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Pope Francis discovers charismatic movement a gift to the whole church
Catholic News Service ^ | August 9, 2013 | Francis X. Rocca

Posted on 08/09/2013 7:45:54 PM PDT by ebb tide

Pope Francis discovers charismatic movement a gift to the whole church

By Francis X. Rocca Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- During World Youth Day celebrations in Rio de Janeiro, July 23-28, many worshippers in the crowds could be seen swaying from side to side, arms raised in the air, wearing rapt or joyous expressions on their faces.

(Excerpt) Read more at catholicnews.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: charismatic; francis
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1 posted on 08/09/2013 7:45:54 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

The whole continuing binding revelation thing is par for the course.


2 posted on 08/09/2013 8:02:09 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("You keep using that verse, but I do not think it means what you think it means.")
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To: ebb tide

From the IOR to the gay lobby: Pope Francis tells all on flight from Rio to Rome
Vatican Insider - LaStampa ^ | 07/29/2013 | Andrea Tornielli

On the Charismatic Renewal Movement

“At the end of the 70s, early 80s, I couldn’t see them. I once said they must confuse liturgical celebration with samba lessons! Then I got to know them better and I was won over. I saw the work that they did and I said mass for them in Buenos Aires every year. I think movements are necessary; they are a gift from the Holy Spirit. The Church is free; the Holy Spirit does what it wants.”
http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/gmg-26831//pag/1/


3 posted on 08/09/2013 8:29:38 PM PDT by haffast (Books serve to show a man that those original thoughts of his aren't very new at all. -Abe Lincoln)
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To: ebb tide

We call them Frannies here, as we are home to Franciscan University of Steubenville. Our church is where most of them attend Mass. I’m fine with thier family sizes; however, they mainly live in government subsidized housing and they use SNAP and WIC. Some of the smaller families take in foster children for extra income. My husband is the fire inspector so he has to inspect the foster homes. As a staunch Catholic, he’s not impressed. They do their arm waving thing and that bothers some of the older parishioners, and thier every-other-week takeover of music bothers me a bit. I don’t need guitars and drums to make me feel cool to be in church. Rant off, as I’m going to take something for this heartburn that’s making me so grouchy tonight.


4 posted on 08/09/2013 8:43:50 PM PDT by goodwithagun (My gun has killed fewer people than Ted Kennedy's car.)
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To: ebb tide

Just goes to show how relativistic and vapid this Pope is. Being no fan of the Catholic religion, but certainly no fan of the Charismatics/Pentecostals, and having once been one of their member, I assure you there is nothing about this movement that is a benefit to anybody. It is wholly focused on emotionalism, and layers upon itself one bad doctrine upon another. Indeed, their number one manifestation, “speaking in tongues,” is not only not biblical (tongues in the Bible were an actual language), but is pure madness, with people literally flaying around as they get “baptized by the Holy Spirit.”

These same phenomena I have seen repeated by stage hypnotists, and even confessed frauds like Marjoe Gortner, who even described the emotional game he would play with these people when he would lay hands on them, allegedly “healing” their ailments and other such things. I’ve seen Occultists use them as well. ‘Psychic vampires,’ self proclaimed, getting people to fall over or even to pass out from across the room.

Most of it, I would say, is purely psychological. In other cases, it is diabolical. But in every case, it’s something that does not engender any kind of love for the truth or encourage real thinking.


5 posted on 08/09/2013 8:48:16 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: ebb tide

Pope Benedict XVI

Pope Benedict XVI, addressing two charismatic groups, affirmed and promoted the charismatic emphasis of the young movements in the Church on October 31, 2008:

"The ecclesial movements and new communities, which bloomed after the Second Vatican Council, are a unique gift of the Lord and a precious resource for the life of the Church. . . .  They should be welcomed with trust and valued in their various contributions. . . .  The charisms arise as visible signs of the coming of the Holy Spirit, not as a historical event of the past, but as an always living reality. . . ."

"The Spirit himself, soul of the Church, acts in her in every age, and his interventions, mysterious and efficacious, manifest themselves in our times in a providential way.  The movements and new communities are like an inrush of the Holy Spirit in the Church and in contemporary society. . . ."

"One of the positive elements and aspects of the communities of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is precisely the importance given by them to the charisms and gifts of the Holy Spirit and their merit lies in having reminded the Church of the actuality [of these gifts] . . ."

The Pope emphasized the value and the importance of the new charisms in the Church, whose authenticity is guaranteed by the willingness to submit themselves to discernment from ecclesiastical authorities.


6 posted on 08/09/2013 8:54:31 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: ebb tide

Charismatic gifts

Prophecy    |     Deliverance    |    Tongues    |    Teaching
Healing - Miracles   |    Discernment
Apparitions    |    Messages

 


7 posted on 08/09/2013 8:55:08 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

“’speaking in tongues,’ is not only not biblical (tongues in the Bible were an actual language)”

What in the world are you talking about? Tongues are biblical. Tongues can be an actual language, but they are gifts of the Spirit.

“These signs will accompany those who believe ... they will speak new languages” -Mark 16:17

“Now I should like all of you to speak in tongues...” -1 Cor 14:5

“how ... vapid this Pope is.”

How many languages do you speak? How many advanced degrees do you have? You could benefit from a little humility.

“there is nothing about this movement that is a benefit to anyone”

You don’t know what you’re talking about. I’ve personally seen one person healed of a bad back situation by a charismatic priest. There are people who have been healed by charismatics and there are before and after x-rays and tests to prove they’ve been healed. A number of charismatics are very gifted and bring great good to others.

I’ve never been a big charismatic but was in the movement a bit during the 90s. Like Pope Francis, I was put off a bit by liturgical abuses I saw in Charismatic Masses and a few charismatics who seemed to think the Holy Spirit guided them to something contrary to the Magisterium. There have been excesses in the Charismatic movement and a need for it to be purified. But to say it’s not Biblical ... What do you do? Throw out 1 Cor 13 and 14?


8 posted on 08/09/2013 9:28:53 PM PDT by MDLION ("Trust in the Lord with all your heart" -Proverbs 3:5)
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To: haffast; ebb tide; Salvation

I find it odd and a bit disconcerting to see Pope Francis refer the Holy Spirit as “it”, while Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI clearly uses “He” in his comments.

Quoting Pope Francis: The Church is free; the Holy Spirit does what it wants.”
http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/gmg-26831//pag/1/

Quoting Benedict XVI: “The Spirit himself, soul of the Church, acts in her in every age, and his interventions, mysterious and efficacious, manifest themselves in our times in a providential way...” October 31, 2008 (Taken from Salvation’s post #6 in this thread)


9 posted on 08/09/2013 9:29:49 PM PDT by miele man
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To: MDLION

“You don’t know what you’re talking about.”


Of course I do. I was a Pentecostal and highly involved with this stuff. For years I witnessed “Prophets” give false prophecies, wicked and evil people speak in “tongues,” amongst a host of other things. I’ve watched people work themselves up to emotional fervor, become convinced about this or that particular prophecy, confirm it through various spiritual signs, and then the prophecy and their expectations are utterly destroyed. I’ve witnessed people who did nothing but go from one emotional high to another, who in the end got broken and through all of that didn’t know the slightest thing about the Gospel.

There is no significant difference between what the Charismatics do, whether it’s Catholic or Protestant, and what Oneness Pentecostals do, who deny the trinity, or Wiccans, or Satanists, or “Psychic” vampires, or Stage Hypnotists.

“There are people who have been healed by charismatics and there are before and after x-rays and tests to prove they’ve been healed. A number of charismatics are very gifted and bring great good to others.”


And Benny Hinn has people who swear up and down that he cured their cancer, but that certainly doesn’t change all his false prophecies and heretical teachings, right?

Do you know what is biblically supposed to happen to a false prophet for even just ONE false claim?


10 posted on 08/09/2013 10:11:33 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: ebb tide

From what I have seen at the SCRC and among charismatics I know, they can be some of the best defenders of orthodox Christian beliefs. They may actually read the Bible, papal encyclicals, lives of the Saints.

I’m not charismatic, but I’m a fan of their Christian Joy. Some may be loopy. Many are solid.


11 posted on 08/09/2013 10:29:48 PM PDT by married21
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

“(tongues in the Bible were an actual language)”

No one knows what the “tongues of angels” sounds like but they must exist if Paul mentioned them(when speaking of the importance of love(charity in some translations). I know of a case where a Jewish person, versed in Hebrew had been visiting a Pentecostal congregation and heard glorious praises to God being offered up in Hebrew. Real languages can often be heard in such Pentecostal or Charismatic services. The issue becomes where languages are spoken and there is no one to interpret...Paul stated it was better at that point for those who had been given tongues to pray in those languages privately so that “there would be no confusion”.


12 posted on 08/10/2013 1:30:38 AM PDT by mdmathis6
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To: MDLION

“bad back situation by a charismatic priest. There are people who have been healed by charismatics “

Look at your choice of words....who does the healing?


13 posted on 08/10/2013 1:32:56 AM PDT by mdmathis6
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To: mdmathis6

“No one knows what the “tongues of angels” sounds like but they must exist if Paul mentioned them(when speaking of the importance of love(charity in some translations)”


More than likely he was using a metaphor for eloquent speech. As Barnes says in his commentary, “The language of angels here seems to be used to denote the highest power of using language, or of the most elevated faculty of eloquence and speech. It is evidently derived from the idea that the angels are “superior” in all respects to human beings; that they must have endowments in advance of all which man can have.”

But this is just a pitiful explanation for why people only hear stories about other people speaking in actual languages, though they never do it themselves, and why they speak no actual language at all when they practice the “gift”. If what you were doing was speaking a language, it would have some observable syntax, certain set patterns. What we see in tongue-speak is actually just glossolalia, not the language of alleged angels, or Hebrew, or Japanese, or some obscure language in Africa, simply waiting to be translated by someone with the proper gift.

I’ve experimented with this myself, by the way, speaking false tongues to get a interpretation, and this has never failed.

By the way, I’ve heard that Hebrew story, or something quite like it. You’re more than welcome to provide a transcript of your tongue-speech, however, and with any luck I might be able to recognize it, or someone else will, for whatever language it may be. Provided it isn’t the convenient Angelic language. In which case I still have old transcripts I made of mine, and we can compare to see if it’s the same Angel language, or maybe a dialect like in the northern part of heaven, or something.


14 posted on 08/10/2013 2:44:42 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Salvation

Thank-you Salvation for that wonderful information.


15 posted on 08/10/2013 4:03:30 AM PDT by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: married21

....Plus those who are in this movement can also be the very best faithful Christians/Catholics as well.


16 posted on 08/10/2013 4:05:26 AM PDT by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: Salvation

Good for Pope Benedict Emeritus to give his blessings to this movement.

God Bless both Pope Francis and Pope Benedict Emeritus.


17 posted on 08/10/2013 4:07:39 AM PDT by Biggirl (“Go, do not be afraid, and serve”-Pope Francis)
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To: ebb tide; Salvation; married21; miele man
The link below is to a sermon delivered by a traditionalist priest to traditional Catholics. It is based on Luke 18:9-14

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector.

9 He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else.

10 “Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector.

11 The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity—greedy, dishonest, adulterous—or even like this tax collector.

12 I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.

13 But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”


Conquer Your Inner Pharisee With Humility and Meekness
18 posted on 08/10/2013 5:43:52 AM PDT by NYer ( "Run from places of sin as from the plague."--St John Climacus)
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To: miele man; Salvation

It can be easier to say "it" than "He".

Having once expressed myself like that before on these pages, a few people then seized upon that to dismiss out-of-hand what else I was sharing witness of.

Where are those critics now? They were Roman Catholics, seeking to silence me (as usual). Now a pope uses the same terminology. Should all that that man says, now be shunted aside for (perhaps too casually?) using the word "it" when referring to the Holy Spirit? Will they run to lecture that man, as they did me, telling a pope there is no way he could know what he was talking about in the slightest, since he used the word "it" in referring to the Holy Spirit?

IIRC, my own usage was regarding receiving or under-going baptism of Spirit, resulting in there being a persistent presence of the Spirit living within a person. I said something along the lines of get "it". For doing so, I was attacked--- and everything else I was sharing stomped on, then figuratively thrown in the garbage.

Without the Holy Ghost, we are severely limited in what we can understand of the things of God. The fleshly mind (our natural minds) can hardly at all comprehend Him otherwise.

19 posted on 08/10/2013 5:49:46 AM PDT by BlueDragon (Post Tenebras lux)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Paul equates “tongues of men and angels” concretely, not metaphorically(at least as translated). Not everything in the Bible is metaphorical and Barnes just gives his “whatever” opinion!

What’s the matter...the thought that the Holy Spirit just might empower someone directly and dynamically to speak with tongues of man and angels, preach with boldness, prophesy, heal the sick, give you a “metaphorical” chill?!!!


20 posted on 08/10/2013 5:55:22 AM PDT by mdmathis6
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To: NYer

What does your post have to do with the article posted?


21 posted on 08/10/2013 6:39:34 AM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

Plenty ... did you enjoy the sermon?


22 posted on 08/10/2013 7:20:08 AM PDT by NYer ( "Run from places of sin as from the plague."--St John Climacus)
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To: mdmathis6

At a healing Mass the priest was laying hands on a friend of mine and praying when all of a sudden, he was speaking in tongues.

It happens.


23 posted on 08/10/2013 7:28:18 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Biggirl

Most welcome.


24 posted on 08/10/2013 7:28:52 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

It does...like “the wind blowing where it wills”, thus is the work of the Holy Spirit!

And so it was with me, when I was invited to a Catholic Charismatic meeting....nuff said!


25 posted on 08/10/2013 9:09:01 AM PDT by mdmathis6
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ping


26 posted on 08/10/2013 10:30:12 AM PDT by RBStealth
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Most of it, I would say, is purely psychological. In other cases, it is diabolical. But in every case, it’s something that does not engender any kind of love for the truth or encourage real thinking.

I call it buffoonery.

27 posted on 08/10/2013 11:53:25 AM PDT by Jeff Chandler (People are idiots.)
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To: NYer

“Plenty” is not an answer.


28 posted on 08/10/2013 3:42:45 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: Salvation

Was it a charismatic Mass? If so, that explains it.


29 posted on 08/10/2013 3:44:07 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: Salvation
From your link to “Prophecy”, it is stated:

“Bishops and priests also receive this gift (prophecy), although not all of them open themselves to the influence of the Holy Spirit, since when speaking in prophecy one is the instrument of God, but some actually having the opportunity to prophesy become obstacles of the message of God.”

Care to name any of your priests or bishops who are open to this “gift” of “prophecy”. And what exactly have they prophesied? Please share with us.

30 posted on 08/10/2013 4:31:41 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: Jeff Chandler

“I call it buffoonery”

I call your description accurate.


31 posted on 08/10/2013 4:41:34 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

I don’t really disagree with your first paragraph. But to cite Benny Hinn or someone who doesn’t really heal doesn’t sway my mind when there are before and after x-rays and tests of people whom Jesus heals through those whom He has gifted with healing abilities. The presence of phony healers doesn’t mean there aren’t some of have charismatic gifts of healing.

“to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit” -1 Cor 12:9


32 posted on 08/11/2013 3:35:04 PM PDT by MDLION ("Trust in the Lord with all your heart" -Proverbs 3:5)
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To: mdmathis6

God heals through the human instrument He has gifted. I thought this was understood without being said.

“to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit” -1 Cor 12:9


33 posted on 08/11/2013 5:14:44 PM PDT by MDLION ("Trust in the Lord with all your heart" -Proverbs 3:5)
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To: MDLION

The problem is that everybody always talks about before and after X-rays, even those “healed” by Benny Hinn (just do a google search). But I’ve never actually myself seen any of these wonderful miracles, only heard about them from other people who claim up and down that they happened... to someone else.

This is not to say that God does not heal, or that God absolutely does not perform miracles. I was reading an old book on the Calvinist reformers of Scotland, and they were full of things that would remind you of the Book of Acts. But, they have no resemblance to what these people claim. Dr. John Gill, in his eulogy for his 12 year old daughter, talks about her vision of a man on horseback riding over and slaying her with a sword, only to wake up in heaven walking with the Saints. As it turned out, she died not long after, with Gill remarking that the dream was a “perfect emblem” of that death that would come upon her.

But in all of this the emphasis and purpose are completely different, and certainly no one was girating on the floor or giving heed to doctrines of devils like so many of these Charismatic/Pentecostal groups do.

I don’t know if you are a Catholic or not, but say you aren’t; do you think that God would move with Catholics who deny the efficacious work of Christ on the cross? And not only does He fail to correct them, but encourages their idolatries and various behaviors?

Or say that you are a Catholic. Do you suppose that the Holy Spirit, outside of the Roman Catholic religion, would not only acknowledge the true salvation of people outside that religion, but promote their doctrines?

Or say you are someone who walks into a service by the Oneness Pentecostals, and you see them doing all the things that you claim to do, and more? They also claim to have a “healing” ministry, and they speak in tongues (in fact, they believe speaking in tongues is required for salvation), amongst many other claims. And yet they deny the Trinity, and claim that baptism must be done by someone of their church and in the name of Jesus in order to be valid, in order to receive the Holy Spirit.

No matter how jaded you are, you have to admit that these people are damned, and teach a damnable theology.

What really matters is not any of these miracles, but rather doctrine. Or, better to say, the Truth. And what matters is none of these miraculous gifts, but the gifts of faith, love, and charity, which is what really follows a renewed life. And what converts men is not signs at all, or human reasoning, but the power and moving of the Holy Spirit, which is invisible, and happens in the heart, and in the soul that is quickened.


34 posted on 08/11/2013 10:36:46 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: MDLION

If you are speaking of Doctors and medicine, I have no argument with you there, just like I won’t argue with a person who had cancer or some other ailment, was prayed for, or attended a mass somewhere, and found that his cancer was cured. There are many documented healings from both catholic or protestant sources where God has acted in a sovereign manner where medicine had failed or at least where God has chosen to operate beyond medicine beyond the need of a human conduit(other than the praying minister and/or deacons).


35 posted on 08/12/2013 2:42:39 AM PDT by mdmathis6
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

I do have the same concerns as you when it comes false Pentecostalism. One has to be discerning and run away from any Pentecostal movements not coupled with strong Orthodoxy.
I had run into situations where the Bibles genuine exhortation to examine one-self and to ‘test the spirts’ were seen as “introspection” and there-fore not spiritual. One was expected to accept what-ever when the Bible and conscience seemed to indicate danger or “don’t go there”!

The Holy Spirit is supposed to equip the saints for ministry and to be a comfort in a time for trouble...He always points toward Jesus, his resurrection, and teaches our hearts about the deep things of God bringing them to mind as He will. The joy or “times of refreshing” He brings are gifts but are not the whole object of why He is a part of our lives.

Many of the Assemblies of God churches show good balances between Orthodoxy and the Numinous experiential. Where you see strong Orthodox teaching in the Charismatic or Pentecostal churches where the teaching of the blood stained cross is not shunned, that’s where you will see the Holy Spirit ready to move in full measure “as he will”!


36 posted on 08/12/2013 3:04:19 AM PDT by mdmathis6
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

I know a man who was having issues with post surgery related to his Chrohns disease(fistulas were the issue). We prayed for him as a group in our church. The man was in the hospital at the time and had no knowledge of what we were doing).

The man reports later(he had had the strongest urge to call me at work to tell me) that about the same hour we were praying for him, his abdomen began to visibly bulge over a few moments and opened up releasing a whole mound of purulent noxious contents. He was cleaned up and rebandeaged. His wound finally closed within a couple of days and he was out of the hospital symptom free. He knew something had happened to him and wanted to tell everyone. I was not a personal friend of his so I found his desire to call me surprising but after a number of years perhaps not. I do know when last I saw him, 6 years had passed with no more resumption of his symptoms.(there was talk of healing in a Sunday School class and I mentioned the incident from 6 years before...some uttered skepticism when I mentioned that I had believed God had healed him after prayer in that same sunday school class 6 years before but the man was in attendance in the class and he confirmed that he had no further resumption of his Chrohns disease!!)(I also found the hesitancy of some to believe that God still heals directly where he wants to also distressing).


37 posted on 08/12/2013 3:22:53 AM PDT by mdmathis6
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

“Or say that you are a Catholic. Do you suppose that the Holy Spirit, outside of the Catholic religion,
would not only acknowledge the true salvation of people outside that religion”

I am Catholic and not only does the Church teach that Christians outside the Church can be saved, but the Church also teaches that there is a possibility of even non-Christians being saved.”

“Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they have known its necessity.”
-Catechism of the Catholic Church -No.1260

The Catholic Church doesn’t teach that the Holy Spirit doesn’t work with Christians outside the Catholic Church. Despite the differences on a number of issues, there is actually much more that unites Catholics and other Christians than divides them. But the Catholic Church teaches that the Fullness of Truth resides in Her.

“you have to admit that these people are damned”

No one with breath still in their body is certainly damned. Who knows what crimes the good thief committed. He was probably on his way to damnation but He was saved in the last hours of his life. Moses murdered a man. King David made sure a man would be killed in battle so he could have his wife. Saul was there when Stephen was being stoned and who knows how many Christians died in prison after he dragged them off. God’s Mercy is Unfathomable and tries to the very end to save every human being. I can’t remember what Council it was, but the Catholic Church teaches that every human being receives sufficient Grace for Salvation. If this were not true, throngs on Judgment Day could accuse God of being unjust.

“What really matters is not any of these miracles but doctrine.”

But some people only first come to belief through miracles. If you have a hardened sinner who God sees will not repent unless He intervenes, He may work a miracle for that person or someone close to them so that they will open themselves up to the gift of faith. It’s true that Jesus wanted people to believe in him and his words whether or not He did miracles for them. Truth is more important than signs and wonders but miracles worked by Jesus and the Apostles helped establish and spread the Church. I admit that people who are interested in wonders and don’t care much about doctrine and Truth seem like the ones who will be taken in by false miracles at the end of the world.

“in every mighty deed and in signs and wonders that lie, and in every wicked deceit for those who are perishing because they have not accepted the love of truth so that they may be saved. Therefore, God is sending them a deceiving power so that they may believe the lie, that all who have approved wrongdoing may be condemned.”
-2 Thess 2:9-12


38 posted on 08/12/2013 11:53:23 PM PDT by MDLION ("Trust in the Lord with all your heart" -Proverbs 3:5)
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To: mdmathis6

In that post “human instrument” means healers. But I’m not denying that God can heal directly without anyone’s intercession.


39 posted on 08/12/2013 11:59:08 PM PDT by MDLION ("Trust in the Lord with all your heart" -Proverbs 3:5)
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To: MDLION

“No one with breath still in their body is certainly damned.”


Someone who denies the trinity, and asserts that salvation is only through baptism by approved members of their religion, can possibly be saved.

As for Roman Catholic teachings on people being saved outside of Christianity, certainly it does not match what your religion used to believe. And last I checked, Luther and the entire reformation, indeed, even Augustine, Chyrsostom, or any person who believed in salvation by faith alone without the working of the law, are anathematized by Trent and the many pronouncements by your Popes. Roman Catholic opinion now, which even goes so far as to open up the way to Atheists, is merely a sign of its weakness and decay. More importantly, however, is that it is anti-Biblical.

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Ignorance of Jesus Christ is no excuse, for the same reason why no one outside of the religion of Moses had any excuse, though not being under any covenant or obligation by God to have mercy on them. They are guilty for their sins, which they know, in themselves, are what they are.

It is for this claim that there is salvation outside of Jesus Christ that I would never want to unite in any way with the Roman Catholic church.

“No one with breath still in their body is certainly damned. Who knows what crimes the good thief committed. He was probably on his way to damnation but He was saved in the last hours of his life. Moses murdered a man. King David made sure a man would be killed in battle so he could have his wife. Saul was there when Stephen was being stoned and who knows how many Christians died in prison after he dragged them off. God’s Mercy is Unfathomable and tries to the very end to save every human being.”


God is not bound to have mercy on every human being, nor is His will so weak that He cannot save every human being if He wanted. He is utterly sovereign in salvation. Just like He only chose the promised Seed of Abraham, and saved them by His grace though they deserved it not. So likewise God in this new covenant only saves those whom He chooses to have mercy on out of the world, and not the whole world itself.

“That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?” (Rom 9:8-20)

What’s strange about your statements is that you seem to acknowledge that salvation is by grace only, and not of works, by pointing out the horrible sins of David and other such saints. Yet, the entire premise of a non-Christian being saved is built upon their supposed merits for to earn salvation.

This is why I cannot take such things seriously as Charismatics, especially those who took their hyper-emotionalism into the Catholic religion. It’s anti-Christian at its core and seems to be a vehicle for a false ecumenicism. Unless we hold fast to those doctrines delivered to us by the Apostles, we aren’t Christians.

Do miracles happen? Does God still answer prayers? Yes.

But does God spread false doctrines and damnation with His Spirit? No.


40 posted on 08/13/2013 1:22:03 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: MDLION

Typo: No one who denies the trinity, etc etc, can possibly be saved. — My original sentence seemed to have the opposite meaning than what I intended.


41 posted on 08/13/2013 1:23:37 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

With all due respect, you still need to get some “damn” out of your mind.

God is busy trying in myriad ways to bless an unwilling world, which is unwilling because it invested itself in the devil at the fall (it was a human soul conspiracy, “WE” sinned in Adam). Damnation is not plan A or even plan B. In fact now I am convinced it is something like plan Z — if numbers who do not get to plan Z are empirically few we only have ourselves to blame for that. The narrow door is narrow all right — it needs a Shepherd to get you through it. Don’t accept Shepherd — no get through door. But DO accept Shepherd — door is lead pipe cinch.

I don’t go for “hyper emotionalism,” no. But I also go for making a righteous judgment and what happens inwardly is what matters, not what some worry minded critic says looking at the externals. Try tracing the blessings sometime, rather than your own curses. Give questionable situations some patience and pray that they are well, not that they are rotten. Something of the devil will end up with very obvious denial of God’s glory before long; with no grace to work with the devil cannot keep up appearances for long.


42 posted on 08/13/2013 1:41:39 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar again if you give him a big hug and mean it. See my page.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

I look at it in positive light. All saved will come to affirm the Trinity.


43 posted on 08/13/2013 1:42:16 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar again if you give him a big hug and mean it. See my page.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

“God is busy trying in myriad ways to bless an unwilling world, which is unwilling because it invested itself in the devil at the fall (it was a human soul conspiracy, “WE” sinned in Adam). Damnation is not plan A or even plan B. In fact now I am convinced it is something like plan Z — if numbers who do not get to plan Z are empirically few we only have ourselves to blame for that.”


Salvation is through Jesus Christ, the only plan. Anything outside of that is false and is not supported by the scripture. Therefore, I also refuse it.


44 posted on 08/13/2013 1:46:08 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Oh... and blessings come with exaltation of the Lord... the two are tied together inextricably. Someone who is exalting the Lord energetically is in a GOOD place no matter how embarrassing the emotion may be to you. After all, King David danced until you could see his underpants! Now channeling of the emotion is needed — don’t get so carried away that you forget to do the right thing afterward. (David did and got a sobering lesson.) But with that caveat, the more the exaltation the better.


45 posted on 08/13/2013 1:49:24 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar again if you give him a big hug and mean it. See my page.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

I don’t think you said anything that negates what I said.


46 posted on 08/13/2013 1:52:42 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar again if you give him a big hug and mean it. See my page.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

But you did chop off part of what I posted... does that part embarrass you a little?


47 posted on 08/13/2013 1:54:13 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar again if you give him a big hug and mean it. See my page.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Let me clarify in a way that may sound less “combative.” Plan A was obedience in the Garden. That sank. Plans B-Y are various ministrations of Christ. Both pre and post incarnation. Plan Z is damnation.

God is not an easily giving up God; we are easily giving up people, slow to recognize that our enemies are purely supernatural. One of the most aggravating things to God in many supposedly good Christian lives is the idea that we have to bring some sort of offering to God before embracing Him. Oh, we have to carry Him a fear offering, or a worry offering, or a pride offering, or a religion offering... NO. And God blessed me with an intense enough hunger for Him that I was weeping as I approached nearer and nearer, although I had been nominally saved for decades. When we embraced without all those silly world-offerings... BAM. I was there with my Heavenly Father. He was listening. Very clear supernatural effects and amazing blessings. I mean, God forgave me for this other stuff too, but it hurt the quality of our embrace; the idea that I had to bring those offerings clouded my spiritual vision. The only offering He wants is something to immediately pick up and exalt. What a favor, what a blessing.


48 posted on 08/13/2013 2:28:18 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (The Lion of Judah will roar again if you give him a big hug and mean it. See my page.)
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To: HiTech RedNeck

“Oh... and blessings come with exaltation of the Lord... the two are tied together inextricably.”


You might be referring to the practice of being “drunk in the Spirit,” or of the wild behavior that usually accompanies the “gift of tongues,’ at least from what I’ve seen. David dancing around is not the same as claiming that one is staggering or making animal noises or falling over as a result of the Spirit. When the Apostles received the gift of tongues, they were only accused by mockers of being drunk, since they supposed they were babbling, but not by those who understood the real languages that were spoken. The Apostles also denied being drunk, and instead quite soberly preached the Gospel. Which, if what you said is true, they would rather have been staggering about, and if we were really into it, shouting “Bam!” “Bam!” as they kicked people in the face, like Todd Bentley does.


49 posted on 08/13/2013 2:59:26 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: HiTech RedNeck

“But you did chop off part of what I posted... does that part embarrass you a little?”


No, not at all. Due to the forum problems right now I can’t even see it, and whatever you wrote, I’ve forgotten it, as it didn’t register with me in the first place. I just picked a part of your post to quote, since it seemed to be suggesting, with the other fellow, that there is salvation outside of Christianity.


50 posted on 08/13/2013 3:01:22 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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