Posted on 09/04/2013 8:05:22 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
Some atheists say that if God exists, He should show Himself to everyone so they can believe in Him and not go to Hell. Should a good God do this?
I've heard atheists say that the best thing God could do would be to reveal Himself openly so that everyone could believe in Him, do what He wants, and not go to Hell. Since God does not do this, we know that either He does not exist or He is not good.
When this comes up with your atheist friends, try exploring the question of what would happen if God were to unequivocally prove His existence to an atheist. What would come of this? Would God's sudden appearance change the atheist's heart such that he would desire to devote himself to God?
Atheists aren't idiots. An open display of powerful glory by the God of the universe would likely drive former atheists to serve Him out of fear, but what would this accomplish from God's perspective? God doesn't desire eternal slaves—i.e., those who work to fulfill His requirements out of a desire to escape punishment or to gain something they want. As God reminds the Israelites throughout the Old Testament, it's not the acts of worship He's after, but the hearts of children who adore their Father and want to be with Him.
I submit to you this illustration from The Gulag Archipelago, a book about the communist, totalitarian Soviet Union in the first half of the 20th century. This is the kind of scenario God has no interest in creating:
At the conclusion of the conference, a tribute to Comrade Stalin was called for. Of course, everyone stood up (just as everyone had leaped to his feet during the conference at every mention of his name). The small hall echoed with "stormy applause, rising to an ovation." For three minutes, four minutes, five minutes.... But palms were getting sore and raised arms were already aching. And the older people were panting from exhaustion. It was becoming insufferably silly.... However, who would dare be the first to stop? The secretary of the District Party Committee could have done it.... But he was a newcomer. He had taken the place of a man who'd been arrested. He was afraid!....
The director of the local paper factory, an independent and strong-minded man, stood with the presidium. Aware of all the falsity and all the impossibility of the situation, he still kept on applauding! Nine minutes! Ten! In anguish he watched the secretary of the District Party Committee, but the latter dared not stop. Insanity! To the last man! With make-believe enthusiasm on their faces, looking at each other with faint hope, the district leaders were just going to go on and on applauding till they fell where they stood....
Stalin had made himself known to his people in all his power, and this was the result—forced worship given to avoid punishment. Yes, the standing ovation occurred, but it was not done out of love—it was not truthful. And for the atheist who sees God as a Stalinesque dictator, the result would be the same. This kind of "worship" does not please God; in fact, the hypocrisy of it angers Him.
A person who faults God for not openly showing His power in order to ensure that atheists will have the chance to do what they need to do to avoid Hell has missed the very purpose of God's revelation of Himself. We exist to "glorify God and enjoy Him forever," not to grudgingly follow His orders. How would cowing the atheist into submission by His presence further this goal for the atheist? The atheist has misdiagnosed his situation: uncertainty about God's existence is not his main problem, so certainty would not solve his problem. God is available with evidence enough to give confidence and trust to those whose hearts have been changed to desire Him. But if one hates the idea of the biblical God even in theory, one would be unlikely to love Him if He suddenly appeared in person.
The major difference between atheists and Christians is not that Christians believe God exists, but that they love Him for who He is and delight in pleasing Him, worshiping Him, and being with Him. This is why it's a good idea to ask the atheist who blames God's lack of appearance for his unbelief, "If I were to prove without a doubt that God exists, would you then love Him?” This question gets to the heart of the real issue for the atheist.
RE: Throughout the Old Testament God is slaughtering and Smoteing non-believers.
Did he smite non-believers for not believing in Him, or for their wicked deeds?
I guess that depends on your NT perspective, literal vs inspired tales. Taken literally, the holy city filled with the risen dead was quite the event,and surely would have impacted more than just the Jews there, and would have been quite the surprise to the Romans of the time, who would have had to confront the risen dead. After rising, did they return to their graves? Were they lifted up? Did they Romans chop them to bits?
If not literal, I suppose it could have been private apparitions or mass hysteria, but what does that say about the other events that occurred?
Way above my pay grade. The Heavenly Father can appear to whomever He wants, anytime He wants.
In order to see God, one must grow spiritually. You can’t put new wine in an old wineskin. You can’t patch an old garment with new cloth. In short... there is no room for God in a person who is already full of themselves!
Atheists are so full of themselves that they have no room for God!
Exactly - Christ said God is Life. I take that to mean the Animating Principle of the Universe - or that which tells Matter to get up and walk. That Principle is invisible - we know it by seeing it in action, but we quickly forget the totality, the unity of Him/It as we are enmeshed in Life, held to chains of cause and effect - instead we divide Him/It as food, friend, enemy, parent, child and so on. (May explain the Blessed Sacraments being ritualized eating, and why the Fall was depicted as an act of disobedient eating.)
Faith is impossible to use as an argument with an atheist, the stumblingstone is religion itself to many of them, that is, the various sects and the poor in spirit will never get it on the personal level until a trial is placed upon them they would rather not deal with alone. I’m old enough to have seen family atheists wither on into old age, too forlorn to accept any sort of guidance, bent on having it their own way to the end. Eventually they have cast aside the succor anyone else might offer and a sort of cowl of bitterness comes over them. Why share with Life anymore? Life is not compelling to them and they have nothing to give or receive. If they had listened to the still small voice crying “I am He!” then they would certainly have fared better - in my humble opinion. To an atheist I would say, if you sincerely want to know for sure if He exists or not why not act like He does and then live it and see if you are changed for the better. If it does not, what have you lost? You may even have gained a few new friends along the way.
Superb article. It has helped me to affirm my faith in God.
That account by Solzhenitsyn about the Soviet district committee applauding frantically to the point of exhaustion had a lesson about real fear. One committee member finally ceased clapping and sat down, and was instantly joined by all the others with tremendous relief.
That person was arrested by the NKVD and as he was being beaten in a Lubyanka torture cell, the officer hitting him shouted, “Don’t ever be the first to stop applauding Comrade Stalin!!!”
Your post was excellent, Dutchboy88. The only reason I could possibly come up with for God doing what He is doing has to do with the original problem: 1/3 of His angels leaving Him to serve Satan when Satan rebelled. And that is only a very tiny opinion of human perception. One day we will know, though, I believe. God Bless,
sm
For some reason the html characters I used did not format my post correctly (or I slipped up). The “eeerrr no” remark was a quote from qam1, not my words. I do not hold this view. But, his claim that his belief in them would be based upon “truth” rather than “fear” is a good point.
I was simply saying, this is why God does not reveal Himself...according to the Scriptures. “It has been given you to understand. It has not been give to them.”
Do you feel your questions still apply? If so, I will answer them.
Good point. And, even this was part of His managed plan. The poor schmucks of Satan were simply used to display His utter control over everything...even them. This is not a "ying/yang" gimmick, nor a "war with evil" vignette. He is controlling it all; everything is subject to Him and He really is God over all. And He is Holy, Holy, Holy.
"Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?"...1 Cor. 6:3.
Sorry about that!
Nor is in the New Testament, and it was a singular event.
The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame. ’
But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’
And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house—for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”
People don't believe because they don't want to believe, not because they can't or there's not enough evidence to convince them. There certainly is enough evidence and it's in the world we wake up to every day.
It's a matter of will and choice.
Any honest athiest can merely look up at the night sky and behold the majesty of His creation. The universe itself declares the glory of God. It’s not God’s fault they would prefer to listen to the whispers of satan rather than trust their own eyes.
God has revealed himself. Apparently these atheists have never heard of Jesus Christ.
I find that Atheists are a PITA. I find militant Atheists to be a bunch of effete, arrogant Alpha Sierra Sierra Hotel Oscar Lima Echoes.
Atheists see God, just like everyone else.
They just reject God, because they are angry.
Atheists don’t need to face God - they need to face their anger.
God’s inside what they’re angry about.
I believe this is a very common misperception of scripture. The situation you describe virtually eliminates the concept of free will. Without free will it's hard to make sense of anything in the Bible, or anything else for that matter. The best way I can describe my take on it, is that God is outside of time and space. He sees all of creation, from the beginning to end at once, much like you would hold a book or DVD in your hand. You have the entirety of the story right there at once, beginning, middle and end. However, in order to play it out in a manner that we can recognise, you have to introduce the concept of duration, and linear time. With the example given, you either read the book, or pop the DVD into a player to let the story play out.
Of course, the analogy breaks down somewhat, as all analogies do, because the characters in book and film are scripted. In our case, we have the free will granted to us by His providence. Because we were not designed in such a way as to percieve the universe without the constructs of time and space, we have a hard time wrapping our minds around a way for him to know everything we have done, do, and will do, yet not force us to make the choices we make in regards to Him or anything else.
Personally, I think the ultimate end-game is much larger than anything we are even capable of imagining, but it is not necessary (or perhaps desired) for us to understand what is really going on for us to play whatever part it is that we play.
One major objection to the existance of God, is the presence on this green earth of pain and suffering. Many theologians much smarter than myself have tackled that problem, and seeming contradiction of the belief in a God who genuinely loves his creation. However, as I see it, in brief, if we are immortal beings, as the Bible claims, what, really, is the consequence of anything we could experience here in the brief time we have 'in theater' compared to the vast reach and breadth of eternity itself, or whatever an existance outside of time and space is like?
Just my two cents, you are free, of course, to agree. Or not.
Cheers!
Free will is evil until adoptions. Only then can "it" choose the things of God.
I'm sorry, I don't take your meaning here. Could you elaborate?
really.. people want to tell God what he should do?
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