Forged Documents and Papal Power (A Former Catholic Nun)

http://www.CatholicConcerns.com ^ | June 2002 | Mary Ann Collins

[roamer_1]

You can't be asking for the wholesale repudiation of Gratian and Aquinas.

Of course not - I have already discarded the whole lot (your tradition in it's entirety!).

But when one does not take great pains to pare out such infections as best as one can, One should expect the value of what one wants to preserve to go down in value due to it's impure form. Is it I who must trace every quote in Aquinas or Augustine to be certain of the veracity of their claims? It it left to me to ferret out every nuance and supposition to discover their validity? Apparently so... And thus I will not pretend to be impressed, and will move on to something which is maintained with veracity.

And I am well aware of Gratian's Decretum in it's form and function, by the way. I have read it all, or at least a version thereof. And like any such work, it's tendency is to accumulate, not correct.

Despite being the standard textbook for students of canon law during the Middle Ages, the Decretum was never recognized by the Church

Yet another fault - That such a work does not warrant official scrutiny and endorsement should be a warning.

This whole ball 'o wax was made defunct by the very buttoned-up and simplified Code of Canon Law (1917) which replaced it, and the next revision of Canon Law (1983) which replaced that.

And I wonder if the ideas of psuedo-Isadore if not the text itself does not remain... It would not surprise me in the least.

But is it irreparable? No.

But then, is it repaired? No.

[Alex Murphy]

A lot of protestants have been on a guilt trip since the reformation. They know the Catholic Church is the One, True, Church, but they refuse to admit it as such. That would mean they have been living a lie for a few hundred years. Hardly ever does a Catholic bash protestants. They knew they are living the truth. And that’s the reason of very little protestant bashing.

When did all this happen? JCBreckenridge had only been gone for maybe 18 hours.

[metmom]

Ouch.

And yet there are others left.....

[campaignPete R-CT]

It is only by God’s Grace that there is so much unity among Christians. Imagine where we’d be without the Nicene Creed. Back in the year 300 with people insisting that Jesus was a spirit and that he only had the appearance of a man. Or that he was created or not eternal.

and here is the “anathema” that was in the original of 325 AD:
[But those who say: ‘There was a time when he was not;’ and ‘He was not before he was made;’ and ‘He was made out of nothing,’ or ‘He is of another substance’ or ‘essence,’ or ‘The Son of God is created,’ or ‘changeable,’ or ‘alterable’—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.]

If it is forged, we are toast.

[RobbyS]

I fail to see that “history” shows the popes to be more culpable than their adversaries. The papacy is indeed a Court which like all courts has come into being because of the felt need to resolve disputes. That is one basis for Newman’s notion of development. The papacy came into being because there was a need for it. The bishop of Rome became the bishop of bishops because there was a felt need for it, and it has endured because that need remains. Like Peter’s leadership of the disciples, it happened accidentally. It has endured accidentally. The real question why no alternative has appeared which works so powerfully on events, so persuasively on men’s minds.

[SumProVita]

....it happened accidentally. It has endured accidentally.

___________________________________

Can you prove this?

[Iscool]

The authority claims of Roman Catholicism ultimately devolve upon the institution of the papacy. The papacy is the center and source from which all authority flows for Roman Catholicism. Rome has long claimed that this institution was established by Christ and has been in force in the Church from the very beginning. But the historical record gives a very different picture. This institution was promoted primarily through the falsification of historical fact through the extensive use of forgeries as Thomas Aquinas' apologetic for the papacy demonstrates.

Forgery is its foundation. As an institution it was a much later development in Church history, beginning with the Gregorian reforms of pope Gregory VII in the 11th century and was restricted completely to the West. The Eastern Chruch never accepted the false claims of the Roman Church and refused to submit to its insistence that the Bishop of Rome was supreme ruler of the Church. This they knew was not true to the historical record and was a perversion of the true teaching of Scripture, the papal exegesis of which was not taught by the Church fathers (For an analysis of the church father's interpretation of the rock of Matthew 16:18 please refer to the article on that subject on this web page)

Webster's page>\

This seems to go against the grain of your reference to Aquinas...

Rome's first true pope is Gregory I (590-604). Very little of Rome's glory remained during his papacy. Even the imperial palaces were in sad disrepair. Most of the city's elite left Rome a cultural and urban slum. Gregory still distributed the dole and administered the city. Arian Lombards threatened the city. Gregory raised armies to fight the Lombards and raised funds to repair the city. Still, he did not have the power or prestige later popes would hold.

Interesting material here

While I don't endorse the the Nazarene Church denomination (the messenger) they have a lengthy piece here on forgeries of the Catholic religion including forgeries of relics and miracles...Very interesting read...

Samples of the “seed of the Serpent” of Eden, the scales that fell from the eyes of Elijah’s servant, the original wicked flea, the two dwarf mummies of Bildad the Shu-hite and Ne-hi-miah, the 200 Philistine trophies (foreskins) brought in by David as his marriage dot (1 Sam. xviii, 25-27), the horn of salvation, and the instruments of Cornelius’s Italian Band, are about the only honest-to-goodness authentic Biblical relics which seem not to be preserved among the countless holy fake treasures of Holy Church.

[count-your-change]

“That kills truth-seeking at the root, by repelling people and draining out their motivation even to participate.”

A thought I’ve expressed here myself in one form or another a few times.

[BlueDragon]

I fail to see that “history” shows the popes to be more culpable than their adversaries.

Culpable of what? We are not talking merely of Latin church "popes" here, for the discussion was concerning that singular ecclesiastical community's "magesterium" concerning "papacy" itself.

If it be culpability of having long misrepresented how singular "papacy" came to be --- then the rest of your reply very much refutes the opening line of your here reply.

[bkaycee]

The bishop of Rome became the bishop of bishops because there was a felt need for it, and it has endured because that need remains.

There was no need for a Universal Vicar of Christ on Earth. It was a usurpation of power by Rome who used forgeries to impose it's will on the rest Christendom.

The East knew historically, there was no support for Roman supremacy. Rome pushed the issure and caused the Great Schism, among other tragedies.

[MDLION]

Why am I given the warning about “making it personal”? The only person I’ve ever discussed is Mary Ann Collins. In her first post to me, metmom refers to me personally with the word “Catholic”. In her second response to me she asks me “Would you accept it?”

[Jvette]

I just want to thank you for what you have done here. It’s something I could never have done. I attempted to read the information on the new advent site but you are right, it is an incredibly dry and difficult read.

Thank you for taking the time to break it down for those of us who are not familiar with the documents and explain it in easy to read posts is much appreciated.

It may be lost on those here with axes to grind, but speaking for myself, the time was well spent.

[Religion Moderator]

Since the former nun self-identifies as Mary Ann Collins, I gathered your comments beginning at post 15 were in reference to the original poster of this thread, a Freeper. That would be "making it personal."

Were you speaking about Mary Ann Collins?

[Mrs. Don-o]

I think your view, roamer_1, shows a deeply understandable yearning for a pristine past and a present free from the stains of historic, if not Original, sin. Who has not been made heartsick by history?

I think that's why you're aghast (I'm aghast too) that there were successful forgeries in the 9th century AD --- successful enough to be inserted into the papal archives by an unscrupulous librarian, and subsequently --- centuries later --- to inadvertently form part of Gratian's multiplex source material (Bible, Roman law, Frankish law, the Acti of synods, collections of caselaw, maxims and quotes) from which Medieval Canon Law developed.

The forged decretals of Pseudo-Isidore? We -- you and I --- are aghast. But scandalized? I tell you, no-- not scandalized. The actual subject material of the canons is not the Deposit of the Faith, not dogmatically-defined Divine and Natural Law, not even exclusively doctrinal or moral in nature, but comprises secular, positive, and administrative matters as well.

It would be some kind of misty-eyed middle-school Idealism --- not Christian, maybe Platonic? --- to expect a human law collection to be without fault; and such illusions always end in disillusionment, since all things human are cracked. All the Divine things in the Church are indefectible; and all the human things are cracked. Please --- as I tell my RCIA students - take that to heart.

I just wrote, and then deleted a whole lot more explanation. But oh heck, no need for me to go into Full Schoolmarm Mode.

Let me just say you have to look at this and see an interplay between human freedom (with its flaws and sins) and divine protection (by which God wills our existence and prevents our annihilation.) This applies to the Church in its human aspects: she is His, but she is not "without spot or wrinkle," until He comes to wash and sanctify her completely, and make her glorious.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Thank you very much for this cheering response. I am lucky that I have the time and the inclination, and that my patient husband lets me run with it. I don't think any attempt to get at the truth is ever wasted.

It reminds me of what Our Lord said about the Kingdom of Heaven being like, well.. a guy gets a clue that there's a treasure buried in a field, and he sells everything he has to buy that field

When I visualize this parable, I see a wasted urban lot littered with broken cinderblocks, lots of Pepsi cans and styrofoam fast food cartons, parts of various budget-model 1970-era cars -- you know, smashed windows, bumpers, tires --- straggling chicory and Queen-Annes-Lace and plantain sprouting here and there: and you've got to dig down through all that stuff to find the treasure which is worth your total earthly store and much, much more.

That's like the Church. That's like the Truth.

That's like digging through tons of STUFF to find it.

---

Now I've gotta go make some tuna salad!

[RobbyS]

The forgeries were used to prevent the domination of the Church by the Imperial authorities, as in the east. The collapse of the Roman Empire in the West was followed by a period of rule by rule by German kings. The Eastern Emperor Justinian managed in the 6th century to regain Italy, Africa , and Southeast Spain. Then in the 7th century and early 8th century, the Arabs came close to overrunning the Mediterranean and the Wes as a whole until they were blocked at Tours by the Franks and by the Greeks at Constantinople. Sicily was taken over and Italy proper threatened.

Rome was saved by Frankish forces led by Pepin, and it was he--it seems-- who donated the lands in central Europe which Rome would hold until the 19th Century as a source of wealth. Later Charlemagne established a powerful empire which included what is now France, German and the Low countries and northern Italy. It was at this point that the forgeries were done, to create papers that seemed to show that it was Constantine,five hundred years before who had donated these lands to the pope. The aim being to insure the independence of the Papacy.

[RobbyS]

As I look at the picture of the Church as presented in Acts and by Paul. I certainly do not see any pure vessel. As iimperfect as my local parish is, it is much to be preferred to the Church at Corinth as Paul describes it.

[metmom]

As I look at the picture of the Church as presented in Acts and by Paul. I certainly do not see any pure vessel. As iimperfect as my local parish is, it is much to be preferred to the Church at Corinth as Paul describes it.

But neither is the Catholic church any better. In the Corinthians church, although it was unheard of for a man to sleep with his father's wife, could you imagine the reaction if any of the book of Acts church leaders had been found molesting little boys?

The Catholic church has NOTHING up on the Corinthian church in terms of purity or morals. It is in no position to point any fingers.

[RobbyS]

Are you saying that this happens every day? Or are you willing to admit that what these priests did was an abuse of their authority and a violation of their vows and going against the teachings of the Church? As for what church leaders of the first century are concerned, if you real Paul you ought to see how frustrated he is because local leaders HAVE NOT acted with outrage at the behavior of certain local Christians.

[NKP_Vet]

I know you’ve seen this series, but just in case you haven’t, please order it and watch it in it’s entirety.
It shows the absolute beauty of the Catholic Church. Catholicism, the Series is already being shown in many RCIA classes around the country.

http://www.catholicismseries.com/