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Pope Francis on 10 Reasons Why People Reject the Church
brandonvogt ^ | August 16, 2013 | Brandon Vogt

Posted on 08/17/2013 2:06:44 AM PDT by NYer

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To: NYer

I think he is spot on about not only the Roman denomination, but every Church of every kind.


51 posted on 08/17/2013 9:13:55 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws - Tacituss)
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To: Salvation
"Christ founded the Catholic Church and is the head of the Catholic Church. Were you unaware of that? Reading too many lies in those pamplets?"

Christ "founded" the universal Church and is the head of the universal Church. Church = called out ones.

52 posted on 08/17/2013 9:14:25 AM PDT by bkaycee (John 3:16)
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To: JCBreckenridge

“The conflict is very simple. You see yourself as an individual going at it alone with Christ. We see ourselves as a community. “

Not so.

Those of us who know Christ and are a part of His gathering understand that salvation happens one soul at a time, but we are then placed into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. We are now part of His gathering of people for His own possession. Community is crucial. We are commanded not to forsake the gathering of ourselves regularly.


53 posted on 08/17/2013 9:17:55 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws - Tacituss)
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To: GBA
When I think of "The Church", I don't think of the Church Jesus built upon the rock of Peter, however He meant that. I think of a rigid, dogmatic, highly structured and ritualistic institution that I am not welcome in until I learn all of the rituals, and even then, I'll be on probation as an outsider, not really belonging. Probably says more about me, than the Catholic church, but that's my honest answer.

You've cited what is oft quoted as being the reason the Catholic Church is the "one true church" and I think it's important to examine exactly what Christ meant when he said to Peter, "on this rock I will build my church."

Was Peter, the man what Christ intended when he said "on this rock I will build my church?

Or what it really the TRUTH that Peter spoke upon which Christ said "on this rock I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. ."??

Jesus asked him, "Who do you say I am?" to which Peter replied "You are the Christ" (Messiah.) Jesus often used parables to make his point, as I believe he did in this case also. Assuming Jesus used a parable, Peter's response to Jesus was the Truth, and therefore the Truth upon which His church is built.

We could also take a logical approach in coming to a conclusion. Therefore, in this case what makes the most sense? Was Jesus saying to Peter He was building His church around the man, Peter, or was he saying He was building His church upon the Truth Peter spoke? If the Church were to be built on Peter (as Catholics claim due to Peter being the first Pope) then that would mean Jesus rebuked the 11 other Disciples and their teaching from that moment forward was invalid. If that were true, we'd have a completely different Bible, would we not?

The only logical conclusion therefore is that Jesus followed his method of teaching using parables and examples. Of course Jesus didn't say the other eleven Disciples teaching was wrong. Jesus was simply stating (IMO) this His church would be built upon the Truth that Peter spoke, that Jesus Christ is our Messiah.

The proof of that Truth and the conclusion I draw is contained throughout Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. All of which tell the exact same story of Christ.

None of the above is to say that the Catholic Church is the only church, nor is it intended as a slam against the Catholic Church either. First and foremost in any Church is "Who is Jesus? He is the way, the truth and the life. None shall enter heaven except through him. He is our Lord and Savior. He suffered and died for our Sins. He was buried, and on the third day he was Resurrected, defeating death so that we may live. He is our Lord and Savior."

Any church with this as their core message has built their church upon the Rock, the Truth that Peter spoke. (IMHO.)

54 posted on 08/17/2013 9:21:20 AM PDT by usconservative (When The Ballot Box No Longer Counts, The Ammunition Box Does. (What's In Your Ammo Box?))
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To: Salvation
What do you know about these sacraments?

Plenty, I was born, raised, received my first communion, was confirmed, attended pre-cana and was married in the Catholic Church.

Now that my credentials have been established, let's have yours.

55 posted on 08/17/2013 9:22:31 AM PDT by usconservative (When The Ballot Box No Longer Counts, The Ammunition Box Does. (What's In Your Ammo Box?))
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To: Salvation
From your homepage. So why do you not believe Catholics and turn on them?

You assume meaning in my posts that I (a) did not write or (b) intend.

Stop playing the victim of some unknown slight whenever someone has a differing opinion than yours and engage in the conversation (or not.)

56 posted on 08/17/2013 9:24:00 AM PDT by usconservative (When The Ballot Box No Longer Counts, The Ammunition Box Does. (What's In Your Ammo Box?))
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To: daniel1212
Exactly because ONLY JESUS has the power to set someone 'free'. Rome is hell bent on keeping it's subjects in bondage. Only those who seek Truth are set free, the others who remain are unteachable.

Jesus is The Word and the final authority!

57 posted on 08/17/2013 9:40:37 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: grimalkin
I think a lot of what people dislike about the Catholic Church stems from misunderstanding.

Wrong. There is no misunderstanding their man made teachings which oppose God's Word.

58 posted on 08/17/2013 9:44:19 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: GOP Poet
You know nothing about Catholicism. Yours is just a wide berth of assumption.

You have no idea how lame your comment is to anyone born into it and spend 2/3 of their life 'in it'.

Now I am 'in Christ' something you have no idea about and won't until you give up man-made doctrines/teachings for HIS WORD ALONE.

59 posted on 08/17/2013 9:50:58 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

BTTT!


60 posted on 08/17/2013 9:54:28 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Salvation
We are getting a new chapel in our new church.
Awesome, Salvation. That's cool....

Perpetual Eucharistic Adoration Chapels Everywhere spells P-E-A-C-E.
61 posted on 08/17/2013 10:10:18 AM PDT by mlizzy (If people spent an hour a week in Eucharistic adoration, abortion would be ended. --Mother Teresa)
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To: daniel1212; Greetings_Puny_Humans; HiTech RedNeck; .45 Long Colt; metmom; boatbums; caww
And indeed the description below by Francis fits the church, most supremely that of Rome, thus far more convert to being evangelicals than the reverse, with the main reason not being doctrine, but that Rome did not meet there spiritual needs...

It may be a "nit picking point" but I think we are to quick to separate doctrine and spiritual need. It seems to me that The Gospel is doctrine and it is the failure of the RCC to preach The Gospel that leads so many RC's to Evangelical churches where The Gospel is preached everyday. Once a person believes The Gospel their most important spiritual need is filled for eternity. The RCC preaches a sacramentalism and works based salvation that bastardizes The Gospel and because of this it will never fill a person's greatest spiritual need. As a result, they will always have a disproportional percentage leave.

62 posted on 08/17/2013 10:13:04 AM PDT by wmfights
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To: JCBreckenridge
There is no conflict between Christ and his Church.

Right and HIS Church is based on HIS WORD ALONE! JESUS is THE WORD.

63 posted on 08/17/2013 10:16:56 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Alex Murphy
Note what doesn't appear in the list. The Catholic Church uses Jesus Christ and the Bible as afterthoughts.

Jesus Christ, the spiritual need that seekers know they need but haven't found yet. When those seekers hear The Gospel and Believe that seeking ends and our Born Again brothers and sisters begin the process of sanctification.

64 posted on 08/17/2013 10:21:56 AM PDT by wmfights
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To: NYer

Strange, but I don’t see “Church doesn’t actually believe anything and is just about raising money” in that list. Let’s be honest, for most people the Church looks like just another professional panhandling organization. Every week the priest goes up and tells jokes and the people sing self-promoting and self-celebrating songs which are banal and pointless, and then everybody walks up for a cracker. (That is, after all, the impression one would get from the way Communion is treated by all, including priests and bishops.) The holiest and most important part of the Mass these days is the offertory, when the real god Money is honored. The priest will also actually get a bit worked up when giving a rousing homily about how people don’t give enough money and the church is having a hard time paying the bills. After all, how can they continue doing the hard work of begging for more money if they can’t get enough money to keep the building air conditioned? Who would give money in those conditions?

Sorry, but if the Church wants to inspire people to believe then it first has to act like it believes. The Eucharist will never be seen as holy unless it is treated like it is holy in the liturgy and by those who represent the Church most, i.e. priests, bishops and popes. It is not about “rigid formulas” or being “a relic of the past” but the opposite. The more “relevant” the Church becomes the less meaningful it actually will be, and, frankly, this pope is very relevant. Worship requires reverence and a continual focus on God. If we are going to say that we think God is present in the substance of the Eucharist, but then act just like we do when we eat at Shoney’s when in His presence, then what does that mean? Either we don’t think His presence means much, or that He Himself doesn’t mean much, or we don’t really believe what we say. That converts nobody, and brings nobody to God, and that is the modern Church. Relevance, when it comes to faith and worship, is irrelevant.


65 posted on 08/17/2013 10:27:36 AM PDT by cothrige
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To: piusv
I’m only pointing out that the VII Church has not been sending the signal that the Catholic Church is the ONE true church for 50 years.

The catholic schools made their students repeat it over and over again - like cults do - repeat something that isn't true over and over again. If someone has to try so hard to appear authentic even to the dimmest bulb a light turns brighter. Only those w/no desire to see the light, remain in it because the brainwashing took effect and they continue to embrace it. And, yes, there are consequences to that- eternal consequences. "Man which is evil' leads astray - the very reason for man-made doctrines/teachings.

66 posted on 08/17/2013 10:33:41 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name

Luther added the word “alone” to faith “alone” in your Bible.

BTW, where is the world Bible in the Bible (other than on the cover)??


67 posted on 08/17/2013 11:42:00 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: .45 Long Colt

Sorry, I thought that was implied in my response. Couldn’t agree with you more.


68 posted on 08/17/2013 11:49:08 AM PDT by Prov3456
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To: daniel1212

-— So Luther believed only the Bible could be used in knowing God’s will -—

Which Bible?


69 posted on 08/17/2013 11:53:48 AM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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To: NYer

I find it interesting that the Emmaus experience is mentioned as an example of people who “leave the church.” These were disciples of Jesus, confused by the turn of events and heading home. Jesus, hidden from the them, joins their journey and asks about their conversation (of course he knew exactly what they were discussing). The disciples told the stranger about Jesus, the crucifixion, and the reports from the women of seeing him alive. It was at this point the stranger takes them on a journey through the Scriptures, explaining God’s plan and purpose for sending Jesus. This continued until they reached their destination, where they begged the stranger to stay with them. After breaking bread with them, the disciples recognized that it was Jesus. And they both confessed,

“Weren’t our hearts ablaze within us while He was talking with us on the road and explaining the Scriptures to us?” Luke 24:32 (HCSB)

Jesus was teaching the Word. When you spend time in the Word (with Jesus), you will experience the same thing. When you are in a church where an anointed minister is teaching the Word, you will experience the same thing. Preach the Word boldly, and you will see results. The Word is Alive and Truth. You diminish the Word at your own peril. The churches that are spiritually alive, growing, and changing lives, are the ones that are teaching the Word.

At various times in my life I have had the pleasure of visiting a multitude of churches and denominations. I have met Born Again, Spirit-filled believers in all groups. And I have noticed what a difference a Spirit-filled teacher can make. However, even if you are in a dead church, you have no excuse. God will pour water on a thirsty ground (Isaiah 44:3). If your Bible collects dust on the nightstand, you will not grow spiritually. If your church teaches social justice, or good works, you will become malnourished spiritually. You need fresh Manna, fresh Revelation and Wisdom for every day.

Jesus stands at the door and knocks. He does not kick the door in. Let him in, making him Savior and Lord individually, and for the church family.


70 posted on 08/17/2013 12:29:23 PM PDT by Kandy Atz ("Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.")
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To: Kandy Atz
Another look at this.

[Why I Am Catholic]: Because I Love the Bible [Catholic and Open]
Behold! The Holy Week Treasure Map | Why I Am Catholic
[Why I Am Catholic}: A [Chesterton] Poem and a Prayer for Michaelmas
[Why I Am Catholic]:Welcome to the Ever Persecuted Church! [Catholic Caucus]

[Why I Am Catholic]: Because Vincent de Paul Was Once A Muslim's Slave
[Why I Am Catholic]:Welcome to the Ever Persecuted Church! [Catholic Caucus]
[Why I Am Catholic]: Lent And Holy Week (A Primer) [Catholic Caucus]
[Why I Am Catholic]: Because God Became Man (Despite His Flawed Human Ancestors)
[Why I Am Catholic]: Because of the Protestant Reformers Beliefs On Mary
Why I Am Catholic: For Purgatory, Thank Heavens (Ecumenical)
(Why Am I Catholic?) For Peace While Suffering (A Few Words for Wednesday)
[Why I am Catholic]: Because I Love the Bible
(why am I Catholic?) Because I Awoke from a Long, Bad Dream
Why I Am Catholic: For All the Saints: Bernard of Clairvaux

71 posted on 08/17/2013 12:56:25 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

“Luther added the word “alone” to faith “alone” in your Bible.”

Sorry Salvation. Not in my Bible. Not any of the 40 some versions. Who tells you this stuff?

“BTW, where is the world Bible in the Bible (other than on the cover)??”

It is not. Why does that matter?


72 posted on 08/17/2013 1:02:43 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws - Tacituss)
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To: presently no screen name

“HIS Church is based on HIS WORD ALONE”

Which is why Jesus said, “It’s ok if you toss out Daniel, it really doesn’t count as scripture!”

Oh wait, that was Luther. I get Luther and Jesus mixed up sometimes.


73 posted on 08/17/2013 1:25:57 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

“Christ and are a part of His gathering”

Which is why he explicitly uses the word, “ekklesia” to describe his community. Which he then establishes upon St. Peter, as is recorded in the Book of Matthew.


74 posted on 08/17/2013 1:27:56 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge
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To: NYer

I’m going with #3


75 posted on 08/17/2013 2:04:56 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: presently no screen name
Only those who seek Truth are set free, the others who remain are unteachable.

Seek and obey. Better consistency on doing on my part needed.

76 posted on 08/17/2013 2:12:13 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: FourtySeven
...the supremacy of Scripture as the standard for obedience and establishing truth claims? That's what sola scriptura is right?

Mainly, plus formal and material sufficiency.

77 posted on 08/17/2013 2:16:22 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212
Seek and obey.

Amen! Once they seek, they will find and I believe obedience follows because we WANT to be obedient and not that we HAVE to obey. There is a heart change.

Better consistency on doing on my part needed.

Not everyone listened to Jesus. We can only speak what He did and walk on. Those who are ready will cross our paths. There are many hungry for what we have out there, IMO. They have no peace, no assurance. He wants us/our attention first and foremost to get to know HIM more and more. The more of HIM, the less of me - the more HE can flow through with HIS TRUTH and POWER w/o me/human interference.

78 posted on 08/17/2013 2:38:23 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: JCBreckenridge
I get Luther and Jesus mixed up sometimes.

That's understandable for a catholic. Too much emphasis on Mary and not on JESUS. Get to KNOW HIM and you will never be confused nor open to deception AGAIN.

Eyes OFF of man and EYES ON JESUS ALONE!

79 posted on 08/17/2013 2:42:25 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: JCBreckenridge

“ekklesia” to describe his community. Which he then establishes upon St. Peter, as is recorded in the Book of Matthew.”

Your first half is spot on. It’s the second half that we disagree. He goes on to call Peter, Satan just a few verses later...


80 posted on 08/17/2013 2:52:09 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws - Tacituss)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

Yes, and? Your point being? Are you saying that Jesus’s rebuke of Peter meant that he was lying when he said he founded the Church on Peter?


81 posted on 08/17/2013 3:07:10 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge
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To: presently no screen name

“That’s understandable for a catholic. Too much emphasis on Mary and not on JESUS. Get to KNOW HIM and you will never be confused nor open to deception AGAIN.”

So you’re saying that Luther was wrong to mutilate the book of Daniel?


82 posted on 08/17/2013 3:08:04 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge
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To: JCBreckenridge

No jcb, I’m saying that even though you claim He founded the gathering on Peter, he did not. You can believe whatever you choose to believe.


83 posted on 08/17/2013 3:10:03 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws - Tacituss)
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To: wmfights
It may be a "nit picking point" but I think we are to quick to separate doctrine and spiritual need.

Indeed, thus i stated that the later flows from the former, and indeed "The Gospel is doctrine and it is the failure of the RCC to preach The Gospel that leads so many RC's to Evangelical churches where The Gospel is preached everyday." Though this is not as widespread or in the depth it should be, or once was.

84 posted on 08/17/2013 3:12:06 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Sontagged
The “Church” is not the clergy. It’s the people.

Relative few of which are in Rome, or liberal Prot churches, at least in the West.

85 posted on 08/17/2013 3:13:27 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
Which Bible?

There was no infallible indisputable decree on the canon by Rome till the year Luther died, and whether Luther believed only the Scriptures could be used in knowing God’s will is the issue, while the means by which writings are established as Scripture is another.

Is a assuredly infallible magisterium necessary for this, and does being the steward of Divine revelation, and inheritor of promises of God's presence and preservation, and having historical descent, require or render such to be that infallible interpreter to whom all must submit?

86 posted on 08/17/2013 3:16:25 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: piusv; SkyPilot
I’m only pointing out that the VII Church has not been sending the signal that the Catholic Church is the ONE true church for 50 years.

Actually, Rome has been sending the signal that the Roman Catholic Church is NOT the one true church for much much longer than that.

87 posted on 08/17/2013 3:17:03 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: JCBreckenridge

“It is odd that non Catholics care about the Catholic church. It is like looking into the window at our shop every day when you pass by.”


It’s more like pulling over to look at a car wreck.


88 posted on 08/17/2013 3:39:19 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: daniel1212

You got ahold of some misinformation in my opinion.

Care to source that? Did it come from a website, a tract?


89 posted on 08/17/2013 3:45:27 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

“He founded the gathering on Peter, he did not”

The Book of Matthew says he did. Are you saying the Book of Matthew lies?


90 posted on 08/17/2013 4:01:47 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge
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To: daniel1212

“There was no infallible indisputable decree on the canon”

Then why is the canon at Trent *exactly* identical to the Vulgate? Coincidence?


91 posted on 08/17/2013 4:03:18 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge
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To: daniel1212
Though this is not as widespread or in the depth it should be, or once was.

Amen!

One of the signs that we are winding down and the end is coming is the falling away we are seeing. I can't help but wonder out of the dwindling numbers attending a church how many truly know and believe The Gospel.

92 posted on 08/17/2013 4:16:33 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: bkaycee

hrist founded the Catholic Church on the apostles on Easter Day. Read your Bible. He also ordained all of the apostles as the first Bishops that day.


93 posted on 08/17/2013 4:17:21 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: grimalkin

I see my mistake == you were responding to someone else. Please forgive me.


94 posted on 08/17/2013 4:18:56 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: JCBreckenridge

“The Book of Matthew says he did. Are you saying the Book of Matthew lies?”

It does not.
I did not.


95 posted on 08/17/2013 5:07:53 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws - Tacituss)
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To: NYer
Which of these reasons do you see as most significant?

?

Why CHOOSE???


However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?

Luke 18:8

96 posted on 08/17/2013 5:13:25 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: NYer

Revolting cat!’s One reason why people DO NOT reject the Church:

(1) Religious threads on Free Republic.


97 posted on 08/17/2013 5:14:47 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: HiTech RedNeck
But neither do you.

Spoken like a true heretic!

Return to the Mother Church and all will be forgiven.


(Nothing in the list seemed to address an arrogant hautiness; did it...)

98 posted on 08/17/2013 5:15:18 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: GOP Poet
I’d recommend reading up on how Protestantism was first birthed and why before making such ridiculous statements. That would just be a start.

Oh.. Please!!

Let ME help!!



Pope Stephen VI (896–897), who had his predecessor Pope Formosus exhumed, tried, de-fingered, briefly reburied, and thrown in the Tiber.[1]

Pope John XII (955–964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.

Pope Benedict IX (1032–1044, 1045, 1047–1048), who "sold" the Papacy

Pope Boniface VIII (1294–1303), who is lampooned in Dante's Divine Comedy

Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), who complained that he did not hear enough screaming when Cardinals who had conspired against him were tortured.[2]

Pope Alexander VI (1492–1503), a Borgia, who was guilty of nepotism and whose unattended corpse swelled until it could barely fit in a coffin.[3]

Pope Leo X (1513–1521), a spendthrift member of the Medici family who once spent 1/7 of his predecessors' reserves on a single ceremony[4]

Pope Clement VII (1523–1534), also a Medici, whose power-politicking with France, Spain, and Germany got Rome sacked.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bad_Popes

99 posted on 08/17/2013 5:16:49 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: JCBreckenridge
To us, it’s a requirement that we go.

Dang!

That's too bad!


 

John 6:28-29

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


100 posted on 08/17/2013 5:18:21 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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