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Veneration of Mary in Luke 11:27-28
August 15, 2013 | Annalex

Posted on 08/15/2013 7:03:11 PM PDT by annalex

Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:

Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)

What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:

Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)

The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source
Note that there is no condemnation here, not even asking the woman to stop; the "yea rather" (μενουνγε) is not a negation. It is used other times in the New Testament without a hint of negation. In Philippians 3:8 "αλλα μενουνγε και ηγουμαι παντα ζημιαν ειναι", "Furthermore I count all things to be but loss" (Textus Receptus 1550/1894, Byzantine/Majority Text 2000 has here "αλλα μεν ουν και ηγουμαι…" which is the same word morphology spelled separately and colliding affirmative "γε" with the following "και"). Romans 9:20 "μενουνγε ω ανθρωπε συ τις ει ο ανταποκρινομενος τω θεω" and Romans 10:18 "μενουνγε εις πασαν την γην εξηλθεν ο φθογγος αυτων" use the word reinforcing the subsequent statement. Some translations obscure this linguistic fact: in King James for example, the same word is rendered correctly, "yea rather" in Luke 11:28, wholly incongruously, "nay but" in Romans 9:20, but in Romans 10:18 the translation is again correct, "Yes verily". NRSV has both correct and elegant translations for all three. (See The Holy Mother and the "ΜΕΝΟΥΝΓΕ")

Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.


TOPICS: Catholic; History; Orthodox Christian
KEYWORDS: catholic; mary
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This is from the book I am writing. Have a blessed holy day.
1 posted on 08/15/2013 7:03:11 PM PDT by annalex
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To: Salvation

For your ping list.


2 posted on 08/15/2013 7:03:35 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex

He didn’t condemn her, just gently moved her in a different direction.


3 posted on 08/15/2013 7:06:13 PM PDT by DManA
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To: DManA

Luke 11:38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.”


4 posted on 08/15/2013 7:11:42 PM PDT by ronnietherocket3 (Mary is understood by the heart, not study of scripture.)
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To: ronnietherocket3

Yes, what does that mean to you?


5 posted on 08/15/2013 7:13:59 PM PDT by DManA
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To: DManA

Mary obeys the Word of God; Jesus says that those who obey the Word of God are blessed.


6 posted on 08/15/2013 7:20:57 PM PDT by ronnietherocket3 (Mary is understood by the heart, not study of scripture.)
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To: ronnietherocket3
Luke 11:38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.”

Should be Luke 1:38.
7 posted on 08/15/2013 7:21:41 PM PDT by ronnietherocket3 (Mary is understood by the heart, not study of scripture.)
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To: ronnietherocket3

That is True.


8 posted on 08/15/2013 7:22:27 PM PDT by DManA
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To: DManA

Ergo Mary is blessed.


9 posted on 08/15/2013 7:23:18 PM PDT by ronnietherocket3 (Mary is understood by the heart, not study of scripture.)
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To: ronnietherocket3

And so are all who try to serve the Lord.


10 posted on 08/15/2013 7:25:57 PM PDT by DManA
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To: DManA

Any focus not on Jesus is a diversion. This Mary worship, veneration, adoration or whatever they call it is throwing our focus on something other than Jesus. His blood made our salvation possible. If we look elsewhere then we are like Peter trying to walk on water and that don’t work out so good.


11 posted on 08/15/2013 7:31:32 PM PDT by BipolarBob
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To: annalex
Many saints throughout the ages (including saints today) obey God's Word.

The Bible says in many places that such are blessed.

12 posted on 08/15/2013 7:38:46 PM PDT by what's up
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To: BipolarBob

Jesus treated his mother with honor - according to the law.

How he treated his mother is how we should treat our mothers.

We should not worship our mothers.


13 posted on 08/15/2013 7:39:18 PM PDT by DManA
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To: ronnietherocket3

That she is blessed does not imply any basis for anything remotely resembling worship of her, and does not imply any inherently superior standing among others. Christ had to be born human, and Mary - an otherwise normal “good” yet conceived-in-sin person - was chosen as mother. Yes she is blessed - now let’s all get back to worshiping God.


14 posted on 08/15/2013 7:43:14 PM PDT by ctdonath2 (Making good people helpless doesn't make bad people harmless.)
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To: annalex
This is from the book I am writing.

Will it include pictures?

15 posted on 08/15/2013 7:47:12 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("Thus, my opponent's argument falls.")
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To: DManA

And BTW he honored is Earthy father too - according to the Law. Why don’t we worship Joseph?


16 posted on 08/15/2013 7:48:27 PM PDT by DManA
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To: DManA

To the contrary, there are several instances where He was a little abrupt with Mary. Maybe she was being too much of a Jewish mother.
But yeah, this veneration of Mary is pretty much a Catholic thing.
If you Catholics think it is necessary, or that the rest of us are hell-bound because we reject veneration of Jesus’ Mom, well, you could excommunicate us but ... you’ve already done that, so I suppose we’ll just have just have to agree to disagree.
Btw, I don’t accept the label “Protestant”; why don’t you call yourselves Christians, if that’s what you are, instead of Catholics?


17 posted on 08/15/2013 7:49:11 PM PDT by tumblindice (America's founding fathers: All armed conservatives.)
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To: tumblindice; DManA

Sure you recognize this polemic, as it is, really isn’t addressed to you.
Another way of looking at this might be, I’m sure that even among Catholics there must be schisms, those who believe others are in error and whose immortal souls are thus in jeopardy.
The same way muzzie’s see the rest of the world as ‘infidels.’
Well, I’m going to bed. Be a brick and handle the mackeral-snappers for me, will you?


18 posted on 08/15/2013 7:57:00 PM PDT by tumblindice (America's founding fathers: All armed conservatives.)
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To: tumblindice

How do you take Mathew 12:48 and turn her into the Queen of Heaven?

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”


19 posted on 08/15/2013 8:00:04 PM PDT by DManA
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To: annalex; nickcarraway; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ArrogantBustard; Catholicguy; RobbyS; ...

Catholic Ping!


20 posted on 08/15/2013 8:18:18 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: BipolarBob

Any focus not on Jesus is a diversion. This Mary worship, veneration, adoration or whatever they call it is throwing our focus on something other than Jesus. His blood made our salvation possible. If we look elsewhere then we are like Peter trying to walk on water and that don’t work out so good.

/////////////////
Succinctly put!


21 posted on 08/15/2013 8:23:05 PM PDT by man_in_tx (Blowback (Faithfully farting twowards Mecca five times daily).)
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To: annalex

“This teaching is similar to that in 8:19–21. Family relationships are not the most important things in life. A woman noted that it must have been wonderful to have been Jesus’ mother. The idea of physical relationship was more important in that day. The whole nation took pride in the fact that they descended from Abraham (cf. John 8:33–39). “

“Jesus pointed out that a physical relationship was unimportant compared with hearing and obeying the Word of God. As Luke emphasized, the gospel is not limited to Israel but is for but is for all who trust in Christ.”

Bible Knowledge Commentary


22 posted on 08/15/2013 8:25:52 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws - Tacituss)
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To: ronnietherocket3

“Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done unto me according to thy Word”.


23 posted on 08/15/2013 9:21:48 PM PDT by blackpacific
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To: man_in_tx

Every focus on Mary I a focus on Jesus.


24 posted on 08/15/2013 9:24:41 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: tumblindice
How Old Is Your Church?

25 posted on 08/15/2013 9:26:26 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: annalex

To state that someone is blessed is hardly venerating him or her.

The Bible states that many people are blessed, and indeed they are. That doesn’t mean they are to be objects of worship.


26 posted on 08/15/2013 9:31:53 PM PDT by Persevero
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To: BipolarBob

The focus on Mary is a focus on true discipleship. She was the first Christian. Her relationship to him was constant, and through her son knew the Father as all saints shall at the end.


27 posted on 08/15/2013 10:20:07 PM PDT by RobbyS
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To: DManA

Yes and that is what non Catholics have made attempt to do. Take these responses of Jesus in regards to his mother and you can plainly see how Jesus is guiding their attention to the fact that ALL believers and obeyers of God are blessed, and that special emphasis is not to be made on Mary and his other earthly family, he goes so far as to try and put a halt to any possible veneration by stating that whoever does the will of the Father in heaven is just as his mother (and brothers.)

“Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)”

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Can a religion defend putting such emphasis on Mary as to call her Queen of Heaven, her coming to earth to give visions, crafting statues and artwork showing her full of glory, having beads in her name that you pray over etc even after reading in the Bible the context in which Jesus Christ taught his followers regarding the subject?


28 posted on 08/15/2013 11:26:10 PM PDT by kelly4c (http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/post?id=2900389%2C41#help)
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To: Salvation

Please read the following from one of many Catholic websites which talks about Mary and make notice what I’ve pointed out in quotes:

Adoration, or latria, is the worship reserved to God, who is praised and adored as the Supreme Being, infinitely perfect in every way. Veneration, or dulia, is the honor given to another person, who deserves such honor for his or her excellence in one area or another.

“Hyperdulia, which is a level of “veneration” given to one whose excellence exceeds that of all others, is given to Mary.”

We worship God fully aware that He is the Supreme Being and infinitely perfect, and this is latria. We honor the saints aware that they were virtuous Christians and enjoy glory in heaven, and this is dulia.

“We honor Mary aware that she is inferior to God, but God’s holiest creature” and this is hyperdulia.”


29 posted on 08/15/2013 11:42:05 PM PDT by kelly4c (http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/post?id=2900389%2C41#help)
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To: Persevero

This excerpt kind of helps in understanding how they view Mary and why she is deemed very important in their religious view:

“When the Archangel Gabriel spoke to her, the Blessed Virgin could have refused God’s request to bear His Son. Her positive response to the Archangel Gabriel plays an important part in salvation. As St. Irenaeus of Lyon wrote, Mary is the second Eve, whose obedience liberates humanity from the consequences of the disobedience of the first Eve. For this reason, on the Feast of the Nativity of Mary, Orthodox Christians sing, “ … the Mother of Life, who is the renewal of the creation of Adam and the recall of Eve, the fountain of incorruption, the liberation from corruption, through whom we have been deified and delivered from death, is born of the seed of David, dispersing darkness.” Mary could have refused to bear Christ, but she chose to obey God.”

http://www.antiochian.org/node/17079

It seems they really do believe that Mary could have refused God and then Humanity would not have gotten a saviour.


30 posted on 08/15/2013 11:53:09 PM PDT by kelly4c (http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/post?id=2900389%2C41#help)
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To: annalex
As far as I am concerned, this passage from Luke just shows how Jesus wanted Mary to have a low profile. Not a question of holiness...

A much more important verse is the following:

Matthew 7:6

"Do not give what is holy to dogs [to the unworthy]"

Clearly, Mary is a holy person to have the title Mother of God, which Mary clearly has unless you consider that Jesus is not God.

The passage you are referring to does not condemn Mary nor praise Mary. I have heard Biblical scholars state that Jesus wanted Mary to have a low profile.

And yet, for the miracle at Canaan, Jesus clearly tells Mary: Woman, it is not my time.

She in turn does not TELL JESUS WHAT TO DO, but just tells the servants Do whatever He tells you to do.

If Jesus had used the phrase mother, it is not my time, he would have broken the 4th commandment.

However, by using the phrase Woman, it is not my time, he is repsecting the FATHER's WILL at the same time respecting his mother. By using the term woman, he is letting Mary know it is the FATHER's WILL that he is stating, not his.

31 posted on 08/16/2013 1:33:25 AM PDT by topher (Traditional values -- especially family values -- which have been proven over time.)
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To: RobbyS
The focus on Mary is a focus on true discipleship.

Yes, a Mary disciple. You probably have a picture of Mary in your house, huh? When the Bible says "All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God", that tells me we are all in the same boat as far as worthiness for worship. We all fall short. Jesus is the focus and Him alone.

32 posted on 08/16/2013 3:12:32 AM PDT by BipolarBob
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To: Salvation; tumblindice
How Old is Your Church?

Another diversion from Jesus. I suppose Heaven will be divided up by denomination and Catholics will have the prime real estate and all the others with scraps, huh? Pretty sad. The worship of God started in the Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve walked with God and has continued down through the ages. Was Abraham a Catholic?

33 posted on 08/16/2013 3:18:14 AM PDT by BipolarBob
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To: topher; annalex
"Clearly, Mary is a holy person to have the title Mother of God"

Mary has no such title. She is never referred to as such in the Bible. There is no reference that the Disciples considered her as any person worthy of worship or by title. No commandment to treat her any different than anybody elses mother. Again, Jesus is the focus not Mary, not the Pope and not any Church rituals.

34 posted on 08/16/2013 3:24:39 AM PDT by BipolarBob
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To: BipolarBob

I suspect that you are a disciple of your own mother and father, is that not correct? That especially if they have passed on, you have their pictures in a conspicuous place. We all have halls of fame in our lives, persons we honor out of affection or simply because they are persons of outstanding virtue. I do have a picture of Mary in my house, but I also have a very large Crucifix near the front door. It is because she is his mother that I honor her, the person incarnate of the Virgin Mary. that I honor her,


35 posted on 08/16/2013 4:48:20 AM PDT by RobbyS
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To: BipolarBob
Any focus not on Jesus is a diversion

Why? Veneration of saints is a natural form of focusing and worshiping Jesus Who gave them their gifts. Yours is an old idea, first express when the Catholic Church sought to obtain the relics of St. Polycarp:

But when the adversary of the race of the righteous, the envious, malicious, and wicked one, perceived the impressive nature of his martyrdom, and [considered] the blameless life he had led from the beginning, and how he was now crowned with the wreath of immortality, having beyond dispute received his reward, he did his utmost that not the least memorial of him should be taken away by us, although many desired to do this, and to become possessors of his holy flesh. For this end he suggested it to Nicetes, the father of Herod and brother of Alce, to go and entreat the governor not to give up his body to be buried, lest, said he, forsaking Him that was crucified, they begin to worship this one. This he said at the suggestion and urgent persuasion of the Jews, who also watched us, as we sought to take him out of the fire, being ignorant of this, that it is neither possible for us ever to forsake Christ, who suffered for the salvation of such as shall be saved throughout the whole world (the blameless one for sinners), nor to worship any other. For Him indeed, as being the Son of God, we adore; but the martyrs, as disciples and followers of the Lord, we worthily love on account of their extraordinary affection towards their own King and Master, of whom may we also be made companions and fellow disciples! (The Martyrdom of Polycarp.17)

So the disciples seek to “become possessors of his holy flesh”; the argument that this would take away from the worship of Christ and replace it with the worship of Polycarp is advanced not from the Christian midst, but by "the adversary" and "at the suggestion and urgent persuasion of the Jews". What to us is a well-known Christian Protestant argument against veneration of saints has a christophobic origin. The distinction between worship (synonymous with adoration) of God and veneration (loving one who is worthy of love) of a saint was clear to the Early Church.

To a Jew the entire premise of Christianity: that the Triune God sends His Divine Son to all nations, -- is a form of sophisticated polytheism. And indeed, to an unenlightened mind, three is not one, man is not God, righteousness of man does not allow man a pedestal so tall that he could be in company of God face to face. Christianity to a Jew is a logical fallacy and veneration of saints is a proof of that: the error that Jesus was divine breeds the error that a saint is divine.

Don't make the error our adversaries made two thousand years ago. Blessed be God forever, for He gave us a path to sainthood.

36 posted on 08/16/2013 5:24:48 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: what's up
Many saints throughout the ages (including saints today) obey God's Word.

Yes. Exactly. That is the meaning of Luke 11:27-28. Christ opened heaven for many.

37 posted on 08/16/2013 5:25:50 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: Alex Murphy
pictures?

Of course.

38 posted on 08/16/2013 5:26:42 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
a physical relationship was unimportant compared with hearing and obeying the Word of God.

Indeed. The life of St. Alexius Man of God in particular comes to mind.

39 posted on 08/16/2013 5:28:26 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex; DManA; BipolarBob; what's up; ctdonath2; tumblindice; aMorePerfectUnion; Persevero; ...
I will leave any debate about the Greek to others, but in any case the Lord is using this to include those who hear the Word of God and keep it as also being blessed, rather than exalting Mary far above all others per Catholicism. For the problem is, as usual, that of taking words or an act which others also received while on earth and extrapolating that into a level of devotion that is way "above that which is written." (1Cor. 4:6) And the record of Mary in Scripture is significant, but relatively brief.

That the Lord is sustaining the saying of the women affirming the blessedness of the women who nursed the Lord according to the flesh should find no objection, and evangelical commentators such as as Jamieson, Fausset and Brown affirm He was, for indeed Mary was blessed to be that instrument of the Almighty, but as with "blessed thou among women," (Judges 5:24; Lk. 1:28) this type of affirmation was not unique.

Gill states ,

This was a form of blessing among the Jews: so it is said (s) of R. Joshuah ben Chananiah, a disciple of R. Jochanan ben Zaccai, who lived about these times, אשרי יולדתו, "blessed is she that bore him": and they had also a form of cursing among them, much after the same manner, as ליט ביזא דכן איינק, "cursed be the paps that suckled him" (t).

Yet being the earthly mother of the Christ is a blessing surpassing that of others, but it is not said that this was because Mary was more holy and righteous than all others, though was holy and righteous, but she was blessed in grace, having been graced to be the vessel, or handmaiden of the Lord.

Others have consented to be the Lord's instrument, and God used imperfect men as instruments to bring forth His pure word into tangible form, and sinlessness is not a requirement to be such. Nor is it said of Mary that she was sinless, and it is the manner of the Holy Spirit to make mention of even lesser deviations from the norm among the notable characters in Scripture, from extreme age to extreme devotion. And while the things ascribed to Mary by Catholics, and level of adulation, without a word of censure, largely parallel Christ and almost render her a 4th person of the Trinity, the one character whose labor, devotion and passionate love for the church is most described , and without any clear attribution of sin as a believer, is relatively marginalized among RCs.

Thus the evangelical objection should not be against Mary being recognized as honored and holy, but against the egregious extrapolation of the record of Mary and use of tradition to support a level of adulation is is far beyond and even contrary to what is written. For this includes bowing down to statues of her and making prayers to an already crowned Mary as the Queen of Heaven, with almost unlimited power, and whose words are almost like commands to God, and who suffered for our sins as co-redemptrix, and formally titled the Mother of God. Etc. And of where the logic behind this leads to has been already exposed on FR.

40 posted on 08/16/2013 5:31:30 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Persevero
To state that someone is blessed is hardly venerating him or her

True. Veneration takes these forms:


41 posted on 08/16/2013 5:36:07 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: topher
The passage you are referring to does not condemn Mary nor praise Mary

Have you read it?

Verse 27 praises Mary. Verse 28 explains that path to sainthood are many.

Interesting idea that a passage in scripture could be found "condemning" Mary.

Read the Holy Scripture one in a while with love and attention and you, too, will be Catholic.

42 posted on 08/16/2013 5:39:45 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: Salvation

Get ye to the Synagog


43 posted on 08/16/2013 5:40:06 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Salvation

That is just silly. Luther didn’t invent a new religion.


44 posted on 08/16/2013 5:41:11 AM PDT by DManA
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To: BipolarBob; topher
She is never referred to as [Mother of God] in the Bible

First, that is what she is, for Jesus is God. Second, Luke 1:43. Third, the Holy Scripture is not a table of ranks and titles.

45 posted on 08/16/2013 5:42:23 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: daniel1212; DManA; BipolarBob; what's up; ctdonath2; tumblindice; aMorePerfectUnion; Persevero
Thus the evangelical objection should not be against Mary being recognized as honored and holy, but against the egregious extrapolation of the record of Mary and use of tradition to support a level of adulation is is far beyond and even contrary to what is written.

I don't particularly care what you object to or should object to, but to the extent that something like Evangelicalism must exist, yeah, that sounds about right. Time to come back to the Church, Dan.

46 posted on 08/16/2013 5:45:40 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: tumblindice

Btw, I don’t accept the label “Protestant”; why don’t you call yourselves Christians, if that’s what you are, instead of Catholics?


I haven’t researched this, but I believe “Protestant” applies to only a certain group of Church that were formed during a specific time frame in a specific area. I know many mainline Protestants, including my mother and sister, who are perfectly comfortable with the term “Protestant.” It is much better than being called “non-Catholic.”

Well I gotta go, I’m off to Mass. I had the privilege of cantoring at yesterday’s Mass celebrating the Feast of the Assumption. :-)


47 posted on 08/16/2013 5:55:41 AM PDT by rwa265 (Compete well for the faith, lay hold of eternal life (1 Timothy 6))
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To: Salvation
By the way, I was writing these paragraphs yesterday morning, not realizing that it was the Holy Day of Assumption, so I posted it a bit on an impulse when I saw the Vigil readings later in the day.

Thank you for the ping.

48 posted on 08/16/2013 6:00:16 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: Alex Murphy

And the stamps?


49 posted on 08/16/2013 6:05:19 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: DManA
ow do you take Mathew 12:48 and turn her into the Queen of Heaven?

They use others, but after transubstantiation this is easy.

50 posted on 08/16/2013 6:06:15 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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