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Theology Adrift: The Early Church Fathers and Their Views of Eschatology
Bible.Org ^ | March 10, 2012 | Matthew Allen

Posted on 09/12/2013 4:22:27 AM PDT by imardmd1

In 1962, philosopher-scientist Thomas Kuhn coined the term “paradigm shift” to signal a massive change in the way a community thinks about a particular topic. Examples of paradigm shifts include Copernicus’s discovery that the earth revolves around the sun, Einstein’s theory of relativity, and Darwin’s theory of evolution. Each changed the world of thought (some for better, some for worse) in a fundamental way.

From a political perspective, Constantine’s Edict of Milan, issued in AD 313, constituted the formal beginning of a major paradigm shift that signaled the end of the ancient world and the beginning of the medieval period. That edict legitimated Christianity and impressed upon it the Empire’s stamp of approval.

(snip)

It is a fair question to ask: “Why do we care about the eschatological views of the early church fathers?” We as evangelicals emphatically agree with Hodge that “the true method of theology… assumes that the Bible contains all the facts or truths which form the contents of theology.” As Ryrie cogently put it:

The fact that something was taught in the first century does not make it right (unless taught in the canonical Scriptures), and the fact that something was not taught until the nineteenth century does not make it wrong unless, of course, it is unscriptural.

(snip)

From a theological perspective—specifically an eschatological one—the Edict of Milan also signaled a monumental paradigm shift—from the well-grounded premillennialism of the ancient church fathers to the amillennialism or postmillennialism that would dominate eschatological thinking from the fourth century AD to at least the middle part of the nineteenth century. Yet, as explored below, the groundwork for this shift was laid long before Constantine issued the Edict of Milan in AD 313. In the two centuries that led up to the edict, two crucial interpretive errors found their way into the church that made conditions ripe for the paradigm shift incident to the Edict of Milan. The second century fathers failed to keep clear the biblical distinction between Israel and the church. Then, the third century fathers abandoned a more-or-less literal method of interpreting the Bible in favor of Origen’s allegorical-spiritualized hermeneutic. Once the distinction between Israel and the church became blurred, once a literal hermeneutic was lost, with these foundations removed, the societal changes occasioned by the Edict of Milan caused fourth century fathers to reject premillennialism in favor of Augustinian amillennialism.

(snip)

The crushing blow for premillennialism came with the Edict of Milan in AD 313, by which Constantine reversed the Roman Empire’s policy of hostility toward Christianity and accorded it full legal recognition and even favor. Historian Paul Johnson calls the issuance of this edict “one of the decisive events in world history. With it, no longer was the blood of the martyrs the seed of the church. Rather, Christianity would be, in many ways, a mirror-image of the empire itself. “It was catholic, universal, ecumenical, orderly, international, multi-racial and increasingly legalistic.” It was a huge force for stability. Hence, Christianity after 313 would become worldly, rather than other-worldly.

The church’s new-found favor from Rome caused dramatic upheavals. Jerome complained that “one who was yesterday a catechumen is today a bishop; another moves overnight from the ampitheatre to the church; a man who spent the evening in the circus stands next morning at the altar, and another who was recently a patron of the stage is now the dedicator of virgins.” He wrote that “our walls glitter with gold, and gold gleams upon our ceilings and the capitals of our pillars; yet Christ is dying at our doors in the person of his poor, naked and hungry.”

Thus, the focus of the church changed from looking for ultimate comfort in the world beyond the grave to seeking comfort in this world, in the here and now. Christianity was viewed as “a religion with a glorious past as well as an unlimited future. As a result, it suffered what Johnson called “a receding, indeed, disappearing, eschatology.”

(snip)

The lesson for us is that we must continually guard against interpreting the Bible according to current events—a point often lost on some of dispensational millennialism’s more popular proponents.

The bottom line, of course, is that we must continually go back to the Scriptures as our only source for “doing theology.” As much as we may respect and admire the early church fathers, or, for that matter, the reformers, the puritans, or a particular modern spiritual leader, we must always remember to be Bereans, checking their conclusions and reasoning against the plumb line of God’s Word. No one could put it more clearly or forcefully than Martin Luther as he boldly and defiantly proclaimed before the Diet of Worms: “Unless I am convicted by Scripture and plain reason—I do not accept the authority of popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other—my conscience is captive to the Word of God… Here I stand, I cannot do otherwise.”


TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: dispensational; eschatology
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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This article pinpoints the event on the historical time line in which the "sacral society" concept quashed the Apostolic New Testament doctrinal view of eschatology for almost two thousand years, due to the many documented errors of the fallible early "church father" theologians. That effect has been partially offset by the effective reintroduction of premillennium doctrine since the mid-1800s and its incorporation in evangelical commentaries and literature.
1 posted on 09/12/2013 4:22:27 AM PDT by imardmd1
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To: imardmd1

This is going to antagonize the anti-sola-scripturists.


2 posted on 09/12/2013 5:24:36 AM PDT by IronJack (=)
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To: IronJack

Bookmark....this ought to be good.....getting the popcorn ready.


3 posted on 09/12/2013 5:32:41 AM PDT by 2nd amendment mama ( www.2asisters.org | Self defense is a basic human right!)
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To: 2nd amendment mama

Yeah, I give this one at least a 1000-post rating.


4 posted on 09/12/2013 5:37:16 AM PDT by smvoice (The 2 greatest days of your life: the day you're born. And the day you discover why.)
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To: imardmd1
". . .reintroductionof premillennium doctrine since the mid-1800s and its incorporation in evangelical commentaries and literature."

ROTFLOL

"Reintroduction" like the reintroduction of a whole new set of books by the "Rat With a Hat" and the writings of Ellen G White that peddle the same set of lies all the other "premillennial" hucksters and gullible sheep peddle.

Anyone who believes His Word was even partially hidden for eighteen hundred years is by definition saying Jesus Christ lied when He said the Holy Spirit would guide His sheep to all Truth and His Church would be a shining city on a hill for all to see.

Sola Yourselfa disguisred as "Scripture Alone" without fail leads to the worship of Self Alone.

5 posted on 09/12/2013 5:50:23 AM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: imardmd1

So the early Church was reliable in telling us what were the books of the Bible but not in telling us what they meant?


6 posted on 09/12/2013 6:01:46 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: 2nd amendment mama

And the opening salvo is fired ...


7 posted on 09/12/2013 6:03:48 AM PDT by IronJack (=)
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To: imardmd1
We as evangelicals emphatically agree with Hodge that “the true method of theology… assumes that the Bible contains all the facts or truths which form the contents of theology.”

At least Hodge admits that this is only an assumption and not based on the Bible itself. Indeed it is anti-Biblical. It is only because our Lord established a teaching church founded upon the apostles that their writings, by their acceptance by the Church, are accorded the status of Scripture.

The fact that something was taught in the first century does not make it right (unless taught in the canonical Scriptures)…

The fact that there are canonical Scriptures is only because the authoritative teaching Church established by Jesus Christ had declared them so.

In the two centuries that led up to the edict, two crucial interpretive errors found their way into the church that made conditions ripe for the paradigm shift incident to the Edict of Milan. The second century fathers failed to keep clear the biblical distinction between Israel and the church. Then, the third century fathers abandoned a more-or-less literal method of interpreting the Bible in favor of Origen’s allegorical-spiritualized hermeneutic.

And by what authority does the author have to declare these errors?

8 posted on 09/12/2013 6:21:19 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: imardmd1

Good read, thanks.


9 posted on 09/12/2013 6:39:16 AM PDT by wmfights
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To: Rashputin

**Sola Yourselfa **

I like that.


10 posted on 09/12/2013 6:58:58 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Petrosius
Ok I will play.

If the Bible is not to be used for authority according the Bible, then why is the Bible authoritative on saying it is not authoritative?

And by what authority do you have to say the author doesn't have authority?

Yes, I am poking the bear. In an odd mood today.

11 posted on 09/12/2013 7:02:21 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Salvation

It’s the final and fatal stage of the heresy of Rabbinical Protestantism Luther built on the heresy of Core and sold to the nobility in his day.


12 posted on 09/12/2013 7:17:12 AM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: IronJack
This is going to antagonize the anti-sola-scripturists.

Because it shows that their whole methodology (of taking credit for what The God Alone has done in progressively revealing, transmitting, and preserving His Infallible Holy Scripture) is false.

13 posted on 09/12/2013 7:37:15 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: redgolum
If the Bible is not to be used for authority according the Bible, then why is the Bible authoritative on saying it is not authoritative?

I never said that the Bible is not to used for authority, only that it is not the only authority.

Yes, I am poking the bear.

We can still be friends.

14 posted on 09/12/2013 7:38:39 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Petrosius
So the early Church was reliable in telling us what were the books of the Bible but not in telling us what they meant?

'Scuse me, but in the beginning there was no "Church" as you term it. There were only churches, each with its own appointed elders of spiritually mature leaders (at first discipled Jews), and owing allegiance and dominion to no other entity than The Risen Christ and The Holy Ghost, Who is the Author of the Preserved Text.

15 posted on 09/12/2013 7:53:03 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: imardmd1

To find later


16 posted on 09/12/2013 7:55:04 AM PDT by Just mythoughts (Jesus said Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.)
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To: imardmd1

>> “From a political perspective, Constantine’s Edict of Milan, issued in AD 313, constituted the formal beginning of a major paradigm shift that signaled the end of the ancient world and the beginning of the medieval period. That edict legitimated Christianity and impressed upon it the Empire’s stamp of approval.” <<

.
Lots of oatmeal there, but essentially all that Conastantine did was use the power of government to outlaw Yeshua’s Way, and replace it with his own dismal Paganism.

Everything that Coinstantine’s church holds is completely contrary to the scriptures that Yeshua constantly quoted when he would say “It is written...”

And no “Church Father” survived into the second century. Paganism and Gnosticism blended together to the point that by the early 4th century there were no church leaders remaining that were sufficiently grounded in the scriptures to offer any resistance to Constantine’s pagans.


17 posted on 09/12/2013 8:08:01 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Petrosius

>> “I never said that the Bible is not to used for authority, only that it is not the only authority.” <<

.
Yes, you papists are always quick to defend Satan’s authority, as codified in the “oral traditions.”
.


18 posted on 09/12/2013 8:11:16 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Petrosius; redgolum
I never said that the Bible is not to used for authority, only that it is not the only authority.

All Protestants recognize other authorities - Sola-scriptura declares the Bible the final authority.

19 posted on 09/12/2013 8:13:26 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: Petrosius

>> “The fact that there are canonical Scriptures is only because the authoritative teaching Church established by Jesus Christ had declared them so.” <<

.
Vomit!

.
The fact that there are canonical scriptures is because Yeshua’s apostles held to the scriptures that Yeshua affirmed in his everyday communication with them.

The illegitimate body that claims to canonize scripture is completely at odds with the scriptures that Yeshua quoted and thereby confirmed.

The last apostle died 1900 yearas ago.


20 posted on 09/12/2013 8:19:11 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Petrosius
The fact that there are canonical Scriptures is only because the authoritative teaching Church established by Jesus Christ had declared them so.

Thhis is, of course, the expected--and incorrect--claim for canonizing writings. Quoting William Webster, another well-spoken observer:

"It is often asserted by Roman Catholic apologists that Protestants must rely on their tradition in order to know which books ought to be included in the Biblical Canon. The argument says that since there nis no 'inspired table of contents' for the Bible, then we are forced into relying upon tradition to dictate which books belong in the Bible, and which books do not. It was the church of Rome, these apologists allege, which determined the canon at the Councils of Hippo (393 A.D.) and Carthage (397 A.D.), and it is only due to this, that Protestants know which books are inspired, and which are not. Consequently, it is the Roman Church which should be submitted to on issues of faith.

The argument of Roman Catholics for the Canon is spurious on a number of counts."

Of these counts, Webster amplifies three which clearly condemn the claim your comment is making. The link to the brief paper is:

http://www.christiantruth.com/articles/canon.html

He concludes his discussion by remarking that, "Rome is guilty of misrepresenting history and the teachings ofthe Reformation and has misinterpreted Scripture. It is a false system which has become corrupted over time, just as the Jewish system did in the Old Testament."

I concur with this, and have experienced the attempt of a syndicate of Romanists here ganging up on to pervert the truths contained in The Holy Words to hinder their recognition demonstrated by exposition, such that a seeker may be turned away, were it possible. However, an army of these detractors cannot argue against a willing Berean armed with Scripture alone, prayed for by others, and boldly making known the mystery of the Gospel.

And by what authority does the author have to declare these errors?

The Truth of Scripture as compared to the duplicitous writings of the fallible "church fathers" that have led their gullible fideists astray.

21 posted on 09/12/2013 8:50:54 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: editor-surveyor
The last apostle died 1900 yearas ago.

a·pos·tle
[uh-pos-uhl]
noun

1. any of the early followers of Jesus who carried the Christian message into the world.
2. ( sometimes initial capital letter ) any of the original 12 disciples called by Jesus to preach the gospel: Simon Peter, the brothers James and John, Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alpheus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot, Judas Iscariot.
3. the first or the best-known Christian missionary in any region or country.
4. Eastern Church . one of the 70 disciples of Jesus.
5. the title of the highest ecclesiastical official in certain Protestant sects.

According to the definition above, most Christians should be apostles. Disciples first, then apostles as one grows in the faith.
22 posted on 09/12/2013 9:18:05 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: imardmd1; Petrosius
Thank you for a water strider's view of the depths of His Truth typical of those who Scripture describes and warns those of us who follow Jesus Christ about.

II Timothy 3:5 "Having an appearance indeed of godliness, but denying the power thereof. Now these avoid."

Continue to worship your own Most High and Holy Self if you like but be prepared to hear, "I never knew you" from the same Jesus Christ who you mock when you twist the words of Jesus Christ Himself to your own destruction in an effort to hide from His promise to found His Church on Peter.

23 posted on 09/12/2013 10:09:04 AM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: editor-surveyor
That edict legitimated Christianity and impressed upon it the Empire’s stamp of approval

Allen's use if the word "Christianity" is ill-fitted to that sentence. He should have used "Christendom instead.

And, regarding the continuance of The Faith, it is my contention that the Galatians took Paul's scolding very seriously, and never followed that line of hypocritical legalism again--that they became the proponents of the Gospel that never bowed/cowed to the so-called theologians of the "catholic" types, and held to the conduct of local autonomous immersionist assemblies governed by strong preaching, the Remembrance Supper, and unfeigned love of the brethren under persecution--the forerunners of thoday's Baptists.

24 posted on 09/12/2013 10:21:39 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: imardmd1
Revelation 3:14-22 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.

“‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

25 posted on 09/12/2013 11:00:08 AM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: IronJack; 2nd amendment mama; smvoice

That didn’t take long. 2nd amendment mama hardly got the popecorn popped.


26 posted on 09/12/2013 11:01:59 AM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: redgolum

27 posted on 09/12/2013 11:03:20 AM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: editor-surveyor; imardmd1
Lots of oatmeal there, but essentially all that Conastantine did was use the power of government to outlaw Yeshua’s Way, and replace it with his own dismal Paganism.

Everything that Coinstantine’s church holds is completely contrary to the scriptures that Yeshua constantly quoted when he would say “It is written...”

Amen !
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
28 posted on 09/12/2013 11:03:56 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your teaching is my delight.)
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To: ShadowAce; editor-surveyor
According to the definition above, most Christians should be apostles. Disciples first, then apostles as one grows in the faith.

But that is not the sense in which the NT writers used for the word *apostle*.

Acts 1:21-22 So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.”

Nobody on the earth today can fit that qualification.

29 posted on 09/12/2013 11:08:52 AM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom

What qualification? “become one with us”? That’s not defining themselves as anything. We should all be apostles—witnesses to His resurrection by His presence in our lives.


30 posted on 09/12/2013 11:13:09 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: imardmd1

It is undeniable that pagan Greek philosophy influenced many of the early church “fathers” - some for the worse. The truth is that God ALWAYS has a remnant that does not bow the knee to Baal/Rome.


31 posted on 09/12/2013 11:14:28 AM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: imardmd1

Oh, yeah. It’s all Constantine’s fault. That gets tiresome.


32 posted on 09/12/2013 11:19:03 AM PDT by Lee N. Field ("You keep using that verse, but I do not think it means what you think it means.")
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To: Rashputin
Continue to worship your own Most High and Holy Self if you like but be prepared to hear, "I never knew you" from the same Jesus Christ who you mock when you twist the words of Jesus Christ Himself to your own destruction in an effort to hide from His promise to found His Church on Peter.

A phony doctrine that would not survive a literal hermeneutic of Matthew 16:8,18-19 and 23-25, where Peter was of little faith, was willing to hear and repeat what he heard of the Devil just as quickly as what The God put in his mind, and was given the diminutive nickname "petros" (masculine Koine word for small stone) whereas Jesus in precise Koine (petra, feminine) referred to the massif escarpment He was standing on as figuratively representing the strength of The Father's pronouncement, unwittingly delivered through Simon bar-Jonah's lips, "Thou art The Anointed One, The Son of The God of the living," the rock-solid foundational truth undergirding the faith of the churches of The Christ.

Peter was not a rock, he was a joke, who denied the Savior six times on the dark before dawn, and had to be scolded by Paul many years later for disciplinary action. And Jesus much later on did, after at first withholding the keys to the Kingdom (not of this earth) from Simon (while he was yet unconverted, see Lk. 22:31-32) who permitted himself to fall into Satan's hands, as the others did not.

But after Peter's confession of conversion at Galilee(Jn. 21:15-19), his failure at "leadership" in the flesh without Jesus or the Holy Ghost as his Counselor on the 10 days between the Ascension and Pentecost, and after the gift of the indwelling Comforter on the Pentecostal first-day-of-the-week assembly (his regeneration, his new birth in The Spirit), Christ did finally give him no other keys for opening the doors to heaven than He has given every other regenerated believer-disciple-priest, that of the command to preach the Gospel of repentance, salvation, and reconciliation with The Father of Lights, The Creator.

Of course I will avoid following the false hope you offer through another gospel. Eh? I've been a joke in my own life, but now I follow The Messiah, The Anointed One, not another frail, fallible, phony fakir.

33 posted on 09/12/2013 11:28:59 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: editor-surveyor
Lots of oatmeal there, but essentially all that Conastantine did was use the power of government to outlaw Yeshua’s Way, and replace it with his own dismal Paganism.

That's right, Constantine found a bunch of pagans, appointed them bishops and all the Christians, after suffering 300 years of persecution, just went along with it. No, the truth is that the bishops of the Church after the Edict of Milan were the same men who were bishops and lead the Church before. And while there were numerous debates about all types of theological issues there were none about the issues that Protestantism would raise 1200 years later. Additionally, writings of the Church Fathers before Constantine show that it was thoroughly Catholic. History just does not support the Protestant fantasy that the real church was somehow replaced by Constantine with a false one.

34 posted on 09/12/2013 11:33:21 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: metmom

OLO...would you like butter on yours....hehehehe


35 posted on 09/12/2013 11:37:20 AM PDT by 2nd amendment mama ( www.2asisters.org | Self defense is a basic human right!)
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To: 2nd amendment mama

OLO = LOL duh...


36 posted on 09/12/2013 11:41:34 AM PDT by 2nd amendment mama ( www.2asisters.org | Self defense is a basic human right!)
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To: editor-surveyor
The fact that there are canonical scriptures is because Yeshua’s apostles held to the scriptures that Yeshua affirmed in his everyday communication with them.

Wrong, because the Apostles wrote additional works that the Church would affirm as Scripture.

The illegitimate body that claims to canonize scripture is completely at odds with the scriptures that Yeshua quoted and thereby confirmed.

Wrong again, because Jesus did not quote from any of the New Testament Scriptures because they were yet to be written. Additionally, when he does quote from the Old Testament it is invariably from the Septuagint whose canon is accepted by the Catholic Church and rejected by the Protestants.

The last apostle died 1900 yearas ago.

And the very first thing that the Apostles did after our Lord ascended to heaven was to fill up the vacancy left by Judas. Paul shows that the early Church was indeed hierarchical with episkopoi, presbyteroi and diakonoi. These offices continue to exist today.

37 posted on 09/12/2013 11:42:15 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: metmom
Nobody on the earth today can fit that qualification.

My belief is that you are correct. An Apostle of the variety you speak has to have been personally called by Jesus, chosen by Him, followed Him personally, taught directly by Him, and sent by Him to preach the gospel to initiate the process of making more disciples. A succession of disciple-taught disciples, yes! A succession of Christ-taught Apostles, no!

38 posted on 09/12/2013 11:43:07 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: imardmd1
'Scuse me, but in the beginning there was no "Church" as you term it. There were only churches, each with its own appointed elders of spiritually mature leaders (at first discipled Jews), and owing allegiance and dominion to no other entity than The Risen Christ and The Holy Ghost, Who is the Author of the Preserved Text.

Perhaps you missed Council of Jerusalem or how Paul is claiming authority over a number of local churches. See Acts.

39 posted on 09/12/2013 11:44:39 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: metmom

“”popecorn”? Freudian slip?


40 posted on 09/12/2013 12:10:21 PM PDT by IronJack (=)
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To: 2nd amendment mama

Yes butter rather than OLeO.


41 posted on 09/12/2013 12:29:41 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Petrosius
Wrong, because the Apostles wrote additional works that the Church would affirm as Scripture.

Are they the ones not preserved by The God (at least two of Paul's to the Corinthians, plus certainly many others), containing fallible impurities that were not meant to be affirmed as Scripture by a fallible Church (like the Vatican, Alexandrian, or Sinatic corrupted codices)? God has preserved the Byzantine/Majority Textform through the churches, a plurality of witnesses.

Wrong again, because Jesus did not quote from any of the New Testament Scriptures because they were yet to be written. Additionally, when he does quote from the Old Testament it is invariably from the Septuagint whose canon is accepted by the Catholic Church and rejected by the Protestants

You have not studied the provenance of the LXX you have, analysis of which shows that it was rewritten by the scholars of Christendom to reflect the Holy Ghost-interpreted Hebrew as written by NT Apostles and prophets. There is no LXX as supposed to exist in Jesus' day, regardless of the myths generated to support one.

And the very first thing that the Apostles did after our Lord ascended to heaven was to fill up the vacancy left by Judas.

A great fleshly-promoted attempt at asserting human-generated repairs of Christ's misjudgment in selecting Judas as a disciple. Matthias fails the "chosen by Christ" test, even during the 40-day interval that the risen Jesus walked with them. And Peter ducked the responsibility for the final choice by creating a lots-based system (obviously agreed to by the candidates) that if the selectee didn't work out, The God would supposedly be accountable, not Peter. Then, Christ doubtlessly already had His eye upon the Gamaliel-trained disciple, His enemy, Saul of Tarsus, whom Peter et cie would never have chosen, but who was Christ's finest apostle entrusted with the mission to the Uncircumcised. Peter's limit as set by the Holy Ghost operating through the Jerusalem church and its policy head Mary's son Jacob (James), was to the Jews, not the Gentiles particularly.

Paul shows that the early Church was indeed hierarchical with episkopoi, presbyteroi and diakonoi. These offices continue to exist today.

All elders or ministers, and also evangelists, pastors, and teachers; but NOT aposteloi nor prophetoi, hm?

42 posted on 09/12/2013 12:31:06 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: IronJack; smvoice

No, it hearkens back to sarcasm on a thread probably a good year ago.

There’s popecorn, sodapope, poperoni pizza, and popesicles.


43 posted on 09/12/2013 12:31:25 PM PDT by metmom ( For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Petrosius
Perhaps you missed Council of Jerusalem or how Paul is claiming authority over a number of local churches. See Acts.

Missed it not. Paul had long ago been selected for it by the Savior, spent 3 1/2 years in Arabia being taught by Him, then spent 11 years in Tarsus preparong in that Roman/Greek cosmopolitan university town studying Gentile culture, then commissioned by his church at Antioch for the missionary effort. Antioch was not subservient to Jerusalem, neither was any other local church. In unity, yes. In submission to Jerusalem, no. Nor was any of the churches arising from Paul's evangelistic efforts.

44 posted on 09/12/2013 12:40:02 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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To: Petrosius

>> “Wrong, because the Apostles wrote additional works that the Church would affirm as Scripture” <<

.
Utter gibberish!

The church does not exist as a visible organized body that could do such things.

When you say ‘church,’ obviously you mean the RCC, but that is about as far from Yeshua’s church as one could possibly get.

New testament ‘scriptures’ are valid only to the extent that they are in full agreement with Torah and Tanakh, and those are what Yeshua gave us to guide us.

The idea that Yeshua quoted from the LXX is folley.

The LXX was injected when the NT writings were translated into Greek, and was done specifically because the Greek translators were not in any way competent in Hebrew language, nor culture, so they punted and substituted the LXX for the actual scriptures. This is solidly proven in the Hebrew mss of Matthew where the actual words of Yeshua are recorded by Matthew who was a true witness.

Of course a catholic will continue in error rather than meet the truth that shatters the house of pagan cards that is catholicism.


45 posted on 09/12/2013 3:10:05 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Petrosius

>> “That’s right, Constantine found a bunch of pagans, appointed them bishops and all the Christians, after suffering 300 years of persecution, just went along with it.” <<

.
No, Constantine slaughtered enough ‘christians’ to get compliance with the survivors. Fear conquers poorly educated and spiritually weak clergy every time.


46 posted on 09/12/2013 3:13:28 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: ShadowAce

I was going by Yeshua’s definition of apostle.
(the one that required him to replace the ill-chosen Mathias with Paul)


47 posted on 09/12/2013 3:16:26 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: imardmd1

>> “And, regarding the continuance of The Faith, it is my contention that the Galatians took Paul’s scolding very seriously, and never followed that line of hypocritical legalism again—that they became the proponents of the Gospel that never bowed/cowed to the so-called theologians of the “catholic” types, and held to the conduct of local autonomous immersionist assemblies governed by strong preaching, the Remembrance Supper, and unfeigned love of the brethren under persecution” <<

.
Yes, except that I suspect that you do not understand that the ‘legalism’ to which Paul objected was not Torah, but the false “oral torah” of the Pharisees of which Paul had been the most excellent paragon until his encounter with Yehova on the Damascus road.

The Galatians that Paul addressed were trying to become Pharisees, much like many of today’s ‘Messianic’ congregations seem to be doing. Paul taught Torah, written on the heart.

>> “the forerunners of today’s Baptists” <<

.
Having been raised in the Baptist church, I can say with certainty that the Baptists reject the scriptures almost as severely as the Papists.

No Cigar!


48 posted on 09/12/2013 3:26:26 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: imardmd1

The Gospels say “ Church. “


49 posted on 09/12/2013 3:31:13 PM PDT by RobbyS (quotes)
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To: imardmd1
Now for the trtuh:

The Time Machine Challenge (Protestants / Catholics / Church Fathers)
The Apostolic Fathers, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus (Ecumenical)
The Early Church Fathers on the Scriptures: Prayer is Answering the Word of God [Ecumenical]
On the Apostolic Fathers
Fathers vs. the Evangelicals
The Early Church Fathers on the Scriptures: These Words are the Word of God [Ecumenical]
The Early Church Fathers on the Scriptures: The Two Meanings of the Bible [Ecumenical]
The Early Church Fathers on the Scriptures: Guide to the Discovery of Scripture [Ecumenical]
The Early Church Fathers on the Scriptures: Every page of the Bible is a Hymn to Christ [Ecumenical]

The Early Church Fathers on the Scriptures: The Four Gospels [Ecumenical]
The Early Church Fathers on the Scriptures: The Scriptures are one book in Christ [Ecumenical]
The Early Church Fathers on Scripture: The Nourishing Bread of Scripture [Ecumenical]
The Early Church Fathers on the Scriptures: Reading Scripture with the Early Church Fathers [Ecumenical]
Fathers of the Church
Abortion and the Early Church [Fathers] (Catholic & Orthodox Caucus)
Why do Catholics always talk about the Early Church Fathers (Apostolic Fathers)?[Ecumenical]
The Church Fathers' Marian Interpretation of the Old Testament (Catholic Caucus)
Writings of the Fathers of the Church
THE CHURCH FATHERS: A DOOR TO ROME (fundamentalist warns saying they sound too Catholic)

Were the Church Fathers Closer to Protestantism Than to Catholicism?
The Faith of Our Fathers
The Early Church Fathers on the Assumption [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
Look to the Church Fathers to Shed Light on Modern Problems, Writes the Pope
Origen: The Privileged Path to Knowing God Is Love
On Origen of Alexandria: He Was a True Teacher (April 25, 2007)
St. Clement of Alexandria: One of the Great Promoters of Dialogue Between Faith and Reason (April 18, 2007)
St. Irenaeus of Lyons: The First Great Theologian of the Church (March 28, 2007)
Early Church Fathers - Worship on Sabbath or Sunday
St. Justin Martyr: He Considered Christianity the “True Philosophy” (March 21, 2007)

Truly a Doctor of Unity (St. Ignatius of Antioch) (March 14, 2007)
On St. Clement of Rome -The Church Has a Sacramental, Not Political Structure (March 7, 2007)
Quotes from the Early Church Fathers
The Early Church Fathers on Baptism - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Contraception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Justification - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Mary’s Perpetual Virginity - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on the Immaculate Conception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Confession / Reconciliation - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on The Real Presence - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

The Early Church Fathers on Intercession of the Saints - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Hell - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on The Primacy of Peter/Rome (Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)
The Early Church Fathers on The Mother of God - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Mary’s Perpetual Virginity - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Salvation Outside the Church [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
The Early Church Fathers on Purgatory - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on Apostolic Succession - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Early Church Fathers on (Oral) Tradition - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
The Early Church Fathers on The Church (Catholic Caucus)
The Early Church Fathers

50 posted on 09/12/2013 3:35:39 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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