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To: Boogieman
I don't understand. (Don't worry, it's my normal state.)

Do you think we should refrain from lighting fires, walking very far, or carrying things on Saturdays?

I think what IHS says about anger or adultery in the heart suggests that we have “ideas” that we are commanded not to have.

To be vague or general, since Jesus has fulfilled the Law and since one can be Xtian w/o being Jewish, I think that there is a problem with the Torah, a problem to work through, “reverently, deliberately, and in the fear of God.”


In the original post, the vicar mocking us Catholics is right about one thing: a lot of our images are in execrable taste. They are the last thing on earth I'd want to worship. but, for example, my cheesy statue of our Lady of Guadalupe is helpful to me. I think of the many, many wonders God has done through Mary, starting with the carrying, birthing, and raising of the Word and going through the dramatic opening of central America to the Gospel.

I gave a friend an icon of “Our Lady of Sorrows” in hopes that it would prompt her to consider more deeply the place of pain in the life of a Christian. She has been an atheist for most of her life, and her “go-to” argument has been suffering. Then she had a vision of Mary which, as you might expect, has thrown her world-view into a cocked hat.

So I can see a useful role for “audio-visuals” in the pilgrimage toward God.

33 posted on 09/08/2013 9:17:13 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (In te, Domine, speravi: non confundar in aeternum.)
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To: Mad Dawg

“Do you think we should refrain from lighting fires, walking very far, or carrying things on Saturdays?”

I think we still aught to observe the commandment “remember the sabbath and keep it holy”, but that does not mean we must observe all of the OT ordinances associated with the Sabbath. The commandment in the 10 commandments is a moral one, since it is commanding us to keep the Lord’s day holy, as an act of obedience and remembrance of God’s creation. This observance of the sabbath as a holy day actually preexisted the 10 commandments, since the sabbath was established and sanctified from the time of creation by God himself. The more specific OT ordinances concerning the sabbath, like the ones you cite, were only for the Israelites, and I don’t think they were ever expected of anyone else.

“I think what IHS says about anger or adultery in the heart suggests that we have “ideas” that we are commanded not to have.”

Yes, we are commanded to resist fairly specific ideas or lusts, or at least not to indulge ourselves in them. However, if God had enumerated and specifically prohibited every idea that man might idolize, the list would be endless. So, as a matter of practicality, it seems more sensible to have a general prohibition on the act of idolatry, and only specific prohibitions on the common mechanisms that enable it.

“To be vague or general, since Jesus has fulfilled the Law and since one can be Xtian w/o being Jewish, I think that there is a problem with the Torah, a problem to work through, “reverently, deliberately, and in the fear of God.””

Yes, I agree it is a thorny matter, since we don’t want to be “Judaizers”, yet remember, Christ also said “if you love me, keep the commandments”. Plenty of the writings of the apostles reinforce that notion. So we cannot simply assume the commandments are nullified. We have what is known as “Christian liberty”, meaning that we have more freedom of conscience to decide what is the right course of action, rather than relying on an exhaustive list of ordinance like the Jews had.

Yet, some laws are not left to our conscience, and I believe the 10 commmandments, at least, qualify. There is, for example, no way to use “Christian liberty” to justify an act of murder, theft, or adultery. Likewise, I feel idolatry must fall in the same category.

“So I can see a useful role for “audio-visuals” in the pilgrimage toward God.”

Perhaps, but remember, God even uses things detestable to Him, such as the basest sinners and tyrants, to accomplish His work. So simply because one can cite how something might be used for good, does not make that thing acceptable to God. We must defer to His judgement in those matters where He has given us specific commands, and not think that our judgement is better, no matter how sensible it may seem to us.


34 posted on 09/08/2013 3:10:34 PM PDT by Boogieman
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