTN; marron; Alamo-Girl; xzins

ping


2 posted on 08/05/2013 3:41:22 AM PDT by spirited irish
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To: spirited irish

Good grief!


3 posted on 08/05/2013 4:01:20 AM PDT by Rich21IE
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To: spirited irish

A very sober word for today’s church and our nation. Few will head the warning, however. “Without me you can do nothing,” Jesus stated. In evangelical churches “getting saved” is as far as most of them go. There are “seekers” - they are looking for answers but Jesus is just one of the many choices for them. Some will find the Truth but most will just keep looking. Next, are followers of Christ - they hang on for awhile till they begin to feel the nails of the cross of the surrendered or exchanged life that Christ calls all true believer to. So they get offended at Jesus because they thought he was going to make them “successful” or just couldn’t understand why he allowed their spouse to leave them or their child to die, or to lose their job or a hundred other things that they thought Jesus shouldn’t have allowed them to suffer. Just like in Jesus’ day many stopped “following” after he told them, “… unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no part with me.” Finally, there are disciple. These are people that have found their life in Christ. It doesn’t matter what happens to them - they are sold out 100% for Christ. They have given up finding fulfillment in this life and have found a fulfillment that this world cannot offer. Their joy springs from a source not of this world, i.e., God’s Holy Spirit - and the world hates them for it. Christ has flooded their hearts and they just can’t get enough of Jesus. They just can’t stop talking about him, living for him and are ready to do whatever he asks of them. They endure to the end, are ready to suffer anything for their Lord and have (important word coming) gratitude in their hearts for the privilege of knowing Christ and can’t wait for him to conform their life to match up with his through his power. The self-life is just too tempting for the rest of humanity. Fulfillment here and now is just soooo attractive. They can all be heard singing, “I did it my way,” with Frank Sinatra and they will all share the same eternal destiny as Frank. Wake up America! Your hour of trial is upon you. “If the righteous scarcely be saved where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?” Jesus still stands at the door of your heart, knocking, waiting to be invited in. The time for accepting this truth is growing very short. Please consider carefully what you will do with the Son of God.


4 posted on 08/05/2013 4:38:53 AM PDT by Lake Living
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To: spirited irish
I don't know who this person is who wrote this article, but unless I totally misunderstood, then I am hearing her say that "evangelical" is heresy.

I think of myself as an "evangelical" Christian..... so was taken aback and read on.

But the definition (according to Webster's) of evangelical is as follows....

1: of, relating to, or being in agreement with the Christian gospel especially as it is presented in the four Gospels

2: Protestant

3: emphasizing salvation by faith in the atoning death of Jesus Christ through personal conversion, the authority of Scripture, and the importance of preaching as contrasted with ritual.

According to the above definition, "evangelical" seems to follow ALL that she stated was sound practice except for #2 which says "protestant" and the little part of #3 that says "importance of preaching as contrasted with ritual".

Could this mean that the author is NOT Protestant, insists on a ritual (such as a Mass)to be the only true form of worship) and as such deems all Protestants as heretics?

5 posted on 08/05/2013 4:50:58 AM PDT by Apple Pan Dowdy (... as American as Apple Pie)
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To: Lake Living
"In evangelical churches “getting saved” is as far as most of them go."

Sounds to me like you have never visited an evangelical church. I am an evangelical Christian and my church teaches that getting saved is only the first step in leading a life immersed in the all encompassing Trinity (three persons of our One God)... true fellowship with God- the Holy Spirit as He indwell us, worship of God-the Father, and understanding of the saving grace of what God-the Son (Jesus Christ) did for us. After "being saved" we then STUDY the scriptures (thus in my church all the sermons are tightly enmeshed in study of the scriptures, word for word, precept upon precept)to learn how to lead a more Godly life following Christ's example and how to carry His good news (the Gospel) to the world.

It is not my intention to start an argument with you about your choice of religion. If your church is doing the above, then you are in a sound Christian church. I was just dismayed to hear that you think something else is going on in all Evangelical churches.

6 posted on 08/05/2013 5:07:34 AM PDT by Apple Pan Dowdy (... as American as Apple Pie)
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To: spirited irish

Look for America to become a new missionary field for the Christians coming from the “global south” nations.


7 posted on 08/05/2013 5:07:47 AM PDT by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: Apple Pan Dowdy
I don't know who this person is who wrote this article, but unless I totally misunderstood, then I am hearing her say that "evangelical" is heresy.

Well the article is all over the place, to be ironic, pointing fingers and acting pharisaical means you are not truly saved either, so let the author be warned. I have fenced with many Catholics, some clearly biblically illiterate and who believe in the doctrine of demons, but where they go after they die, well that's up to G*d. Ultimately far too many Christians worry about what their neighbor is doing for salvation instead of with fear and trembling thinking about their own. If someone believes Mary is the Mother of God, in transubstantiation, the Pope's interpretation is inerrant, really in the scheme of things means zero to me. We can debate about such things but not divide.

Some of the other points, including the observations by one of my favorite theologians Fulton Sheen are spot on and very relevant today. From Rick Warren to Joel Oesteen, there is a growing apostasy, a doctrine of demons, that the gospel is a cosmic vending machine, that ask you shall be given healing 100% of the time, financial success, perfect peace with no tribulations..etc, etc. I have personally witnessed many of these types, people coming out of bad situations, drug addictions, divorce, losing someone close to them. They are on fire for the Lord, go to church, bible study, tithe, talk the talk, act pious and then,.......further calamity hits and they turn on God, they fall away sometimes never to come back. They are at the Master's table for what the Master has for them, not for the company of eating with him. A said faith instead of a real faith. Why sadly MOST people living today are going to hell, they don't really love God, they love sin and cry out when the consequences of sin are more than they can bear. Thankfully God gives chance after chance UNTIL we either blaspheme the Holy Spirit or we take our last breath, then it is too late.

8 posted on 08/05/2013 5:39:32 AM PDT by pburgh01
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To: spirited irish

I think Kimbal’s article makes some valid points, but nothing that hasn’t been said before many times over.

Her article is also unnecessarily academically pretentious in trying to tie the general apostacy of today with all kinds of non-Christian movements and ideas of the past.

The truth is false teaching and accommodation to the world has been a problem since the 1st century. These problems will never go away until Jesus returns and they just reappear under new names and guises.

The answer is teaching Christians sound, historical, Biblical doctrine, and, how to read and study the Bible with sound principles of Biblical interpretation, i.e. context of the passage, continuity of a teaching with the entire Bible, a general understanding the original languages used (Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, etc.), historical context of when the passage was written, who was the audience the passage was directed to, and what kind of literature the passage belongs to (narrative, poetry, letter, parable, allegory, etc.).

I do agree that there is an overall move on American Christianity away from the importance of reading and studying the Bible, that doctrine is “boring” and not all that important. Emotionalism also seems to be a prominent element of the “preaching” and “worship” of many churches today.

There has also been this idea of learning to “hear the voice of God” for oneself with the idea that you, the individual, can learn how to “hear” God’s voice and receive personalized messages from God for you. This is part, I think, of the trivializing of the value of studying the Bible as God’s revealed word as the sole written source of truth from God to mankind. The Bible is now just one of many “sources” of God’s “truth”. A sort of renewed “mysticism”. I think this idea of learning to “hear” God’s voice is un-Biblical and dangerous.

There is also a renewed and repackaged extreme Calvinism on the rise which is caused strife and division within the church. This is under the guise of the absolute “sovereignty” of God, which under Calvinism means that no one has the capacity to respond to God’s love and mercy - in fact, they teach that it is literally impossible for sinful humanity to respond to God’s love, and therefore God must supernaturally intervene in certain select human beings lives and force them to accept Christ as Savior. This is the Calvinist’s view of predestination - that God has preordained all who will believe in Christ and those who won’t - even babies who die face the fact that some of them will go to hell and some will go to heaven, based on God’s sovereign choice.

This renewed Calvinism also teaches that every single act or event, whether good or evil, has been preordained of God. Even the sins you commit were preordained for you to commit by God’s sovereign choice. Every act of bravery or cowardice, love or hate was foreordained.

I think this type of thinking is also dangerous to the Gospel as well.


9 posted on 08/05/2013 6:02:42 AM PDT by rusty schucklefurd
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To: pburgh01
"Well the article is all over the place, to be ironic, pointing fingers and acting pharisaical..."

Very good point and so true.

Rather than criticizing someone's for of worship (whether it is Protestant, Catholic, ritualistic, informal, choir with organ, quartet with guitars, or even no music , it makes more sense to look at one's personal statement of faith.... and see if it contains the essentials:
- One God, consisting of the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit)
- Saved by Grace alone (we are all sinners and unable to save ourselves) in the belief that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, Crucified, risen, in order to offer atonement in our behalf
- The day will come when we will be judged by God, Jesus will return, bodily and visibly to receive His people to Himself
- Bible is the written word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit and without error in the original manuscripts, infallible and authoritative
(hope I didn't leave any out)

10 posted on 08/05/2013 6:29:22 AM PDT by Apple Pan Dowdy (... as American as Apple Pie)
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To: spirited irish

“...the Emerging Church, whose leaders include Brian McLaren, Bill Hybels, Rick Warren, and the pantheist Rob Bell.”

Hmmm, this shows ignorance of “Emergent” church leadership, either wilful or not. While Brian McLaren and Rob Bell have always identified themselves as “Emergent,” Rick Warren and Bill Hybels have never been a part of that clique, as both have theologically very conservative beliefs—and are not self-consciously post-modern (which defines the Emergents).

McLaren and Bell have recently shown themselves allied with the (so called) “evangelical” Left—defined by “Sojourners” Jim Wallis—in supporting homosexual “marriage,” but not so, for Warren and Hybels.

This author doesn’t show much familiarity with actual evangelicalism.


11 posted on 08/05/2013 6:34:47 AM PDT by AnalogReigns (because the real world is not digital...)
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To: Apple Pan Dowdy

I don’t know who this person is who wrote this article, but unless I totally misunderstood, then I am hearing her say that “evangelical” is heresy.


I understood very little, but she seems to be building her opinion around other writers opinions which much i do agree with, but i believe the Bible is the only authority.


12 posted on 08/05/2013 6:39:41 AM PDT by ravenwolf
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To: Biggirl

We The People do so need such a work among us. Sadly, I now believe this nation is a wasteland where evil struts and the lie is the hallmark of power. We are, I believe, at the end times. America as a nation is not going to be redeemed. But Christians must remain active, to give those who will awaken a chance to faithe in Him for a little season, before the close of the age.


13 posted on 08/05/2013 6:46:21 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: AnalogReigns
This author doesn’t show much familiarity with actual evangelicalism.

When did lack of familiarity ever stop anyone?
14 posted on 08/05/2013 6:49:00 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: AnalogReigns

If you’re going to try to convince people that Rick Warren is somehow a conservative church leader, you’re going to have a tough sell. Just sayin.


15 posted on 08/05/2013 6:49:04 AM PDT by Colonel_Flagg (Army dad. And damned proud.)
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To: spirited irish

thus while the average Christian knows what he believes, he is unable to articulate why he believes it,


I think the reason people believe is because they were called to believe, we believe because of faith, if it was something we knew all about we would not have to have any faith.


Accommodation to the world spirit is hostility toward God thus it brings collapse, which is why the compromising evangelical church is on the verge “within ten years – of a major collapse..

I do not doubt that because the Bible tells us that the Great harlot and her daughters will be destroyed.


16 posted on 08/05/2013 7:02:13 AM PDT by ravenwolf
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To: ravenwolf

ping for later


17 posted on 08/05/2013 7:35:47 AM PDT by BrandtMichaels
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To: spirited irish
The author uses a lot of flowery language but doesn't even know that her heroes, Sheen and Martin, were evolutionists.

And this doesn't even come close to the irony of attacking paganism while invoking a "triune gxd."

18 posted on 08/05/2013 7:37:00 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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To: MHGinTN

I sense that a spiritual revival, like a “last call” before the end of the age though.


19 posted on 08/05/2013 7:48:25 AM PDT by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: Biggirl

Jesus gave a huge hint that such would happen, with the story of the invited guests from the highways and byways. Included in that hint was a warning to those ‘without the prescribed wedding garments’. I have no doubt that a last minute invitation will go out, but I am afraid that revival will not stir America back to a fear of the Lord. We have gone too far down the evil pathways, with wholesale slaughter of the alive unborn and integrating sexual degeneracy into the fabric of the society. Couple those services to evil with the embrace of a continuous liar and his regime of professional liars and we have the perfect recipe for being rejected by God.


20 posted on 08/05/2013 7:56:38 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: MHGinTN

Even so, preach the Gospel, “in season and out.”


21 posted on 08/05/2013 8:00:22 AM PDT by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: Apple Pan Dowdy
I think the author is rc, but his point was across all denominations we are seeing apostasy. It seems he thinks the rc church has further to go before falling into the abyss but that we are all headed into that darkness. We have lost the knowledge of both law and gospel. We accept forgiveness with out acknowledging sin. We look to God for mercy without acknowledging his call to holiness and great justice. I am Lutheran, but think he has provided valuable insights that all Christians should heed.
22 posted on 08/05/2013 8:34:43 AM PDT by cotton
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To: Lake Living

Thank-you for a well-reasoned, Biblically informed response. Most who have responded seem more interested in protecting “something” by attacking the author. How very sad and terrible.


23 posted on 08/05/2013 9:19:26 AM PDT by spirited irish
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To: Colonel_Flagg

“If you’re going to try to convince people that Rick Warren is somehow a conservative church leader, you’re going to have a tough sell.”

Warren accepts and preaches the supreme, infallible, authority of scripture, and the literal truths of the creeds, such as the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Jesus, the supernatural miracles of scripture, the fully divine and fully human natures of Christ, the holy trinity, the physical return of Jesus at the 2nd Coming, rejects homosexual practice.... and etc. Such things DEFINE theological conservatism (and orthodox Christianity, actually). Liberal churchmen reject ALL of the above...

Other than a contemporary worship style, and music, how exactly is Rick Warren THEOLOGICALLY liberal?

{Theological conservatism may, or may not, bring about conservative politics—depends a lot on how well informed a given Christian leader may be about politics. A lot of what is seen as sympathy toward liberal politics is simply a rather lame, uninformed naivete on the part of some Christian leaders. After all, if you only watched CNN....you may be politically moderate or liberal too.}

I’m not a big fan of Rick Warren. None-the-less, on any Christian theological scale, he is certainly conservative.


24 posted on 08/05/2013 12:58:43 PM PDT by AnalogReigns (because the real world is not digital...)
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To: AnalogReigns
I’m not a big fan of Rick Warren. None-the-less, on any Christian theological scale, he is certainly conservative.

The King's Way controversy alone raises my eyebrows, as do large portions of "The Purpose Driven Life", which have been discussed at length in the religion forums, and his work with the Tony Blair Faith Foundation, which takes great pains to promote all religions as equal.

Whether or not you believe the claim that "King's Way" sets God and Allah as equals, Warren signed a New York Times letter regarding the "A Common Word" movement which read, in part, as follows:

"What is common between us lies not in something marginal nor in something merely important to each. It lies, rather, in something absolutely central to both: love of God and love of neighbor. Surprisingly for many Christians, your letter considers the dual command of love to be the foundational principle not just of the Christian faith, but of Islam as well. That so much common ground exists – common ground in some of the fundamentals of faith – gives hope that undeniable differences and even the very real external pressures that bear down upon us can not overshadow the common ground upon which we stand together. That this common ground consists in love of God and of neighbor gives hope that deep cooperation between us can be a hallmark of the relations between our two communities…"

"Chrislam" is a serious issue, and the Muslim god is false. How can a Christian pastor, especially one claiming to be conservative, hold any accommodation with a faith that does not recognize the Triune God and indeed the absolute need for saving faith in Him to get to heaven? Warren may claim to hold conservative views but surely accommodation of the Muslim god and allowing the Church of Christ to stand on equal ground with other religions would not qualify as a conservative principle.

And then there's this:

http://christiannews.net/2012/11/29/rick-warren-uncertain-if-homosexual-behavior-is-sinful-says-gays-go-to-heaven/

Dr. Warren is undoubtedly a good man and he certainly talks a good game. Yet, I'm still skeptical, as are many other posters here.

25 posted on 08/05/2013 1:37:07 PM PDT by Colonel_Flagg (Army dad. And damned proud.)
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To: spirited irish

The author opens with a summary that is straightforward and Biblically factual. The fallen world was behaving in a fallen manner; the world was indeed lost in darkness and sin. Light came.

He was not the Messiah that the Jews were expecting — the conquering King come to establish his physical kingdom by overthrowing Rome, conquer Israel’s enemies, and restoring the homeland and status promised to them by the Covenant.

Instead, He was there to open the spiritual kingdom of God, in whose age we now live. The future kingdom, the physical kingdom, is indeed coming but certainly not yet upon us. Much trial and tribulation will occur before it does.

In the time leading up to the return of Jesus, there will be an abundance of false teaching. It will be everywhere. Jesus warned that the way to His kingdom — spiritual or physical — would be straight but narrow, and few would enter. Complementary teachings of Christ and His disciples are found throughout the NT, expanding on this theme and revealing that by the end of time MOST people will fall away. Scattered remnants — tattered scraps and individuals (_not_ whole denominations) will be left.

Apostasy — the end result of careful lies wrought by the Father of Lies, and disseminated by false prophets and teachers who are themselves deceived — will result in the eternal damnation of the majority of humanity.

There are only 2 ways for the _majority_ of humanity to become apostate: 1) by force or 2) by choice. Scripture makes it abundantly clear that it is through the latter means that this will happen.

Given that people have a propensity (arising from their fallen natures) to choose things that are appealing, pleasurable, self-preserving or self-serving, it isn’t much of an intellectual stretch to see that the lies the Father of Lies will put about to lead people into apostasy will be carefully constructed and present themselves as Light and Truth. If not, people won’t fall for it.

Thus, the author then moves into the body of the piece by addressing the advance of apostasy from past into present. To do this, she quite reasonably draws from a variety of quotable sources to illustrate her point. True, the author does assume the reader has some familiarity with the major ideas emerging from the Reformation and Renaissance, and with those of modernism and postmodernism and, true, the author doesn’t draw out her points with fat crayons but rather with some a bit more finer tipped. But, the reader’s lack of familiarity with these ideas or a disgruntled response to her writing style or use of language does not point to a shortfall on the part of the author as much as it does the reader.

One of her major contentions is that a particularly virulent form of apostasy is threading its way through the Church (capital “C”) as well as the church (lower case “c”). This apostasy is not new; some of its roots are ancient, others emerged in the early medieval period and still more in the Reformation. Others continue to emerge from modernism and post-modernism. All are affecting the modern church.

The author’s point was NOT a pro-catholic argument that Protestantism in general was an apostate movement that should never have happened. For those who think so, a more careful reading of the piece — accompanied by the knowledge that the author is not Roman Catholic — followed by a more humble approach to self-education on the history of the church might be warranted.

The author next addresses one particularly deceptive form of attack by the Father of Lies, one which is leading and will continue to lead to apostasy in the church. This deception is specifically targeted at the evangelic church. The author’s argument was NOT that the evangelical church itself IS evil; rather, the evangelical church has been deceived by the Father of Lies. Some evangelical churches have been more deceived than others.

Many conservative Christian thinkers are talking about this. For those who churlishly noted that this author says “nothing new”, when the message is urgent and so much of the audience is dulled by deception or pride, or both, consistent repetition is a good thing.

For those self-professing evangelicals who were offended by the author’s focus on the deception in the evangelical church, it would be good to recognize that these are times of intense spiritual warfare and the cost is high for those who allow themselves — or others — to be deceived. If you are an evangelical Christian, rather than getting your feathers ruffled and fluffing off in a cloud of offense...perhaps you might do some additional research into apostasy and the evangelical church and then turn a more humble and discerning eye toward your own church body. Be _certain_. If, indeed, your church is holding fast to Scriptural Truth then consider the warnings of this article and those of many others also writing on this topic to NOT apply to you...at least, not now. But, if your church is engaged in any of the deceived and spiritually-malformed teachings of some of the leading lights of the liberal evangelical movement...be warned. Be offended if you must — fine, whatever — but at the very least, be humble enough and discerning enough to also be warned.


26 posted on 08/05/2013 1:51:09 PM PDT by lifebygrace
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