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Apocryphal Writings are All Written in the Second Century or Later (#2 in a series)
canon fodder ^ | February 5, 2013 | Michael J. Kruger

Posted on 09/11/2013 6:17:56 PM PDT by Gamecock

Full Title: Ten Basic Facts about the NT Canon that Every Christian Should Memorize: #2: “Apocryphal Writings are All Written in the Second Century or Later”

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In the prior post, we discussed the first basic fact about the New Testament canon, namely that the New Testament writings are the earliest Christian texts we possess. We were careful to make clear that the early date of these books does not make them canonical, but the early date does show that these books were written during a time period when eyewitnesses of Jesus were still alive.

In this current post, we address the issue of “apocryphal” New Testament writings. These are writings that were not included in the New Testament, but have a similar genre (gospels, acts, letters, apocalypses, etc.). And these writings are often attributed to famous individuals; e.g., the Gospel of Peter, the Gospel of Thomas, the Acts of John.

While we cannot go into extensive detail about these various apocryphal writings, we can at least note one basic fact that is often overlooked: all of these apocryphal writings are dated to the second century or later. Thus, this post is the corollary of the prior one. Not only are all New Testament writings from the first century, but all apocryphal writings (at least the ones that are extant) are from the second century or later. And many are from the third or fourth century.

What is particularly noteworthy about this fact is that even critical scholars agree. While there is dispute over the dating of some New Testament books (e.g., 2 Peter, the Pastoral Epistles), there is virtual unanimity over the late date of apocryphal books. There are, of course, fringe attempts to place some apocryphal writings into the first century—e.g., Crossan argues that a “cross gospel” embedded in the Gospel of Peter is from the first century—but these suggestions have not been widely received.

The observation of this simple fact quickly calls into question sensationalistic claims about how these “lost” books contain the “real” version of Christianity.

Of course, one might argue that later texts can still preserve authentic first-century Christian tradition. After all, a text doesn’t have to be written in the first century to contain material from the first century. True. But, we would still need to have a compelling reason to accept these later texts over our earlier ones. And when it comes to these apocryphal writings, compelling reasons are in short supply.

For one, we know that many of these apocryphal writings are outright forgeries, pretending to be written by someone who was clearly not the author. That fact alone raises serious questions about the reliability of their content. Second, many of these apocryphal writings contain obvious embellishments and legendary additions. For example, in the Gospel of Peter, Jesus emerges from the tomb as a giant whose head reaches the clouds, and he is followed by the cross itself which then speaks (!). And third, many of these apocryphal writings contain a Gnostic-style theology that did not even emerge until the second century, and therefore could not represent authentic first-century Christianity (e.g., Gospel of Philip).

To be clear, this does not suggest that it is impossible, in principle, for an apocryphal writing to be first century (it’s just that we have not found one yet). Nor does this suggest that apocryphal writings could not (or did not) ever contain reliable Jesus tradition. We know that early Christians sometimes appealed to apocryphal gospels as containing some true material (more on this in a later post). But, and this is the key point, the scraps of apocryphal literature that may be reliable do not present a version of Christianity that is out of sync with what we find in the New Testament books, and are certainly not in a position to supersede what we find in the New Testament books.

In the end, apocryphal writings constitute an interesting and fascinating source for the study of early Christianity. But, largely due to their late date, they do not offer a more compelling version of Christianity than the New Testament writings themselves.


TOPICS: General Discusssion; History
KEYWORDS: canon; grpl
#1: “The New Testament Books are the Earliest Christian Writings We Possess”
1 posted on 09/11/2013 6:17:56 PM PDT by Gamecock
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To: drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; AZhardliner; ...

2 posted on 09/11/2013 6:18:49 PM PDT by Gamecock (Many Atheists take the stand: "There is no God AND I hate Him.")
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To: Gamecock

People love the idea of hidden knowledge too much to ever let go of the idea of “Lost Gospels”. Even though all they are is blatant forgeries.


3 posted on 09/11/2013 6:24:16 PM PDT by Shadow44
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To: Gamecock

I thought the book of Enoch matches with the Dead Sea Scrolls and that the scrolls are generally dated to sometime before Christ?


4 posted on 09/11/2013 6:34:27 PM PDT by fso301
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To: fso301

I think Enoch doesn’t fit in this category.


5 posted on 09/11/2013 6:40:50 PM PDT by Gamecock (Many Atheists take the stand: "There is no God AND I hate Him.")
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To: Gamecock

This is why Catholics recoil at the dueterocanonicals being called “apocrypha”: the apocrypha are much later in date and were never held to be scriptural. The deuterocanonicals (1 & 2 Maccabees, Sirach, various chapters of Daniel & Esther, etc.) were written before even certain portions of the Protestant Old Testament canon, contrary to Jerome’s notions which he got from the Jews were all-but-one written in Hebrew, and, contrary to Luther’s assertions, alluded to in the New Testament.

Most protestants who belief that ancient Church Fathers rejected the “apocrypha” are confused by the fact that these books are the ones which should be known as the apocrypha; many of the same fathers who reject the “apocrypha” attest to the dueterocanonicals as scripture.


6 posted on 09/11/2013 6:52:26 PM PDT by dangus
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To: fso301

There’s Enoch of the Dead Sea Scrolls and there’s the Slavonic Enoch which is widely believed to be a medieval forgery. I Enoch, the Ethiopic Enoch, is authentic. II Enoch, the Slavonic, apparently is not.


7 posted on 09/11/2013 7:03:31 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: Gamecock

Actually some of the apocryphal books and the pseudepigraphical books
appear to be religious tomes used to hide scientific knowledge coded into the stories.
These stories were oral histories handed down. Early Arabian,[Thousand and One Nights” etc.] Asian and later moslem oral stories repeated these themes. Some of the themes and stories are outlandish and do not make any sense at all unless the original greek language is analyzed and placed into a scientifically described process in chemistry, biology, or physics. Then what appears to modern-day scientific devices and processes appear to be described in the original greek.
The questions arise:
1. “How did 2nd and 3rd century know people about this scientific knowledge?
2.Did the devices described in the greek really exist?
3. How did the descriptions of the processes come to be if they did not have any modern day scientific instruments to do these observations and experiments?

When the translators translate from the old greek and Latin into modern languages, they primarily realize they are working on a supposed religious or fake religious document -Thus they usually attempt to translate these documents in a religious sense. That is why some of the stories do not make any sense in English.
However if the stories are translated into spanish, different words come out that are not in the English because Spanish is closer to the old greek and Arabic than modern english is and those old greek and arabic stems have different colored meanings in Spanish. The result is different from the English translation.- A lot of times if a word that was translated into Latin from the greek by a contemporary Roman translator or other, if the word in greek didn`t make any sense in context, but made sense in the latin version but didn`t have a religious connotation upon the translation into english, it was left out altogether in the later English translation.
Many times a word in the Aramaic and greek would sound similar or the same but have entirely different meanings. Thus author of a religious book who wrote down spoken words would have the text as a play-on-words, but the words would have have to been spoken to an audience that knew greek and Aramaic, and Hebrew also.

Similar to saying in English using Spanish words,
“cold today, hot tamale” because tamale is a play on the sound of the word “tomorrow”. This happens everywhere in the New Testament, OT and other non-canonical books above.’
Lots of times place-names would be introduced into the dialogue so as to compare the writer`s or speaker`s speech to an object they already knew about, e.g, as we would say something as the “Big Apple” which is not a fruit at all.
This also happens in the OT where place-names are used to describe an event there. Or a person`s name is used with a verb in conjunction with an event.
e.g., “Trump got Trumped”


8 posted on 09/11/2013 8:06:27 PM PDT by bunkerhill7 (("The Second Amendment has no limits on firepower"-NY State Senator Kathleen A. Marchione.))
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To: bunkerhill7

I always though The Gospel of Thomas did have some roots in early church maybe using things joted down by one of the deciples as Jesus was speaking.


9 posted on 09/11/2013 10:52:20 PM PDT by Forward the Light Brigade (Into the Jaws of H*ll)
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To: dangus

And many Early Church Fathers said the deuterocanonicals were not read for doctrine, but ok to read in church. Not God Breathed as Jerome indicates in his preface to the deuterocanonicals.


10 posted on 09/12/2013 10:39:14 AM PDT by bkaycee (John 3:16)
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To: bkaycee

>> And many Early Church Fathers said the deuterocanonicals were not read for doctrine, <<

A very subtle, but key misquote: it’s not that aren’t read *for* doctrine, but that they aren’t read to *prove* doctrine. In most cases when something similar to that is said, the context is an attempt to convert Jews. Since the Jews didn’t hold them as canonical (as of some time AFTER Jesus’ resurrection), the Fathers reckoned it’s no point using them as proof of Christian doctrine. The fact that they are approved to be read in church, however, means that they are to be read for doctrine, since church readings and the subsequent homilies were the typical means of Christian indoctrination; most of what we know of most of the Church fathers comes from homilies.

(I know “homily” is a term used by Catholics for the instruction which comes after the readings, similar to, but more specific than a sermon.)


11 posted on 09/12/2013 3:00:54 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus; metmom; CynicalBear

this is interesting..


12 posted on 09/12/2013 3:07:58 PM PDT by smvoice (The 2 greatest days of your life: the day you're born. And the day you discover why.)
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To: smvoice

Yes it is interesting and people need to know. Also the number of discrepancies with real scripture should alert anyone that the apocrypha should NOT be considered authoritative in any way.


13 posted on 09/12/2013 3:30:42 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: dangus; Gamecock; metmom; smvoice
>> many of the same fathers who reject the “apocrypha” attest to the dueterocanonicals as scripture.<<

Yeah, sure they are. And scripture contradicts itself right?

“Whoso honoureth his father maketh an atonement for his sins...Water will quench a flaming fire; and alms maketh an atonement for sin” (Sirach 3:3, 30).

Leviticus 17:11 “For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.”

Sirach teaches justification by the works of the law (honouring parents, etc.)

“A man is not justified by the works of the law” (Galatians 2:16).

I could go on and on. Those who believe the apocrypha or even the dueterocanonicals are scripture are in horrible error.

14 posted on 09/12/2013 3:41:04 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: dangus; Gamecock
...many of the same fathers who reject the “apocrypha” attest to the dueterocanonicals as scripture.

The fact that the early church fathers did not include the deuterocanonicals as part of the "inerrant and infallible" group of scriptures speaks volumes. While there were disagreements with what deuterocanonical books to accept or reject, the early church never accepted them. Neither did the Hebrew fathers. It wasn't included in the original package.

The Council of Trent changed all that by including them. Almost 1,000 years later. One has to wonder what new evidence surface that confirmed they were authentic when 1,000 before hand they said they weren't.

15 posted on 09/12/2013 4:27:28 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: dangus
The Roman Catholic Cardinal Cajetan, a contemporary of Martin Luther on the Deuterocanonicals:

"Here we close our commentaries on the historical books of the Old Testament. For the rest (that is, Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees) are counted by St. Jerome out of the canonical books, and are placed amongst the apocrypha, along with Wisdom and Ecciesiasticus, as is plain from the Protogus Galeatus. Nor be thou disturbed, like a raw scholar, if thou shouldest find anywhere, either in the sacred councils or the sacred doctors, these books reckoned as canonical. For the words as well of councils as of doctors are to be reduced to the correction of Jerome. Now, according to his judgment, in the epistle to the bishops Chromatius and Heliodorus, these books (and any other like books in the canon of the Bible) are not canonical, that is, not in the nature of a rule for confirming matters of faith. Yet, they may be called canonical, that is, in the nature of a rule for the edification of the faithful, as being received and authorised in the canon of the Bible for that purpose. By the help of this distinction thou mayest see thy way clearly through that which Augustine says, and what is written in the provincial council of Carthage." (Cardinal Cajetan, "Commentary on all the Authentic Historical Books of the Old Testament," cited by William Whitaker in "A Disputation on Holy Scripture," Cambridge: Parker Society (1849), p. 424)

16 posted on 09/12/2013 4:56:54 PM PDT by bkaycee (John 3:16)
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To: HarleyD; metmom
One has to wonder what new evidence surface that confirmed they were authentic when 1,000 before hand they said they weren't.

Same thing that changed between the Canons of The Council of Orange and Trent.

Widespread corruption and various abuses that triggered The Reformation. When Luther and company called foul Rome, out of pride and greed, pushed back with new errors. And as a result now we have Trent and the Deuterocanonical books.

17 posted on 09/12/2013 5:25:06 PM PDT by Gamecock (Many Atheists take the stand: "There is no God AND I hate Him.")
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To: Gamecock; HarleyD

From the church that never changes, eh?

Same as it was in the first century?

I think not.


18 posted on 09/12/2013 5:45:49 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: CynicalBear

Oh, brother. There are quite many *apparent* contradictions in the Protestant canon, too. For instance: who are Jesus’ paternal grandparents? James, Revelations, and even the gospels also oppose your reading of Galatians, let alone the fact that Sirach is Old Testament, like all those laws of Moses which oppose Galatians.


19 posted on 09/12/2013 6:15:57 PM PDT by dangus
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To: HarleyD

Your history is bunk. Until Luther, scarcely anyone dreamt of compiling the Old Testament without including the deuterocanonicals. The standard OT compilation was the Septuagint, which included the deuterocanonicals.


20 posted on 09/12/2013 6:19:04 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus
>> There are quite many *apparent* contradictions in the Protestant canon, too.<<

Not even one contradiction in scripture.

>> who are Jesus’ paternal grandparents?<<

Not there is not. One simply doesn’t mention those in between. Same as those who said Jesus is the “son of David” when Jesus asked them.

>> Revelations, and even the gospels also oppose your reading of Galatians<<

Give me one example.

>> let alone the fact that Sirach is Old Testament<<

I gave you the Old Testament contradiction to Sirach.

>> like all those laws of Moses which oppose Galatians.<<

Not even one.

If you believe those statements then you must also admit that you don’t believe the infallibility of scripture which leaves you with nothing.

21 posted on 09/12/2013 6:29:21 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: bkaycee

You found a Catholic cardinal who ascribed to Luther’s false history... and was branded a heretic, forced to recant, and had his book excised. So Cajetan fell for Luther’s take on Jerome. Big deal; he was unaware of St. Jerome’s own contradictions of those claims, wherein he claimed that anyone who believed that those who thought he intended to deny the scriptural authenticity and canonicity of the deuterocanonicals were “fools, and slanderers.”

St. Jerome, himself, was fooled by the Jews into believing that the Septuagint was chalk full of mistakes. 1,500 years later we discovered the Dead Sea Scrolls, and no know that the Septuagint was full of translational errors, but was translating a different text than the Masoretic ones. So even if St. Jerome did believe that the deuterocanonicals were apocryphal, what of it? What if we don’t believe St. Jerome’s apologia for his prefixes to the dueterocanonicals? What if the Protestant theory that St. Jerome only attested to the authenticity of the deuterocanonicals because he recanted under duress? What does that prove? That at the time of St. Jerome, the Church was so firm in its canon that it deemed a biblical researcher for denying the deuterocanonicals?


22 posted on 09/12/2013 6:29:46 PM PDT by dangus
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To: CynicalBear

No, I’m not denying scripture. Heaven forbid. You just suffer from the very silly notion that your interpretation is the only one.

Your error is that you conflated “atonement” with “justification.” Based on the fact that you believe in only one kind of atonement, you presumed everyone shares that belief. Thus, just like the atheists and skeptics who disparage all of scripture, because they don’t understand it, you disparage the portions of God’s Word that you reject, because you don’t understand it.

Christ atoned for that sin which no man can atone for. Who can earn salvation? Only the Son of God in his infinite self could pay the price for eternal damnation. Nonetheless there are temporal reprecussions of sin: although Christ forgives all sins, he who murders his father will be deprived of the company of his father for all the years he remains on this earth. Thus, there is eternal atonement, which can be achieved only through Christ, but there is also temporal atonement, which alleviates suffering.


23 posted on 09/12/2013 6:40:54 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

Actually the term “Apocrypha” (as distinguished from the “apocryphal writings” in the article) was not coined by Protestants, rather it was used by Jerome. Early catholic scholars were NEVER uniform in approving of the Apocrypha—that is the pre-Christian Jewish writings—which were (and are) rejected by the Jews as canonical.

Luther happened to follow in that Jewish/patristic/scholastic scholarly stream within catholicism which rejected the Apocrypha as God’s Word. In direct reaction to Luther—Rome thought it had to at Trent—finally formally recognize the “deuterocanonical books” in the 1560s. The idea that the Catholic Church has ALWAYS accepted the Apocrypha is just the typical historical revisionism (lie) which Protestants have gotten used to hearing from Rome for the last 500 years.


24 posted on 09/12/2013 9:16:51 PM PDT by AnalogReigns (because the real world is not digital...)
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To: dangus; bkaycee
You found a Catholic cardinal who ascribed to Luther’s false history... and was branded a heretic, forced to recant, and had his book excised. So Cajetan fell for Luther’s take on Jerome....St. Jerome, himself, was fooled by the Jews into believing that the Septuagint was chalk full of mistakes.

OK, well that's interesting...

Did I get the time line correct? We are talking about the infallible decisions of the Church aren't we?
25 posted on 09/13/2013 1:23:55 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: dangus; CynicalBear
Your error is that you conflated “atonement” with “justification.” Based on the fact that you believe in only one kind of atonement, ...because they don’t understand it, you disparage the portions of God’s Word that you reject, because you don’t understand it.

I would point out that the Church no longer follow the doctrine of atonement as laid out by the early church fathers. This is from the Catholic encyclopedia on the atonement:

There you have it. Hidden within all the gooblygook. The atonement is simply a work of love that we are to mirror. Not only does this view throw out all the "mystical" teachings of the early fathers, and the teachings of medieval fathers like Anselm, and denies the Nicene Creed, but it has no base in scripture.

The truth of the matter is that Catholics no longer believe in the atonement of Christ (His death being a substitution for our sins to abate the wrath of God). Even though this is what was taught by the early fathers, according to the Catholic Church they had a distorted view. I suppose it's like the Pope stated, just follow your conscience. Everyone can get to heaven if we just sacrifice ourselves like Christ. Many Catholics are trying to back peddle from the Pope's remarks yesterday but this is the true belief of the Catholic Church. Live a good life and everything will be fine.

If you can't understand the wrath of God you will never be able to understand the love of God. They are one in the same.

26 posted on 09/13/2013 2:02:06 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

I just love dealing with people who just read snippets and polemicists’ proof-texts for their history!

Cardinal Catejan who fell for St. Jerome is not Saint Catejan.

Cardinal Catejan is Thomas Cardinal Catejan.

Saint Catejan is Gaetano dei Conti di Tiene.

That’s quite an impossible confusion for someone who has learned a single thing about either man, except for some out-of-context quotes. And you demonstrate a profound ignorance at what the Council of Trent was, which I find absolutely incredible.

An ecumenical council does not invent doctrine; it discerns when a doctrine is unquestionable.

The greatest schism in Christianity (Orthodox v Catholic) was created because the Catholic church began including a clarifying word (”filioque”) into the Apostles’ Creed. The Orthodox bishops unanimously assented to the notion that the Catholic meaning of having done so was orthodox, but simply because it lacked apostolic authority to insert the word, the Orthodox bishops anathematized to the Catholic bishops. But somehow the Catholics add seven books to the bible, and not only does not one single bishop in all of Catholic Christendom raise an eyebrow, but the Orthodox churches follow suit???

Record of the Council of Trent were kept. Not one bishop objected that the Council was not keeping tradition, as it was sworn to exclusively do. Not even Cardinal Cajetan. Oh, sure, we know that in later synods he eventually sided with Lutherans on several issues (not only the canon, but also condemning mandatory priestly celibacy and reception on the body of Christ through bread alone), so there is no cover-up here.

And it’s not like they all recognized a need to conspire to maintain their previous doctrinal assertions. Quite the opposite: not only did the Council of Trent require assent to doctrines found in the dueterocanonicals, it also reaffirmed where those doctrines Luther had rejected were found in the bible outside the dueterocanonicals.

Or shall we look to the Thomist churches? For 1,500 years, they grew in complete isolation from the Catholic and Orthodox churches. On their discovery, many of them affirmed their unity with the Catholic church. Some remained independent... but added seven books to their bibles anyway?

And let’s go back to those Church Fathers who you insist believed the deuterocanonicals were to be read for “edification,” but not “doctrine”: Suppose Luther and Calvin were correct about what doctrines the Church Fathers held. Suppose praying for the dead is sinful, that there is no temporal atonement, that there is no state of purgation between this life and Heaven: why would any reasonable person, then, recommend for “edification” and inclusion into church services books that specifically endorse praying and atoning for the dead so that they be spared purgation? How is edifying to include false doctrine?

The exact opposite was the case with the Church Fathers: there were many “legends” of extreme bravery and faithfulness in Early Christian culture. Every apostle had at least gospel written of them. Some were fantastic (there’s one passage that includes a lion given the miraculous ability to speak), and some had obvious heresies included by gnostics, but many were quite believable, and many had no heresies at all. And some had been read in church services since the days when the apostles still walked the Earth. But because their apostolic authority was uncertain, they were all held suspect, and they were all forbidden to be read in church services.


27 posted on 09/13/2013 6:10:54 AM PDT by dangus
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To: HarleyD

One last note on the dueterocanonicals:

Only those books which were found to be universally accepted throughout the entire history of the Church were mandated by the Council of Trent. You’ll note that among the “apocrypha” in the Protestant bibles which include the deuterocanonicals are certain materials which are not part of the deuterocanonicals. Since the Council could not find that they were used universally throughout Church history, the Council found that it could not bind people to believe in them BECAUSE COUNCILS MUST SPEAK FOR THE ENTIRE CHURCH, THROUGHOUT HISTORY.

“B-b-but didn’t St. Thomas Aquinas create the doctrine of transubstantiation?” many people object, “Didn’t some Church fathers contradict him on it?”

No, he did not. He formulated a means of expressing what some previous Church fathers inadequately expressed. One of the Church Fathers (I forgot which) called it “transformation.” Aquinas explicitly stated that the Eucharist didn’t change its form. But that’s not a deliberate contradiction; surely the Church Father had not meant that it changed its appearance, but rather than invent a new word for the concept (as Aquinas had done), he used a word that didn’t fit exactly.

Likewise, the “immaculate conception” was Pope Pius IX’s formulation for the sinlessness of Mary. The Eastern churches may not use that formulation, since it is influenced by St. Augustine’s formulation of original sin which is alien to them, but they absolutely believe in the unique sinlessness of Mary. And yes, they also believe she was assumed into Heaven.


28 posted on 09/13/2013 6:56:33 AM PDT by dangus
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To: HarleyD
Once again, you insist on quoting New Advent as if it were the canons of the ecumenical councils. It's the work of an American layman in 1913 Protestant-dominated America, made famous only because it could be put on the internet for free because no-one ever bothered to renew its copyright, just like the cheesy movies that they used for Mystery Science Theater 3000.

But what's hilarious is you stick to your reading of it, even though in the very article you're citing, the author attempts to make clear precisely that he's not saying precisely what you otherwise could reasonable misread his sloppy explanation for saying:

The Catholic doctrine on this subject is set forth in the sixth Session of the Council of Trent, chapter ii. Having shown the insufficiency of Nature, and of Mosaic Law the Council continues:
Whence it came to pass, that the Heavenly Father, the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort (2 Corinthians 1, 3), when that blessed fullness of the time was come (Galatians 4:4) sent unto men Jesus Christ, His own Son who had been, both before the Law and during the time of the Law, to many of the holy fathers announced and promised, that He might both redeem the Jews, who were under the Law and that the Gentiles who followed not after justice might attain to justice and that all men might receive the adoption of sons. Him God had proposed as a propitiator, through faith in His blood (Romans 3:25), for our sins, and not for our sins only, but also for those of the whole world (I John ii, 2).

29 posted on 09/13/2013 7:09:59 AM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

And just in case anyone misses the point, because of the use of Catholic terminology:

Gamecock objects to the Catholic Encyclopedia writing, “But we can never rest in these material figures as though they were literal and adequate.” He seems to think that this means that the MST3K Catholic Encyclopedia is herein denying the realness of Christ’s sacrifice.

The problem is that that the encyclopedia is addressing is that “satistfaction” and “propitiation” is a concept borrowed from Greek mythology to express the need for a sacrifice. In Greek mythology, the gods hated a man until his offences were propitiated. In Christianity, loved the world so much, that he sent his only Son to redeem men; he loved men BEFORE they were propitiated, not BECAUSE they were propitiated.

Gamecock curiously excluded this passage from the encyclopedia which would have clarified this : “But it must not be thought that God is only moved to mercy and reconciled to us as a result of this satisfaction. This false conception of the Reconciliation is expressly rejected by St. Augustine (In Joannem, Tract. cx, section 6). God’s merciful love is the cause, not the result of that satisfaction.”

I can’t read Gamecock’s mind to know why he would not have read and included that passage, being the huge fan of St. Augustine that he claims to be.


30 posted on 09/13/2013 7:53:37 AM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus
And you demonstrate a profound ignorance at what the Council of Trent was, which I find absolutely incredible.

I don't understand why you find that incredible. Catholics have been telling me that for a long time.

The rest of the post is blah, blah, blah. Fact is the bible as defined by the Catholic Church was changed 1,000 years later. Whatever the reason this is a glaring issue that can't be ignored. Protestants have the true early church bible. Catholics have a bunch of addendums added to theirs.

31 posted on 09/13/2013 8:28:56 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

People who are honest, sane, and not profoundly mentally deficient learn something when people tell them it over, over, and over again.


32 posted on 09/13/2013 11:31:53 AM PDT by dangus
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To: HarleyD

Amen and Amen!


33 posted on 09/13/2013 11:41:47 AM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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To: dangus
People ...learn something when people tell them it over, over, and over again.

You mean the people who pray to dead people for help from God, believe that one just has to follow their conscience to go to heaven, and keep track of how many times they pray to God's mother on a set of beads. Not to mention completely ignoring the first 600 years of Church writings, councils and creeds relegating the early fathers to the status of "mystical", "bigots", and "ignorant". And these are the people I'm to learn from?

34 posted on 09/13/2013 5:34:49 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

This from the man whose arguments were sytematically destroyed and responds with “blah blah blah.” You’re worse than stupid, Harley, you’re willfully ignorant.


35 posted on 09/13/2013 5:50:03 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

In the early sixteenth century, just prior to the Reformation, Cardinal Ximenes, the Archbishop of Toledo, in collaboration with the leading theologians of his day, produced an edition of the Bible called the Biblia Complutensia. There is an admonition in the Preface regarding the Apocrypha, that the books of Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, the Maccabees, the additions to Esther and Daniel, are not canonical Scripture and were therefore not used by the Church for confirming the authority of any fundamental points of doctrine, though the Church allowed them to be read for purposes of edification.191 B.F. Westcott comments:

At the dawn of the Reformation the great Romanist scholars remained faithful to the judgment of the Canon which Jerome had followed in his translation. And Cardinal Ximenes in the preface to his magnificent Polyglott Biblia Complutensia-the lasting monument of the University which he founded at Complutum or Alcala, and the great glory of the Spanish press-separates the Apocrypha from the Canonical books. The books, he writes, which are without the Canon, which the Church receives rather for the edification of the people than for the establishment of doctrine, are given only in Greek, but with a double translation

http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/Apocrypha3.html


36 posted on 09/14/2013 7:48:28 AM PDT by bkaycee (John 3:16)
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To: bkaycee

Thanks bkaycee; unlike Gamecock’s useless and wilfully ignorant rants, you posted something useful which spurred me onto further research.

I googled your first paragraph and found you verbatim pasted from http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/Apocrypha3.html. That in turn cited, A General History of the Canon of the New Testament by Westcott, without actually quoting the preface. That’s where it gets interesting:

Ximines, like JErome, was interested in converting the Jews. As such, he expressed the same concern as Jerome, using the same language as Jerome. His contemporaries, on the same project, were more careful to clarify Ximines’ language: (emphasis mine): The books which are without the canon OF THE HEBREWS, which the Church reads for edification, are given only in Greek.” Hence, were they separated from the rest of Ximinez’ Hexalpa. This is why Hexalpas have several times separated the deuterocanonicals: Because they did not have the Jewish versions of the deueterocanonicals at hand, since they were rejected by the Jews.

Now why would a book about the New Testament canon go to such lengths about the Old TEstament canon? Because the same sources also note the same thing about the New Testament deuterocanonicals: Ximines< Jerome and Luther also describe the 2-3 Peter, 1-2 John, Revelations, James and Hebrews as “not for establishing doctrine, but for the purpose of edification within the Churches.” Did Ximines and Jerome really mean to exclude seven books of the PROTESTANT canon from the bible? Luther thought so. A better explanation is that they don’t preach the proof of the resurrection from OT scripture, so they are not helpful for the conevrsions of the Jews, but they are helpful to instruct those who have already accepted Christ.

Another who took the same interpretation as Luther was Erasmus. And, of course, from Germanophones, we get the infamous 19th-century Quelle school of biblical criticism which ended up throwing out nearly the entire bible, from which all sorts of anti-Christian “Christian” scholarship has flowed (the Jesus seminar, etc.)


37 posted on 09/14/2013 11:39:45 AM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus
You’re worse than stupid, Harley, you’re willfully ignorant.

Thank you for those kind words. I assume you were led by the Spirit to make those remarks.

38 posted on 09/14/2013 2:04:13 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

What, Christians can’t call anyone willfully ignorant, now? How PCUSA of you, HarleyD... almost Episcopalian!


39 posted on 09/17/2013 7:00:52 AM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

LOL!!! Now THAT’S an INSULT. ;O)


40 posted on 09/17/2013 4:51:21 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: Gamecock

So the Macabees were written in the 2nd century?

Don’t think so.


41 posted on 09/17/2013 4:58:59 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: HarleyD

Wear it with pride, considering the source.


42 posted on 09/17/2013 5:04:11 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor

43 posted on 09/17/2013 5:21:39 PM PDT by HarleyD
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