Skip to comments.Pope Francis on 10 Reasons Why People Reject the Church
Posted on 08/17/2013 2:06:44 AM PDT by NYer
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I think he is spot on about not only the Roman denomination, but every Church of every kind.
Christ "founded" the universal Church and is the head of the universal Church. Church = called out ones.
“The conflict is very simple. You see yourself as an individual going at it alone with Christ. We see ourselves as a community. “
Those of us who know Christ and are a part of His gathering understand that salvation happens one soul at a time, but we are then placed into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit. We are now part of His gathering of people for His own possession. Community is crucial. We are commanded not to forsake the gathering of ourselves regularly.
You've cited what is oft quoted as being the reason the Catholic Church is the "one true church" and I think it's important to examine exactly what Christ meant when he said to Peter, "on this rock I will build my church."
Was Peter, the man what Christ intended when he said "on this rock I will build my church?
Or what it really the TRUTH that Peter spoke upon which Christ said "on this rock I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. ."??
Jesus asked him, "Who do you say I am?" to which Peter replied "You are the Christ" (Messiah.) Jesus often used parables to make his point, as I believe he did in this case also. Assuming Jesus used a parable, Peter's response to Jesus was the Truth, and therefore the Truth upon which His church is built.
We could also take a logical approach in coming to a conclusion. Therefore, in this case what makes the most sense? Was Jesus saying to Peter He was building His church around the man, Peter, or was he saying He was building His church upon the Truth Peter spoke? If the Church were to be built on Peter (as Catholics claim due to Peter being the first Pope) then that would mean Jesus rebuked the 11 other Disciples and their teaching from that moment forward was invalid. If that were true, we'd have a completely different Bible, would we not?
The only logical conclusion therefore is that Jesus followed his method of teaching using parables and examples. Of course Jesus didn't say the other eleven Disciples teaching was wrong. Jesus was simply stating (IMO) this His church would be built upon the Truth that Peter spoke, that Jesus Christ is our Messiah.
The proof of that Truth and the conclusion I draw is contained throughout Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. All of which tell the exact same story of Christ.
None of the above is to say that the Catholic Church is the only church, nor is it intended as a slam against the Catholic Church either. First and foremost in any Church is "Who is Jesus? He is the way, the truth and the life. None shall enter heaven except through him. He is our Lord and Savior. He suffered and died for our Sins. He was buried, and on the third day he was Resurrected, defeating death so that we may live. He is our Lord and Savior."
Any church with this as their core message has built their church upon the Rock, the Truth that Peter spoke. (IMHO.)
Plenty, I was born, raised, received my first communion, was confirmed, attended pre-cana and was married in the Catholic Church.
Now that my credentials have been established, let's have yours.
You assume meaning in my posts that I (a) did not write or (b) intend.
Stop playing the victim of some unknown slight whenever someone has a differing opinion than yours and engage in the conversation (or not.)
Jesus is The Word and the final authority!
Wrong. There is no misunderstanding their man made teachings which oppose God's Word.
You have no idea how lame your comment is to anyone born into it and spend 2/3 of their life 'in it'.
Now I am 'in Christ' something you have no idea about and won't until you give up man-made doctrines/teachings for HIS WORD ALONE.
We are getting a new chapel in our new church.Awesome, Salvation. That's cool....
It may be a "nit picking point" but I think we are to quick to separate doctrine and spiritual need. It seems to me that The Gospel is doctrine and it is the failure of the RCC to preach The Gospel that leads so many RC's to Evangelical churches where The Gospel is preached everyday. Once a person believes The Gospel their most important spiritual need is filled for eternity. The RCC preaches a sacramentalism and works based salvation that bastardizes The Gospel and because of this it will never fill a person's greatest spiritual need. As a result, they will always have a disproportional percentage leave.
Right and HIS Church is based on HIS WORD ALONE! JESUS is THE WORD.
Jesus Christ, the spiritual need that seekers know they need but haven't found yet. When those seekers hear The Gospel and Believe that seeking ends and our Born Again brothers and sisters begin the process of sanctification.
Strange, but I don’t see “Church doesn’t actually believe anything and is just about raising money” in that list. Let’s be honest, for most people the Church looks like just another professional panhandling organization. Every week the priest goes up and tells jokes and the people sing self-promoting and self-celebrating songs which are banal and pointless, and then everybody walks up for a cracker. (That is, after all, the impression one would get from the way Communion is treated by all, including priests and bishops.) The holiest and most important part of the Mass these days is the offertory, when the real god Money is honored. The priest will also actually get a bit worked up when giving a rousing homily about how people don’t give enough money and the church is having a hard time paying the bills. After all, how can they continue doing the hard work of begging for more money if they can’t get enough money to keep the building air conditioned? Who would give money in those conditions?
Sorry, but if the Church wants to inspire people to believe then it first has to act like it believes. The Eucharist will never be seen as holy unless it is treated like it is holy in the liturgy and by those who represent the Church most, i.e. priests, bishops and popes. It is not about “rigid formulas” or being “a relic of the past” but the opposite. The more “relevant” the Church becomes the less meaningful it actually will be, and, frankly, this pope is very relevant. Worship requires reverence and a continual focus on God. If we are going to say that we think God is present in the substance of the Eucharist, but then act just like we do when we eat at Shoney’s when in His presence, then what does that mean? Either we don’t think His presence means much, or that He Himself doesn’t mean much, or we don’t really believe what we say. That converts nobody, and brings nobody to God, and that is the modern Church. Relevance, when it comes to faith and worship, is irrelevant.
The catholic schools made their students repeat it over and over again - like cults do - repeat something that isn't true over and over again. If someone has to try so hard to appear authentic even to the dimmest bulb a light turns brighter. Only those w/no desire to see the light, remain in it because the brainwashing took effect and they continue to embrace it. And, yes, there are consequences to that- eternal consequences. "Man which is evil' leads astray - the very reason for man-made doctrines/teachings.
Luther added the word “alone” to faith “alone” in your Bible.
BTW, where is the world Bible in the Bible (other than on the cover)??
Sorry, I thought that was implied in my response. Couldn’t agree with you more.
-— So Luther believed only the Bible could be used in knowing God’s will -—
I find it interesting that the Emmaus experience is mentioned as an example of people who “leave the church.” These were disciples of Jesus, confused by the turn of events and heading home. Jesus, hidden from the them, joins their journey and asks about their conversation (of course he knew exactly what they were discussing). The disciples told the stranger about Jesus, the crucifixion, and the reports from the women of seeing him alive. It was at this point the stranger takes them on a journey through the Scriptures, explaining God’s plan and purpose for sending Jesus. This continued until they reached their destination, where they begged the stranger to stay with them. After breaking bread with them, the disciples recognized that it was Jesus. And they both confessed,
Werent our hearts ablaze within us while He was talking with us on the road and explaining the Scriptures to us? Luke 24:32 (HCSB)
Jesus was teaching the Word. When you spend time in the Word (with Jesus), you will experience the same thing. When you are in a church where an anointed minister is teaching the Word, you will experience the same thing. Preach the Word boldly, and you will see results. The Word is Alive and Truth. You diminish the Word at your own peril. The churches that are spiritually alive, growing, and changing lives, are the ones that are teaching the Word.
At various times in my life I have had the pleasure of visiting a multitude of churches and denominations. I have met Born Again, Spirit-filled believers in all groups. And I have noticed what a difference a Spirit-filled teacher can make. However, even if you are in a dead church, you have no excuse. God will pour water on a thirsty ground (Isaiah 44:3). If your Bible collects dust on the nightstand, you will not grow spiritually. If your church teaches social justice, or good works, you will become malnourished spiritually. You need fresh Manna, fresh Revelation and Wisdom for every day.
Jesus stands at the door and knocks. He does not kick the door in. Let him in, making him Savior and Lord individually, and for the church family.
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“Luther added the word alone to faith alone in your Bible.”
Sorry Salvation. Not in my Bible. Not any of the 40 some versions. Who tells you this stuff?
“BTW, where is the world Bible in the Bible (other than on the cover)??”
It is not. Why does that matter?
“HIS Church is based on HIS WORD ALONE”
Which is why Jesus said, “It’s ok if you toss out Daniel, it really doesn’t count as scripture!”
Oh wait, that was Luther. I get Luther and Jesus mixed up sometimes.
“Christ and are a part of His gathering”
Which is why he explicitly uses the word, “ekklesia” to describe his community. Which he then establishes upon St. Peter, as is recorded in the Book of Matthew.
I’m going with #3
Seek and obey. Better consistency on doing on my part needed.
Mainly, plus formal and material sufficiency.
Amen! Once they seek, they will find and I believe obedience follows because we WANT to be obedient and not that we HAVE to obey. There is a heart change.
Better consistency on doing on my part needed.
Not everyone listened to Jesus. We can only speak what He did and walk on. Those who are ready will cross our paths. There are many hungry for what we have out there, IMO. They have no peace, no assurance. He wants us/our attention first and foremost to get to know HIM more and more. The more of HIM, the less of me - the more HE can flow through with HIS TRUTH and POWER w/o me/human interference.
That's understandable for a catholic. Too much emphasis on Mary and not on JESUS. Get to KNOW HIM and you will never be confused nor open to deception AGAIN.
Eyes OFF of man and EYES ON JESUS ALONE!
“ekklesia to describe his community. Which he then establishes upon St. Peter, as is recorded in the Book of Matthew.”
Your first half is spot on. It’s the second half that we disagree. He goes on to call Peter, Satan just a few verses later...
Yes, and? Your point being? Are you saying that Jesus’s rebuke of Peter meant that he was lying when he said he founded the Church on Peter?
“That’s understandable for a catholic. Too much emphasis on Mary and not on JESUS. Get to KNOW HIM and you will never be confused nor open to deception AGAIN.”
So you’re saying that Luther was wrong to mutilate the book of Daniel?
No jcb, I’m saying that even though you claim He founded the gathering on Peter, he did not. You can believe whatever you choose to believe.
Indeed, thus i stated that the later flows from the former, and indeed "The Gospel is doctrine and it is the failure of the RCC to preach The Gospel that leads so many RC's to Evangelical churches where The Gospel is preached everyday." Though this is not as widespread or in the depth it should be, or once was.
Relative few of which are in Rome, or liberal Prot churches, at least in the West.
There was no infallible indisputable decree on the canon by Rome till the year Luther died, and whether Luther believed only the Scriptures could be used in knowing Gods will is the issue, while the means by which writings are established as Scripture is another.
Is a assuredly infallible magisterium necessary for this, and does being the steward of Divine revelation, and inheritor of promises of God's presence and preservation, and having historical descent, require or render such to be that infallible interpreter to whom all must submit?
Actually, Rome has been sending the signal that the Roman Catholic Church is NOT the one true church for much much longer than that.
“It is odd that non Catholics care about the Catholic church. It is like looking into the window at our shop every day when you pass by.”
It’s more like pulling over to look at a car wreck.
You got ahold of some misinformation in my opinion.
Care to source that? Did it come from a website, a tract?
“He founded the gathering on Peter, he did not”
The Book of Matthew says he did. Are you saying the Book of Matthew lies?
“There was no infallible indisputable decree on the canon”
Then why is the canon at Trent *exactly* identical to the Vulgate? Coincidence?
One of the signs that we are winding down and the end is coming is the falling away we are seeing. I can't help but wonder out of the dwindling numbers attending a church how many truly know and believe The Gospel.
hrist founded the Catholic Church on the apostles on Easter Day. Read your Bible. He also ordained all of the apostles as the first Bishops that day.
I see my mistake == you were responding to someone else. Please forgive me.
“The Book of Matthew says he did. Are you saying the Book of Matthew lies?”
It does not.
I did not.
However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?
Revolting cat!’s One reason why people DO NOT reject the Church:
(1) Religious threads on Free Republic.
Spoken like a true heretic!
Return to the Mother Church and all will be forgiven.
(Nothing in the list seemed to address an arrogant hautiness; did it...)
Let ME help!!
Pope John XII (955964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.
Pope Benedict IX (10321044, 1045, 10471048), who "sold" the Papacy
That's too bad!
Jesus answered, The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.