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To: Heart-Rest
Jesus has the power to make humans see whatever Jesus wants them to see, in order to serve some purpose, such as, in the case of the Holy Eucharist, exercising their faith in order to strengthen it.

That's where the proof of your proof text falls apart...

Your religion is very specific when it makes the claim that the bread and wine have the exact same characteristics before and after...

Jesus doesn't make any of you see flesh and blood...You see bread and wine...

just like you don't believe Jesus when He said, "This is my body."

I certainly do believe Jesus said that...Just as I believe he said, no one will hunger again after they come to him...I also believe both of those statements were spiritual, not physical...

24 posted on 09/27/2013 2:41:57 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: Iscool
When did the belief that the the Real Presence was NOT true begin?

Not talking transubstitution, which has a hard date when it was explicitly defined, but the real presence of Body and Blood of Jesus in Communion.

Christians from the earliest days believed that communion had the Real Presence of the Body and Blood in the bread and wine.

28 posted on 09/27/2013 5:42:52 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Iscool
"I certainly do believe Jesus said that...Just as I believe he said, no one will hunger again after they come to him...I also believe both of those statements were spiritual, not physical..."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Do you believe that, for OUR sake, God often makes use of physical things in order to effect a spiritual benefit?

For example, are the waters of baptism real, physical water (not invisible, undetectable "spiritual water"), and do the waters of baptism appear to all human senses exactly as any other water one might swim in, or take a bath in?    Does God use that ordinary water to perform an extraordinary spiritual transformation in a person, even though the water appears to be just ordinary physical water to our limited physical human senses the entire time -- before, during, and after the baptism?

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.    John 3:5
Likewise, does God desire to make use of our ordinary, physical human bodies to fulfill the magnificently extraordinary spiritual function of being a "temple of the Holy Spirit"?
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God?    You are not your own; you were bought with a price.    So glorify God in your body.    1 Corinthians 6:19-20
Of course all these actions involve both the physical dimension and the spiritual dimension, and that spiritual dimension CANNOT be seen with our physical eyes, but must be perceived with our "eyes of faith".    This is what God desires (for our limited human sakes), whether one understands and believes it or not.    That is why God set up the celebration of the Holy Eucharist in the way that He did -- for our limited, human sakes.

Thank God for such a beautiful gift.

29 posted on 09/27/2013 6:20:16 AM PDT by Heart-Rest (Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Gal 6:7)
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