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Calling Priests "Father"
Catholic Answers ^ | August 31, 2013 | Tim Staples

Posted on 09/01/2013 2:10:47 PM PDT by NYer

The other day I received a rather lengthy email from a fellow responding to a chapter in my book, Nuts and Bolts - A Practical How-To Guide for Explaining and Defending the Catholic Faith, specifically responding to my defense of calling priests "father."

Score One Up For the Protestants

I have answered this question hundreds of times over the years, but this fellow's critique caught my attention first of all because he used my own style of argumentation against me. I liked that. "Matthew 23:9," he reminded me, "says, ‘Call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.’ What would Jesus have to say to you, Tim, to get you to believe you can't call your priest 'father,' other than by saying, 'Call no man your father on earth?'"

I have to believe this fellow has heard me speak before because I have often (too often?) used a similar line, "What else would Jesus have to say..." to argue in favor of various Catholic doctrines. In fact, I used that very approach in my debate with Dr. Peter Barnes on the Eucharist in Sydney, Australia, when we were discussing John 6:53.

Cudos to my interlocutor at this point, but that would be, quite frankly, about the only round he had in his magazine.

An Earthy Argument

In Nuts and Bolts, I point out the fact that notwithstanding Jesus's words in Matthew 23, St. Paul calls people "on the earth" father in Ephesians 6:2-4:

"Honor your father and mother" (this is the first commandment with a promise), "that it may be well with you and that you may live long on the earth." Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

Is this a contradiction?

Many will respond at this point and claim Jesus is not just condemning calling anyone father; rather, he is condemning calling religious leaders "father." As I explain in my book, this is easily dismissed when we consider the words of our Lord from Luke 16:24:

And he (the rich man) called out, "Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame."

Abraham is clearly a "religious leader." And Jesus is not alone in referring to him "father." St. James refers to Abraham as "father" in James 2:21, while St. Paul refers to Abraham as "father" seven times in Romans 4:1-18. If you believe in the inspiration of Sacred Scripture, St. James and St. Paul cannot contradict Jesus in Matthew 23:9.

At this point, my new friend argued something slightly different from what I've heard before. He said words to the effect of: "The key here is found in the words 'on the earth.' Abraham was not on earth. So Jesus was not simply condemning giving the 'title' of 'father' to men, but giving it to religious leaders who are on earth. And that is precisely what Catholics do!"

The Catholic Response

The first problem here is Jesus did not say "give no spiritual leader on earth the title father." He simply said, "Call no man on earth your father." More on that in a moment. For now, let's follow the argument. So now our Protestant friend is saying it is okay to call our dads "father" because they are not "spiritual leaders" in the Church. We can also call our spiritual forefathers like Abraham or Jacob (John 4:12) father because they are no longer "on earth."

Sounds okay so far, but here's the problem. In I John 2:13-14, St. John refers to the leaders of the church in Ephesus to whom he is most likely writing as "fathers" twice. And notice he gives them the title "father."

I am writing to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, children, because you know the Father. I write to you, fathers, because you know him who is from the beginning…

Notice, he does not say they are "fathers" because they are married with children. They are "fathers," spiritually speaking. And they are presumably "on the earth."

In Acts 7:1-2, St. Stephen, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, calls both Abraham and the elders of Jerusalem "father" in the same breath:

And the high priest said, "Is this so?" And Stephen said: "Brethren and fathers, hear me. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham…"

And in I Corinthians 4:14-15, St. Paul refers to himself as "father":

I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

What Does the Bible Say?

What we need to do is get back to Matthew 23:9 and let the surrounding verses clarify things for us:

(8) But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren. (9) And call no man your father... for you have one Father... (10) Neither be called masters, for you have one master, the Christ.

We have "one teacher," and yet, many are called “teacher” in the New Testament (see James 3:1; Ephesians 4:11, etc.). We have "one master," or leader, and yet, we have many "leaders" in the body of Christ to whom we are called to submit (Hebrews 13:17 uses the same Greek root for "leader" when it says, "Obey your leaders and submit to them...").

Ultimately, the key to understanding all of these seemingly contradictory texts is found in a proper understanding of the nature of the Body of Christ.

I am going to call upon the Douay-Rheims translation of Ephesians 3:14-15 to help me out here:

For this cause I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom all paternity (Gr. – paternia – “fatherhood”) in heaven and earth is named.

God, the Father, is our one true Father. All other fatherhood, be it a father "on earth," spiritual leaders in the Church, or our spiritual forefathers in heaven, participates in the Father's unique Fatherhood and represents it to us. They neither take away nor add to this one unique Fatherhood; they establish it on the earth.

The context of Matthew 23 emphasizes the sin of pride among the scribes and Pharisees. They loved to be called “teacher”, “father”, or “Rabbi," but their pride pointed men to themselves rather than to God the Father from whom they received true fatherhood and in whom their fatherhood subsisted. Outside of God the Father, there are no fathers at all in the true sense of the term. But in God, we have all sorts of true "fathers."

Ultimately, Jesus is condemning the usurpation of the fatherhood of God in Matthew's Gospel, not the proper participation in that fatherhood.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholicism; father; romancatholic; theology
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1 posted on 09/01/2013 2:10:47 PM PDT by NYer
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To: Tax-chick; GregB; Berlin_Freeper; SumProVita; narses; bboop; SevenofNine; Ronaldus Magnus; tiki; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 09/01/2013 2:11:11 PM PDT by NYer ( "Run from places of sin as from the plague."--St John Climacus)
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To: NYer

Just love the Reason and Logic in Catholic Theology. We are so missing “Common Sense” in the world today!!! Thanks for posting.


3 posted on 09/01/2013 2:19:04 PM PDT by savagesusie (Right Reason According to Nature = Just Law)
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To: NYer

Even if someone is not catholic, must that person call the catholic priest “father”? Or, how about a muslim imam, is that man to be called by his religious title by a non-muslim? And, if the individual refuses to call those men by their titles, what then?


4 posted on 09/01/2013 2:19:35 PM PDT by MeneMeneTekelUpharsin (Freedom is the freedom to discipline yourself so others don't have to do it for you.)
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To: NYer

One earthly father, one heavenly one.


5 posted on 09/01/2013 2:26:15 PM PDT by Past Your Eyes (You can't force people to care. Sometimes I don't myself.)
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To: NYer
"The first problem here is Jesus did not say "give no spiritual leader on earth the title father."

Being as how everyone has an earthly father, it would therefore be the only logical interpretation.

6 posted on 09/01/2013 2:31:18 PM PDT by BipolarBob
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To: MeneMeneTekelUpharsin

Well apparently I’m good calling my dad “Old fart”.


7 posted on 09/01/2013 2:33:00 PM PDT by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: NYer
It's Fadda.

as in....is it true Fadda, did Rocky turn chicken?


8 posted on 09/01/2013 2:35:48 PM PDT by Vaquero (Don't pick a fight with an old guy. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.)
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To: NYer

Reason number 130249 for using Douay Rheims.


9 posted on 09/01/2013 2:36:06 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge
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To: MeneMeneTekelUpharsin
Even if someone is not catholic, must that person call the catholic priest “father”?

Catholics aren't even the only ones to use this title. What about Episcopalian priests? Should a Catholic call an Episcopalian or Anglican priest "Father?"

10 posted on 09/01/2013 2:36:34 PM PDT by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: BipolarBob

“Being as how everyone has an earthly father, it would therefore be the only logical interpretation.”

I don’t see the word ‘religious leader’ anywhere in there.

I guess we should wait for the next edition of the bible to insert call no religious man on earth, father.

The truth is rather more radical.


11 posted on 09/01/2013 2:37:32 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge
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To: fwdude

We tend to use Reverend, which is what they call themselves to avoid confusion. Say Rev. so-and-so.


12 posted on 09/01/2013 2:38:47 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge
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To: NYer

I don’t get too wound up over this sort of thing. I assume God knows the difference. I’m not even Catholic and I call priests “Father” out of basic respect the same way I call a surgeon, “Doctor”.

With Protestant ministers it varies with the individual. The minister that married my wife and I was a longtime friend so I just call him by name but my wife called him “Pastor”.


13 posted on 09/01/2013 2:39:33 PM PDT by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: NYer; Heart-Rest; HoosierDammit; red irish; fastrock; NorthernCrunchyCon; UMCRevMom@aol.com; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

14 posted on 09/01/2013 2:44:02 PM PDT by narses
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To: JCBreckenridge

I don’t use the term Reverend. It’s used only once in the Bible and then in reference to God.


15 posted on 09/01/2013 2:44:07 PM PDT by BipolarBob
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To: JCBreckenridge

The one Episcopal priest I knew went by “Father.” I protested to the mutual fried of ours that he wasn’t anoyone’s father, never having married. I was told to call him “Ralph.”


16 posted on 09/01/2013 2:45:45 PM PDT by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: MeneMeneTekelUpharsin

That’s a good question.

I would say, that if someone isn’t a Catholic, there isn’t any moral obligation to call a priest “Father”, in a technical sense. It seems to me though, in a social setting it would be rather odd and awkward if one didnt.

For example, can you imagine the scene if one is in a group of people where a priest is present, and all are engaged in polite conversation. To address the preist in said conversation would be a bit awkward to say “Mister Thomas” when everyone else is calling him “Father Thomas”.

Similarly for an Imam (should anyone find oneself in the company of Muslims and their Imam).

So for the sake of a polite conversation I’d say it should be done. And perhaps that’s why it’s good this apologetic was posted. I would hope our non-Catholic brethren could put their mind at ease about this particular topic. Even if such do not want to become Catholic.

At least, one need not worry about calling a man “father”, regardless if a person is Catholic or not.


17 posted on 09/01/2013 2:46:53 PM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: BipolarBob

You’re Catholic? Fwdude was asking about Catholics.


18 posted on 09/01/2013 2:47:39 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge
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To: FourtySeven

“Similarly for an Imam (should anyone find oneself in the company of Muslims and their Imam).”

I would politely excuse myself rather than eat with an Imam.


19 posted on 09/01/2013 2:48:52 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge
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To: JCBreckenridge

Could you please pass the ham, Mullah?


20 posted on 09/01/2013 2:52:48 PM PDT by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: NYer

If nuns are called “sisters” why not call priests “brothers”?


21 posted on 09/01/2013 2:53:31 PM PDT by Proud2BeRight
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To: FourtySeven

Avoiding social awkwardness seems to be “the easy way” of which we have been warned not to pursue. We are also properly admonished to make no oaths, none at all. I know that most would consider such a formality to be harmless, but God takes it very seriously, nevertheless.


22 posted on 09/01/2013 2:54:35 PM PDT by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: cripplecreek

HAHAHA. I’m sorry - I used to be tolerant, but after Hasan’s sudden Jihadi syndrome here in Ft Hood, I had enough.

I have near and dear friends who mean the world to me working at the bases. It could have very easily been them who were killed.


23 posted on 09/01/2013 2:59:44 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge
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To: NYer

Let’s also remember, not everything done today in the Church was done in the first century Church. I mean that’s just a fact. I don’t know why that fact isn’t used more often as an apologetic. There’s nothing wrong with admitting the Church today doesn’t exactly resemble the Church from the first century.

So, when Jesus was saying these words, it’s not like He was describing priests. He wasn’t and even couldn’t have been, as the Church wasn’t even set up yet. And even after Pentecost, when it was set up, I don’t think the first priests back then were called “father” in a spiritual sense. Those first priests were probably married if anything.

So it’s absolutely rediculous to apply this passage to the title of a modern day Catholic priest. It wasn’t speaking about that kind of use of the term “father” at all.


24 posted on 09/01/2013 3:00:16 PM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: Proud2BeRight

The male equivalent of a Nun is a Monk.


25 posted on 09/01/2013 3:00:59 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge
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To: Proud2BeRight

The male analogue of a nun is not a priest, but a monk, and in the Latin West, monks are called “brother” just as nuns are called “sister”.

In the Orthodox East, both priests and monks are addressed as “Father”, and nuns are addressed as “Mother”. Deacons are addressed as “Father Deacon [Christian name]”, but written of simply as “Deacon [Christian name]”.


26 posted on 09/01/2013 3:06:22 PM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know...)
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To: fwdude

I do not think there is anything wrong with being polite as long as Truth is not sacrificed for politeness.

And as I do believe, this article and/or what I posted above clearly shows how, even if one does not wish to be Catholic, you aren’t going to offend God if you call a priest “father”.


27 posted on 09/01/2013 3:12:33 PM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: MeneMeneTekelUpharsin
Even if someone is not catholic, must that person call the catholic priest “father”?

Let's expand the question: "Even if someone did not vote for Obama, must that person call him "President"?

both are titles of respect for the office, regardless of the faith one practices or the party to which one belongs. Should a christian call a rabbi, "Rabbi"?

28 posted on 09/01/2013 3:16:13 PM PDT by NYer ( "Run from places of sin as from the plague."--St John Climacus)
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To: FourtySeven
And as I do believe, this article and/or what I posted above clearly shows how, even if one does not wish to be Catholic, you aren’t going to offend God if you call a priest “father”.

As with many practical Truths in scripture, it all depends on what is known. Certainly, someone ignorant of scripture and Christian principles will not be called to account by violating such a specific command to "call no man on earth father," but those cognizant of such an admonition are committing a sin of doubtfulness if they violate their consciences, no matter what YOU may think of the issue.

29 posted on 09/01/2013 3:19:19 PM PDT by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: Proud2BeRight

Because they take different vows.


30 posted on 09/01/2013 3:25:53 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NYer
With his obvious misunderstanding of the Scriptures I don't think I would rely on the author of this piece for answers to anything.

Just to take a quote at random:

“Sounds okay so far, but here's the problem. In I John 2:13-14, St. John refers to the leaders of the church in Ephesus to whom he is most likely writing as “fathers” twice. And notice he gives them the title “father.””

Uhhh...No, John isn't using “father” as a title. John also addresses his letter to young men and young/little children in the same sense as to “fathers”. John speaks to their level of spiritual maturity and experience in vss. 13, 14 and even calls all them “my children” in vs.1 of chap. 2.

In no way does John use “father” as a title anymore than “young men, little children” is used as a title.

The rest of the article is even worse.

31 posted on 09/01/2013 3:26:58 PM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: NYer

**For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.**

One nail in the coffin.


32 posted on 09/01/2013 3:31:02 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NYer

**Ultimately, Jesus is condemning the usurpation of the fatherhood of God in Matthew’s Gospel, not the proper participation in that fatherhood.**

Secon nail in the coffin lid.

Case closed.


33 posted on 09/01/2013 3:32:05 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
Case closed.

And thus the words of Yeshua are made null. Just as the word of YHWH was made null in the past.

Teaching as Gospel the traditions of men.

34 posted on 09/01/2013 3:55:04 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1

I guess you missed that I used the words of Jesus! Along with the words of St. Paul.

Did you miss that?


35 posted on 09/01/2013 3:58:30 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Second nail


36 posted on 09/01/2013 3:58:54 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NYer

I call my biological father “Daddy.” I call my pastor “Father Gary.” (That’s his surname. When we had an African pastor, I called him “Father Paul” and didn’t attempt to pronounce his last name.)

I don’t think Jesus wanted us to be in a fuss over this. If we are, we’ve misunderstood Him. We use family titles for all sorts of people. My boss in Hispanic Ministry is the children’s Abuela. Asuncion is “la hermana de mi alma” and Kathleen’s Tia. The cute guitarist with Grupo Kerygma is “Brother Francisco.”

The Catholic Church is about making everyone into one family.


37 posted on 09/01/2013 4:20:42 PM PDT by Tax-chick (One drink away from telling everyone what I really think.)
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To: NYer

Of all the objections to Catholicism, this is the Charlie Browniest.


38 posted on 09/01/2013 4:29:24 PM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas (Isaiah 22:22, Matthew 16:19, Revelation 3:7)
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To: NYer
The article starts out with a false teaching anyway. It’s another obfuscation to get the people to focus on something other then the underlying error. ALL believers are priests after the resurrection of Christ.

1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

The veil was torn and there is now only one High Priest, the Lord Jesus Christ, and all believers are priests.

The RCC has set up a false, unscriptural, hierarchy so the debate of calling a false office holder by any name is moot.

39 posted on 09/01/2013 4:55:46 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: JCBreckenridge
Reason number 130249 for using Douay Rheims.

That doesn't make any sense...The official Catholic bible is the NAB...If it was any good, your religion would have stuck with it...

40 posted on 09/01/2013 5:06:37 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: NYer

As a Catholic, I say, “Who cares?” With all of the important matters in this world and in our individual faiths, arguing over addressing a priest as Father, is as dumb as the old argument over how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.

I am a volunteer chaplain’s assistant in a non-sectarian hospital. The current hospital chaplain happens to be a Catholic priest. His predecessor was a Protestant. The Catholic chaplain’s assistants address him as Father, and the Protestant and Jewish chaplain’s assistants address him as Chaplain. The issue of how to address this priest has never come up.


41 posted on 09/01/2013 5:08:29 PM PDT by CdMGuy
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To: cripplecreek
The minister that married my wife and I

Whose last name does everyone use???

42 posted on 09/01/2013 5:09:57 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: MeneMeneTekelUpharsin

A priest may be addressed as Reverend or Canon if he happens to be one. Only liberals refuse to use propers, time honored titles.


43 posted on 09/01/2013 5:11:37 PM PDT by pbear8 (the Lord is my light and my salvation)
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To: NYer

I always thought that verse was a warning not to lend your allegiances and submit to leadership blindly,especially in the light of the surrounding context of verses. True Christian leaders and preachers would always point to Christ and to the true Father in heaven. Any submission to these men that goes beyond scriptural orthodoxy or any course of action or life style that these men may advocate that goes beyond Christian teaching was to be avoided and these “leaders” shunned...hence “Call no man Father”.

I don’t think Christ was advocating that we do away with “father” type relationships...both spiritual and familial in the sense of the raising of the physical or the spiritually immature, mentoring relationships as well as behavioral and spiritual modeling that the mentally or spiritually immature would be encouraged to emulate.


44 posted on 09/01/2013 5:12:41 PM PDT by mdmathis6
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To: NYer
God, the Father, is our one true Father. All other fatherhood, be it a father "on earth," spiritual leaders in the Church, or our spiritual forefathers in heaven, participates in the Father's unique Fatherhood and represents it to us. They neither take away nor add to this one unique Fatherhood; they establish it on the earth.

*********************************

Excellent article, NYer. Thank you.

45 posted on 09/01/2013 5:12:49 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Iscool

“The official Catholic bible is the NAB”

Last I checked the Catholic church exists outside of America.


46 posted on 09/01/2013 5:14:32 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Stell Dir vor: Der Praesident sagt, es ist Krieg, und keiner geht hin.)
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To: mdmathis6

Exactly so. The authority of our fathers here on earth stems from the authority of our Father in heaven. THIS is the radical notion.


47 posted on 09/01/2013 5:15:35 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Stell Dir vor: Der Praesident sagt, es ist Krieg, und keiner geht hin.)
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To: CynicalBear

“ALL believers are priests after the resurrection of Christ.

Then why did Jesus choose disciples?


48 posted on 09/01/2013 5:16:52 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Stell Dir vor: Der Praesident sagt, es ist Krieg, und keiner geht hin.)
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To: FourtySeven
And as I do believe, this article and/or what I posted above clearly shows how, even if one does not wish to be Catholic, you aren’t going to offend God if you call a priest “father”.

The article doesn't show any such thing...If it did, there would be multitudes of millions of non Catholic Christians agreeing with you...And they aren't...

God may not be offended, but it's going to tick him off...I won't call any spiritual leader Father...Anytime, anywhere...

49 posted on 09/01/2013 5:17:10 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Salvation
I guess you missed that I used the words of Jesus! Along with the words of St. Paul.

Yes, even as the Pharisees used the words of Moses...

50 posted on 09/01/2013 5:19:51 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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