Skip to comments.Are We Really Catholic Bashing?
Posted on 09/24/2013 7:08:17 AM PDT by jodyel
Are We Really Catholic Bashing? Mike Gendron
Throughout the last 13 years we have made the Roman Catholic Church our primary mission field. It has been our hearts desire to see Roman Catholics embrace the Lord Jesus Christ as their all-sufficient Savior and enjoy the salvation He sovereignly secured for all who trust Him alone. Needless to say, we have received thousands of letters, e-mails and phone calls from disgruntled, irate, annoyed, threatening or confused Catholics who tell us we are Catholic bashers and do not know anything about their religion. Some are zealous for God, but without biblical knowledge. Others have an unbending loyalty to the Pope and his teachings. We recently received a letter which covers many issues that are usually brought forth when Catholics are confronted with the biblical Gospel. Following is the letter and my response.
Dear Mr. Gendron,
I hope you can open your heart enough to truly hear what Im about to tell you. First, you were not a "hard-core" Catholic. You are like a lot of people who were raised Catholic, who really did not know or understand their faith. I was like you at one time. I was raised Catholic, but did not practice my faith for years. But thanks to the grace of God, the Holy Spirit, and my devout wife, I rediscovered my Catholic faith as an adult. I love my faith and its glorious tradition handed down from Peter and Paul and the Apostles.
Regarding your belief in the Bible alone, who do you believe compiled the Bible? Before the Protestant Reformation, Catholics wrote the only Bibles in existence. The King James Bible and all Protestant Bibles are based on the Catholic Bible, but many words were changed to justify Protestant beliefs. You see, Catholicism was the only game in town for over a thousand years until the Eastern Orthodox Church split with Rome and the Protestant Reformation further splintered Christians. The doctrines of Catholic faith have not significantly changed in 2000 years! Yet Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 11:2 those who "hold fast to traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter". In 2 Thessalonians 3:6 Paul says "Shun any brother who conducts himself not according to tradition they received from us." The Gospel of John 21:25 states that not everything Jesus said was recorded in scripture.
Does being born-again mean that it is open season on Catholics? Is Catholic bashing a requirement for being born-again? Why the constant attacks on Catholicism, an attack on those who receive Christ in the Eucharist on a weekly, or in my case, a daily basis? Do you really believe that if youre Catholic youre going to hell? When it was written that early Christians needed to be "born-again", the target audience was those who were not already baptized. Taken in that context, the need to be born-again does not apply to Catholics since Catholics have already been baptized, and are thus reborn.
A Devout Catholic
Dear Devout Catholic,
I would like to address each one of your points. First, the Catholic Church was not even around to compile the Hebrews Scriptures. The Old Testament was closed 400 years before Christs life, death and resurrection. Furthermore, it was the apostles and the eyewitnesses to the events of Christs first coming who wrote the New Testament, not Catholics. The Roman Catholic Church did not exist in the first century. It can not be the one true church founded by Christ because it does not profess the faith of the apostles. Its teachings and traditions prove, beyond a doubt, that it has departed from the apostolic faith.
Jude warned the early church to contend for the faith against apostates. In verse 4 of his epistle, he wrote, "For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only sovereign and Lord." Jude identifies the apostates by certain characteristics that resemble the Roman Catholic Church. Catholics deny Jesus as the only sovereign and Lord by supplanting His authority with an authority of their own. They have turned the grace of God into a commodity that can be bought, bartered or merited through indulgences and sacraments. They have perverted the Gospel of grace into a gospel of faith plus works. They have denied the supremacy and sovereignty of Christ and given His divine attributes and titles to Mary and the Pope. They have denied the sufficiency of the word and work of Christ. These are just some of the characteristics that would convict the Catholic Church of being apostate not apostolic.
The Roman Catholic Church declares itself to be the church that Jesus started 2000 years ago. It further pronounces that the church never changes its dogmatic teachings. With this in mind we, once again, can examine the teachings of the Catholic Church today and prove they do not resemble the first century church. Nowhere in the New Testament do we see:
Priests offering sacrifices for sins Indulgences remitting punishment for sins Prayers for souls in purgatory Church leaders forbidden to marry Infallible men Salvation dispensed through sacraments Rosaries, scapulars, holy water, crucifixes & statues
You said "the King James Bible and all Protestant Bibles are based on the Catholic Bible, but many words were changed to justify Protestant beliefs." You are incorrect. The King James Bible was translated from the original languages of Scripture (Hebrew and Greek) while the first Roman Catholic Bible, known as the Douay-Rheims Bible was translated from Latin in the 16th century. Needless to say, a translation from the original languages would be much more accurate than a translation from a translation. Furthermore, it is not the King James Bible that departed from the original canon but the Roman Catholic Bible. In 1546 the Council of Trent added the Apocryphal books to the canon in an attempt to justify the doctrine of Purgatory. Jerome rejected them when he was translating the Bible into Latin in 450 because they were never part of the Hebrew canon. The texts include Judith, the Wisdom of Solomon, Tobit, Sirach, Baruch, Maccabees I & II, Esdras I & II, additions to the Book of Esther, the Book of Daniel, and the Prayer of Manasseh.
Have you considered the references to tradition in the New Testament appear mostly as warnings against using them to nullify the word of God or to hold people captive (Mark 7:7-13; Col. 2:8-9). Only three times is tradition used in a positive sense. The few references you cited are exhortation for Christians to follow apostolic traditions. Please note the tense. Each reference is given in the past tense, i.e. the tradition which you were taught, (2 Thes. 2:15); which you have heard (2 Tim. 2:2); and, as I [Paul] delivered them to you (1 Cor. 11:2) Mans tradition, which crept into the church after the apostles, is what we are to earnestly contend against (Jude 3). Followers of Jesus Christ are exhorted to earnestly contend for the faith which was delivered to the saints at the time the last apostle went to glory. "The faith" is made up of the Word of God and the traditions which "were taught" by the apostles. We must contend against other traditions because religious leaders and institutions can become corrupt (Mat. 23). The only assurance to genuine faith is from the objective, infallible Word of God (John 17:17).
You noted that the Gospel of John 21:25 states that not everything Jesus said was recorded in scripture. Do you know why John included what he did in his Gospel? He tells us. "These [things] have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name" (John 20:30-31). Have you believed what John wrote? Unfortunately many Roman Catholics would have been indoctrinated to trust their clergy rather than what is written in the divinely inspired Scriptures. Consider what John has written about the Lord Jesus Christ:
He saves sinners from condemnation (John 3:18, 5:24). He came to give life to those who are spiritually dead in sin (John 14:6). He showed the world the only way to the Father because sinners are lost (John 14:6). He is the personification of truth. To avoid deception we must trust Him (John 14:6). He testifies to the truth. Those who seek the truth listen to Him (John 18:37).
John also answers your questions on being born-again. He wrote: "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13). Please note that those who are born-again "believe in His name." Is it possible for a 7-day old infant to believe or have faith in anything? Please also note that those who are born-again are born of God not of any human initiative. You can not be born-again because you were born into a Christian family, or because of self-will or because of your parents decision to baptize you. It is God who calls and draws those He has chosen (Eph. 1:4; John 6:44; Rom. 8:30). The Bible teaches that anyone (Catholic or non-Catholic) who has not been born-again will not enter the kingdom of God, but instead suffer everlasting torment in the eternal lake of fire.
I do not know why Catholics so often refer to us as Catholic bashers. If we really wanted to bash Catholics we would ignore them and let them march proudly towards an eternity without Christ. It is our love for Catholics and for our Lord that motivates us to be faithful to the great commission. It is our compassion for Catholics that persuades us to proclaim that Jesus Christ is sufficient to save sinners completely and forever, a doctrine that most Catholics deny. And finally it is our desire to exalt our Lord by exposing any teaching or tradition that robs Him of the glory, honor and praise that He alone deserves. It is my prayer that you will come to Jesus with empty hands of faith, bringing nothing but your sins to the cross! Only then will you know the peace of God which surpasses all understanding.
In Gods Grace, Mike Gendron
Protestants becoming Catholics.
Chairs being rearranged on the deck of the Titanic.
Dave Hunt made a great point several years back.
Catholics accuse protestants critical of Catholic teaching of “Catholic bashing.” But criticism of protestant teaching (of which there is plenty) is never considered by them as Protestant bashing. Why?
Funny stuff thank you for posting.
You are wrong about Catholicism: it is the original central branch of Christianity and doesn't need any help from you. We have the strong presence of the Holy Spirit and real sacraments, as given from the hands of Jesus.
If you find yourselves driven to spread the message of the Gospel, I'd recommend going where you are most needed - we have billions of souls who really need that saving message in the Middle East and Asia, so go for it. A tiny bit riskier than annoying the good folks here, but so much more appropriate.
Because to scream "Discrimination!" is the last refuge of someone who lost the argument based on the facts.
” Catholics accuse protestants critical of Catholic teaching of Catholic bashing. But criticism of protestant teaching (of which there is plenty) is never considered by them as Protestant bashing. Why?”
Plenty of disagreement on both sides to go around. Nothing wrong with disagreement or discussion.
However, when it gets to the point of being ugly (again, on either side...and I’m not totally innocent), then it is time to step away from the keyboard.
If we really wanted to bash Catholics we would ignore them and let them march proudly towards an eternity without Christ.Ruh-roh! Then puhleeease start "really" bashing, and leave us the heck alone. (Already received Christ today, received Him yesterday, and will receive Him tomorrow...)
I think that I will continue to pray that we all become ONE as Jesus and the Father are...that the world may see. It is our division and the fighting among ourselves that horribly damages the witness to the world.
“it is the original central branch of Christianity”
Would not the Eastern Orthodox claim the same thing? Things got a little mixed up after the Roman Empire.
WEhat utter and ccomplete nonsense. The ignorance displayed by these two sentences is breath taking! I was going to offer an arguement but my father advised strongly against arguing with fools.
I’ve made that suggestion before. It did not go over well. I didn’t realize we had such a strong anti-Catholic presence here on FR until about three weeks ago, and as a Protestant I was appalled by them. I listed several atrocities that these “Christians” could focus on rather than attacking Catholic doctrine. Every time I made a common sence suggestion, my suggestion was completely ignored. They had no comeback as their hearts are so filled with this strange hatred for other Christians.
But there have been real Catholic-Bashers such as the Ku Klux Klan. So you are saying their arguments are airtight??
That is not a very Christian thing to say.
Anyway, St. Peter was the first Bishop of Rome. The first Pope.
The Catholic Church may well have had the Shroud of Turin which may well be authentic.
This is all apologetics and there are dozens of such sites out there.
Broad Brush, meet BeadCounter.
So you are saying that anyone that offers a Biblical argument against any current Catholic teaching is a KKK member?
It’s the truth. The author is a fool.
As a Catholic, I do not take every criticism of my Church, nor persons of other faiths honestly but starkly pointing out our differences, as “bashing”.
Of course, it sure beats having to do the tough work of being an actual missionary and finding people who do not know Christ.
Much easier to just let someone else do the hard work and then swoop in with some snappy patter.
No, I am saying it because of your original statement:
“Because to scream “Discrimination!” is the last refuge of someone who lost the argument based on the facts. “
But there has been real discrimination against Catholics, that’s all I am saying but you are implying that the argument is lost on facts so Catholics scream discrimination.
Even if one is critical of the Catholic Faith in an unbiased way, in many cases and perhaps not all, it is difficult to totally separate Protestant criticism of Catholicism from the older traditions of “Bible-based” or “Pentecostal” Protestant faiths, your Jimmy Swaggart, John Ankeberg types and so on.
I judge people’s religious advocacy the same way I would any other public behavior: Is it obnoxious or not?
If you are a Protestant determined to save all the Catholics you meet from “damnation,” you are obnoxious. And vice versa.
You want to stick literature under my windshield wiper? Fine. You want to mail me stuff? Fine. Please do make sure your literature doesn’t accuse Catholics of worshiping statues or a Babylonian sun god.
A rule of thumb I would suggest is: Are you (Catholic or Protestant) primarily interested in winning arguments with Protestants or Catholics? If so, stay home.
10 years ago, I’d get into this argument but nowadays, you have websites like CARM (Fundamentally Based), Catholic Apologetics websites, both sides are easy to research on the web now.
I think this point is worthy of further discussion by all.
First off, I believe that aborted babies go to Heaven. Several have said so, but my opinion was shaped by Dr. James Kennedy many years ago who prepared a logical, extensive, and Biblical basis for asserting it. Seems to me a 7 month old fetus is less inclined to confess the Lord Jesus as a result of their own self will than a 7 month old newborn.
Second, in Baptism, the baby is saved by the Grace of God through faith. The faith of the Godparents, according to Catholic teaching. Are there not examples of healing or other miracles in the Bible through the faith of someone other than the healed/saved/cured? I have to go back but I do think it is the case.
Finally, who is really to say what goes through a baby's mind and spirit at or shortly after birth? Who's to say if and how that infant, in their own way, did reach out to God for salvation? After all, God knew him before he was conceived, and God has fearfully and wonderfully made that boy/girl.
Michelle Bachmann grew up WELS, Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, I’ve totally read all of their documents, that is a Conservative Church, very Life Affirming, Male-only Pastors, no radicalism and Christian (vs. say the ELCA, Evangelical Lutheran Church of America)that I see a real common ground between so-called Protestantism and Catholicism.
The list of Popes, starting with Peter.
Aborted babies do go to heaven. No argument there. Children under the age of accountability are saved by grace as well without profession of faith. We can save “the age of accountability discussion for another time.”
I liked Dr. Kennedy very much and listened to him often.
There is no need for a baby to be baptized. Since they are not old enough to understand what salvation is and how it is given, they have need of nothing but grace (just like everyone else)....even if they do not know it and are not old enough to understand it. The same applies for those that are mentally handicapped and not capable of understanding. Babies and others not capable of a profession of faith are not held to accountability as are those who can understand and reason.
Many times I hear people ask “Who is to say?” “Who is to know?”
My answer is “the Bible.” And whether you believe what it says or not.
God bless you, Michael.
You may feel free not to read, or participate, in this thread at any time, Arthur.
We are not holding a gun to anyone’s head to believe as we do. We are here to offer the simple offer of salvation thru Jesus Christ to any and all who truly desire it.
If your desire is for religion, then you won’t find much here to interest you, be you Protestant or Catholic.
My post to arthur mcgowan is good for you too, wideawake.
Go your way.
Go your way.You do realize, jodyel, that when you put up a thread like this, you are ASKING for Catholics to respond, so by sending them on their way, who is this thread really meant for?
It seems to me that is the general consensus of the Catholics on this forum....that we “Protestants” want to bash them continually.
For myself, I care neither if you are Protestant or Catholic or Mormon or whatever....I come to speak of Jesus and the gift of salvation thru Him and Him alone.
If your religion is what you want, then go your way and listen no more. If Jesus is what you truly want, then I am happy to have you here.
Thanks for posting, buckeye.
Go your way then, SPV.
And god bless you.
Then go your own way, mlizzy.
Still love ya though!
Write Mike Gendron, the author of the article, and ask him.
Thank you for posting.
Then go your own way.
God bless you,
Then go your own way, Brian.
No idea, fwdude.
Wish I did but then I don’t advocate Catholic or Protestant. Maybe that is the difference?
Thank you for posting, bear.
She was raised Pentecostal and I was raised Catholic. We had some wonderful conversations about our faith.
She had always been told how Catholicism was of the devil, but she loved me and always treated me with respect.
Towards the end of her life she said to me that she finally realized that we were not all that different in our love of Jesus.
A friend of hers gave her a crucifix which she cherished.
She didn't become Catholic and I never became Pentecostal, but that doesn't matter.
I have never met anyone who was as clearly as holy as she was in her daily life.
At the end of her life she was nearly blind and very hard of hearing, but she thanked God that she had no physical pain.
Her one goal was to see the face of Jesus.
I have no doubt at all that she succeeded.
I’ve read some of the letters Mike has posted from Catholics on his site and, while not quite as vitriolic as what goes on here, they certainly do not like what he has to say.
Thank you for posting.
She sounds a wonderful example of faith, Slyfox.
I am not here to advocate for Catholic or Protestant...just Jesus.
Thanks for sharing the lovely story and god bless you.
I received Him ONCE for all time.
Deuteronomy 31:6 KJV
Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the Lord thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.
Deuteronomy 4:31 KJV
(For the Lord thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
Deuteronomy 31:8 KJV
And the Lord, he it is that doth go before thee; he will be with thee, he will not fail thee, neither forsake thee: fear not, neither be dismayed.
Joshua 1:5 KJV
There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.
1 Chronicles 28:20 KJV
And David said to Solomon his son, Be strong and of good courage, and do it: fear not, nor be dismayed: for the Lord God, even my God, will be with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee, until thou hast finished all the work for the service of the house of the Lord.
Psalm 37:28 KJV
For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
Then go your own way, mlizzy.That doesn't answer my question. Doh!
“Chairs being rearranged on the deck of the Titanic.”
Christianity is not sinking. It can’t. He promised.